Liklihood of Sheila resisting during the massacre:

[guest29835]

Did the prosecution make a big thing about Sheila being sedated on the night of the murders Gascoigne?

They did.  It is mentioned in Dr. Ferguson's statements, which the jury would have been expected to read.  Unfortunately, I do not have Dr. Ferguson's trial evidence.  It seems that is not available, but we do have the transcript of evidence from the defence psychiatrist, Dr. Bradley, and he was asked about sedation in cross-examination by Mr Arlidge.

I am not saying that the prosecution case depended on it, and contrary to what Adam claims, they never asserted it as fact that she was sedated, but they did make something of it.

[guest29835]

Of course. Why should it?

Bamber was going ahead with his 'watertight' plan. Regardless of Sheila's condition on the night.

If Sheila was very docile, it was a bonus for him.

Why should it?  Well, you're the one who keeps banging on about it.  That's partly why we're discussing it.  You keep bringing it up.  You also misquote from the 2002 appeal judgment and keeping claiming that it is a fact she was sedated, when literally nobody has ever said that.

[Jane]

Hi Roch,nice weather.Having looked through the witness statements,i think your opinion about Sheila is more likely to be true,as opposed to Adams.Anne Eaton said that she saw Sheila about 3 weeks before the murders,and that she looked well and appeared to be in good health.So no mention of odd behaviour or being withdrawn.Now,if Sheila received her last Haloperidol injection on 11th July,it was only a few days later that Anne saw her.Therefore it is reasonable to assume sedation and being withdrawn were NOT side effects of the drug.Let us go forward to the 3rd Aug at Colins party,by then Sheila was withdrawn staring out of a window.On 4th Aug while driving to Whitehouse farm,Sheila didnt speak one word to Colin or the boys.Now to Dr Fergusons hand written statement from 30 Sep 1985.In trying to ascertain what caused Sheila to become withdrawn and lack any feeling,he wrote the folowing.-------I have been asked to comment upon the report that Sheila was said on 6th Aug 1985 to have had no interest in anything,including the twins.Her attitude towards the twins had always appeared to me caring,and there was no evident lack of feeling.A possible side effect of Haloperidol is a general deadening of feeling and interest.I am told that her last injection of Haldol was on 11th July 1985 when she received half the original dosage.If such lack of interest and feeling had not shown itself EARLIER, it is LESS LIKELY TO BE A SIDE EFFECT OF THE DRUG bearing in mind the reduction of dosage and the fact that some FOUR WEEKS had elapsed since her last injection,if that feeling WAS NOT attributed to the drug,we would therefore have to interprit her lack of interest in the children as PART OF HER GENERAL AND DISTURBED MENTAL STATE-----------So taking all this into account,it would seem when Sheila newly received her Haloperidol,she was in good spirits and had no side effects,as witnessed by Anne Eaton for one.But a fortnight or so later at Colins party and until her death,she had no interest and was withdrawn.Surely this along with Fergusons statement strongly suggests that her withdrawn state was not a side effect of the Haloperidol,and the effectiveness in controlling her illness was waining,especially after being reduced.Clearly Ferguson is saying her withdrawn state was her psychosis creeping back.So it looks far more likely that your theory of Sheilas state on the 7th Aug is true Roch.And Adams claims of being docile and sedated do not hold up.

It seems to me you may have misinterpreted the good doctors words here. Can you please point to where he claimed, clearly or otherwise, that Sheila's psychosis was creeping back. Perhaps you're putting your thoughts in his mouth? If you read what he actually says, he indicates that she was overmedicated, hence the reduction.
 

[Adam]

Going around in circles with Sheila's condition a bit. Appreciate supporters will fight this.

Bamber was going ahead regardless of Sheila's condition on the night.

However the WS's, crime scene & Bamber's phone call to Julie suggest Haloperiodal had made Sheila very docile on the night. 

[snow66!]

They did.  It is mentioned in Dr. Ferguson's statements, which the jury would have been expected to read.  Unfortunately, I do not have Dr. Ferguson's trial evidence.  It seems that is not available, but we do have the transcript of evidence from the defence psychiatrist, Dr. Bradley, and he was asked about sedation in cross-examination by Mr Arlidge.

I am not saying that the prosecution case depended on it, and contrary to what Adam claims, they never asserted it as fact that she was sedated, but they did make something of it.

Thanks Gascoigne,one of his statements did say that Sheila may have slept very deeply.But then,if JB was found to be innocent,this would not look good for neither Ferguson or the NHS,because the reduction of Haloperidol would have been blamed for Sheilas actions.

[snow66!]

It seems to me you may have misinterpreted the good doctors words here. Can you please point to where he claimed, clearly or otherwise, that Sheila's psychosis was creeping back. Perhaps you're putting your thoughts in his mouth? If you read what he actually says, he indicates that she was overmedicated, hence the reduction.

Hi Jane,hope your good,Well if Sheila was withdrawn and acting oddly,what else could be to blame.Ferguson made it clear it wasnt side effects of the Haloperidol.If it was depression,that would have been part of the spectrum or umbrella if you like,of her mental problems.

