Author Topic: Bamber controlling a fully fit Sheila.  (Read 22926 times)

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Offline mike tesko

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Re: Bamber controlling a fully fit Sheila.
« Reply #120 on: March 26, 2022, 12:17:PM »
I wouldn't disagree with that, however, I suspect we may not have full details of many things we'd benefit from knowing!

I've just read the same article. It initially leads one to believe that the poor man's status as a psychiatrist was a significant part of it, but it seems as if it was a random attack and he was simply in the wrong place at the wrong time.



'Oh', OK!
« Last Edit: March 26, 2022, 12:30:PM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Online snow66!

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Re: Bamber controlling a fully fit Sheila.
« Reply #121 on: March 26, 2022, 12:30:PM »
CAL also said Sheila needed help getting off sofa's. A week before the massacre. According to a friend of Sheila's.

Hopefully everyone agrees Sheila was easy to control for the few seconds Bamber required. While simultaneously unable to breach, chamber & load a rifle. Let alone wrestle Nevill for it.
Hi Adam.Well if we are adding arthritis to the poor girls list of symptoms,surely it must have taken more than a few seconds to get her out of bed and hobble through to the bedroom.Although,i think you have mentioned JB carrying Sheila through at one time.

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Re: Bamber controlling a fully fit Sheila.
« Reply #122 on: March 26, 2022, 12:41:PM »
Don't forget Wilkes.

You're saying Wilkes was Carol Ann Lee's source?  Sorry, not quite sure what you mean.  If Wilkes was the source, then the same question arises.  We need to know the source or it could just be Carol Ann Lee's invention.  At least we now know the origin for the word 'zombie' in this case.

Online snow66!

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Re: Bamber controlling a fully fit Sheila.
« Reply #123 on: March 26, 2022, 01:23:PM »
You're saying Wilkes was Carol Ann Lee's source?  Sorry, not quite sure what you mean.  If Wilkes was the source, then the same question arises.  We need to know the source or it could just be Carol Ann Lee's invention.  At least we now know the origin for the word 'zombie' in this case.
This is exactly what it says in CALs book,whether it came from witness statements,who knows.------At the house,June answered the telephone when it rang again just after the hour.it was Pamela,wanting to know if Sheila and the twins had arrived that weekend.June told her that Sheila was just going to bed.I then spoke to Sheila,Pamela recalled,and i enquired as to how she was keeping.She told me she was alright and she also said that she had been to visit an elderly lady with June and had taken the twins.Pamela did most of the talking.Sheila didnt chat as she generally did,and after two or three minutes the conversation dried up,June came back on the phone.I thought this was strange as [Sheila] didnt even say;goodnight auntie Pam;,which she normally would do.June told her Sheila had gone to bed,adding that she was very worried about her and wanted Pamela to see her 'and form an opinion about her health'.She had no interest in anything,including the twins'.June then explained she had been 'trying to persuade Sheila to take a holiday at a home in Bournemouth'.Pamela invited them all over for lunch on thursday and,after discussing their mother's care,the sisters said goodnight.In wix,Pamela told Robert that the conversation with Sheila had been 'hard-going'.She sounded like 'a zombie' and didnt want to feed the twins or look after herself,which was why June wanted their advice about 'putting Sheila into a nursing home.Describing the phone call to Colin some days later,Pamela recalled an extra detail;June had wanted Sheila to stay with a 'Christian community in Bournemouth'.-----------------------------Where CAL got all these specific details from who knows.Is it all in witness statements or through personal interviews.For one thing the -yes,no-- answers have been expanded to what you would call a short two way conversation.So what is fact in CALS book?

Offline Adam

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Re: Bamber controlling a fully fit Sheila.
« Reply #124 on: March 26, 2022, 04:36:PM »
You're saying Wilkes was Carol Ann Lee's source?  Sorry, not quite sure what you mean.  If Wilkes was the source, then the same question arises.  We need to know the source or it could just be Carol Ann Lee's invention.  At least we now know the origin for the word 'zombie' in this case.

Reply 105.

Wilkes & CAL saying similar things.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Online snow66!

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Re: Bamber controlling a fully fit Sheila.
« Reply #125 on: March 26, 2022, 09:10:PM »
You're saying Wilkes was Carol Ann Lee's source?  Sorry, not quite sure what you mean.  If Wilkes was the source, then the same question arises.  We need to know the source or it could just be Carol Ann Lee's invention.  At least we now know the origin for the word 'zombie' in this case.
Good evening Gascoigne.Another person in CALs book uses the word zombie twice to describe Sheila on 6th Aug 1985.------------Painting the exterior walls at Vaulty that afternoon,Michael Horsnell noticed that all was not well.At quarter past three he recognised Junes silver Renault as it turned in at the drive.He watched June,Sheila and the twins head into the garden;Mrs Bamber was playing with the two boys,jumping over small hedges and running up and down the garden.Sheila was with them,but she was like a zombie.she walked very rigidly and the only part of her that moved was from the knees down.She didnt speak at all.They went into the house.June sought him out a short time later to discuss repairs;'i got the definite impression that she was upset about something.She was in a different mood from when she had been playing with the children.It was not anything she said,but just the way she looked and was speaking;When they left the house,;Sheila definately did not look normal' and was again; 'walking stiffly,like a zombie from a horror movie;.-----------I cant see a mention of this guy in the Archives.Do you have access to any statements he may have made Gascoigne? It would be interesting to see if this is his own words,or if CAL has a particular fondness for using the term ;zombie' herself!

