Are Assertions Of Sheila's Violence Founded?

[Jane]

Magnificent effort has been made to show that Sheila's Schizophrenia resulted in her violently killing her children and her parents. But Sheila didn't become Schizophrenic the day she was diagnosed. She would have been so long before that occurred. Much HAS been made of her, alleged, violence, listing alleged violence directed at the twins, violence, one one occasion when she slapped his face, directed at Colin, violence directed at herself, when she was in the grip of psychosis. None of which suggests, to me, a potentially violent person.

Several years ago, I was asked to contribute to a paper being written on a possible link between adopted children and Schizophrenia. Two of the subjects, both male, had shown violent tendencies long before diagnosis. In both cases the violence had been directed towards their mothers, both, at one point, involving knives. Both were diagnosed and medicated, both, as is not unusual with Schizophrenics, stopped taking their medication, both reverted to the previous violent behaviour towards their mothers. One of the mothers required some sort of protection whenever she visited her son. NONE of these behaviours describe Sheila, either prior to diagnosis, or after, but it occurs to me that she may have been justified in feeling violent towards June. It has been claimed that she was quick tempered. "Quick" tempers don't signify violent tempers. NO one, save those who wish to lay the tragedy at her feet, have ever made claims of her violence. Okay, Freddy "feared for my life"! Did she touch him? NO. She hit herself with her hairbrush! That action, and many years prior, putting her OWN hand through a window, appear to be the sum of her violence whilst being unmedicated.

Anti psychotic medication subdues. Sheila was medicated by injection. No chance of her forgetting to take it. It would be strange, indeed, if being medicated caused her, and possibly other Schizophrenics?, to BECOME murderously violent -or even slightly so- when they hadn't previously shown any indication of being such.

[JackieD]

Schizophrenia: Warning Signs of Violence
Topic Overview
While most people with schizophrenia are not violent,

violence is one of the reasons someone who has schizophrenia may need hospitalization.

It is a way to protect the person or those around him or her until the delusions or hallucinations often associated with the violence pass.

Common signs that can indicate someone with schizophrenia may become violent include:

Talking about violence, especially when directed toward specific people or groups of people (such as past coworkers) or places, such as churches or government buildings.

Talking, writing, or drawing about death and violence.

Having unexplained mood changes or behaving aggressively or violently.

 Aggressive acts may include teasing and taunting other people by calling them names; threatening, making fun of, or playing mind games with other people;

or making threatening phone calls.
Buying or talking about having weapons or other means, such as poisons, that could hurt or kill people.
Not taking responsibility for his or her actions or saying that the actions are justified because of how he or she has been treated.

Drinking alcohol or using illegal drugs more frequently.

Increased fears of other people (paranoia).

Telling someone that he or she hears voices telling him or her to hurt or kill another person.

[Jane]

Schizophrenia: Warning Signs of Violence
Topic Overview
While most people with schizophrenia are not violent,

violence is one of the reasons someone who has schizophrenia may need hospitalization.

It is a way to protect the person or those around him or her until the delusions or hallucinations often associated with the violence pass.

Common signs that can indicate someone with schizophrenia may become violent include:

Talking about violence, especially when directed toward specific people or groups of people (such as past coworkers) or places, such as churches or government buildings.

Talking, writing, or drawing about death and violence.

Having unexplained mood changes or behaving aggressively or violently.

 Aggressive acts may include teasing and taunting other people by calling them names; threatening, making fun of, or playing mind games with other people;

or making threatening phone calls.
Buying or talking about having weapons or other means, such as poisons, that could hurt or kill people.
Not taking responsibility for his or her actions or saying that the actions are justified because of how he or she has been treated.

Drinking alcohol or using illegal drugs more frequently.

Increased fears of other people (paranoia).

Telling someone that he or she hears voices telling him or her to hurt or kill another person.

All symptoms in evidence PRE diagnosis and treatment, sans medication.

[Armchair Detective]

Magnificent effort has been made to show that Sheila's Schizophrenia resulted in her violently killing her children and her parents. But Sheila didn't become Schizophrenic the day she was diagnosed. She would have been so long before that occurred. Much HAS been made of her, alleged, violence, listing alleged violence directed at the twins, violence, one one occasion when she slapped his face, directed at Colin, violence directed at herself, when she was in the grip of psychosis. None of which suggests, to me, a potentially violent person.

Several years ago, I was asked to contribute to a paper being written on a possible link between adopted children and Schizophrenia. Two of the subjects, both male, had shown violent tendencies long before diagnosis. In both cases the violence had been directed towards their mothers, both, at one point, involving knives. Both were diagnosed and medicated, both, as is not unusual with Schizophrenics, stopped taking their medication, both reverted to the previous violent behaviour towards their mothers. One of the mothers required some sort of protection whenever she visited her son. NONE of these behaviours describe Sheila, either prior to diagnosis, or after, but it occurs to me that she may have been justified in feeling violent towards June. It has been claimed that she was quick tempered. "Quick" tempers don't signify violent tempers. NO one, save those who wish to lay the tragedy at her feet, have ever made claims of her violence. Okay, Freddy "feared for my life"! Did she touch him? NO. She hit herself with her hairbrush! That action, and many years prior, putting her OWN hand through a window, appear to be the sum of her violence whilst being unmedicated.

Anti psychotic medication subdues. Sheila was medicated by injection. No chance of her forgetting to take it. It would be strange, indeed, if being medicated caused her, and possibly other Schizophrenics?, to BECOME murderously violent -or even slightly so- when they hadn't previously shown any indication of being such.

