Author Topic: Counting Conspiracies.  (Read 10885 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Munksa

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 505
Re: Counting Conspiracies.
« Reply #30 on: January 04, 2022, 11:14:PM »

guest29835

  • Guest
Re: Counting Conspiracies.
« Reply #31 on: January 05, 2022, 06:49:AM »
This is a list of conspiracies currently believed and/or promoted by JB and his official campaign team. Feel free to add any I have forgotten or disagree or hijack the thread with long standing personal vendettas that have no relevance to the case. I don't care.

I have tried to resist snarky comments but have failed in places, I think I am such a wit  :))

1) West, Bonnet, Myall, Saxby and Bews all conspire to hide evidence of Nevill speaking to West from the moment JB eventually speaks to West himself. Other officers may also be involved. The evidence that proves this is shown to the jury.

Here you invent a myth about a conspiracy.  The actual claim is that the conspiracy arose when Operation Raleigh began, or maybe in the run up to it, not at the point that Jeremy was on the phone.

To what extent such a conspiracy may have involved Myall, Saxby and Bews, is unclear to me.  They were merely the response officers in CA07.  I comprehend the point that the Campaign Team are making, that CA07 was a response to Nevill's call, not Jeremy's, but it does not follow from this that the CA07 officers were in on it as they would have just taken the situation as they found it and the source of the call would not have mattered to them, whether HQ or Witham or wherever.

2) Myall and Bews conspire to lie about the figure in the window. They hypnotise Jeremy into forgetting all about it for several months.

3) Bews radios in a situation report about the figure in the window and calls for armed back up. This information is immediately suppressed from all other officers subsequently at the scene in case they blab to Jeremy.

Again, you misrepresent things.  The allegation needs to be understood in context.  You speak of Jeremy forgetting about it, but the initial investigation concluded uncontroversially that Sheila was the culprit, as this matched the evidence found, so there was no reason for Jeremy to raise the issue.  It was only when Jeremy became a suspect that it became relevant. 

Against this background, your suspicions make no sense.  If Jeremy was lying about what occurred, then he would have claimed to have seen the figure himself and Bews and Myall would have denied the whole thing ever occurred.  Instead, Bews admits it occurred, and at one point even states he was the one who saw movement in the window!  It's on YouTube for everybody to see.  Some conspiracy that turned out to be.

4) 5.25 am - Sheila is in conversation with police, multiple officers conspire to keep this information from JB and suppress it afterward.

Well, they did conspire to withhold the log from the defence!  That is fact. Furthermore, the log quite plainly and in black-and-white states that the firearms team are in conversation with somebody from inside the farm.  It uses those very words.  They perhaps should have disclosed it and added a note that this was officers attempting to hail a suspect believed to be in the farmhouse, not in conversation with a suspect, and these efforts were to no avail. 

Also, if they were hailing to no avail and if there was no sign of life in the farmhouse, then why did they wait so long to attempt entry?  Did they lack the equipment and training to effect low light entry?  I appreciate that safety concerns are legitimate considerations, and anyone with a gun has to be considered dangerous, but ultimately, they were dealing with a young woman, not hardened terrorists.  One argument that occurs to me is that they may have been concerned about setting Sheila off and her then shooting everybody, especially as there were young children in the house.  OK, but they waited three hours.  Three hours.  Why?

5) 6.09 am - At the exact time the BT operator transfers the open line to Maldon for monitoring, Sheila makes a 999 call. It is unclear if this vital information reaches the officers at the scene or if suppressing the 999 call is the action of one rogue cop. Nevertheless, despite suppressing this information, an ambulance is sent 18 minutes later which is proof of the call and not simply standard procedure for an impending raid where casualties are likely.

Two calls can't be made from one phone at one time, so your claim does not make sense.  Are you saying that as the open line was transferred:

(i). Sheila terminates the open line and makes a call?
(ii). Sheila speaks into the open line (perhaps after hearing voices emanating from the handset)?
(iii). Something else?

6) Throughout the 4 hours of the siege, lights are going on and off and curtains are being opened/closed. Multiple officers carefully watching for movement either fail in their duty to notice any of this or are inveigled into a plot to lie and state there were no signs of life.

Who makes this claim?

7) Just prior to the raid, Sheila is seen through the kitchen window, dead. It is not at all possible that Nevill's body was simply mistaken for a woman's and a non eyewitness misunderstood the situation.

It is a fact that an authorised firearms officer, PC Collins, looked through the back kitchen window and when he reported what he saw back to CA07, he stated one dead female.  They then enter the farmhouse and find one dead male.  CA07 then radioed this back to Igor Norman at Chelmsford as one dead male and one dead female found on entry to the farmhouse, and PC West also recorded it this way in the Wireless Log. 

What is clear is that PC Collins' second report back to CA07 could not have included the conjunctive word as there was only one body in the kitchen.  Furthermore, if PC Collins had seen a different body through the window to that found in the kitchen, he would have reported this.

