Sheilas Two Shots

[lookout]

A vast reduction in the type of medication that Sheila had would render her condition as being dangerous because previous symptoms would return with a vengeance.

[Adam]

Cascoigne has not tried to hide he is QC. Which is very arrogant.

He is who he is & won't start posting 4 line posts. Although he will be itching to start his snide comments & smugness.

Surprising he is still here. Banned members will return in another guise on forums. If lucky this won't be spotted. Otherwise instantly re banned.

Banned members can contact forum moderators, apologise & ask to be reinstated. There is no way QC did that.

[snow66!]

Sorry but we are still in disagreement.  With respect, I am also quite surprised that somebody who has posted on this Forum for years has not read the toxicology report.  I read it before I posted on the topic, and it is also on the Forum.  I've just searched and I found it in 10 seconds. 

For your information, I am looking at the statement of the forensic scientist Mr Allan, dated 12th. November 1985.  In regard to Haloperidol, Dr. Allan states that Sheila had 0.55 micrograms per gram in her liver and 15 nanograms per millilitre in her blood.

I say 'virtually unmedicated' in relation to her last monthly dosage of 100mg - which is a lot in comparison to what was in her by the end.  We could instead say 'low-medicated' or words to that effect, but it's just semantics.

The link you provide is not to a full article, but to an abstract behind a paywall.  That means we don't know the context and basis of their opinion of what a low or medium or high dosage is.  Sheila's level is at the lower end of what the authors of the paper call 'medium' or 'moderate'.  Other clinicians may take the view that it is a low concentration. 

It is also not clear to me whether "plasma level" is a reference to concentration of the drug or dosage.  We'd have to read the article to know.  Furthermore, the reference is to plasma not blood - not the same thing.  It is likely that a blood level matrix would render a lower concentration.  (I accept it is possible that Mr Anderson may have used a plasma matrix to measure drug concentration). 

Furthermore, the abstract summary - such as is it - does not make clear what point the article is making.  It states in conclusion: "Only minor differences in clinical responses were noted among the three levels of haloperidol. These results imply that low or moderate doses of neuroleptics are appropriate for many acutely psychotic patients."  But what does that mean?  What are 'clinical responses'?  What was the state of the patients entering the trial?  The abstract is saying that someone can be virtually unmedicated and show little difference in 'clinical response' in comparison to someone who is moderately medicated or highly medicated. But isn't that nonsensical?  We'd have to know what they mean by "minor differences".  A minor difference to them could be a significant difference to you and me. We need to read the full article to make any sense of it. 

The article also does not address the points germane to the issue presently under discussion: which are whether she was 'virtually unmedicated' and whether there is any basis for saying she was sedated, but in any event, the abstract suggests that the article is neutral on the point I make. 

Sheila had her last monthly intramuscular dose on 11th. July 1985.  Again, in fairness, this was a few days later than I thought.  For some reason, I had in mind that her last dose was on the 4th. and the next was imminent.  Even so, she was approaching the end of her medication cycle. 

Despite your efforts, I am still left in the same position, which is as follows:

(i). There is no evidence that Sheila was sedated.  Sheila's medication was tranquilising and is known for having a low sedative effect, though admittedly Halioperidol can have a sedative side-effect, so it is possible she was sedated.

(ii). Sheila was approaching the end of her medication cycle.  The toxicology report confirms that Sheila had a low concentration of Haloperidol in her.

(iii). The toxicology report and the surrounding facts and knowledge we have about Sheila suggest that Sheila she took illicit drugs, both soft and hard.  Both Dr. Ferguson and Dr. Allan say this would have had no effect, but Mr Allan puts it in terms of the cannabis interacting with the Haloperidol, whereas Dr. Ferguson merely says that in his view the Haloperidol would not have been inhibited in its effect by the cannabis.  Neither of these experts were pharmacologists or psychopharmacologists.  Dr. Allan was a Chartered Chemist and professional toxicologist, whereas Dr. Ferguson was a psychiatrist.

Finally, please refrain from making personal comments and attacks.  I have no idea what you mean by "previous incarnation".

Did you notice in Dr Fergusons first statement on 9 Aug 1985 that Sheila appeared to be on 200mg of Haloperidol every FORTNIGHT initially,but it was changed to every MONTH at her request,so in a way it was actually halved twice.In the same statement Ferguson said the side effects of Haloperidol was that she would beSLIGHTLY sedated andmay also have slight muscle stiffening.Of course Fergusons statements changed when JB became a suspect,as did many others to suit a five murders case.

[guest29835]

Cascoigne has not tried to hide he is QC. Which is very arrogant.

He is who he is & won't start posting 4 line posts. Although he will be itching to start his snide comments & smugness.

