Author Topic: Evidence Sheila was docile/uncoordinated just before being shot:  (Read 7125 times)

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Offline Jane

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Re: Evidence Sheila was docile/uncoordinated just before being shot:
« Reply #120 on: April 04, 2022, 01:12:PM »
When you have the last man standing, it isn't hard to arrive at the simplest of conclusions.


And just the tiniest seed of doubt. Once it's there, they'd have to run with it.

Offline lookout

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Re: Evidence Sheila was docile/uncoordinated just before being shot:
« Reply #121 on: April 04, 2022, 01:12:PM »

With practice gained, they were entitled to have reached reasoned conclusions -we all do it- based on training and experience. It certainly sounds as if more believed him guilty, after being in conversation with him, than innocent.





A lot would have depended on the conversation I think, but sadly like most accusatory conversations and thoughts at the time it was very one-sided and remained the same throughout the case, literally based upon hearsay of others but without the concrete evidence to convict him. Friends and family had acted as judge and jury simply because there was no evidence to prove his guilt other than nobody liked him.

Offline Roch

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Re: Evidence Sheila was docile/uncoordinated just before being shot:
« Reply #122 on: April 04, 2022, 01:43:PM »

Well, they're dead, for starters. Are you familiar with the area, Rob? JB knew it intimately. The chances of him taking a route where being seen was a possibility is rather like looking for a hen with teeth. All villains have to take some chances, murderers who've planned it, more than most. However, I'll allow that he may have had a bit of a wobble about whether he's adequately covered his tracks and broken out in a cold sweat. It's good that you're accepting there'd have been more to it than casually getting washed, brushed up and changed.

Did you listen to Barbara De'Ath's podcast interview. She poured a lot of scorn on the notion of cycling over the coastal wall and the fields in that era. There were divvets a plenty. And in the dark, across the divvets, with that bike?
« Last Edit: April 04, 2022, 01:51:PM by Roch »

Offline Jane

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Re: Evidence Sheila was docile/uncoordinated just before being shot:
« Reply #123 on: April 04, 2022, 01:57:PM »
Did you listen to Barbara De'Ath's podcast interview. She poured a lot of scorn on the notion of cycling over the costal wall and the fields in that era. There were divvets a plenty. And in the dark, across the divvets, with that bike?


I didn't, Roch, but I've read what she had to say and there certainly appears to have been an axe to grind re the site fees/moving of an aging caravan? I suspect she isn't a local and Osea is a long way from Goldhanger and even further from WHF. I suspect she has never made such a journey, at least not by bike, and definitely not on foot. I think JB was in his late teens at the times she holidayed there.

Offline Roch

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Re: Evidence Sheila was docile/uncoordinated just before being shot:
« Reply #124 on: April 04, 2022, 03:01:PM »

I didn't, Roch, but I've read what she had to say and there certainly appears to have been an axe to grind re the site fees/moving of an aging caravan? I suspect she isn't a local and Osea is a long way from Goldhanger and even further from WHF. I suspect she has never made such a journey, at least not by bike, and definitely not on foot. I think JB was in his late teens at the times she holidayed there.

I advise you should give it a listen. Even if she had an axe to grind (which is debatable), I doubt that could influence her opinion of how they land lay in terms of geography. She also provides an interesting anecdote about Mr Ainsley.

Offline mike tesko

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Re: Evidence Sheila was docile/uncoordinated just before being shot:
« Reply #125 on: April 04, 2022, 03:20:PM »
Mike I believe the person from whom you retrieved these documents has falsified them for his or her own purposes.

No, they did not, 'Lee' and 'Ian' were good people, who used to visit Jeremy regularly every fortnight or so at HMP Full Sutton, nr York. There was nothing sinister about the way I got access to a lot of documents from them. The documents had been stored in their garage, and they needed the space because they intended to turn the garage into living quarters for their daughter, who was pregnant. So, they either had to find someone who Jeremy could trust, or the only other alternative, was for the documents to be taken to HMP Full Sutton, and be placed in storage under private property of an inmate rules. However, 'Jeremys' application to allow this to happen, was turned down by the governor and security staff, on the basis that it was too big a consignment and their was insufficient space in reception in which to store them! As a result, I was asked to take possession of all the documents, which at first I was a bit hesitant to do so. In the end, however, only because if I didn't take responsibility for it all, it would all be thrown away into one of the skips located at a local 'dump-it' site in the Colchester area..

So, I agreed to become the guardian of all files belonging to 'Jeremys case', on the proviso that once the property was in my possession that 'Jeremy' could not ask me for the lot back. I agreed to send him, copies of any documents which I thought might be helpful to his cause, which when all the dust had settled, is what I did on a regular basis. There is nothing dodgy about any of the statements, documents or anything, just that most of the material contained in many statements, diagrams, and reports, had not previously disclosed to 'Jeremy' or those representing his interests at trial...
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline Rob_

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Re: Evidence Sheila was docile/uncoordinated just before being shot:
« Reply #126 on: April 04, 2022, 03:28:PM »

Well, they're dead, for starters. Are you familiar with the area, Rob? JB knew it intimately. The chances of him taking a route where being seen was a possibility is rather like looking for a hen with teeth. All villains have to take some chances, murderers who've planned it, more than most. However, I'll allow that he may have had a bit of a wobble about whether he's adequately covered his tracks and broken out in a cold sweat. It's good that you're accepting there'd have been more to it than casually getting washed, brushed up and changed.

Actually very few villains take unnecessary chances Jane, and very few would plan a crime and carry it out in such a way that there are only two suspects and they were one of them!

As for getting around at night without lights it's very difficult, because of my job I have been caught out several times so I know.






Offline Jane

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Re: Evidence Sheila was docile/uncoordinated just before being shot:
« Reply #127 on: April 04, 2022, 04:17:PM »
Did you listen to Barbara De'Ath's podcast interview. She poured a lot of scorn on the notion of cycling over the coastal wall and the fields in that era. There were divvets a plenty. And in the dark, across the divvets, with that bike?

