Author Topic: Sheilas Two Shots  (Read 28804 times)

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Offline Jane

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Re: Sheilas Two Shots
« Reply #240 on: March 16, 2022, 08:07:AM »
Still waiting for your revised JB scenario Adam? One that is at least plausible!

Can you explain why according to your preliminary scenario he did his very best to get caught? despite months of detailed planning.


Who, exactly, is saying he did his very best to get caught? To quote Snow, it's only your opinion. You fail to see that, but for the family constancy, and Julie coming forward, he'd all BUT got away with it. It's only now, with the benefit of hindsight, that his errors of judgement show. MOST of those being around overplaying his hand, a prime example of which was getting in through a window to retrieve his passport. Totally unnecessary, especially as it's said he knew he was being watched. He had a phone. So, too, did the family, the housekeeper, and the farm secretary. All he had to do was ask them to meet him there/drop the key off at Bourtree/leave the key at a designated place at the farm. He overthought it. He overplayed his hand in a big way. "They" didn't think he had to be innocent because he'd never have done it if he was guilty. "They" no longer needed to prove that he MAY have got in through a window. He'd shown them how he could do it.

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Re: Sheilas Two Shots
« Reply #241 on: March 16, 2022, 10:37:AM »
Severe drowsiness is the symptom of an overdose Adam,apart from that,i cant see the word sedation in any web article.

I stand by my comment #182 on this thread, and will repeat here:

Haloperidol can have sedative side-effects, but there is no evidence that Sheila was sedated.  In any case, being sedated does not in itself preclude her involvement in a massacre.  It is not the same as being asleep and could mean anything from feeling drowsy and numb through to actual sleep.

Now let me continue in a bit more depth, since I see there is interest in this topic on the thread.

One problem in discussing this is that the terminology is quite confusing and even medical doctors use the terminology incorrectly. From what I can gather, some antipsychotics are tranquilising, others are sedative in their effects.  Furthermore, antipsychotics that are tranquilising can have sedative side-effects if taken in high enough doses and/or if other factors are present.

Tranquilisation is not the same as sedation, however most run-of-the-mill medical doctors - GPs, most psychiatrists, etc. - will conflate the two terms and use sedation as a synonym for tranquilise, even though the two things are very different.  This is because the distinction isn't necessarily of great practical importance in their day-to-day work, so they forget.

Both tranquilisers and sedatives act to suppress brain activity and can result in drowsiness.  The difference is that a tranquiliser is not intended to induce the patient into the sleep spectrum and therefore will not normally be analgesic in its effect (though it can be), whereas a sedative will induce somnolence and is therefore analgesic. This distinction is quite important in the Bamber case, if you think about it.

Now let's consider the pharmacology of Haloperidol. 

Haloperidol is a first-generation antipsychotic of the butyrophenone type.  This makes it a tranquiliser, not a sedative.   The whole point of Haloperidol is to antagonise certain biochemical receptors in the brain in order to suppress neural 'excitement', and thus counteract the typical symptoms of a severe mental illness such as schizophrenia.  Haloperidol is a highly effective (but also highly-dangerous) antipsychotic and is perhaps the most commonly-used drug in psychiatric emergencies - typically when somebody goes nuts and needs to be injected and then sectioned.  As such, Haloperidol is not optimum for sedation and is never prescribed or used for that purpose, as it would not make much sense.  However, it is openly acknowledged that one of the adverse side-effects of Haloperidol can be sedation.  This seems to happen when the drug is administered in high doses or where there are contraindications or other factors present.

The presumed lack of analgesic effect of Haloperidol may be of significance to us because, remember, Dr. Vanezis was of the opinion that someone incurring a .22 flesh wound to the neck would experience great pain.

However, two further significant facts need to be considered in Sheila's case:

(i). The toxicology report shows that Sheila was almost-entirely unmedicated by the point of death.

(ii). There were contraindications because Sheila took recreational drugs and the toxicology report confirms that she was taking illicit drugs up to around her death. 

What we are left with is a complex picture, which I would sum up in the following way:

1. Haloperidol is not a sedative.  Dr. Ferguson uses slovenly terminology in his most important statement of 18th. September 1985, saying it has a tranquilising effect, which is correct, but then using the terms sedation/sedative, which gives an incorrect impression of the drug's effects on Sheila, implying that she was sedated and somnolent.  This is unfortunate but does not mean Dr. Ferguson was incompetent.  It is common for run-of-the-mill doctors to use the two terms interchangeably.