Online snow66!

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Re: Bamber controlling a fully fit Sheila.
« Reply #126 on: March 26, 2022, 09:12:PM »
Oh ,the word appears on page 152 and page 153 too.

Offline Jane

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Re: Bamber controlling a fully fit Sheila.
« Reply #127 on: March 26, 2022, 09:27:PM »
Good evening Gascoigne.Another person in CALs book uses the word zombie twice to describe Sheila on 6th Aug 1985.------------Painting the exterior walls at Vaulty that afternoon,Michael Horsnell noticed that all was not well.At quarter past three he recognised Junes silver Renault as it turned in at the drive.He watched June,Sheila and the twins head into the garden;Mrs Bamber was playing with the two boys,jumping over small hedges and running up and down the garden.Sheila was with them,but she was like a zombie.she walked very rigidly and the only part of her that moved was from the knees down.She didnt speak at all.They went into the house.June sought him out a short time later to discuss repairs;'i got the definite impression that she was upset about something.She was in a different mood from when she had been playing with the children.It was not anything she said,but just the way she looked and was speaking;When they left the house,;Sheila definately did not look normal' and was again; 'walking stiffly,like a zombie from a horror movie;.-----------I cant see a mention of this guy in the Archives.Do you have access to any statements he may have made Gascoigne? It would be interesting to see if this is his own words,or if CAL has a particular fondness for using the term ;zombie' herself!


Many thanks for that, Snow. That particular incident has become translated, by supporters, and often claimed as being Sheila who was seen to be running and playing with the boys, which is interesting because had it been Sheila, it would have been the only time during her last fortnight that she was reported as being animated. Such a claim at at total variance with the general consensus. It's also quite contrary to what June said of her when she was in conversation with Pam.

Online snow66!

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Re: Bamber controlling a fully fit Sheila.
« Reply #128 on: March 26, 2022, 10:21:PM »

Many thanks for that, Snow. That particular incident has become translated, by supporters, and often claimed as being Sheila who was seen to be running and playing with the boys, which is interesting because had it been Sheila, it would have been the only time during her last fortnight that she was reported as being animated. Such a claim at at total variance with the general consensus. It's also quite contrary to what June said of her when she was in conversation with Pam.
Good evening Jane,hope you are well.Well i was only pointing out the use of the word zombie again.I had no idea there was any particular significance to this event,although,as i was saying to Gascoigne,is there a statement somewhere that Michael Horsnell made about the incident.Or did a lot of CALs information come from personally interviewing witness's herself?

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Re: Bamber controlling a fully fit Sheila.
« Reply #129 on: March 27, 2022, 12:51:AM »
This is exactly what it says in CALs book,whether it came from witness statements,who knows.------At the house,June answered the telephone when it rang again just after the hour.it was Pamela,wanting to know if Sheila and the twins had arrived that weekend.June told her that Sheila was just going to bed.I then spoke to Sheila,Pamela recalled,and i enquired as to how she was keeping.She told me she was alright and she also said that she had been to visit an elderly lady with June and had taken the twins.Pamela did most of the talking.Sheila didnt chat as she generally did,and after two or three minutes the conversation dried up,June came back on the phone.I thought this was strange as [Sheila] didnt even say;goodnight auntie Pam;,which she normally would do.June told her Sheila had gone to bed,adding that she was very worried about her and wanted Pamela to see her 'and form an opinion about her health'.She had no interest in anything,including the twins'.June then explained she had been 'trying to persuade Sheila to take a holiday at a home in Bournemouth'.Pamela invited them all over for lunch on thursday and,after discussing their mother's care,the sisters said goodnight.In wix,Pamela told Robert that the conversation with Sheila had been 'hard-going'.She sounded like 'a zombie' and didnt want to feed the twins or look after herself,which was why June wanted their advice about 'putting Sheila into a nursing home.Describing the phone call to Colin some days later,Pamela recalled an extra detail;June had wanted Sheila to stay with a 'Christian community in Bournemouth'.-----------------------------Where CAL got all these specific details from who knows.Is it all in witness statements or through personal interviews.For one thing the -yes,no-- answers have been expanded to what you would call a short two way conversation.So what is fact in CALS book?

Do you know what page it's mentioned on, please Snow?

If what Adam says is anything to go by, Carol Ann Lee's source may be Roger Wilkes, in which case it can probably be dismissed as Mr Wilkes' book is unreferenced and largely unsourced and he exercises a considerable degree of licence, even inventing remarks or incidents that never occurred. 