Well Roch! What can I say? The podcast was no different from the blog, other that the intervention of a man, and a woman with a smoker's voice. From the CT, I assume.

I took notes so I wouldn't forget, but the main thrust, as I said previously, seems to be about a grudge held because they were asked to move their caravan back from the sea wall and "placed among the mozzies" and "they didn't want riff-raff like us" because "they wanted the site to be gentrified". This appears to have been of greater interest to her than talking about JB, a subject to which she frequently had to be bought back, spending the first 20 or so minutes talking about the site and their eventual decision, in the late 80's, to leave it, having not visited for several years.

She claims to have had, after purchasing the van in 82/83 -only two years before the tragedy and working full time- overnights and weekends there, rather than long holidays. It's very doubtful that there were that many occasions when JB was there. "Hardworking, industrious, shy"? Perhaps they weren't his type?

They make interesting sport of talking about the inaccessibility of taking a bike along the towpath, claiming it to be busy, cluttered with fishing chairs, people having barbeques!!, and a clutter of ducks, geese and insects inhibiting his ride. They claimed it as being too hot, too windy and too stony! Dear God, these pathetic town-dwellers!! I doubt that one of them tried it at the time JB would have been abroad. Too scared of the wild life, perhaps? Certainly not speaking about a night time trip. Their only references had them walking in the direction of Goldhanger from Osea, which is nowhere close to -in fact, opposite to- the route JB would have taken.

Ainsley? She felt intimidated. Did she? He threatened her? REALLY?!!! She then goes on to talk about the East End roots she's clearly proud of and how they never trusted police.

I'm not certain how she knows that many people left. It certainly doesn't seem to have harmed the business by it "gentrification". It's now a far remove from the one set up by Mabel Speakman to provide down time for their workers -presumably non profit making?- and has expanded into an award winning site. We have no way of knowing what would have become of it had it been in JB's hands.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2022, 06:55:PM by Jane »

Offline Roch

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Re: Evidence Sheila was docile/uncoordinated just before being shot:
« Reply #128 on: April 04, 2022, 09:04:PM »
Well Roch! What can I say? The podcast was no different from the blog, other that the intervention of a man, and a woman with a smoker's voice. From the CT, I assume.

I took notes so I wouldn't forget, but the main thrust, as I said previously, seems to be about a grudge held because they were asked to move their caravan back from the sea wall and "placed among the mozzies" and "they didn't want riff-raff like us" because "they wanted the site to be gentrified". This appears to have been of greater interest to her than talking about JB, a subject to which she frequently had to be bought back, spending the first 20 or so minutes talking about the site and their eventual decision, in the late 80's, to leave it, having not visited for several years.

She claims to have had, after purchasing the van in 82/83 -only two years before the tragedy and working full time- overnights and weekends there, rather than long holidays. It's very doubtful that there were that many occasions when JB was there. "Hardworking, industrious, shy"? Perhaps they weren't his type?

They make interesting sport of talking about the inaccessibility of taking a bike along the towpath, claiming it to be busy, cluttered with fishing chairs, people having barbeques!!, and a clutter of ducks, geese and insects inhibiting his ride. They claimed it as being too hot, too windy and too stony! Dear God, these pathetic town-dwellers!! I doubt that one of them tried it at the time JB would have been abroad. Too scared of the wild life, perhaps? Certainly not speaking about a night time trip. Their only references had them walking in the direction of Goldhanger from Osea, which is nowhere close to -in fact, opposite to- the route JB would have taken.

Ainsley? She felt intimidated. Did she? He threatened her? REALLY?!!! She then goes on to talk about the East End roots she's clearly proud of and how they never trusted police.

I'm not certain how she knows that many people left. It certainly doesn't seem to have harmed the business by it "gentrification". It's now a far remove from the one set up by Mabel Speakman to provide down time for their workers -presumably non profit making?- and has expanded into an award winning site. We have no way of knowing what would have become of it had it been in JB's hands.

Fair play to you for listening. I enjoyed reading your irreverent assessment. By irreverent, I mean humorous.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2022, 09:05:PM by Roch »

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Re: Evidence Sheila was docile/uncoordinated just before being shot:
« Reply #129 on: April 05, 2022, 01:40:AM »
Actually very few villains take unnecessary chances Jane, and very few would plan a crime and carry it out in such a way that there are only two suspects and they were one of them!

As for getting around at night without lights it's very difficult, because of my job I have been caught out several times so I know.

Criminals do take chances, necessary and unnecessary.  They have to take some chances, due to the nature of what they do, and they may take unnecessary chances, due to their own reckless nature, which is why they are criminals in the first place.  Jeremy had a reckless nature.  Under the right environmental influences, this could have been put to constructive ends: he was probably not aptly fitted for a conservative vocation like farming, but might have found a legitimate trade, profession or vocation that played to his grasshopper nature and recklessness.  Instead, Jeremy came under the wrong influences and this came to its head in March 1985, when he broke into the site office at Osea Road and stole money.  According to the prosecution case, in words echoed by Maurice Drake at sentencing, Jeremy knew he would come under suspicion for the burglary, but also calculated that his involvement could not be proved.  He took the chance.  Similarly, during cross-examination by Anthony Arlidge, Q.C., it is claimed that Jeremy said: "That is for you to establish".  From one point of view, you can see here a consistent thread of thought, which is a reliance on not being caught, which is quite common to the criminal mentality.

Indeed, criminality often operates pragmatically in the grey area of 'reasonable doubt'.  "Say nowt".  "They can't prove it".  "Stick to your story".  Etc., etc.