2. Sheila was tranquilised by Haloperidol, though the toxicology report shows that she was virtually unmedicated by the 6th./7th. August 1985. 

3. Even if Sheila was in a tranquilised state at the time in question, this in itself would not preclude her participation in violence and a firearms massacre.

4. It is possible Haloperidol also had a sedative side-effect on Sheila, perhaps due to over-dosing and/or contraindications such as illicit drug-taking.  It is furthermore possible that Sheila was in a sedative state during the evening of 6th. August 1985, but there is no evidence for this.

5. Even if Sheila was in a sedative state at the time in question, this in itself would not preclude her participation in violence and a firearms massacre.

6. When a Haloperidol regime is being withdrawn or reduced, it is strongly advised that dosage is reduced gradually.  Due to an administrative mix-up between the different doctors involved, Sheila's dosage was cliffed (at Sheila's own request).  It is plausible that this could have resulted in a worsening of symptoms and behaviour.

Offline snow66!

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Re: Sheilas Two Shots
« Reply #242 on: March 16, 2022, 11:28:AM »
I stand by my comment #182 on this thread, and will repeat here:

Haloperidol can have sedative side-effects, but there is no evidence that Sheila was sedated.  In any case, being sedated does not in itself preclude her involvement in a massacre.  It is not the same as being asleep and could mean anything from feeling drowsy and numb through to actual sleep.

Now let me continue in a bit more depth, since I see there is interest in this topic on the thread.

One problem in discussing this is that the terminology is quite confusing and even medical doctors use the terminology incorrectly. From what I can gather, some antipsychotics are tranquilising, others are sedative in their effects.  Furthermore, antipsychotics that are tranquilising can have sedative side-effects if taken in high enough doses and/or if other factors are present.

Tranquilisation is not the same as sedation, however most run-of-the-mill medical doctors - GPs, most psychiatrists, etc. - will conflate the two terms and use sedation as a synonym for tranquilise, even though the two things are very different.  This is because the distinction isn't necessarily of great practical importance in their day-to-day work, so they forget.

Both tranquilisers and sedatives act to suppress brain activity and can result in drowsiness.  The difference is that a tranquiliser is not intended to induce the patient into the sleep spectrum and therefore will not normally be analgesic in its effect (though it can be), whereas a sedative will induce somnolence and is therefore analgesic. This distinction is quite important in the Bamber case, if you think about it.

Now let's consider the pharmacology of Haloperidol. 

Haloperidol is a first-generation antipsychotic of the butyrophenone type.  This makes it a tranquiliser, not a sedative.   The whole point of Haloperidol is to antagonise certain biochemical receptors in the brain in order to suppress neural 'excitement', and thus counteract the typical symptoms of a severe mental illness such as schizophrenia.  Haloperidol is a highly effective (but also highly-dangerous) antipsychotic and is perhaps the most commonly-used drug in psychiatric emergencies - typically when somebody goes nuts and needs to be injected and then sectioned.  As such, Haloperidol is not optimum for sedation and is never prescribed or used for that purpose, as it would not make much sense.  However, it is openly acknowledged that one of the adverse side-effects of Haloperidol can be sedation.  This seems to happen when the drug is administered in high doses or where there are contraindications or other factors present.

The presumed lack of analgesic effect of Haloperidol may be of significance to us because, remember, Dr. Vanezis was of the opinion that someone incurring a .22 flesh wound to the neck would experience great pain.

However, two further significant facts need to be considered in Sheila's case:

(i). The toxicology report shows that Sheila was almost-entirely unmedicated by the point of death.

(ii). There were contraindications because Sheila took recreational drugs and the toxicology report confirms that she was taking illicit drugs up to around her death. 

What we are left with is a complex picture, which I would sum up in the following way:

1. Haloperidol is not a sedative.  Dr. Ferguson uses slovenly terminology in his most important statement of 18th. September 1985, saying it has a tranquilising effect, which is correct, but then using the terms sedation/sedative, which gives an incorrect impression of the drug's effects on Sheila, implying that she was sedated and somnolent.  This is unfortunate but does not mean Dr. Ferguson was incompetent.  It is common for run-of-the-mill doctors to use the two terms interchangeably.

2. Sheila was tranquilised by Haloperidol, though the toxicology report shows that she was virtually unmedicated by the 6th./7th. August 1985. 