Surprising he is still here. Banned members will return in another guise on forums. If lucky this won't be spotted. Otherwise instantly re banned.

Banned members can contact forum moderators, apologise & ask to be reinstated. There is no way QC did that.

I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about or who you are referring to, and I am not that person.

[snow66!]

What i meant to say,was it appears Sheila started on 200mg every fortnight,then 200mg every month,and finally 100mg a month[by mistake]Quite a reduction as Lookout says,not good for keeping the schizophrenia at bay!i

[Adam]

I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about or who you are referring to, and I am not that person.

Don't insult the forums intelligence.

[guest29835]

Did you notice in Dr Fergusons first statement on 9 Aug 1985 that Sheila appeared to be on 200mg of Haloperidol every FORTNIGHT initially,but it was changed to every MONTH at her request,so in a way it was actually halved twice.In the same statement Ferguson said the side effects of Haloperidol was that she would beSLIGHTLY sedated andmay also have slight muscle stiffening.Of course Fergusons statements changed when JB became a suspect,as did many others to suit a five murders case.

I agree with you and Lookout that the drop in her medication is important to consider.  Of significance also is that the drop on the 11th. July 1985 was medically negligent.

As I have stated, there is no evidence she was sedated.  Dr. Ferguson may have been of the view that she would have been, but that is just an opinion.  It doesn't mean she was (though please note, I accept it is possible she was).  What is "slightly sedated" anyway?  How do you distinguish that from being tired?  Jeremy must have been tired and drowsy after a full day at work on the farm, but that didn't stop him committing a massacre in the middle of the night - according to the courts.

I have just been trying to find a free copy of the full article that another poster linked to above about the relationship between clinical responses in psychotics and dosages of Haloperidol.  I still can't find a free copy, but I have found a report on a 1998 study by different researchers that suggests dosages above 18ng/mL are less efficacious and even counter-therapeutic.

[Adam]

Moderators need to confirm QC has gone. It is frustrating when there is silence after such contempt has been shown to the forum.

It is a straight forward re ban. Ditto if he re surfaces again next month.

He has other options so has re joined to disrupt & abuse.

[guest29835]

Moderators need to confirm QC has gone. It is frustrating when there is silence after such contempt has been shown to the forum.

It is a straight forward re ban. Ditto if he re surfaces again next month.

He has other options so has re joined to disrupt & abuse.

I have no idea what you are talking about.  I have not disrupted anything or abused anybody.  It is simply that I have expressed a different opinion to yours and Jane's and revealed that the facts are not quite as the guilt camp like to present them.  In particular, your glib explanation that Sheila was sedated has no basis in the evidence.  Rather than accept this, you both resort to personal attacks as you can't cope with it. 

If you or Jane have arguments to make that I should consider, then please add them to the thread.  If all you have are personal attacks, then people will see who the real villains are here.

[Adam]

The moderators have a hard job. Which they do voluntarily.

But have to say, giving a poster two short term bans, then a permanant ban in quick succession, then allowing such a disruptive poster to join again days later, is a surprise. Being silent on the issue disrespects all the other posters.

Holly had respect for this forum & the moderators and went on the Red forum for 10 years, then came back. Although I understand her ban here had been lifted anyway. 

[Adam]

It's no secret QC spends all day on here. His numerous posts take long enough to read, let alone write. He only goes quiet when questioned on them. So would have found it tough when banned.

I found it tough when the 606 football site closed down. But moved on.

QC will be well aware he deserved his 3 bans & there were no tears shed from other members. So needed to take the hit & move on instead of coming straight back. 

[guest29835]

Something else I forgot to mention is a phenomenon known to forensic toxicologists called post-mortem redistribution.  This is when antipsychotic drugs redistribute from the body tissues and organs into the blood after death.  Of course, we have to weigh this against the fact that Haloperidol continues to diminish according to its half-life after death.

[lookout]

Adam, it's you who's causing the unpleasantness-----as usual which is why I haven't posted much.

[lookout]

You were even nasty towards Rob with your usual sarcastic replies.

[snow66!]

Something else I forgot to mention is a phenomenon known to forensic toxicologists called post-mortem redistribution.  This is when antipsychotic drugs redistribute from the body tissues and organs into the blood after death.  Of course, we have to weigh this against the fact that Haloperidol continues to diminish according to its half-life after death.

Thats getting a bit too scientific for my brain Gsacoigne! Anyway,dont you think it sticks out like a sore thumb that every statement made after the case became five murders is very obviously changed and contrived to suit this.In the end Ferguson says Sheila was obviously OVER MEDICATED by the way she was acting.After all the reductions i the Haloperidol,you are expected to believe this.And what about the Procyclidene tablets for the side effects,did they just vanish never to be seen again,leading to the assumption or argument she never took them at all?