The criminal may think that he will not be caught or that detection is improbable.  To be fair, detection is improbable from a generalised statistical point-of-view.  Most crimes go undetected, often not even noticed.  On that point, it's interesting that Jeremy carried out the Osea Road burglary in such a manner that it would be noticed.  He had staged it in the hope that people would lazily conclude it was an outside job, but he clearly did it this way because otherwise he knew that suspicion would be on him immediately if such a large sum of money were to go missing all at once without an apparent explanation.  The staging of a burglary was crude psychology: an attempt to divert focus, but it didn't work.  Jeremy would not have seen it as 'taking a chance', as such, but as part of his plan.  He did not want to be caught, but knew he would eventually be suspected and relied on the grey area of doubt to see him through.

Turning to the shootings a few months later, if Jeremy is guilty, then he engineered a spectacle outside the farmhouse for the purpose of establishing an alibi.  In contrast to the burglary, here he needs to make it look like an inside job.  It's no good if the police start developing doubts and thinking it could have been somebody from outside.  He believed that the police would enter the farmhouse, find everybody dead, and conclude that Sheila had shot everybody and herself while he was outside with the police.  Indeed, this was the police conclusion.  Engineering this required a number of things.  For instance, he needed to enter and exit the farmhouse undetected and without leaving forensic traces.  He needed to ring the police himself, so that he would be at the scene.  This meant he needed Nevill to ring him, not the police.  This involved taking a risk, which was that he would be making himself the centre of police attention, but the risk was acceptable to Jeremy because the plan involved many different steps and fail-safes that would divert police suspicion away from him, of which the phone call was just one element.  Putting the rifle on Sheila's body after shooting her in the main bedroom was analogous to the conspicuous burglary of the Osea Road site office: it was another a diversion of focus, crude but clever psychology.
 
However, this is where we come to the first fundamental problem with the prosecution case.  There is a problem of logic with this scenario: if the phone is downstairs, how does he get Nevill downstairs?  Surely Sheila would kill everybody while they are still in bed?  Hence, no phone call, hence Jeremy could be guilty, but maybe she wouldn't have had the chance, and Jeremy is still left with the problem that the phone call has to be made.  Maybe there is an argument downstairs first? But how does Jeremy ensure Nevill is downstairs rather than in bed?  Isn't it risky to allow Nevill to run downstairs?  How does he know Nevill will run downstairs?  What if Nevill struggles with him upstairs?  What then?  And why was there a struggle with Nevill downstairs, but not upstairs?  The prosecution may say it is because Nevill was drawing fire from the women and boys, but how does Nevill know Jeremy will follow him and not just shoot him or, if out of ammunition, knock him out with the rifle stock?  And if he shoots Nevill upstairs, will the police accept that a phone call was made from downstairs first?  Maybe what happened is that Jeremy pushed the rifle into Nevill's back and Nevill complied and went downstairs?  But if that is what happened, then where is Sheila at this stage?  Does the prosecution case depend on her being asleep?  We now have somebody in the guilt camp telling us she 'mentally' froze (as opposed to physically), but presumably this is when she is accosted by Jeremy.  What is she doing in the meantime?  Just sleeping?  If she is sleeping, does she never wake?  If she wakes, a whole host of other questions enter the picture.  Maybe Nevill was downstairs all along and Jeremy incapacitated him first? Perhaps after shooting at him from the stair landing, hence the blood on the kitchen door jamb.

We can see immediately that the initial conclusion of Essex Police, the belief Sheila was the killer, has something important to commend it: it accords with Occam's razor in that it is the conclusion of the fewest parts. She is severely mentally-ill.  She is found with the rifle.  All the doors and windows are secure.  To make Jeremy the killer, we have jump through lots of hoops, answering lots of different questions and solving riddles and problems.  These questions, and others, and various problems with the evidence, in my view must lead to a position of reasonable doubt about Jeremy's legal guilt, which means that if he is factually guilty, his plan came dangerously close to succeeding and was only foiled by the doubts of one or two detectives, prompted by the observation of certain highly-subjective and contestable behavioural clues in the aftermath, the evidence of Julie Mugford (to whom he told everything), and the failure of the majority of the trial jury to observe the law and apply the correct standard of proof.  Some people will dispute this of course and say that the majority jury decision was correct given the evidence of Julie Mugford.  Why did Jeremy take the huge risk of telling her everything?  Maybe for the reason I allude to above: he thought that his plan had worked and part of him needed to tell somebody, and Julie was his confederate in crime and close confidant.  He was a criminal.  He had committed a burglary and was a drug dealer and trafficker of drugs, and according to Liz Rimington, he had floated the idea of burgling houses in Goldhanger.  Criminals are reckless and make flawed decisions.  That's why they are criminals.  Maybe that's all there is to it?

Offline Adam

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Re: Evidence Sheila was docile/uncoordinated just before being shot:
« Reply #130 on: April 05, 2022, 05:43:AM »
Criminals do take chances, necessary and unnecessary.  They have to take some chances, due to the nature of what they do, and they may take unnecessary chances, due to their own reckless nature, which is why they are criminals in the first place.  Jeremy had a reckless nature.  Under the right environmental influences, this could have been put to constructive ends: he was probably not aptly fitted for a conservative vocation like farming, but might have found a legitimate trade, profession or vocation that played to his grasshopper nature and recklessness.  Instead, Jeremy came under the wrong influences and this came to its head in March 1985, when he broke into the site office at Osea Road and stole money.  According to the prosecution case, in words echoed by Maurice Drake at sentencing, Jeremy knew he would come under suspicion for the burglary, but also calculated that his involvement could not be proved.  He took the chance.  Similarly, during cross-examination by Anthony Arlidge, Q.C., it is claimed that Jeremy said: "That is for you to establish".  From one point of view, you can see here a consistent thread of thought, which is a reliance on not being caught, which is quite common to the criminal mentality.

Indeed, criminality often operates pragmatically in the grey area of 'reasonable doubt'.  "Say nowt".  "They can't prove it".  "Stick to your story".  Etc., etc.

