Author Topic: Bamber controlling a fully fit Sheila.  (Read 22920 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online snow66!

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5940
Re: Bamber controlling a fully fit Sheila.
« Reply #330 on: March 30, 2022, 11:37:PM »
In his first statement Dr Ferguson said------In hindsight i believe that Sheila would have relapsed into a state of psychosis,probably having a firmly held belief or delusion involving concepts of good and evil and certainly paranoid,possibly involving her mother.

Online snow66!

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5940
Re: Bamber controlling a fully fit Sheila.
« Reply #331 on: March 30, 2022, 11:58:PM »
And yes,surely Sheila was on some sort of anti-psychotic medication when she had her second breakdown that Freddie witnessed,So that is a good point you have made Gascoigne,she must have suffered a psychotic episode while medicated.

Offline Adam

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 44381
Re: Bamber controlling a fully fit Sheila.
« Reply #332 on: March 31, 2022, 12:05:AM »
There's no doubt in my mind that Adam would prevail over Cambridgecutie in a mud-wrestling bout for Top Guilter.  Mind you, Cambridgecutie is snapping at his heels and there has been tension between them, with Adam openly resenting how she critiqued his scenarios.  I do agree with Adam on this.  It's not the 'done thing' to muscle in and take apart Adam's scenarios when he has been doing this for years and built up a reputation for expertise in this area.  I just think some people are jealous of Adam.

She never has as far as I am aware.

Rob & Snow66! have. Saying Bamber could not cycle on foot/bike paths at night.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

guest29835

  • Guest
Re: Bamber controlling a fully fit Sheila.
« Reply #333 on: March 31, 2022, 12:55:AM »
Not that i am aware of Gascoigne.So are you also suggesting that even with a lower dose of Haloperidol Sheila could not have a psychotic breakdown? Didnt Ferguson say in reflection that it did seem possible?

I'm not firmly suggesting anything to be fair, but I think what you say would be one of the points of a pro-guilt position.  I think another pro-guilt point that can be made is that the monthly dosage does not necessarily 'run out' somehow but is meant to be delivered in such a way that Sheila would have been subjected to a consistent therapeutic dose over the full month. 

However, there are a number of problems with the observations made by the pro-guilt camp.  I won't exhaust them here.  They've been covered in the thread, but one point to emphasise is that it's not a simple matter of saying that Sheila was under medication therefore psychosis is precluded.  When medical professionals refer to a 'therapeutic dose', they are not speaking of efficacy, they are merely saying what I have just noted, which is that the monthly intramuscular dosage is delivered in a way that tries to ensure a consistent medication over the full month.  The actual effect of the medication is not measurable in any linear fashion because it will vary greatly from one patient to another and across different environments, situations and circumstances.

Indeed, both Dr. Ferguson and Dr. Bradley at trial (both of them were defence witnesses) were keen to emphasise that:

(i). a patient can relapse, even under medication; and,
(ii). Sheila was early in her treatment and so the situation was still considered somewhat 'trial and error'.

From personal experience, I am aware that a paranoid schizophrenic under a monthly medication dosage can relapse, even after many years.  The person I am referring to, who was very close to me, had received monthly injections of Haloperidol, like Sheila, since perhaps his teens or early 20s (men are diagnosed with schizophrenia much earlier than women), but he would have relapses well into his 30s in which an ambulance and doctors would turn up to section him and take him away.  On its face, this seems odd because his dosages were not intra-oral and you would think he must have stabilised over such a lengthy period, coupled with the greater maturity of age.  This individual otherwise maintained stable employment throughout his life and was married with children.  Yet I can only tell you what occurred.

On the other hand, the medication was generally successful and he only went into a long-term 'permanent' relapse when he was taken off the Haldol (Haloperidol) at an elderly age, due to other medical risks of the side-effects.

Of course, this is just one example and one must be wary of generalisations, but it does suggest that in regard to Sheila, there is something in the argument that she was medicated therefore it is less likely she could have been psychotic, but nobody can say that she could not have been psychotic and we have the evidence from both Dr. Illiffe (March 1985) and Pam Boutflour (6th. August 1985) of a consistent mood pattern in Sheila.  We also have evidence from the other witnesses that there was something wrong with Sheila, in spite of being medicated.

