Sheilas Two Shots

[Rob_]

As the old sayings go; there's more than one way to skin a rabbit, and, if at first you don't succeed, try, try, try again. He only had to "try again" once.

Come on Jane you can do better than this? the reason for the shots under the chin was due to the length of the rifle, it was about the only way Sheila got manage the shot.

[snow66!]

The guilters want it all ways Snow don't they, if Sheila tried to deflect any part of the rifle against a vastly stronger killer it would be the barrel end not the stock end. You would naturally grab the barrel end to save yourself?

The two shots were very close together, so I think we can say there was no struggle for the rifle which to me points to suicide.

Hi Rob,yes,i think i have also poined out all that,but to no avail.

[Jane]

Come on Jane you can do better than this? the reason for the shots under the chin was due to the length of the rifle, it was about the only way Sheila got manage the shot.

But one shot with the barrel in her mouth, would have lessened the rifle's length, and would have ensured her death with ease. I've noted that NONE of Snow's numerous questions have related to what other methods Sheila might have employed to -allegedly- ease her exit. Shooting under one's neck is neither an accepted, nor convenient way of committing suicide -even with a handgun- but the next best thing if the potential suicide/victim refuses to open their mouth.
 Whilst Snow is busy working out logistics and angles, he seems to have forgotten that there was a woman in that room who, despite claims that she committed suicide, seems to have made her death as difficult as possible to accomplish, and a man who, despite her lack of cooperation, was determined she would die. Neither would have been concerned with logistics. 

[snow66!]

But one shot with the barrel in her mouth, would have lessened the rifle's length, and would have ensured her death with ease. I've noted that NONE of Snow's numerous questions have related to what other methods Sheila might have employed to -allegedly- ease her exit. Shooting under one's neck is neither an accepted, nor convenient way of committing suicide -even with a handgun- but the next best thing if the potential suicide/victim refuses to open their mouth.
 Whilst Snow is busy working out logistics and angles, he seems to have forgotten that there was a woman in that room who, despite claims that she committed suicide, seems to have made her death as difficult as possible to accomplish, and a man who, despite her lack of cooperation, was determined she would die. Neither would have been concerned with logistics.

Hi Jane,how are you today,its nice and sunny here,Well if i may answer your questions.As for putting thr barrel of the rifle in Sheilas mouth,to be quite honest,until you mentioned this yesterday,the possibility of this never entered my head.I myself have done no research on this method and have no idea how common it is.I agree it would shorten the length of the barrel slightly.As for shooting ones self under the chin not being accepted as a way of commiting suicide,i think i would need some kind of evidence.I dont recall anyones statement mentioning this,nor it being argued at trial.But i will also check this out.As for Sheila refusing to open her mouth,who knows,depends who pulled the trigger dosent it.As for the logistics,i still say JBif guilty,made a seriously stupid and unnecessary mistake ,not firing the first shot into Sheilas brain.Logistics and angles dosent really come into it,his eyes told him where the rifle was pointed,and it simply wasnt pointed up into her head.It was a mile off.Oh well hope thats answered some of your queries Jane.

[Jane]

Hi Jane,how are you today,its nice and sunny here,Well if i may answer your questions.As for putting thr barrel of the rifle in Sheilas mouth,to be quite honest,until you mentioned this yesterday,the possibility of this never entered my head.I myself have done no research on this method and have no idea how common it is.I agree it would shorten the length of the barrel slightly.As for shooting ones self under the chin not being accepted as a way of commiting suicide,i think i would need some kind of evidence.I dont recall anyones statement mentioning this,nor it being argued at trial.But i will also check this out.As for Sheila refusing to open her mouth,who knows,depends who pulled the trigger dosent it.As for the logistics,i still say JBif guilty,made a seriously stupid and unnecessary mistake ,not firing the first shot into Sheilas brain.Logistics and angles dosent really come into it,his eyes told him where the rifle was pointed,and it simply wasnt pointed up into her head.It was a mile off.Oh well hope thats answered some of your queries Jane.

Are you actually saying you require statistical evidence of suicide by shooting into the mouth as opposed to neck, and are you actually going to claim that, if you can't/don't find it, such doesn't occur? When it comes down to what individuals do, stats really aren't relevant. Too many variables involved. JB only had control of the rifle. He didn't have control of Sheila's head or mouth. So WHAT if he made a mistake? I don't think anyone here would question it. As I said previously, a double shot suicide is not classic text book.  I'm not sure what it is you're attempting to prove here. Have you ever said?

[snow66!]

Are you actually saying you require statistical evidence of suicide by shooting into the mouth as opposed to neck, and are you actually going to claim that, if you can't/don't find it, such doesn't occur? When it comes down to what individuals do, stats really aren't relevant. Too many variables involved. JB only had control of the rifle. He didn't have control of Sheila's head or mouth. So WHAT if he made a mistake? I don't think anyone here would question it. As I said previously, a double shot suicide is not classic text book.  I'm not sure what it is you're attempting to prove here. Have you ever said?

Hi Jane,what i am basically saying is,this is the one shot he simply could not afford to make a mistake with.He had planned it out for god knows how long.To shoot her in the neck instead of up into the brain makes no sense.And if there was that much of a struggle to cause the mistake,it goes against what the prosecution and pro guilt people have argued up untill now.

[Jane]

Hi Jane,what i am basically saying is,this is the one shot he simply could not afford to make a mistake with.He had planned it out for god knows how long.To shoot her in the neck instead of up into the brain makes no sense.And if there was that much of a struggle to cause the mistake,it goes against what the prosecution and pro guilt people have argued up untill now.

I'm certain you don't need to be told that people make the biggest mistakes whilst undertaking those tasks they simply can't afford to get wrong. We KNOW he made a mistake. Mistakes happen. What was he going to do about it? It was done. Actually, he did exactly what you want to claim an already mortally injured Sheila did. Shoot again.