The criminal may think that he will not be caught or that detection is improbable.  To be fair, detection is improbable from a generalised statistical point-of-view.  Most crimes go undetected, often not even noticed.  On that point, it's interesting that Jeremy carried out the Osea Road burglary in such a manner that it would be noticed.  He had staged it in the hope that people would lazily conclude it was an outside job, but he clearly did it this way because otherwise he knew that suspicion would be on him immediately if such a large sum of money were to go missing all at once without an apparent explanation.  The staging of a burglary was crude psychology: an attempt to divert focus, but it didn't work.  Jeremy would not have seen it as 'taking a chance', as such, but as part of his plan.  He did not want to be caught, but knew he would eventually be suspected and relied on the grey area of doubt to see him through.

Turning to the shootings a few months later, if Jeremy is guilty, then he engineered a spectacle outside the farmhouse for the purpose of establishing an alibi.  In contrast to the burglary, here he needs to make it look like an inside job.  It's no good if the police start developing doubts and thinking it could have been somebody from outside.  He believed that the police would enter the farmhouse, find everybody dead, and conclude that Sheila had shot everybody and herself while he was outside with the police.  Indeed, this was the police conclusion.  Engineering this required a number of things.  For instance, he needed to enter and exit the farmhouse undetected and without leaving forensic traces.  He needed to ring the police himself, so that he would be at the scene.  This meant he needed Nevill to ring him, not the police.  This involved taking a risk, which was that he would be making himself the centre of police attention, but the risk was acceptable to Jeremy because the plan involved many different steps and fail-safes that would divert police suspicion away from him, of which the phone call was just one element.  Putting the rifle on Sheila's body after shooting her in the main bedroom was analogous to the conspicuous burglary of the Osea Road site office: it was another a diversion of focus, crude but clever psychology.
 
However, this is where we come to the first fundamental problem with the prosecution case.  There is a problem of logic with this scenario: if the phone is downstairs, how does he get Nevill downstairs?  Surely Sheila would kill everybody while they are still in bed?  Hence, no phone call, hence Jeremy could be guilty, but maybe she wouldn't have had the chance, and Jeremy is still left with the problem that the phone call has to be made.  Maybe there is an argument downstairs first? But how does Jeremy ensure Nevill is downstairs rather than in bed?  Isn't it risky to allow Nevill to run downstairs?  How does he know Nevill will run downstairs?  What if Nevill struggles with him upstairs?  What then?  And why was there a struggle with Nevill downstairs, but not upstairs?  The prosecution may say it is because Nevill was drawing fire from the women and boys, but how does Nevill know Jeremy will follow him and not just shoot him or, if out of ammunition, knock him out with the rifle stock?  And if he shoots Nevill upstairs, will the police accept that a phone call was made from downstairs first?  Maybe what happened is that Jeremy pushed the rifle into Nevill's back and Nevill complied and went downstairs?  But if that is what happened, then where is Sheila at this stage?  Does the prosecution case depend on her being asleep?  We now have somebody in the guilt camp telling us she 'mentally' froze (as opposed to physically), but presumably this is when she is accosted by Jeremy.  What is she doing in the meantime?  Just sleeping?  If she is sleeping, does she never wake?  If she wakes, a whole host of other questions enter the picture.  Maybe Nevill was downstairs all along and Jeremy incapacitated him first? Perhaps after shooting at him from the stair landing, hence the blood on the kitchen door jamb.

We can see immediately that the initial conclusion of Essex Police, the belief Sheila was the killer, has something important to commend it: it accords with Occam's razor in that it is the conclusion of the fewest parts. She is severely mentally-ill.  She is found with the rifle.  All the doors and windows are secure.  To make Jeremy the killer, we have jump through lots of hoops, answering lots of different questions and solving riddles and problems.  These questions, and others, and various problems with the evidence, in my view must lead to a position of reasonable doubt about Jeremy's legal guilt, which means that if he is factually guilty, his plan came dangerously close to succeeding and was only foiled by the doubts of one or two detectives, prompted by the observation of certain highly-subjective and contestable behavioural clues in the aftermath, the evidence of Julie Mugford (to whom he told everything), and the failure of the majority of the trial jury to observe the law and apply the correct standard of proof.  Some people will dispute this of course and say that the majority jury decision was correct given the evidence of Julie Mugford.  Why did Jeremy take the huge risk of telling her everything?  Maybe for the reason I allude to above: he thought that his plan had worked and part of him needed to tell somebody, and Julie was his confederate in crime and close confidant.  He was a criminal.  He had committed a burglary and was a drug dealer and trafficker of drugs, and according to Liz Rimington, he had floated the idea of burgling houses in Goldhanger.  Criminals are reckless and make flawed decisions.  That's why they are criminals.  Maybe that's all there is to it?

Problem? I thought Bamber had been in prison since 1986 
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline Adam

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Re: Evidence Sheila was docile/uncoordinated just before being shot:
« Reply #131 on: April 05, 2022, 05:45:AM »
Criminals do take chances, necessary and unnecessary.  They have to take some chances, due to the nature of what they do, and they may take unnecessary chances, due to their own reckless nature, which is why they are criminals in the first place.  Jeremy had a reckless nature.  Under the right environmental influences, this could have been put to constructive ends: he was probably not aptly fitted for a conservative vocation like farming, but might have found a legitimate trade, profession or vocation that played to his grasshopper nature and recklessness.  Instead, Jeremy came under the wrong influences and this came to its head in March 1985, when he broke into the site office at Osea Road and stole money.  According to the prosecution case, in words echoed by Maurice Drake at sentencing, Jeremy knew he would come under suspicion for the burglary, but also calculated that his involvement could not be proved.  He took the chance.  Similarly, during cross-examination by Anthony Arlidge, Q.C., it is claimed that Jeremy said: "That is for you to establish".  From one point of view, you can see here a consistent thread of thought, which is a reliance on not being caught, which is quite common to the criminal mentality.

Indeed, criminality often operates pragmatically in the grey area of 'reasonable doubt'.  "Say nowt".  "They can't prove it".  "Stick to your story".  Etc., etc.