Ironically, the evidence cited by Adam and other guilters on here could be used to make a pretty compelling argument that Sheila was still afflicted with psychosis and the medication wasn't working, taking into account the cautious words of both Doctors Ferguson and Bradley that Sheila was still early on in her treatment. 

guest29835

  • Guest
Re: Bamber controlling a fully fit Sheila.
« Reply #334 on: March 31, 2022, 01:09:AM »
She never has as far as I am aware.

Rob & Snow66! have. Saying Bamber could not cycle on foot/bike paths at night.

Don't mention Rob's name.  I'm still in a sulk because he won't let me use his sunbed.  How am I supposed to get a tan?  I need your moral support right now Adam.

Offline Jane

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 33775
Re: Bamber controlling a fully fit Sheila.
« Reply #335 on: March 31, 2022, 06:50:AM »





Yes Jane, it must have been marijuana that Sheila was smoking as HG said it " smelled funny " to which Sheila offered to give her a cigarette but HG declined, then Sheila had said that" everyone should smoke drugs ".
Sheila would have had withdrawal symptoms on the night of the tragedies as it would have appeared that she was dependent on the weed, and that alone would have driven her mad. To still have it in her system she must have smoked heavily on the weekend before as if she'd just had one, it would have left no trace beyond about 36 hrs with eating and drinking.

 

.


But she tested negative for all except one noxious substance and showed only a "slight positive" for one other. I really don't believe her to have taken marijuana to WHF and I'm not sure I believe her to be as addicted as is claimed. The blood tests bear this out. It also occurs to me that some of the tobaccos used in roll ups, which she was known to smoke, smelled very peculiar, especially to an innocent who had little/no knowledge of such things.

I'm still at a loss as to when this conversation happened. It simply doesn't fit with the Sheila who visited farm that August.

Offline Jane

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 33775
Re: Bamber controlling a fully fit Sheila.
« Reply #336 on: March 31, 2022, 07:01:AM »
And yes,surely Sheila was on some sort of anti-psychotic medication when she had her second breakdown that Freddie witnessed,So that is a good point you have made Gascoigne,she must have suffered a psychotic episode while medicated.


Why "must have"? I'd suggest it's just as possible that it was because she refused/omitted to take her medication, any levels present were neither theraputic nor efficacious.

Offline lookout

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 48676
Re: Bamber controlling a fully fit Sheila.
« Reply #337 on: March 31, 2022, 09:15:AM »
Trial and error with many medications which are invariably " tweaked " until they prove to be suitable in treating a condition as well as being suitably tolerant to the patient.

BP medications are a nightmare ! As something that is tailored to reduce hypertension can actually make matters worse. This is just one for instance ! Only the recipient of these things can judge as to whether the medication they're taking has adverse effects or not----not a GP or psychiatrist.

Online snow66!

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5940
Re: Bamber controlling a fully fit Sheila.
« Reply #338 on: March 31, 2022, 10:44:AM »

But she tested negative for all except one noxious substance and showed only a "slight positive" for one other. I really don't believe her to have taken marijuana to WHF and I'm not sure I believe her to be as addicted as is claimed. The blood tests bear this out. It also occurs to me that some of the tobaccos used in roll ups, which she was known to smoke, smelled very peculiar, especially to an innocent who had little/no knowledge of such things.

I'm still at a loss as to when this conversation happened. It simply doesn't fit with the Sheila who visited farm that August.
Hiya Jane,cold day.The conversation with Helen Grimster at WHF took place the day after she was discharged from hospital,so it must have been on the 30th of March.

Online snow66!

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5940
Re: Bamber controlling a fully fit Sheila.
« Reply #339 on: March 31, 2022, 10:48:AM »

Why "must have"? I'd suggest it's just as possible that it was because she refused/omitted to take her medication, any levels present were neither theraputic nor efficacious.
HI Jane.Ok,lets just say Sheila would have been prescribed anti psychotic meds at the time,whether or not she took them,and how often is a different matter.Is that better?

Online snow66!

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5940
Re: Bamber controlling a fully fit Sheila.
« Reply #340 on: March 31, 2022, 10:52:AM »
She never has as far as I am aware.

Rob & Snow66! have. Saying Bamber could not cycle on foot/bike paths at night.
Hi Adam,how are you this morning.If you check my scenario again you will find i only said it would have been tough going if he had to cycle through fields,and that his backside would have been numb.

