Author Topic: Undisputed scenario for opening 9 bedroom shots.  (Read 9082 times)

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Offline lookout

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Re: Undisputed scenario for opening 9 bedroom shots.
« Reply #120 on: January 15, 2022, 01:27:PM »
You talk a load of crap,Adam ! I'm not listening to you----not that I ever did but you're monotonous !

Offline Adam

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Re: Undisputed scenario for opening 9 bedroom shots.
« Reply #121 on: January 15, 2022, 01:28:PM »
147. The precise sequence of the killings was unclear.

June Bamber was shot whilst still lying in bed but had managed to get up and walk a few steps before she collapsed and died by the main bedroom door

'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline lookout

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Re: Undisputed scenario for opening 9 bedroom shots.
« Reply #122 on: January 15, 2022, 01:30:PM »
Ignore !

Offline killingeve

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Re: Undisputed scenario for opening 9 bedroom shots.
« Reply #123 on: January 15, 2022, 01:41:PM »
You have clearly not read my posts.

My scenario is that June was not shot in bed, she was shot while standing (except for the last shot).  I must have repeated this now about 20 times.  It's Adam and Steve who say she was lying down or propped-up, etc. while shot.

We can't know if she was crawling around or not, but let's put it this way: if a lady in her sixties is shot six times, and she's still alive, she might well be crawling around.

If you wish to respond to my posts, please ensure you read what I have said first.  Please do not goad me on this Forum. 

As for June's body being moved, I've explained that too and I think the final recorded position of June's body strongly suggests she was moved.  I'm not inclined to enter into a constructive dialogue with you because, like Adam, you don't listen.  You're just here to jump in and 'correct' me for ego purposes.

Evidence must be interpreted.  If we were to just treat what experts say as rigid, immoveable, literal Gospel, there would be few or no criminal appeals.

Scenarios need to match the ballistics and pathological evidence.  Your scenarios do not match either.

Offline Adam

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Re: Undisputed scenario for opening 9 bedroom shots.
« Reply #124 on: January 15, 2022, 01:48:PM »
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,887.0.html

Page 1 has a photo of June's side of the bed. Confirming she was shot there.

Obviously both June & Nevill would be asleep when Bamber entered.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline Adam

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Re: Undisputed scenario for opening 9 bedroom shots.
« Reply #125 on: January 15, 2022, 01:50:PM »
Scenarios need to match the ballistics and pathological evidence.  Your scenarios do not match either.

QC's argument against my scenario is Nevill wouldn't run from a shooting Bamber.

Although the evidence shows he did.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

guest29835

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Re: Undisputed scenario for opening 9 bedroom shots.
« Reply #126 on: January 15, 2022, 01:52:PM »
The defence case is that Mrs Bamber sustained 8 gunshot wounds: 7 entry wounds, 3 exit wounds and 1 non-penetrating wound.  This is based on the pathological evidence that the gouge mark to her chest could have been caused by a non-penetrating wound independent of all others.

The above is supported by bullets found in the bedroom: DRH 35 x 2, DRH 5 and DRH 9: 3 from the exit wounds and 1 from the non-pentrating wound.  And casings: DRH 3,4,6, 7 x 2, 8, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14 and 43: 8 x gunshot wounds Mrs Bamber and 4 x gunshot wounds Mr Bamber.

The prosecution case is that Mrs Bamber sustained 7 gunshot wounds: 7 entry wounds and 3 exit wounds.  This is based on the pathological evidence that the gouge mark to her chest could have been caused by a bullet richochet from one of the other wounds.

The above isn't supported by the bullets found in the bedroom since four were found and the above scenario only requires 3.  It also means there's 1 casing too many.  Unless you buy into the theory that the rifle malfuntioned as Bamber was walking up the stairs and he ejected a casing on the landing or someone inadvertently carried it upstairs under foot or on clothing.  These explanations account for only 3 casings found in the kitchen when Mr Bamber clearly sustained 4 gunshot wounds there. 

The most straightforward explanation is that 1 casing (about 5mm x 5mm) was lost in the kitchen.  Mrs Bamber sustained 8 gunshot wounds: 7 entry wounds, 3 exit wounds, 1 non-penetrating wound with the four bullets relating to her gunshot wounds. 11 casings found in the bedroom and 1 on the landing relate to Mrs Bamber's 8 wounds and Mr Bamber's 4 wounds. 

Obviously I have not included the 2 casings found near Sheila's head as these clearly relate to her 2 gunshot wounds.

I don't believe we can entirely rely on the position of the casings and bullets, but if we are going to do so, then how do they demonstrate that Nevill was shot in the main bedroom?  It's being assumed that if there are four casings left, then four wounds must have been inflicted to Nevill in that same room, but the casings seem to be in the wrong place to account for that.  I appreciate that they will bounce off walls and so forth (one reason we can't rely on the position recorded), but if Nevill is shot in the main bedroom, there should be more casings on the bed itself and near Sheila's body, not in the area near June's side of the bed.  I suppose there is a possibility that Jeremy fired shots to Nevill while facing the exit to the main landing, and the cartridge cases then bounced off the northside wall of the main bedroom and ended up near where June's body would come to a rest.