The criminal may think that he will not be caught or that detection is improbable.  To be fair, detection is improbable from a generalised statistical point-of-view.  Most crimes go undetected, often not even noticed.  On that point, it's interesting that Jeremy carried out the Osea Road burglary in such a manner that it would be noticed.  He had staged it in the hope that people would lazily conclude it was an outside job, but he clearly did it this way because otherwise he knew that suspicion would be on him immediately if such a large sum of money were to go missing all at once without an apparent explanation.  The staging of a burglary was crude psychology: an attempt to divert focus, but it didn't work.  Jeremy would not have seen it as 'taking a chance', as such, but as part of his plan.  He did not want to be caught, but knew he would eventually be suspected and relied on the grey area of doubt to see him through.

Turning to the shootings a few months later, if Jeremy is guilty, then he engineered a spectacle outside the farmhouse for the purpose of establishing an alibi.  In contrast to the burglary, here he needs to make it look like an inside job.  It's no good if the police start developing doubts and thinking it could have been somebody from outside.  He believed that the police would enter the farmhouse, find everybody dead, and conclude that Sheila had shot everybody and herself while he was outside with the police.  Indeed, this was the police conclusion.  Engineering this required a number of things.  For instance, he needed to enter and exit the farmhouse undetected and without leaving forensic traces.  He needed to ring the police himself, so that he would be at the scene.  This meant he needed Nevill to ring him, not the police.  This involved taking a risk, which was that he would be making himself the centre of police attention, but the risk was acceptable to Jeremy because the plan involved many different steps and fail-safes that would divert police suspicion away from him, of which the phone call was just one element.  Putting the rifle on Sheila's body after shooting her in the main bedroom was analogous to the conspicuous burglary of the Osea Road site office: it was another a diversion of focus, crude but clever psychology.
 
However, this is where we come to the first fundamental problem with the prosecution case.  There is a problem of logic with this scenario: if the phone is downstairs, how does he get Nevill downstairs?  Surely Sheila would kill everybody while they are still in bed?  Hence, no phone call, hence Jeremy could be guilty, but maybe she wouldn't have had the chance, and Jeremy is still left with the problem that the phone call has to be made.  Maybe there is an argument downstairs first? But how does Jeremy ensure Nevill is downstairs rather than in bed?  Isn't it risky to allow Nevill to run downstairs?  How does he know Nevill will run downstairs?  What if Nevill struggles with him upstairs?  What then?  And why was there a struggle with Nevill downstairs, but not upstairs?  The prosecution may say it is because Nevill was drawing fire from the women and boys, but how does Nevill know Jeremy will follow him and not just shoot him or, if out of ammunition, knock him out with the rifle stock?  And if he shoots Nevill upstairs, will the police accept that a phone call was made from downstairs first?  Maybe what happened is that Jeremy pushed the rifle into Nevill's back and Nevill complied and went downstairs?  But if that is what happened, then where is Sheila at this stage?  Does the prosecution case depend on her being asleep?  We now have somebody in the guilt camp telling us she 'mentally' froze (as opposed to physically), but presumably this is when she is accosted by Jeremy.  What is she doing in the meantime?  Just sleeping?  If she is sleeping, does she never wake?  If she wakes, a whole host of other questions enter the picture.  Maybe Nevill was downstairs all along and Jeremy incapacitated him first? Perhaps after shooting at him from the stair landing, hence the blood on the kitchen door jamb.

We can see immediately that the initial conclusion of Essex Police, the belief Sheila was the killer, has something important to commend it: it accords with Occam's razor in that it is the conclusion of the fewest parts. She is severely mentally-ill.  She is found with the rifle.  All the doors and windows are secure.  To make Jeremy the killer, we have jump through lots of hoops, answering lots of different questions and solving riddles and problems.  These questions, and others, and various problems with the evidence, in my view must lead to a position of reasonable doubt about Jeremy's legal guilt, which means that if he is factually guilty, his plan came dangerously close to succeeding and was only foiled by the doubts of one or two detectives, prompted by the observation of certain highly-subjective and contestable behavioural clues in the aftermath, the evidence of Julie Mugford (to whom he told everything), and the failure of the majority of the trial jury to observe the law and apply the correct standard of proof.  Some people will dispute this of course and say that the majority jury decision was correct given the evidence of Julie Mugford.  Why did Jeremy take the huge risk of telling her everything?  Maybe for the reason I allude to above: he thought that his plan had worked and part of him needed to tell somebody, and Julie was his confederate in crime and close confidant.  He was a criminal.  He had committed a burglary and was a drug dealer and trafficker of drugs, and according to Liz Rimington, he had floated the idea of burgling houses in Goldhanger.  Criminals are reckless and make flawed decisions.  That's why they are criminals.  Maybe that's all there is to it?

A phone was in the main bedroom. Moved by Bamber after Nevill got downstairs.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2022, 05:56:AM by Adam »
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Offline Adam

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Re: Evidence Sheila was docile/uncoordinated just before being shot:
« Reply #132 on: April 05, 2022, 05:50:AM »
Criminals do take chances, necessary and unnecessary.  They have to take some chances, due to the nature of what they do, and they may take unnecessary chances, due to their own reckless nature, which is why they are criminals in the first place.  Jeremy had a reckless nature.  Under the right environmental influences, this could have been put to constructive ends: he was probably not aptly fitted for a conservative vocation like farming, but might have found a legitimate trade, profession or vocation that played to his grasshopper nature and recklessness.  Instead, Jeremy came under the wrong influences and this came to its head in March 1985, when he broke into the site office at Osea Road and stole money.  According to the prosecution case, in words echoed by Maurice Drake at sentencing, Jeremy knew he would come under suspicion for the burglary, but also calculated that his involvement could not be proved.  He took the chance.  Similarly, during cross-examination by Anthony Arlidge, Q.C., it is claimed that Jeremy said: "That is for you to establish".  From one point of view, you can see here a consistent thread of thought, which is a reliance on not being caught, which is quite common to the criminal mentality.