The Wilkes and Lee books have their merits and should be read by everybody interested in the case, but both authors have damaged understanding of the case due to their tendency towards licence.  Even I occasionally lapse into error due to the influence of the books and I will say something that in my mind is fact but which actually came from a book and is a misrepresentation or flat out wrong.  Both authors should be read, but read with due caution.

Unfortunately, I do not have Michael Horsnell's statement.  I see from a search of the Forum that I have in the past asked a member on here for a copy of it as he kept quoting it, but a copy was not forthcoming and I suspect he based his views on Carol Ann Lee.

If there is a statement (there may not be), Mike will almost-certainly have it. 

Offline Adam

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Re: Bamber controlling a fully fit Sheila.
« Reply #130 on: March 27, 2022, 06:52:AM »
Do you know what page it's mentioned on, please Snow?

If what Adam says is anything to go by, Carol Ann Lee's source may be Roger Wilkes, in which case it can probably be dismissed as Mr Wilkes' book is unreferenced and largely unsourced and he exercises a considerable degree of licence, even inventing remarks or incidents that never occurred. 

The Wilkes and Lee books have their merits and should be read by everybody interested in the case, but both authors have damaged understanding of the case due to their tendency towards licence.  Even I occasionally lapse into error due to the influence of the books and I will say something that in my mind is fact but which actually came from a book and is a misrepresentation or flat out wrong.  Both authors should be read, but read with due caution.

Unfortunately, I do not have Michael Horsnell's statement.  I see from a search of the Forum that I have in the past asked a member on here for a copy of it as he kept quoting it, but a copy was not forthcoming and I suspect he based his views on Carol Ann Lee.

If there is a statement (there may not be), Mike will almost-certainly have it.

No. I said Wilkes & CAL have said the same thing in their respected books - a zombie.The source would be PB or DB.

Horsnell is in CAL's book.

Sheila needing help getting up from sofa's a week before the massacre is from CAL.

Bamber's WS says Sheila was non responsive at supper.

The crime scene & Bamber's appearance around 1 hour after the massacre showed no sign of a struggle from Sheila.

The powerful side effects of Haloperiodal had made Sheila very docile & uncordinated on the night. A bonus for Bamber. He was going ahead regardless but was now so excited after his reconnaissance he broke a 3 day silence & rang Julie as soon as he got home.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2022, 07:22:AM by Adam »
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline lookout

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Re: Bamber controlling a fully fit Sheila.
« Reply #131 on: March 27, 2022, 08:26:AM »
Uncoordinated======random, frenzied shooting !

Offline mike tesko

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Re: Bamber controlling a fully fit Sheila.
« Reply #132 on: March 27, 2022, 10:20:AM »
What 'if'..

'NEVILLE BAMBER', or 'JUNE BAMBER' instigated the shooting of other close family members, and that 'the aftermath of what had taken place' was in effect, a result of 'a police training exercise' [ 'INFORMATIVES'] in which the officers who took part in this unprecedented exercise, fired live rounds from their weapons into the bodies of dead, dying, or wounded victims?
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline Jane

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Re: Bamber controlling a fully fit Sheila.
« Reply #133 on: March 27, 2022, 10:35:AM »
What 'if'..

'NEVILLE BAMBER', or 'JUNE BAMBER' instigated the shooting of other close family members, and that 'the aftermath of what had taken place' was in effect, a result of 'a police training exercise' [ 'INFORMATIVES'] in which the officers who took part in this unprecedented exercise, fired live rounds from their weapons into the bodies of dead, dying, or wounded victims?


'Your truth', 'my truth', 'this'/ 'that', and 'everybody's truth', does 'NOT' prove or establish what the 'ACTUAL TRUTH', is or could be!
 
« Last Edit: March 27, 2022, 12:18:PM by mike tesko »

Offline mike tesko

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Re: Bamber controlling a fully fit Sheila.
« Reply #134 on: March 27, 2022, 10:52:AM »
Do you know what page it's mentioned on, please Snow?

If what Adam says is anything to go by, Carol Ann Lee's source may be Roger Wilkes, in which case it can probably be dismissed as Mr Wilkes' book is unreferenced and largely unsourced and he exercises a considerable degree of licence, even inventing remarks or incidents that never occurred. 

The Wilkes and Lee books have their merits and should be read by everybody interested in the case, but both authors have damaged understanding of the case due to their tendency towards licence.  Even I occasionally lapse into error due to the influence of the books and I will say something that in my mind is fact but which actually came from a book and is a misrepresentation or flat out wrong.  Both authors should be read, but read with due caution.

Unfortunately, I do not have Michael Horsnell's statement.  I see from a search of the Forum that I have in the past asked a member on here for a copy of it as he kept quoting it, but a copy was not forthcoming and I suspect he based his views on Carol Ann Lee.

If there is a statement (there may not be), Mike will almost-certainly have it.

I will sift through, the 50,000 documents in my possession, to try and resolve this 'matter/issue'....
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...