Online snow66!

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5940
Re: Bamber controlling a fully fit Sheila.
« Reply #341 on: March 31, 2022, 11:04:AM »
I'm not firmly suggesting anything to be fair, but I think what you say would be one of the points of a pro-guilt position.  I think another pro-guilt point that can be made is that the monthly dosage does not necessarily 'run out' somehow but is meant to be delivered in such a way that Sheila would have been subjected to a consistent therapeutic dose over the full month. 

However, there are a number of problems with the observations made by the pro-guilt camp.  I won't exhaust them here.  They've been covered in the thread, but one point to emphasise is that it's not a simple matter of saying that Sheila was under medication therefore psychosis is precluded.  When medical professionals refer to a 'therapeutic dose', they are not speaking of efficacy, they are merely saying what I have just noted, which is that the monthly intramuscular dosage is delivered in a way that tries to ensure a consistent medication over the full month.  The actual effect of the medication is not measurable in any linear fashion because it will vary greatly from one patient to another and across different environments, situations and circumstances.

Indeed, both Dr. Ferguson and Dr. Bradley at trial (both of them were defence witnesses) were keen to emphasise that:

(i). a patient can relapse, even under medication; and,
(ii). Sheila was early in her treatment and so the situation was still considered somewhat 'trial and error'.

From personal experience, I am aware that a paranoid schizophrenic under a monthly medication dosage can relapse, even after many years.  The person I am referring to, who was very close to me, had received monthly injections of Haloperidol, like Sheila, since perhaps his teens or early 20s (men are diagnosed with schizophrenia much earlier than women), but he would have relapses well into his 30s in which an ambulance and doctors would turn up to section him and take him away.  On its face, this seems odd because his dosages were not intra-oral and you would think he must have stabilised over such a lengthy period, coupled with the greater maturity of age.  This individual otherwise maintained stable employment throughout his life and was married with children.  Yet I can only tell you what occurred.

On the other hand, the medication was generally successful and he only went into a long-term 'permanent' relapse when he was taken off the Haldol (Haloperidol) at an elderly age, due to other medical risks of the side-effects.

Of course, this is just one example and one must be wary of generalisations, but it does suggest that in regard to Sheila, there is something in the argument that she was medicated therefore it is less likely she could have been psychotic, but nobody can say that she could not have been psychotic and we have the evidence from both Dr. Illiffe (March 1985) and Pam Boutflour (6th. August 1985) of a consistent mood pattern in Sheila.  We also have evidence from the other witnesses that there was something wrong with Sheila, in spite of being medicated.

Ironically, the evidence cited by Adam and other guilters on here could be used to make a pretty compelling argument that Sheila was still afflicted with psychosis and the medication wasn't working, taking into account the cautious words of both Doctors Ferguson and Bradley that Sheila was still early on in her treatment.
Morning Gascoigne.So taking everything into account from your own personal experience and the evidence of the Doctors at trial,a relapse could possibly happen even under medication.

Offline Jane

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 33775
Re: Bamber controlling a fully fit Sheila.
« Reply #342 on: March 31, 2022, 11:57:AM »
HI Jane.Ok,lets just say Sheila would have been prescribed anti psychotic meds at the time,whether or not she took them,and how often is a different matter.Is that better?


We're going round in circles rather! The very reason her doses were delivered intravenously was because she wasn't taking them orally.

Offline Adam

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 44381
Re: Bamber controlling a fully fit Sheila.
« Reply #343 on: March 31, 2022, 12:08:PM »
Hi Adam,how are you this morning.If you check my scenario again you will find i only said it would have been tough going if he had to cycle through fields,and that his backside would have been numb.

There were no fields to cycle through.

Bamber stole June's bike just before the massacre so he could cycle to/from WHF.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Online snow66!

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5940
Re: Bamber controlling a fully fit Sheila.
« Reply #344 on: March 31, 2022, 12:48:PM »

We're going round in circles rather! The very reason her doses were delivered intravenously was because she wasn't taking them orally.
Yes i fully understand that Jane.The fact that she wasnt taking them orally means she was not a good guide of herself,along with taking illegal drugs like cocaine,she wasnt helping to keep her psychosis at bay.