Indeed, criminality often operates pragmatically in the grey area of 'reasonable doubt'.  "Say nowt".  "They can't prove it".  "Stick to your story".  Etc., etc.

The criminal may think that he will not be caught or that detection is improbable.  To be fair, detection is improbable from a generalised statistical point-of-view.  Most crimes go undetected, often not even noticed.  On that point, it's interesting that Jeremy carried out the Osea Road burglary in such a manner that it would be noticed.  He had staged it in the hope that people would lazily conclude it was an outside job, but he clearly did it this way because otherwise he knew that suspicion would be on him immediately if such a large sum of money were to go missing all at once without an apparent explanation.  The staging of a burglary was crude psychology: an attempt to divert focus, but it didn't work.  Jeremy would not have seen it as 'taking a chance', as such, but as part of his plan.  He did not want to be caught, but knew he would eventually be suspected and relied on the grey area of doubt to see him through.

Turning to the shootings a few months later, if Jeremy is guilty, then he engineered a spectacle outside the farmhouse for the purpose of establishing an alibi.  In contrast to the burglary, here he needs to make it look like an inside job.  It's no good if the police start developing doubts and thinking it could have been somebody from outside.  He believed that the police would enter the farmhouse, find everybody dead, and conclude that Sheila had shot everybody and herself while he was outside with the police.  Indeed, this was the police conclusion.  Engineering this required a number of things.  For instance, he needed to enter and exit the farmhouse undetected and without leaving forensic traces.  He needed to ring the police himself, so that he would be at the scene.  This meant he needed Nevill to ring him, not the police.  This involved taking a risk, which was that he would be making himself the centre of police attention, but the risk was acceptable to Jeremy because the plan involved many different steps and fail-safes that would divert police suspicion away from him, of which the phone call was just one element.  Putting the rifle on Sheila's body after shooting her in the main bedroom was analogous to the conspicuous burglary of the Osea Road site office: it was another a diversion of focus, crude but clever psychology.
 
However, this is where we come to the first fundamental problem with the prosecution case.  There is a problem of logic with this scenario: if the phone is downstairs, how does he get Nevill downstairs?  Surely Sheila would kill everybody while they are still in bed?  Hence, no phone call, hence Jeremy could be guilty, but maybe she wouldn't have had the chance, and Jeremy is still left with the problem that the phone call has to be made.  Maybe there is an argument downstairs first? But how does Jeremy ensure Nevill is downstairs rather than in bed?  Isn't it risky to allow Nevill to run downstairs?  How does he know Nevill will run downstairs?  What if Nevill struggles with him upstairs?  What then?  And why was there a struggle with Nevill downstairs, but not upstairs?  The prosecution may say it is because Nevill was drawing fire from the women and boys, but how does Nevill know Jeremy will follow him and not just shoot him or, if out of ammunition, knock him out with the rifle stock?  And if he shoots Nevill upstairs, will the police accept that a phone call was made from downstairs first?  Maybe what happened is that Jeremy pushed the rifle into Nevill's back and Nevill complied and went downstairs?  But if that is what happened, then where is Sheila at this stage?  Does the prosecution case depend on her being asleep?  We now have somebody in the guilt camp telling us she 'mentally' froze (as opposed to physically), but presumably this is when she is accosted by Jeremy.  What is she doing in the meantime?  Just sleeping?  If she is sleeping, does she never wake?  If she wakes, a whole host of other questions enter the picture.  Maybe Nevill was downstairs all along and Jeremy incapacitated him first? Perhaps after shooting at him from the stair landing, hence the blood on the kitchen door jamb.

We can see immediately that the initial conclusion of Essex Police, the belief Sheila was the killer, has something important to commend it: it accords with Occam's razor in that it is the conclusion of the fewest parts. She is severely mentally-ill.  She is found with the rifle.  All the doors and windows are secure.  To make Jeremy the killer, we have jump through lots of hoops, answering lots of different questions and solving riddles and problems.  These questions, and others, and various problems with the evidence, in my view must lead to a position of reasonable doubt about Jeremy's legal guilt, which means that if he is factually guilty, his plan came dangerously close to succeeding and was only foiled by the doubts of one or two detectives, prompted by the observation of certain highly-subjective and contestable behavioural clues in the aftermath, the evidence of Julie Mugford (to whom he told everything), and the failure of the majority of the trial jury to observe the law and apply the correct standard of proof.  Some people will dispute this of course and say that the majority jury decision was correct given the evidence of Julie Mugford.  Why did Jeremy take the huge risk of telling her everything?  Maybe for the reason I allude to above: he thought that his plan had worked and part of him needed to tell somebody, and Julie was his confederate in crime and close confidant.  He was a criminal.  He had committed a burglary and was a drug dealer and trafficker of drugs, and according to Liz Rimington, he had floated the idea of burgling houses in Goldhanger.  Criminals are reckless and make flawed decisions.  That's why they are criminals.  Maybe that's all there is to it?

Bamber planned to kill Nevill and June in the main bedroom. He fired 9 shots into them in his opening salvo. 

He was strong enough to then take Nevill a few feet from the bed. To give the impression Nevill had been out of bed. Better still Nevill would have the energy to stagger a few feet before collapsing.

He would then take the bedroom phone off the hook.

However Nevill got past him & went downstairs. Or followed Bamber when he went to re load. 
« Last Edit: April 05, 2022, 06:13:AM by Adam »
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Offline Adam

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Re: Evidence Sheila was docile/uncoordinated just before being shot:
« Reply #133 on: April 05, 2022, 05:53:AM »
Criminals do take chances, necessary and unnecessary.  They have to take some chances, due to the nature of what they do, and they may take unnecessary chances, due to their own reckless nature, which is why they are criminals in the first place.  Jeremy had a reckless nature.  Under the right environmental influences, this could have been put to constructive ends: he was probably not aptly fitted for a conservative vocation like farming, but might have found a legitimate trade, profession or vocation that played to his grasshopper nature and recklessness.  Instead, Jeremy came under the wrong influences and this came to its head in March 1985, when he broke into the site office at Osea Road and stole money.  According to the prosecution case, in words echoed by Maurice Drake at sentencing, Jeremy knew he would come under suspicion for the burglary, but also calculated that his involvement could not be proved.  He took the chance.  Similarly, during cross-examination by Anthony Arlidge, Q.C., it is claimed that Jeremy said: "That is for you to establish".  From one point of view, you can see here a consistent thread of thought, which is a reliance on not being caught, which is quite common to the criminal mentality.