3. Even if Sheila was in a tranquilised state at the time in question, this in itself would not preclude her participation in violence and a firearms massacre.

4. It is possible Haloperidol also had a sedative side-effect on Sheila, perhaps due to over-dosing and/or contraindications such as illicit drug-taking.  It is furthermore possible that Sheila was in a sedative state during the evening of 6th. August 1985, but there is no evidence for this.

5. Even if Sheila was in a sedative state at the time in question, this in itself would not preclude her participation in violence and a firearms massacre.

6. When a Haloperidol regime is being withdrawn or reduced, it is strongly advised that dosage is reduced gradually.  Due to an administrative mix-up between the different doctors involved, Sheila's dosage was cliffed (at Sheila's own request).  It is plausible that this could have resulted in a worsening of symptoms and behaviour.
Thanks Gascoigne.So you agree there is no way of knowing what state of sedation Sheila was in that night,and Adams claims of severe drowsiness,allowing her to sleep through the massacre and be aesily manhandled are only speculation.This is just a convenient thing to use,to fit a JB scenario and explain why there is no signs of Sheila fighting for her life or anyone elses.Also,as you say,there was not much Haloperidol left in her system by 7 Aug.And Sheila was also prescribed Procyclidene tablets for the side effects.The bottle of tablets must have been found at the scene,and surely it would have been checked if Sheila had been taking them,by the amount used.Her mum and dad would have been told what meds she was taking, and it is reasonable to assume that they would have made sure she took them,when under their care.And as Jane pointed out,her unresponsiveness and lack of interest may have had more to do with her depression rather than being sedated with drugs.

Offline Adam

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Re: Sheilas Two Shots
« Reply #243 on: March 16, 2022, 12:15:PM »
The person who knew whether Sheila was ready, was the last person to see her alive - Bamber.

He rang Julie when he got back from his reconnaissance. To tell her 'tonights the night' & 'it's now or never'.

A few hours later Julie & an operative at Chelmsford police station received a phone call...... It was Bamber.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2022, 12:37:PM by Adam »
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline snow66!

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Re: Sheilas Two Shots
« Reply #244 on: March 16, 2022, 12:40:PM »
The person who knew whether Sheila was ready, was the last person to see her alive - Bamber.

He rang Julie when he got back from his reconnaissance. To tell her 'tonights the night' & 'it's now or never'.

A few hours later Julie & an operative at Chelmsford police station received a phone call. It was Bamber.
Hi Adam.But as we have been discussing,how do you know Sheila was in a sedated state ready to sleep like Rip Van Winkle,and not simply in a state of depression.

Offline Jane

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Re: Sheilas Two Shots
« Reply #245 on: March 16, 2022, 12:43:PM »
Thanks Gascoigne.So you agree there is no way of knowing what state of sedation Sheila was in that night,and Adams claims of severe drowsiness,allowing her to sleep through the massacre and be aesily manhandled are only speculation.This is just a convenient thing to use,to fit a JB scenario and explain why there is no signs of Sheila fighting for her life or anyone elses.Also,as you say,there was not much Haloperidol left in her system by 7 Aug.And Sheila was also prescribed Procyclidene tablets for the side effects.The bottle of tablets must have been found at the scene,and surely it would have been checked if Sheila had been taking them,by the amount used.Her mum and dad would have been told what meds she was taking, and it is reasonable to assume that they would have made sure she took them,when under their care.And as Jane pointed out,her unresponsiveness and lack of interest may have had more to do with her depression rather than being sedated with drugs.


Snow, you speak of Sheila as if she were a child rather than a 27yr old woman. I have no idea why you believe her parents would have been informed about her medication. Sheila's boys may be said to have been in her parents' care, but as an adult, Sheila certainly wasn't and her parents had no right to know. Have you never heard of "Patient Confidentiality"? It would have been entirely Sheila's decision whether or not to tell them. I imagine, if the question had been raised, the most she'd have been likely to say was that her meds had been changed.

I'm not clear what you mean about there being "not much Haloperidol left in her system". If women forget to start the next cycle of contraceptive pills on the correct day, the chances are likely that she'll become pregnant. The cut off point for antipsychotics is far more flexible and isn't a case of immediate protected/not protected. This would have been built into the date given for her following injection. It wasn't something she was allowed to take into her own hands.

Offline Adam

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Re: Sheilas Two Shots
« Reply #246 on: March 16, 2022, 12:51:PM »
Hi Adam.But as we have been discussing,how do you know Sheila was in a sedated state ready to sleep like Rip Van Winkle,and not simply in a state of depression.

