Author Topic: If it wisnae him, who was it? Initial Reaction After Reading Case Summaries  (Read 14924 times)

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Offline nugnug

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i have yet to see any credible motive the story that luke killed jodi becouse she found out about a holiday with another  girl wont really wash they werent married,

a14 year old has no fear of being exposedas a love cheat.

guest29835

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i have yet to see any credible motive the story that luke killed jodi becouse she found out about a holiday with another  girl wont really wash they werent married,

a14 year old has no fear of being exposedas a love cheat.

So there was a speculated motive?  I did ask earlier on and nobody seemed to be able to come up with anything.

To be fair, you could turn that point around and argue that a 14 year old who is mentally-unbalanced could kill for that motive. 

But was Like Mitchell mentally-unbalanced?  Any evidence that he was?  Has he been assessed psychologically while in custody?

Offline Steve_uk

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So there was a speculated motive?  I did ask earlier on and nobody seemed to be able to come up with anything.

To be fair, you could turn that point around and argue that a 14 year old who is mentally-unbalanced could kill for that motive. 

But was Like Mitchell mentally-unbalanced?  Any evidence that he was?  Has he been assessed psychologically while in custody?
His devilish doodlings on stationery, taking recreational drugs, possessing a knife, the Black Dahlia drawings: not inculpatory in themselves singly, but given he was at the murder scene it's inevitable that every inch of his life to date was going to be scrutinized.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2022, 07:49:PM by Steve_uk »

guest29835

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His devilish doodlings on stationery, taking recreational drugs, possessing a knife, the Black Dahlia drawings: not inculpatory in themselves singly, but given he was at the murder scene it's inevitable that every inch of his life to date was going to be scrutinized.

I note all this and it is valid to raise it.  None of this equals mental disturbance exactly or an inclination to violence.  As we all know, some young people are involved in these sub-cultures and do no wrong.  But where did it lead him? 

Offline nugnug

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So there was a speculated motive?  I did ask earlier on and nobody seemed to be able to come up with anything.

To be fair, you could turn that point around and argue that a 14 year old who is mentally-unbalanced could kill for that motive. 

But was Like Mitchell mentally-unbalanced?  Any evidence that he was?  Has he been assessed psychologically while in custody?

he had to see doctors to seeif he was fit to stand trial they all said he was sane and not sufering from any mentel health issues.

Offline Steve_uk

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I note all this and it is valid to raise it.  None of this equals mental disturbance exactly or an inclination to violence.  As we all know, some young people are involved in these sub-cultures and do no wrong.  But where did it lead him?
I note he seemed to stare down a lot: maybe an overthinker? Sandra says he was in the top groups at school. I think his parents' divorce a year previously hit him hard. Maybe it was his way of proving his masculinity? Doctor Todd mentions a new relationship in his life: is it possible he was thinking along these lines and Jodi was now surplus to requirements? Had he led her over the wall on the pretext of sexual intercourse, with Marilyn Manson and Elizabeth Short in mind? He couldn't take her into his bedroom if it was full of his own urine stored in jars.

Offline Steve_uk

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he had to see doctors to seeif he was fit to stand trial they all said he was sane and not sufering from any mentel health issues.
If he was compos mentis this would explain the need in his own mind to clean up and cover his tracks. I'm reminded of the controversial case of Ronald True in 1922.

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he had to see doctors to seeif he was fit to stand trial they all said he was sane and not sufering from any mentel health issues.

You may have revealed more than you think there.  Why would he need to see a doctor at all as part of legal proceedings?  That's not typical.  Was it purely because of his age?  And you mention doctors in the multiple.  Were these psychiatrists?  Or general practice doctors?  Prison doctors? What?

Furthermore, an assessment of fitness to plead (which I assume is what you mean) is limited in scope.  It is a minimum bar assessment in which the doctor is evaluating whether the charged individual is mentally competent to plead on arraignment.  It doesn't necessarily detect mental health issues, especially latent problems of the kind that a more serious, in-depth examination by a psychiatrist might pick up over multiple sessions.