[snow66!]

I seem to be getting some criticism for quoting the angles that the shots were fired into the victims.But for me this is critical evidence.Let me give an example.Take Nevil,shots 3 and 4 were fired into the top of his head.Now the only way it was possible for JB or SSheila to inflict the wounds,was if Nevill was sitting down or bent over at the time.Otherwise,if Nevill was standind up,JB or Sheila would need to be up a ladder to inflict the shots.Surely this is easy to grasp.So therefore we can easily determine roughly what position each of the victims were in when each shot was fired. Agreed?

[snow66!]

I'm certain you don't need to be told that people make the biggest mistakes whilst undertaking those tasks they simply can't afford to get wrong. We KNOW he made a mistake. Mistakes happen. What was he going to do about it? It was done. Actually, he did exactly what you want to claim an already mortally injured Sheila did. Shoot again.

Well we dont really know if HE made the mistake, or if it was Sheila,Do we Jane.

[Jane]

Well we dont really know if HE made the mistake, or if it was Sheila,Do we Jane.

Had you read my last post, you'll see that I've allowed for both on the grounds that as none of us was there, we don't know and are unlikely to ever know. All we can do is regurgitate every supposition which has been made previously.

[snow66!]

Had you read my last post, you'll see that I've allowed for both on the grounds that as none of us was there, we don't know and are unlikely to ever know. All we can do is regurgitate every supposition which has been made previously.

Very true Jane,and each of us come to the most logical conclusion,as we see it.

[killingeve]

No Cutie,this is what i have personally worked out using a protractor.As i explained to Adam,there is a diagram showing the angles of the two shots to Sheila.page 2 of the case related photos,about half way down.Having re-checked the angles,i believe the fatal shot may be nearer 30 degrees than 25.But please measure the angles yourself Cutie,and see if you agree.Hope to speak to you later,bye for now.

As far as I'm aware the HO pathologist only put approx angles on wounds 5 and 6 to Mr Bamber.  If the angles hold the sort of importance you seem to think they do it begs the question why the HO and defence pathologists overlooked?  The defence pathologist pointed out Sheila's wounds were the only wounds that were inflicted upwards. 

How do you believe the angles might be able to assist the defence/prosecution in furthering the case with CCRC/CoA?

[snow66!]

As far as I'm aware the HO pathologist only put approx angles on wounds 5 and 6 to Mr Bamber.  If the angles hold the sort of importance you seem to think they do it begs the question why the HO and defence pathologists overlooked?  The defence pathologist pointed out Sheila's wounds were the only wounds that were inflicted upwards. 

How do you believe the angles might be able to assist the defence/prosecution in furthering the case with CCRC/CoA?

Hi Cutie,nice to hear from you,hope your well.You have taken a while to think things through i see.Quite right,good idea.Now,if you have been following what i have been saying,the approximate angles of the shots determine to a great extent,if the victims were sitting,standing or lying dowm.For example ,the shot to Junes knee must have been done while she was lying down.because the shot went in below the knee and exited further up the leg.If she was standing up,the rifle was far too long for a bullet to enter under the knee.Clear? Same with Sheila,the angle of the two shots determine to a great degree ,if she was sitting or lying down at the time.And obviously Sheilas two shots were upwards,she was trying to commit suicide,or someone was attempting for her,so no surprise there.Now whether it makes any difference to guilt or innocence the angle the shots were fired at,i have no idea.But the approx angles are there in the Archives for all to study,so why not Cutie? But really the only shot i am interested in at the moment ,is the first shot to Sheila,and why,if guilty,JB made such a poor job of such an important shot.Adam  says it wasnt a mistake,and he hit the target,but wont explain what he was aiming at.Jane says Sheila may have struggled and ruined the shot[controversal though,no chipped nails] or that JB simply took his eye off the ball thinking he was so close to a fortune.So after all your thinking,whats your opinion on Sheilas two shots Cutie.What happened?

[Jane]

Hi Cutie,nice to hear from you,hope your well.You have taken a while to think things through i see.Quite right,good idea.Now,if you have been following what i have been saying,the approximate angles of the shots determine to a great extent,if the victims were sitting,standing or lying dowm.For example ,the shot to Junes knee must have been done while she was lying down.because the shot went in below the knee and exited further up the leg.If she was standing up,the rifle was far too long for a bullet to enter under the knee.Clear? Same with Sheila,the angle of the two shots determine to a great degree ,if she was sitting or lying down at the time.And obviously Sheilas two shots were upwards,she was trying to commit suicide,or someone was attempting for her,so no surprise there.Now whether it makes any difference to guilt or innocence the angle the shots were fired at,i have no idea.But the approx angles are there in the Archives for all to study,so why not Cutie? But really the only shot i am interested in at the moment ,is the first shot to Sheila,and why,if guilty,JB made such a poor job of such an important shot.Adam  says it wasnt a mistake,and he hit the target,but wont explain what he was aiming at.Jane says Sheila may have struggled and ruined the shot[controversal though,no chipped nails] or that JB simply took his eye off the ball thinking he was so close to a fortune.So after all your thinking,whats your opinion on Sheilas two shots Cutie.What happened?

As many supporters believe she could have loaded the magazine without damaging her nails, I feel perfectly certain she could have managed to push the barrel aside without damaging them. It's quite possible she'd have used the heel of her hand. IF she'd tried to deflect it, that is!!

[snow66!]

As many supporters believe she could have loaded the magazine without damaging her nails, I feel perfectly certain she could have managed to push the barrel aside without damaging them. It's quite possible she'd have used the heel of her hand. IF she'd tried to deflect it, that is!!

Yes,point taken Jane,thats all very possible without breaking any nails.