[Adam]

Bamber spent months planning - checking windows, checking wills, stealing June's bike.

He's not going to bottle it just because Sheila isn't docile.

However the WS's & crime scene suggest Sheila was very docile due to the Haloperiodal. 

[snow66!]

Bamber spent months planning - checking windows, checking wills, stealing June's bike.

He's not going to bottle it just because Sheila isn't docile.

However the WS's & crime scene suggest Sheila was very docile.

Hi Adam.You have made it very,very,very clear what your views are about Sheilas docile condition and what caused it.Also that her condition was irrelivent to JB,he was going for it whatever.But there is still those of us who are less than convinced with your scenario.

[guest29835]

Going around in circles with Sheila's condition a bit. Appreciate supporters will fight this.

Bamber was going ahead regardless of Sheila's condition on the night.

However the WS's, crime scene & Bamber's phone call to Julie suggest Haloperiodal had made Sheila very docile on the night.

You have for years on here asserted as fact that Sheila was sedated, when it appears even the prosecution at trial did not keep to this position.

[guest29835]

Hi Adam.You have made it very,very,very clear what your views are about Sheilas docile condition and what caused it.Also that her condition was irrelivent to JB,he was going for it whatever.But there is still those of us who are less than convinced with your scenario.

I'm not quite clear what the prosecution scenario could be if she is not 'docile'.  Adam seems to be saying that Jeremy was pumped-up to do it and willing to risk it.  But Sheila could have hit him or scratched him or fled or hid or anything.  Surely Sheila would have heard and been woken by the commotion with Nevill?  What about the twins?  They could wake and hide somewhere.  Much the same applies to Nevill, actually, given the way Adam posits that aspect of the scenario.

Of course, we're back to basic questions that have been discussed here at length.  The central problem with this case is that the deeper you look into it, the less safe it seems.  When a conviction is safe, it's supposed to be the other way round: i.e. when you look into it, any doubts are assuaged.  It doesn't bode well, in my view.  It's not as if we're raising bizarre or outlandish points here.  Nobody has mentioned aliens or Freemasons yet.  These are just normal points we are raising that the prosecution side can't answer and seem to get themselves into a terrible muddle over.  It does seem much more simple and straight-forward to say that Sheila murdered the other five, washed herself and killed herself.

[Jane]

Hi Jane,hope your good,Well if Sheila was withdrawn and acting oddly,what else could be to blame.Ferguson made it clear it wasnt side effects of the Haloperidol.If it was depression,that would have been part of the spectrum or umbrella if you like,of her mental problems.

What has that to do with your claim that Ferguson claimed "her psychosis was creeping back"? For depression to "have been part of the spectrum.....................of her mental health" depends very much on whether it was clinical, or as a result of life circumstances.

[snow66!]

I'm not quite clear what the prosecution scenario could be if she is not 'docile'.  Adam seems to be saying that Jeremy was pumped-up to do it and willing to risk it.  But Sheila could have hit him or scratched him or fled or hid or anything.  Surely Sheila would have heard and been woken by the commotion with Nevill?  What about the twins?  They could wake and hide somewhere.  Much the same applies to Nevill, actually, given the way Adam posits that aspect of the scenario.

Of course, we're back to basic questions that have been discussed here at length.  The central problem with this case is that the deeper you look into it, the less safe it seems.  When a conviction is safe, it's supposed to be the other way round: i.e. when you look into it, any doubts are assuaged.  It doesn't bode well, in my view.  It's not as if we're raising bizarre or outlandish points here.  Nobody has mentioned aliens or Freemasons yet.  These are just normal points we are raising that the prosecution side can't answer and seem to get themselves into a terrible muddle over.  It does seem much more simple and straight-forward to say that Sheila murdered the other five, washed herself and killed herself.

Exactly,Gascoigne.Sheila being the culprit solves a lot of problems.Problems the guilters simply cannot answer satisfactorally.

[snow66!]

What has that to do with your claim that Ferguson claimed "her psychosis was creeping back"? For depression to "have been part of the spectrum.....................of her mental health" depends very much on whether it was clinical, or as a result of life circumstances.

Well isnt that what he meant by ----part of her general and disturbed mental state-----Wasnt this reffering to her psychosis Jane?

[Adam]

You have for years on here asserted as fact that Sheila was sedated, when it appears even the prosecution at trial did not keep to this position.

Well I posted the quotes on the COA. There are other sources.

Anyway the facts are -

Sheila was on Haloperiodal. A very powerful drug.

Haloperiodal has sedative side effects. Along with many other side effects.

Bamber checked on Sheila during his reconnaissance. He was so excited he rang Julie as soon as he got home. Breaking a 3 day silence.

Julie's WS says Bamber said 'tonights the night' & 'it's now or never'.

Bamber's WS states Sheila was 'non responsive' at supper.

PB's WS said Sheila spent 3 minutes just saying 'yes/no' on the phone. Before June took the phone off Sheila.

There is no crime scene evidence Sheila put up any resistance.

[Adam]

Sheila 'maybe' scratching Bamber?

How did he summon up the courage? The reward was only hundreds of thousands of pounds.