Author Topic: The drop / pendant earring...  (Read 30878 times)

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Offline Roch

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Re: The drop / pendant earring...
« Reply #555 on: June 29, 2022, 01:58:PM »
Thanks there is no doubt to me anyway.

Vanezis seems to have a knack of getting mixed up in controversial cases. Four or five come to mind.


Offline Roch

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Re: The drop / pendant earring...
« Reply #557 on: June 29, 2022, 03:54:PM »
Indeed.  :-\

If they were runs that ended in congealed spots, then any proposed transfer theory has to be linked to the non-fatal shot. You believe she self administered two shots. So when she was repositioning her self for the second shot, why did the blood runs not change direction in accordance with her body positioning? Why did they just stop dead in their tracks?

Offline David1819

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Re: The drop / pendant earring...
« Reply #558 on: June 29, 2022, 04:06:PM »
If they were runs that ended in congealed spots, then any proposed transfer theory has to be linked to the non-fatal shot. You believe she self administered two shots. So when she was repositioning her self for the second shot, why did the blood runs not change direction in accordance with her body positioning? Why did they just stop dead in their tracks?

We have gone over this enough times already. Going over it yet again is not going to bring you out of fantasy world.

Offline Roch

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Re: The drop / pendant earring...
« Reply #559 on: June 29, 2022, 04:13:PM »
We have gone over this enough times already. Going over it yet again is not going to bring you out of fantasy world.

You're all over the place on this, and from where I'm looking, you have nowhere else to go. It's over. You're cornered and none of your answers have any substance to them. Your last suggestion was that Sheila grabbed a deceased June's throat, which is actually in contradiction to what Vanezis claims. You're so desperate to shore up Vanezis against counter claims, that you your self have now chosen a counter claim in order to do so. Yet you can't seem to see the irony in this. Also, you were forced to include that June was deceased when Sheila grabbed her throat, in order to steer clear of a fight scenario.

Offline David1819

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Re: The drop / pendant earring...
« Reply #560 on: June 29, 2022, 05:10:PM »
More from the idiot
https://empowerinnocent.wixsite.com/ccrcwatch/post/the-ccrc-jeremy-bamber-and-the-flawed-pathology-evidence-of-dr-peter-vanezis

I have e-mailed this article to Dr Vanezis. I would be surprised if he gets back to me. But its worth a try.  :))

Online Rob_

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Re: The drop / pendant earring...
« Reply #561 on: June 29, 2022, 07:59:PM »
Vanezis seems to have a knack of getting mixed up in controversial cases. Four or five come to mind.

PV does not come out of this looking to well, I know David disagrees but to my eyes the high res pictures of Sheila are damming to the Crown's case.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2022, 08:00:PM by Rob_ »

Offline David1819

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Re: The drop / pendant earring...
« Reply #562 on: June 29, 2022, 08:13:PM »
PV does not come out of this looking to well, I know David disagrees but to my eyes the high res pictures of Sheila are damming to the Crown's case.

Yet these pictures were used at trial. The only damning thing about them is the blood flowing down her dress and her face looking calm (like a suicide). And the indicators she died some time later than the others in the house.

Offline Roch

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Re: The drop / pendant earring...
« Reply #563 on: June 29, 2022, 09:01:PM »
Yet these pictures were used at trial. The only damning thing about them is the blood flowing down her dress and her face looking calm (like a suicide). And the indicators she died some time later than the others in the house.

I don't think we can know what was used at trial. We do not know the exact format or size or colour of what was used at trial.

Other than a select bunch of individuals, I very much doubt anyone at trial, including those acting for (or on behalf of) the defence; and including jury members, would countenance for one minute the possibility that a pathologist would conceal wounds indicative of a fight. The likes of Knight would more likely be concerned with causes of death and trajectories of bullets through organs and bone etc.

The image in the article with numbered wounds doesn't do some of the wounds justice. I think there are clearer images. I think Bill has been conservative in his article, to some extent.