As usual, more information is needed.

Also, I did additionally ask whether Luke has mental health problems or a personality disorder now?  Does he?

I don't want to be leading, but if we are saying he is 'normal', then that has to cast doubt on the prosecution case.

I do say 'if', though.

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I note he seemed to stare down a lot: maybe an overthinker? Sandra says he was in the top groups at school. I think his parents' divorce a year previously hit him hard. Maybe it was his way of proving his masculinity? Doctor Todd mentions a new relationship in his life: is it possible he was thinking along these lines and Jodi was now surplus to requirements? Had he led her over the wall on the pretext of sexual intercourse, with Marilyn Manson and Elizabeth Short in mind? He couldn't take her into his bedroom if it was full of his own urine stored in jars.

Yes, I've heard that.  Not sure if that is another case myth or true, but I can confirm people do store their own urine like this.  It is a real phenomenon and a specific behaviour common among schizophrenics.  Regrettably, I cannot supply the source - it's something I read about 15 or so years ago when researching schizophrenia.

However, at 14, possibly he was slightly on the young side for schizophrenia, even for a male.  I believe it is normally 15 to 18 when it kicks in for male sufferers.

Maybe he was just weird? 

The sexual motive is good speculation.  I think if he is guilty, there needs to be an explanation for why he was able to walk around a built-up area and be seen without anyone noticing blood.  If he planned this, he may have undressed, but down to underclothes, then killed her before there was any sexual contact.  I may invite ridicule with that speculation - I'm still thinking about the case.

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Yes, I've heard that.  Not sure if that is another case myth or true, but I can confirm people do store their own urine like this.  It is a real phenomenon and a specific behaviour common among schizophrenics.  Regrettably, I cannot supply the source - it's something I read about 15 or so years ago when researching schizophrenia.

However, at 14, possibly he was slightly on the young side for schizophrenia, even for a male.  I believe it is normally 15 to 18 when it kicks in for male sufferers.

Maybe he was just weird? 

The sexual motive is good speculation.  I think if he is guilty, there needs to be an explanation for why he was able to walk around a built-up area and be seen without anyone noticing blood.  If he planned this, he may have undressed, but down to underclothes, then killed her before there was any sexual contact.  I may invite ridicule with that speculation - I'm still thinking about the case.

Just something I wish to add to this:

Sandra Lean is saying that the claim that Luke's brother burnt clothes in the outdoor log stove on the following night is untrue. 

Two pieces of evidence that lend support to what Dr. Lean says:

1. Luke was detained by the police immediately on discovery of the body, at which point he had been wearing the same clothes all day.

2. The log stove was forensically examined in July 2003 (the month after the murder) and no trace of clothing was found.

I suppose it is still possible that the following occurred:

(i). Luke committed the murder and returned home wearing bloodied clothes underneath his clean clothes (as I speculate in the immediately preceding post).

(ii). At some point, Luke takes off the bloodied clothes and disposes of them, putting the clean outer clothing back on.

(iii). Either Luke's brother assists him by burning the clothes and the forensic examination does not detect this, or Luke disposed of the clothes in some other way and Luke's brother was acting innocently and guilelessly when he utilised the log stove outside that evening.

One reason this seems unlikely is that there would surely be blood traces on the inside of the 'outer clothes', but were these ever forensically examined by the police, either at the time or later?

Offline Steve_uk

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Apparently the green Parka was never found. His mother allegedly bought him an identical one days after the murder.

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Apparently the green Parka was never found. His mother allegedly bought him an identical one days after the murder.

Yes, true, and this is where my developing case knowledge falls short as I remembered that but have had to double-check the detail of who says what about what somebody was wearing and when. 

Am I right in saying that the only witness who saw someone with a green jacket prior to the presumed murder time was Bryson?

Fleming and Walsh saw someone with a green jacket, but after.