Indeed, criminality often operates pragmatically in the grey area of 'reasonable doubt'.  "Say nowt".  "They can't prove it".  "Stick to your story".  Etc., etc.

The criminal may think that he will not be caught or that detection is improbable.  To be fair, detection is improbable from a generalised statistical point-of-view.  Most crimes go undetected, often not even noticed.  On that point, it's interesting that Jeremy carried out the Osea Road burglary in such a manner that it would be noticed.  He had staged it in the hope that people would lazily conclude it was an outside job, but he clearly did it this way because otherwise he knew that suspicion would be on him immediately if such a large sum of money were to go missing all at once without an apparent explanation.  The staging of a burglary was crude psychology: an attempt to divert focus, but it didn't work.  Jeremy would not have seen it as 'taking a chance', as such, but as part of his plan.  He did not want to be caught, but knew he would eventually be suspected and relied on the grey area of doubt to see him through.

Turning to the shootings a few months later, if Jeremy is guilty, then he engineered a spectacle outside the farmhouse for the purpose of establishing an alibi.  In contrast to the burglary, here he needs to make it look like an inside job.  It's no good if the police start developing doubts and thinking it could have been somebody from outside.  He believed that the police would enter the farmhouse, find everybody dead, and conclude that Sheila had shot everybody and herself while he was outside with the police.  Indeed, this was the police conclusion.  Engineering this required a number of things.  For instance, he needed to enter and exit the farmhouse undetected and without leaving forensic traces.  He needed to ring the police himself, so that he would be at the scene.  This meant he needed Nevill to ring him, not the police.  This involved taking a risk, which was that he would be making himself the centre of police attention, but the risk was acceptable to Jeremy because the plan involved many different steps and fail-safes that would divert police suspicion away from him, of which the phone call was just one element.  Putting the rifle on Sheila's body after shooting her in the main bedroom was analogous to the conspicuous burglary of the Osea Road site office: it was another a diversion of focus, crude but clever psychology.
 
However, this is where we come to the first fundamental problem with the prosecution case.  There is a problem of logic with this scenario: if the phone is downstairs, how does he get Nevill downstairs?  Surely Sheila would kill everybody while they are still in bed?  Hence, no phone call, hence Jeremy could be guilty, but maybe she wouldn't have had the chance, and Jeremy is still left with the problem that the phone call has to be made.  Maybe there is an argument downstairs first? But how does Jeremy ensure Nevill is downstairs rather than in bed?  Isn't it risky to allow Nevill to run downstairs?  How does he know Nevill will run downstairs?  What if Nevill struggles with him upstairs?  What then?  And why was there a struggle with Nevill downstairs, but not upstairs?  The prosecution may say it is because Nevill was drawing fire from the women and boys, but how does Nevill know Jeremy will follow him and not just shoot him or, if out of ammunition, knock him out with the rifle stock?  And if he shoots Nevill upstairs, will the police accept that a phone call was made from downstairs first?  Maybe what happened is that Jeremy pushed the rifle into Nevill's back and Nevill complied and went downstairs?  But if that is what happened, then where is Sheila at this stage?  Does the prosecution case depend on her being asleep?  We now have somebody in the guilt camp telling us she 'mentally' froze (as opposed to physically), but presumably this is when she is accosted by Jeremy.  What is she doing in the meantime?  Just sleeping?  If she is sleeping, does she never wake?  If she wakes, a whole host of other questions enter the picture.  Maybe Nevill was downstairs all along and Jeremy incapacitated him first? Perhaps after shooting at him from the stair landing, hence the blood on the kitchen door jamb.

We can see immediately that the initial conclusion of Essex Police, the belief Sheila was the killer, has something important to commend it: it accords with Occam's razor in that it is the conclusion of the fewest parts. She is severely mentally-ill.  She is found with the rifle.  All the doors and windows are secure.  To make Jeremy the killer, we have jump through lots of hoops, answering lots of different questions and solving riddles and problems.  These questions, and others, and various problems with the evidence, in my view must lead to a position of reasonable doubt about Jeremy's legal guilt, which means that if he is factually guilty, his plan came dangerously close to succeeding and was only foiled by the doubts of one or two detectives, prompted by the observation of certain highly-subjective and contestable behavioural clues in the aftermath, the evidence of Julie Mugford (to whom he told everything), and the failure of the majority of the trial jury to observe the law and apply the correct standard of proof.  Some people will dispute this of course and say that the majority jury decision was correct given the evidence of Julie Mugford.  Why did Jeremy take the huge risk of telling her everything?  Maybe for the reason I allude to above: he thought that his plan had worked and part of him needed to tell somebody, and Julie was his confederate in crime and close confidant.  He was a criminal.  He had committed a burglary and was a drug dealer and trafficker of drugs, and according to Liz Rimington, he had floated the idea of burgling houses in Goldhanger.  Criminals are reckless and make flawed decisions.  That's why they are criminals.  Maybe that's all there is to it?

In my view Sheila slept through the downstairs kitchen fight. The evidence is she was very docile from the Haloperiodal & behind thick walls & doors.

However if she did wake & get up, Bamber would deal with the situation.  As another poster said, she may have froze. Which would have made it easy but this was not essential for him.