It follows from this that PC Collins' original observation could not have been mistaken in its essential fact - he definitely saw a body, whether male or female.  This in turn leaves open two possibilities:

(i). the body found by the raid group on entry to the main kitchen was in the same position to that observed by PC Collins through the kitchen window;
or,
(ii). the body found by the raid group on entry to the main kitchen was in a different position to that observed by PC Collins through the kitchen window.

If (i) applies, then PC Collins' evidence in this respect is true and he just mistook Nevill's body for female.

If (ii) applies, PC Collins' evidence is false, and either Nevill was still alive at this point or Sheila was in the kitchen just before the raid group entered the farmhouse.

8 ) As the raid team enter, a reanimated Sheila runs upstairs and shoots herself only once, although she is also still dead in the kitchen because a log entry written by a non eyewitness says so. Schrodinger's Sheila.

PC Collins was not commenting on whether the bodies he saw were alive or dead.  If he says 'dead bodies', that is because they appear to be dead.  Even a doctor would not be able to tell from behind a window six feet away.

9) Some time later but after the police surgeon has been, Sheila is shot for a second time in a bumbling accident. The police panic and think that nobody will believe a two shot suicide and decide framing innocent Jeremy is the only option that definitely won't lead to 36 years of questions and scrutiny of their actions. The TFG statements saying they saw two wounds are clearly lies. Declaring it a murder suicide and giving evidence to that effect at the inquest was all a part of EP's scheme to make themselves look incompetent, thus hiding their mistake with a clever double reverse bluff.

Again, I think you misrepresent the alleged conspiracy.  What is being posited here is that the officers decided to cover up the second shot only.  There is no suggestion that the officers on the scene sought to frame Jeremy.  In fact, it's the very opposite of what you say.  The efforts were intended to make it look like a two-shot suicide.  A variation on the theory is that Taff Jones became aware of what had gone on and this explains his apparent obstinance.

Personally, I do not believe there is anything to support this theory but I retain an open mind. Stranger things have happened.

10) A mysterious suicide note mentioned by S Jones. The note in the bible? The "Dear Mummy" letter? No, it can only be a completely different note that was hidden, probably under PII and whatnot because that's automatically dead suspicious.

I don't know if there was a suicide note, but it was Stan Jones who mentioned a suicide note in his COLP interview.  It's not as if Jeremy was stood there with him saying, 'Go on Stan, mention the suicide note.
Go on.  I'll give you all my dinner money if you do...'  Jeremy seems to be blamed for drawing natural inferences from things people have done or said of their own free will, which seems rather unfair to me.

Personally, I suspect it was just clumsy expression on Stan Jones' part that Jeremy has now seized on, but if Jeremy Bamber is innocent, can you blame him for making hay of it?  Shouldn't the COLP officers have sought clarification from DS Jones on the point?  Why blame Jeremy when it's the police who are not being rigorous and checking things?

11) Julie Mugford lies her head off about everything. It's unclear whether JB still says all of her flatmates were lying about the time of his apparently inconsequential and perfectly normal 3am call to Julie now that he has changed his mind about the order of the calls. (again)

Well you're wrong here too.  Even the prosecution counsel, Anthony Arlidge, Q.C. disagrees with you.  He conceded the point in his closing speech on 27th. October 1985, when he told the jury:

"Somebody in this case is lying, and lying their head off.  It's just something you have to face up to."

You say the phone call was at 3 a.m.  Julie said it was at 3.15 a.m.  Susan Battersby said it was at 3.12 a.m., based on her alarm clock, which she asks us to assume was deadly accurate.

Julie told the police in her first statement that Douglas Dale had answered the phone, then corrected this later and admitted she answered.

11a) But Julie is only lying her head off because Stan Jones had something on her. And because she was a woman scorned. And because she is a horrible witch who should go to prison and be flogged.

Putting aside the truth or otherwise of all this, I'm not clear why you think this is a wild supposition or 'conspiracy theory'.  You do realise that people tell lies in court, including women and policemen?  You do understand that people are sometimes framed for crimes they did not commit?  I will grant you that normally this is because the person framed is believed to be guilty or is looked upon as suspicious, but the point is that you seem to be dismissing as wild supposition things that actually have occurred in real life in other cases.

12) The relatives conspire to tell lies about horrid things Jeremy supposedly said because they were all greedy and hated poor Jeremy. Much more serious but unfounded allegations of evidence tampering are insinuated/telegraphed.

Again, putting aside the truth or otherwise of this, I'm unclear why you put these allegations in the 'conspiracy theory' category, as if they can be dismissed out-of-hand as beneath your notice.  People do plot together to tell lies, and - brace yourself for this because it will shock you - they sometimes do it because they're greedy or nasty.  You do realise this? 

12b) The relatives also lie to the court about the inheritance, although an agreed note makes clear to the jury that PB will basically get the lot.

13) Several others also tell lies about the horrid things Jeremy has supposedly said about his parents and not sharing his inheritance although there appears no motive for them to lie, they are lying.