Great stuff and all fair points. I note that the CT and supporters often cite Freddy's statement but they appear to be considerably overtstating/ deliberately misrepresenting what actually happened and overlooking the fact that Sheila showed no signs of a sustained and focused period of violence against others that would be needed to carry out the murders. In fact, it could be argued, quite the opposite as she collapsed into sobs at regular intervals. 

The most damning evidence against her remains the trial testimony of her doctor. Everything else often seems more like a repugnant attempt to blacken her character than a serious assessment of her condition which is shocking because supporters are not known for baseless smearing of anyone else in the case!

[Adam]

Sheila was on Haloperidol. So very docile.

Bamber and Pamela Boutflour confirming this a few hours before the massacre.

[Munksa]

While Scott was researching and interviewing Bamber for his book, he asked him if he knew any incident where Sheila was violent TOWARDS anyone, as in physical.  Bamber simply said No. He was telling the truth for once.

I don't consider hitting yourself, pulling your own hair during an episode or throwing pots and pans or even slapinng a cheating husband violent. If it was my cheating  husband I will slap him not on one but both cheeks, probably a kick between his legs too and trust me I am not a violent person... 

[JackieD]

Jeremy was not there when the incident with Freddie happened

[Jane]

Jeremy was not there when the incident with Freddie happened

But Freddie was, and Sheila didn't touch him. Why, having already claimed to have "feared for my life" would he not have said that she attacked him?

[Jane]

While Scott was researching and interviewing Bamber for his book, he asked him if he knew any incident where Sheila was violent TOWARDS anyone, as in physical.  Bamber simply said No. He was telling the truth for once.

I don't consider hitting yourself, pulling your own hair during an episode or throwing pots and pans or even slapinng a cheating husband violent. If it was my cheating  husband I will slap him not on one but both cheeks, probably a kick between his legs too and trust me I am not a violent person...

EXACTLY! Violent tendencies, even under provocation, would have resulted in something far more lethal than a slapped face -which I believe to have been in retaliation because he'd hit her (which he admitted to and felt ashamed of) after she'd hurled a few pots and pans. It was nothing more than a 'domestic' which had escalated, but being in a kitchen, a truly violent person would have had their choice of weapons had they really wished to do damage.

[Munksa]

Jeremy was not there when the incident with Freddie happened

But Jeremy had heard from Freddie . He was " close" with Freddie.

[lookout]

People with Schizophrenia aren't normally violent but put into the mix with paranoia and you have delusions which can make them feel threatened or angry.  If/ when they are pushed over the edge, such as Dr Ferguson had suggested then actions are focussed on the family/ family members and not the public and these actions happen/ occur in the home.

Schizophrenia either goes away in time or it gets worse and is normally diagnosed at 18 yrs. to about 30.
Environmental frustration can spark aggression and a patient can become worse during an acute violent episode.

Assessment of Impulsivity and Aggression :
Availability of Weapons !

It remains impossible to predict with any certainty whether a patient will become aggressive-----------

[Munksa]

People with Schizophrenia aren't normally violent but put into the mix with paranoia and you have delusions which can make them feel threatened or angry.  If/ when they are pushed over the edge, such as Dr Ferguson had suggested then actions are focussed on the family/ family members and not the public and these actions happen/ occur in the home.

Schizophrenia either goes away in time or it gets worse and is normally diagnosed at 18 yrs. to about 30.
Environmental frustration can spark aggression and a patient can become worse during an acute violent episode.

Assessment of Impulsivity and Aggression :
Availability of Weapons !

It remains impossible to predict with any certainty whether a patient will become aggressive-----------

In this case Bamber would have known.if I remember it right he was also questioned about it during his interview and he has said no.

I think the post is about whether Sheila was violent, any evidence of it.

[lookout]

In this case Bamber would have known.if I remember it right he was also questioned about it during his interview and he has said no.

I think the post is about whether Sheila was violent, any evidence of it.

JB hadn't known very much about schizophrenia the same as it's not fully known about in the world of the mentally ill. His knowledge came from reading books about it while in prison. Initially it was just a word which was bandied about, to him without any depth of meaning.

I've pretty well answered why Sheila was violent. And I think everyone knows about her punching walls ----which isn't normal, for a woman in any case, besides putting her hand through plate glass .

[Jane]

JB hadn't known very much about schizophrenia the same as it's not fully known about in the world of the mentally ill. His knowledge came from reading books about it while in prison. Initially it was just a word which was bandied about, to him without any depth of meaning.

I've pretty well answered why Sheila was violent. And I think everyone knows about her punching walls ----which isn't normal, for a woman in any case, besides putting her hand through plate glass .

One of those occasions you mention -one minor minor incident and she's labelled violent?- was when she was extreme provocation, and she may not have been aware that it was plate glass. The other was whilst she was in the grip of psychosis, but unmedicated. Interesting too, that both incidents were directed externally, rather than at another person. I wouldn't label anyone as violent if those were the sum of their alleged violence.

[lookout]

One of those occasions you mention -one minor minor incident and she's labelled violent?- was when she was extreme provocation, and she may not have been aware that it was plate glass. The other was whilst she was in the grip of psychosis, but unmedicated. Interesting too, that both incidents were directed externally, rather than at another person. I wouldn't label anyone as violent if those were the sum of their alleged violence.

Untreated psychosis is associated with an increased risk of homicide.