Buying that jacket was a strange thing to do at that time of year (I understand he had bought it recently), but I assume it was a fashion thing.  I had teenage children and around about that time and up to, say, 2008/09, teenagers would wear 'retro-cool' clothes like that, a lot of it emulating 1970s fashions.  His mother tries to put a motherly spin on it, but looking at the jacket design, it's not anything unusual.  Lots of teenagers and people in their 20s could wear similar clothes, even in warmish seasons.

I'm inclined to think that if he did this, there would be blood all over him and he would not be able to hide it.  I am being conservative and pro-prosecution in assuming he did not get any blood on his face and in his hair and on hands and fingernails, etc.  Just clothes.  I then assume the parka went in the log burner or somewhere else.  This still leaves us with a problem.

Maybe he zipped up the parka after, but then how do we explain the Fleming and Walsh evidence, on which the prosecution relied?  They aver he stood there with his jacket open, casual as anything. 

More again, we also have to consider the inherent fragility of witness evidence, especially in a high-profile case that attracted media coverage.  Fleming freely admits she identified Luke Mitchell from a newspaper, which makes her evidence inherently unreliable - in my opinion.  One thing that also worries me slightly about the specifics of Fleming's evidence is that she refers to the person standing there with his jacket collar up, but if you look at Luke Mitchell's jacket (I assume it's the German Army parka), he wouldn't have his collar up.  The design of Luke's jacket doesn't seem to match her observations.

Offline Steve_uk

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If they both undressed for sex there would be minimal blood on his clothes. He could kill her high on drugs and then get dressed. I don't know. Post-murder I do blame the media in the interim, whoever the culprit was.

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If they both undressed for sex there would be minimal blood on his clothes. He could kill her high on drugs and then get dressed. I don't know. Post-murder I do blame the media in the interim, whoever the culprit was.

This is also where my thinking is going.  One problem with it is that it means she would have to be found re-clothed, which ought to compromise him forensically, yet no blood prints were found.  Maybe he 'cleaned' the scene?  I admit it's starting to become overly-contrived now, like I'm trying to make the facts fit the suspect. 

So far, for him to be guilty, I have him wearing two layers of clothes, with a green German Army parka-style jacket on top. 

They meet at wherever it was along the path, behind the wall, and begin undressing, and just as he has got her vulnerable, he attacks her.   

He kills her. 

Then he re-clothes her as necessary, being careful not to leave any blood prints. He doesn't care about latent fingerprints and DNA because he's her boyfriend and, all being equal, such evidence cannot incriminate him. 

He also doesn't care about transfer blood stains from his own bloodied clothing, as it's her blood anyway.  There is a forensic risk here, due to possible fibre transference, but he doesn't care about that either as he has already taken his outer clothing layer off and will dispose of the compromised clothing later. (Nevertheless, there is still a risk of secondary transfer fibres from other clothing of his, including the outer layer he has already taken off, but he probably doesn't think of it, or if he does, takes his chances).

He ties her up because he needs to stage this as a non-spontaneous killing.  His reasoning is that this should deflect suspicion from him (it doesn't, but that's another matter).

He then conceals his own bloodied layer of clothing with the outer layer and parka (or, in the alternative, he takes the bloodied clothing off now and conceals it somewhere there and then, to be collected later - though that seems doubtful, for several reasons).

He then returns home, but stops along the way at the gate to the path at the Newbattle end, affecting to be waiting for somebody.  This may be due to a vaguely-formed (and badly-thought out) idea that he needed to be seen standing around casually, so as to minimise suspicion on himself. 

If, as seems likely, he is still wearing the bloodied clothes, he takes them off at home.  He then lies to his brother about what has happened, perhaps saying he acted in self-defence, and his brother then burns the clothing.  Or his brother is oblivious and Luke has disposed of the clothing some other way.  At this point, he makes the decision to dispose of the green jacket as well, even though he was loitering around deliberatively in it at the Newbattle gate.  He also has to dispose of the knife.

There is the beginnings of a pro-guilt scenario.  Probably there are holes in it, as I am still researching the case.  It's probably also, as I say, overly-contrived and maybe too complicated for a 14 year old.