Although I am a fan of some of David's work and posts on the case, he is completely adrift on this particular issue.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2022, 09:02:PM by Roch »

Offline lookout

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Re: The drop / pendant earring...
« Reply #564 on: June 29, 2022, 09:01:PM »
Will any of them ever admit that Sheila was let down very badly by those who were deemed professionals.?
A medical negligence case should have been set-up, because it was gross negligence that Sheila had been in the state that she was, starting with Ferguson.

Offline David1819

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Re: The drop / pendant earring...
« Reply #565 on: June 29, 2022, 09:44:PM »
I don't think we can know what was used at trial. We do not know the exact format or size or colour of what was used at trial.

Other than a select bunch of individuals, I very much doubt anyone at trial, including those acting for (or on behalf of) the defence; and including jury members, would countenance for one minute the possibility that a pathologist would conceal wounds indicative of a fight. The likes of Knight would more likely be concerned with causes of death and trajectories of bullets through organs and bone etc.

The image in the article with numbered wounds doesn't do some of the wounds justice. I think there are clearer images. I think Bill has been conservative in his article, to some extent.

Although I am a fan of some of David's work and posts on the case, he is completely adrift on this particular issue.

June and Sheila got into a massive brawl and inflicted 70 cuts on their arms and legs. Lets ignore the fact that all the bloodstains are actually bloodstains and thus appear as such. Lets ignore the fact DS Woodcock noted the bloodstains on Junes legs and never mentioned cuts. Lets ignore the fact the autopsy notes written on the very same day (prior to JB being a suspect) never mention cuts. Lets ignore the fact the deputy Coroner Mr Thompkin along with DI Cook and DS Miller never mentioned or noticed the 70 cuts despite being present at the autopsy. Lets ignore the fact Bernard Knight and Prof Leon Mcdonell realised they were bloodstains. Lets ignore the fact June was shot in bed half a dozen times while asleep thus contradicting the entire scenario. Lets ignore the fact Taff Jones and ACC Simpson never mentioned anything of this nature while trying to get the relatives off their back. Lets ignore the fact Vanezis stated in his autopsy notes that Sheila killed the other four victims and then herself. Then we must ignore the blood trials going down Sheila's nightdress that coincide with the runs on her arm. Lets ignore the fact Vanezis thought the murder suicide theory was "prevailing".

Lets claim the bloodstains are cuts and conjure up a huge conspiracy theory out of thin air to explain all the problems with this idea.

This is the key to JBs freedom! JB will be out by Christmas. Put money on it 👍

Online Rob_

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Re: The drop / pendant earring...
« Reply #566 on: June 29, 2022, 09:45:PM »
Yet these pictures were used at trial. The only damning thing about them is the blood flowing down her dress and her face looking calm (like a suicide). And the indicators she died some time later than the others in the house.

David these pictures we are seeing now I assume are high res scans? do we know what size images were used at trial and more important is there a list of which images were used?

Sorry I missed Roch's post he answered my question.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2022, 09:46:PM by Rob_ »

Offline David1819

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Re: The drop / pendant earring...
« Reply #567 on: June 29, 2022, 09:52:PM »
David these pictures we are seeing now I assume are high res scans? do we know what size images were used at trial and more important is there a list of which images were used?

Sorry I missed Roch's post he answered my question.

The blue folder (defence bundle) that contained the crime scene photos used at JBs 1986 trial appears in a 2005 documentary. Being held by his then defence advocate Giovanni Di-Stefano. That should give you an idea.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2022, 05:59:AM by David1819 »

Online Rob_

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Re: The drop / pendant earring...
« Reply #568 on: June 29, 2022, 10:24:PM »
Thanks David, in the full version of the photograph I notice there in no blood on the rug Sheila is lying on, yet quite a lot around it? Could the rug have been placed after?

Offline Roch

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Re: The drop / pendant earring...
« Reply #569 on: June 29, 2022, 11:16:PM »
OK, let's break this down...

June and Sheila got into a massive brawl and inflicted 70 cuts on their arms and legs. Lets ignore the fact that all the bloodstains are actually bloodstains and thus appear as such.