I think either the casings have been moved within the main bedroom, or a combination of circumstances has occurred in which maybe one or two bullets were never recovered in the main bedroom and Nevill was shot on the main stairs and one or two casings have somehow ended up in the main bedroom, probably because they bounced off the walls and initially ended up on the main landing near the entrance to the main bedroom.  In either situation, the movement of the casings was probably accidental/inadvertent.

guest29835

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Re: Undisputed scenario for opening 9 bedroom shots.
« Reply #127 on: January 15, 2022, 01:53:PM »
Scenarios need to match the ballistics and pathological evidence.  Your scenarios do not match either.

Yes they do - broadly speaking.  No scenario, not even the prosecution's, has ever matched the evidence exactly, and your interpretation of the evidence may differ to mine!

Offline Adam

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Re: Undisputed scenario for opening 9 bedroom shots.
« Reply #128 on: January 15, 2022, 01:55:PM »
I don't believe we can entirely rely on the position of the casings and bullets, but if we are going to do so, then how do they demonstrate that Nevill was shot in the main bedroom?  It's being assumed that if there are four casings left, then four wounds must have been inflicted to Nevill in that same room, but the casings seem to be in the wrong place to account for that.  I appreciate that they will bounce off walls and so forth (one reason we can't rely on the position recorded), but if Nevill is shot in the main bedroom, there should be more casings on the bed itself and near Sheila's body, not in the area near June's side of the bed.  I suppose there is a possibility that Jeremy fired shots to Nevill while facing the exit to the main landing, and the cartridge cases then bounced off the northside wall of the main bedroom and ended up near where June's body would come to a rest.

I think either the casings have been moved within the main bedroom, or a combination of circumstances has occurred in which maybe one or two bullets were never recovered in the main bedroom and Nevill was shot on the main stairs and one or two casings have somehow ended up in the main bedroom, probably because they bounced off the walls and initially ended up on the main landing near the entrance to the main bedroom.  In either situation, the movement of the casings was probably accidental/inadvertent.

Because the casings are in there.

It was around 2am, Nevill would be in bed. His bed attire supports this.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

guest29835

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Re: Undisputed scenario for opening 9 bedroom shots.
« Reply #129 on: January 15, 2022, 01:56:PM »
Because the casings are in there.

It was around 2am, Nevill would be in bed. His bed attire supports this.

OK, so are you now conceding that artefacts such as cartridge cases and bullets can be moved around a crime scene unintentionally?

Offline Adam

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Re: Undisputed scenario for opening 9 bedroom shots.
« Reply #130 on: January 15, 2022, 01:57:PM »
I don't believe we can entirely rely on the position of the casings and bullets, but if we are going to do so, then how do they demonstrate that Nevill was shot in the main bedroom?  It's being assumed that if there are four casings left, then four wounds must have been inflicted to Nevill in that same room, but the casings seem to be in the wrong place to account for that.  I appreciate that they will bounce off walls and so forth (one reason we can't rely on the position recorded), but if Nevill is shot in the main bedroom, there should be more casings on the bed itself and near Sheila's body, not in the area near June's side of the bed.  I suppose there is a possibility that Jeremy fired shots to Nevill while facing the exit to the main landing, and the cartridge cases then bounced off the northside wall of the main bedroom and ended up near where June's body would come to a rest.

I think either the casings have been moved within the main bedroom, or a combination of circumstances has occurred in which maybe one or two bullets were never recovered in the main bedroom and Nevill was shot on the main stairs and one or two casings have somehow ended up in the main bedroom, probably because they bounced off the walls and initially ended up on the main landing near the entrance to the main bedroom.  In either situation, the movement of the casings was probably accidental/inadvertent.

Really?

Are you a crime scene expert?
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline Adam

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Re: Undisputed scenario for opening 9 bedroom shots.
« Reply #131 on: January 15, 2022, 01:58:PM »
OK, so are you now conceding that artefacts such as cartridge cases and bullets can be moved around a crime scene unintentionally?

Am I?
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

guest29835

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Re: Undisputed scenario for opening 9 bedroom shots.
« Reply #132 on: January 15, 2022, 01:59:PM »
Really?

Are you a crime scene expert?

Are you a crime scene expert, Adam?

Offline killingeve

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Re: Undisputed scenario for opening 9 bedroom shots.
« Reply #133 on: January 15, 2022, 02:00:PM »
147. The precise sequence of the killings was unclear.

June Bamber was shot whilst still lying in bed but had managed to get up and walk a few steps before she collapsed and died by the main bedroom door

There has never been any dispute that Mrs Bamber was shot x 2 with her head on the pillow and sustained either 3 or 4 gunshot wounds as she was lifting herself out of bed (3 or 4 disputed as above).  She then walked (or moved in some way under her own steam) around the bed to Mr Bamber's side and back again where she sustained the 2 immediately fatal gunshot wounds to the head where she was found. There's no evidence as to what position she may have been in just prior to sustaining the 2 immediately fatal head wounds.  Her body may have jerked and fallen awkwardly. 

Offline Adam

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Re: Undisputed scenario for opening 9 bedroom shots.
« Reply #134 on: January 15, 2022, 02:00:PM »
Both supporters & guilters have to accept the evidence.

Bamber shot Nevill & June 9 times in the opening bedroom salvo.

Which is not surprising as Bamber caught them by surprise.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.