Bamber made the decision to committ the massacre. He only had a short window of opportunity.

Going by Pamela Boutflour's & Bamber's WS's, Sheila was ready.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2022, 12:55:PM by Adam »
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline Jane

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Re: Sheilas Two Shots
« Reply #247 on: March 16, 2022, 12:52:PM »
I really hope that we have not just witnessed about 10,000 lives lost, destruction of homes and infrastructure, plus 3 million refugees, for a deal that could have been struck beforehand.


I agree with you, but it may well have to be the best that can be hoped for, Roch. There can't possibly be a perfect outcome. I can't begin to imagine the resentment which will build up after the relief and gratitude that it's over. Country in ruins, lives lost, families bereft, beautiful and historic cities decimated!!!! It can surely only be a matter of time before the festering boil, on both sides, erupts again. Long live Ukraine and Ukranians.

Offline Adam

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Re: Sheilas Two Shots
« Reply #248 on: March 16, 2022, 12:54:PM »
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline mike tesko

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Re: Sheilas Two Shots
« Reply #249 on: March 16, 2022, 01:16:PM »
The person who knew whether Sheila was ready, was the last person to see her alive

The last people, to see 'that Sheila was still alive', were those police officers who are responsible for carrying out 'INFORMATIVES' [9.13am - 10.00am]..
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline snow66!

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Re: Sheilas Two Shots
« Reply #250 on: March 16, 2022, 01:43:PM »

Snow, you speak of Sheila as if she were a child rather than a 27yr old woman. I have no idea why you believe her parents would have been informed about her medication. Sheila's boys may be said to have been in her parents' care, but as an adult, Sheila certainly wasn't and her parents had no right to know. Have you never heard of "Patient Confidentiality"? It would have been entirely Sheila's decision whether or not to tell them. I imagine, if the question had been raised, the most she'd have been likely to say was that her meds had been changed.

I'm not clear what you mean about there being "not much Haloperidol left in her system". If women forget to start the next cycle of contraceptive pills on the correct day, the chances are likely that she'll become pregnant. The cut off point for antipsychotics is far more flexible and isn't a case of immediate protected/not protected. This would have been built into the date given for her following injection. It wasn't something she was allowed to take into her own hands.
Yes,i fully understand all that you have said Jane,but the simple question is whether or not she was in a severely drowsy,sedated state to sleep through a shooting and have no strength to fight for her life.And it was Gascoigne who said she would not have much Haloperidol left in her system Jane,see his post above.

Offline snow66!

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Re: Sheilas Two Shots
« Reply #251 on: March 16, 2022, 01:46:PM »

Snow, you speak of Sheila as if she were a child rather than a 27yr old woman. I have no idea why you believe her parents would have been informed about her medication. Sheila's boys may be said to have been in her parents' care, but as an adult, Sheila certainly wasn't and her parents had no right to know. Have you never heard of "Patient Confidentiality"? It would have been entirely Sheila's decision whether or not to tell them. I imagine, if the question had been raised, the most she'd have been likely to say was that her meds had been changed.

I'm not clear what you mean about there being "not much Haloperidol left in her system". If women forget to start the next cycle of contraceptive pills on the correct day, the chances are likely that she'll become pregnant. The cut off point for antipsychotics is far more flexible and isn't a case of immediate protected/not protected. This would have been built into the date given for her following injection. It wasn't something she was allowed to take into her own hands.
Gascoigne says the toxicology report says Sheila was virtually unmedicated by 6/7 Aug.

Offline Jane

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Re: Sheilas Two Shots
« Reply #252 on: March 16, 2022, 01:50:PM »
Gascoigne says the toxicology report says Sheila was virtually unmedicated by 6/7 Aug.


That's his view. I doubt that any doctor would agree.

Offline snow66!

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Re: Sheilas Two Shots
« Reply #253 on: March 16, 2022, 02:17:PM »

That's his view. I doubt that any doctor would agree.
I dont know what the Doctors agreed Jane,but remember the Haloperidol was HALVED by mistake.

Offline Jane

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Re: Sheilas Two Shots
« Reply #254 on: March 16, 2022, 02:46:PM »
I dont know what the Doctors agreed Jane,but remember the Haloperidol was HALVED by mistake.


You may call it "HALVED". Those with greater knowledge will call it and acceptable and appropriate dose.