Why would it be a mass brawl? Why not a life or death struggle? If Sheila was the perpetrator as you believe... and the twins were at risk... and Sheila was at risk of suicide... and Nevill and June were at risk of receiving violence at Sheila's hands.. (basically any combination of the afore mentioned) then that is a fight or flight situation for June. As for any shots received on the bed by June.. such shots could have been received because she was cowering there exhausted after losing such a fight. We don't even know if any wounds were from an earlier incident that was somehow diffused. 

As for your second sentence - Bloodstains do not mimic cuts, gouges, grazes and nicks.  Nor does flowing blood cause indentations on the skin. Nor does flowing blood cause scrape marks on the skin.

Lets ignore the fact DS Woodcock noted the bloodstains on Junes legs and never mentioned cuts.
I find it hard to understand how there are cuts on June's legs without bruising.  However, I also find it hard to understand how the marks were formed, if all they are is bloodstains. We are referring to the horizontal marks on her shins here - not the self evident bloodstaining also present. A statement by Woodcock that includes mention of bloodstains is not problematic for the prosecution. If he ever did mention cuts, in theory it could have been removed from the final version.

Lets ignore the fact the autopsy notes written on the very same day (prior to JB being a suspect) never mention cuts.


Knight criticises Vanezis for not going in to enough detail regarding the gunshot wounds, adding the caveat that Vanezis would have been under pressure due to the multiple victims.  Perhaps Vanezis' views regarding who was culpable for the killings was coloured by the minor wounds, which tell their own story. However, since his main focus was the gunshot wounds, it's possible he omitted to mention the minor wounds.  Such an omission could have later been very helpful to the second investigation (the narrative of which, Vanezis was to some extent co-opted in to, by time of trial).

Lets ignore the fact the deputy Coroner Mr Thompkin along with DI Cook and DS Miller never mentioned or noticed the 70 cuts despite being present at the autopsy.


I expect Miller was thick as thieves with Ainsley and Cook, the actions of latter two having eventually led to complaints being submitted to the CCRC. As for Tompkin - is it your suggestion that he closely monitored events?  In any event, Tomkins did go along with the 4&1 theory, releasing bodies for cremation etc.  So I'm not sure what point you are making by including him here.

Lets ignore the fact Bernard Knight and Prof Leon Mcdonell realised they were bloodstains.


I think Knight would have been focussed on the gunshot wounds. We do not know the brief he was given by Rivlin. As for Macdonnell, whatever images he viewed, they were not sufficient for anyone to cotton on to the presence of wounds. This only came much later, after the release of negatives from EP photography dept, to CCRC, to defence.

Lets ignore the fact June was shot in bed half a dozen times while asleep thus contradicting the entire scenario.


See above. You do not know the circumstances of how / when June received the shots that she did. Claiming she was asleep sounds like an Adamisation. 

Lets ignore the fact Taff Jones and ACC Simpson never mentioned anything of this nature while trying to get the relatives off their back.


You do not know what either of these men said, when trying to get the relatives off their back. Unfortunately, neither Ann nor Robert went in to any detail about such conversations.

Lets ignore the fact Vanezis stated in his autopsy notes that Sheila killed the other four victims and then herself.

Probably because he saw all the wounds we are arguing about today.  It's not brain surgery.

Then we must ignore the blood trials going down Sheila's nightdress that coincide with the runs on her arm.

You will have to demonstrate this to help me and others understand what you're arguing.

Lets ignore the fact Vanezis thought the murder suicide theory was "prevailing".

In what context did he say this... and when did he say it?  Also see above.

Lets claim the bloodstains are cuts and conjure up a huge conspiracy theory out of thin air to explain all the problems with this idea.


No, let's just use our eyes and common sense.

This is the key to JBs freedom! JB will be out by Christmas. Put money on it 👍

Not really.. the article probably mocks the deferential attitude that the CCRC display towards original experts.  i have repeatedly said I think JB will die in prison.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2022, 11:42:PM by Roch »