Either way it would be the same result - Sheila lying with rifle across her.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2022, 06:14:AM by Adam »
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Offline Adam

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Re: Evidence Sheila was docile/uncoordinated just before being shot:
« Reply #134 on: April 05, 2022, 06:01:AM »
Criminals do take chances, necessary and unnecessary.  They have to take some chances, due to the nature of what they do, and they may take unnecessary chances, due to their own reckless nature, which is why they are criminals in the first place.  Jeremy had a reckless nature.  Under the right environmental influences, this could have been put to constructive ends: he was probably not aptly fitted for a conservative vocation like farming, but might have found a legitimate trade, profession or vocation that played to his grasshopper nature and recklessness.  Instead, Jeremy came under the wrong influences and this came to its head in March 1985, when he broke into the site office at Osea Road and stole money.  According to the prosecution case, in words echoed by Maurice Drake at sentencing, Jeremy knew he would come under suspicion for the burglary, but also calculated that his involvement could not be proved.  He took the chance.  Similarly, during cross-examination by Anthony Arlidge, Q.C., it is claimed that Jeremy said: "That is for you to establish".  From one point of view, you can see here a consistent thread of thought, which is a reliance on not being caught, which is quite common to the criminal mentality.

Indeed, criminality often operates pragmatically in the grey area of 'reasonable doubt'.  "Say nowt".  "They can't prove it".  "Stick to your story".  Etc., etc.

The criminal may think that he will not be caught or that detection is improbable.  To be fair, detection is improbable from a generalised statistical point-of-view.  Most crimes go undetected, often not even noticed.  On that point, it's interesting that Jeremy carried out the Osea Road burglary in such a manner that it would be noticed.  He had staged it in the hope that people would lazily conclude it was an outside job, but he clearly did it this way because otherwise he knew that suspicion would be on him immediately if such a large sum of money were to go missing all at once without an apparent explanation.  The staging of a burglary was crude psychology: an attempt to divert focus, but it didn't work.  Jeremy would not have seen it as 'taking a chance', as such, but as part of his plan.  He did not want to be caught, but knew he would eventually be suspected and relied on the grey area of doubt to see him through.

Turning to the shootings a few months later, if Jeremy is guilty, then he engineered a spectacle outside the farmhouse for the purpose of establishing an alibi.  In contrast to the burglary, here he needs to make it look like an inside job.  It's no good if the police start developing doubts and thinking it could have been somebody from outside.  He believed that the police would enter the farmhouse, find everybody dead, and conclude that Sheila had shot everybody and herself while he was outside with the police.  Indeed, this was the police conclusion.  Engineering this required a number of things.  For instance, he needed to enter and exit the farmhouse undetected and without leaving forensic traces.  He needed to ring the police himself, so that he would be at the scene.  This meant he needed Nevill to ring him, not the police.  This involved taking a risk, which was that he would be making himself the centre of police attention, but the risk was acceptable to Jeremy because the plan involved many different steps and fail-safes that would divert police suspicion away from him, of which the phone call was just one element.  Putting the rifle on Sheila's body after shooting her in the main bedroom was analogous to the conspicuous burglary of the Osea Road site office: it was another a diversion of focus, crude but clever psychology.
 
However, this is where we come to the first fundamental problem with the prosecution case.  There is a problem of logic with this scenario: if the phone is downstairs, how does he get Nevill downstairs?  Surely Sheila would kill everybody while they are still in bed?  Hence, no phone call, hence Jeremy could be guilty, but maybe she wouldn't have had the chance, and Jeremy is still left with the problem that the phone call has to be made.  Maybe there is an argument downstairs first? But how does Jeremy ensure Nevill is downstairs rather than in bed?  Isn't it risky to allow Nevill to run downstairs?  How does he know Nevill will run downstairs?  What if Nevill struggles with him upstairs?  What then?  And why was there a struggle with Nevill downstairs, but not upstairs?  The prosecution may say it is because Nevill was drawing fire from the women and boys, but how does Nevill know Jeremy will follow him and not just shoot him or, if out of ammunition, knock him out with the rifle stock?  And if he shoots Nevill upstairs, will the police accept that a phone call was made from downstairs first?  Maybe what happened is that Jeremy pushed the rifle into Nevill's back and Nevill complied and went downstairs?  But if that is what happened, then where is Sheila at this stage?  Does the prosecution case depend on her being asleep?  We now have somebody in the guilt camp telling us she 'mentally' froze (as opposed to physically), but presumably this is when she is accosted by Jeremy.  What is she doing in the meantime?  Just sleeping?  If she is sleeping, does she never wake?  If she wakes, a whole host of other questions enter the picture.  Maybe Nevill was downstairs all along and Jeremy incapacitated him first? Perhaps after shooting at him from the stair landing, hence the blood on the kitchen door jamb.

We can see immediately that the initial conclusion of Essex Police, the belief Sheila was the killer, has something important to commend it: it accords with Occam's razor in that it is the conclusion of the fewest parts. She is severely mentally-ill.  She is found with the rifle.  All the doors and windows are secure.  To make Jeremy the killer, we have jump through lots of hoops, answering lots of different questions and solving riddles and problems.  These questions, and others, and various problems with the evidence, in my view must lead to a position of reasonable doubt about Jeremy's legal guilt, which means that if he is factually guilty, his plan came dangerously close to succeeding and was only foiled by the doubts of one or two detectives, prompted by the observation of certain highly-subjective and contestable behavioural clues in the aftermath, the evidence of Julie Mugford (to whom he told everything), and the failure of the majority of the trial jury to observe the law and apply the correct standard of proof.  Some people will dispute this of course and say that the majority jury decision was correct given the evidence of Julie Mugford.  Why did Jeremy take the huge risk of telling her everything?  Maybe for the reason I allude to above: he thought that his plan had worked and part of him needed to tell somebody, and Julie was his confederate in crime and close confidant.  He was a criminal.  He had committed a burglary and was a drug dealer and trafficker of drugs, and according to Liz Rimington, he had floated the idea of burgling houses in Goldhanger.  Criminals are reckless and make flawed decisions.  That's why they are criminals.  Maybe that's all there is to it?

You know Bamber could bang shut the kitchen window from outside.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.