Are you serious when you suggest there was no motive for them to lie?  I'm not saying they were lying, but you can't seriously be telling us there was no motive.

14) Michael Fielder and the Sun newspaper tell horrid lies about JB and BC trying to sell nude photographs of Sheila but this definitely didn't happen because JB says it didn't. It is not possible that JB didn't give all of the photographs to Colin and kept some back. No way. Uh Uh. So you believe a reporter from the sun do you? Yeah right, that's typical of guilters.

I don't believe anything that comes out of the mouth or pen of a reporter from the Sun, or any journalist, from any newspaper, or any media person or anybody who works in broadcasting.  If a journalist or media person gave me the time of day, I'd ring up the Greenwich Observatory to double-check.  Not one of them is trustworthy in the sense that you can rely on their word without carrying out your own checks.  They tell lies.

That having been said, I think you have to make a choice.  If Michael Fielder's story was true, then we have another reason in support of Sheila as the killer, don't we, and if Jeremy is lying about selling photographs, that is no proof that he is a murderer.  If, on the other hand, Michael Fielder's story is false, it does not follow that Jeremy is innocent, it merely serves to establish what we already know, that journalists are scumbags; and, it may be that Fielder lied because Brett and Jeremy themselves were a couple of scumbags.

Certainly, what we can say is that Jeremy's moral orientation took a turn for the worse under the influence of young Brett.

15) Everyone at the FSS lab lies to conceal the fact there were 2 silencers and lie about the results,  Vanezis manages to miss or deliberately conceal wounds on Sheila and Prof Knight for the defence is also incompetent.

Where is it said by anybody supporting Jeremy that everybody has lied?  Anyway, why shouldn't it be the case that large numbers of people told lies in different ways?  Why can't experienced professionals make mistakes?  How did the Post Office Horizon scandal happen?  By accident?

16) ITV and Carol Ann Lee conspire to make a TV drama to thwart jeremy's appeal because the CCRC are famously influenced by drama's on TV rather than the evidence.

Again, I'm not clear why you think this is far-fetched.  The TV drama was based partly on Colin Caffell's book.  You do realise that Colin Caffell would crawl bollock-naked over broken glass to stop Jeremy being freed? And do you think Carol Ann Lee just woke up in a manger?  She writes for money.  She doesn't just do it for the good of her health.  She appeared on that podcast and said what they want her to say because they paid her.  This is not a silly person.  She's a shrewd lady.
 
I'm starting to view you as a bit of a naif.  I'm starting to think you might be a promising mark for a confidence man.  You seem to be under the belief that what you see on TV and read in newspapers is true and doesn't represent some sort of agenda. 

17) Carol Ann Lee lies about the vet saying JB decided to put down Crispy. When CAL challenges the CT to publish the vet's statement and prove her wrong, the CT claim not to have it or have seen it. Animal lovers up and down the country hate poor Jeremy even more.

No such thing occurred.  Jeremy fully admits that he had Crispy put down. The controversy is over why.  You fail to ask why Carol Ann Lee would impute the worst possible motives in Jeremy for the most mundane incident while absolving everybody else.

18)Every Chief Constable of EP since 1985 has concealed the REAL evidence, although it doesn't matter because JB can already prove he is innocent so the CT don't bang on about it endlessly.

What a silly comment.  If Essex Police have concealed evidence, then what else should we conclude than that they have....concealed evidence?  That is literally what they have done.  And if you were innocent of something and still in prison for it, what else would you do other than protest your innocence at every opportunity?

19) BT lie in court about whether they have any record of local calls made through the local exchange.

To my knowledge, nobody associated with Jeremy Bamber has ever made this accusation.  There would be no need.

20) The bible went missing during the trial. The fact that it had obviously been closed and reopened while the blood was still wet would not have been detrimental to JB's case and had nothing to do with the apparent sudden loss of interest by the defence.

Here you rely on the 2002 appeal judges, but they actually got this wrong.  There is a factor they failed to take account of.  As to why Jeremy's defence did not raise the Bible during the trial, I have no idea and I doubt anybody else does, even Jeremy himself.  I suspect the only person who knows is Geoffrey Rivlin, Q.C., and he's probably forgotten.  It may be that Rivlin was worried that blood impressions inside the Bible may incriminate Jeremy.  OK, so what?  Doesn't mean Jeremy is guilty, as the cause of it can be more than one thing.

21) The destruction of Sheila's nightdress and other exhibits preventing further examination with modern forensic techniques.

Which is true. It is admitted by the authorities that this occurred.

22) Individual negatives removed from the previously complete strips. Are these simply photos of the boys that are of no particular value to JB's defence but must not end up in the public domain or is there something more sinister in this?

Well, which is it?  I'm not clear how this is wild supposition.  The concern seems well-founded.

23) Ainsley and Cook STOLE photos and case documents and shared with Carol Ann Lee and Kris Mrksa the producer of WHF TV series respectively.

Again, this actually happened.  It is fact.  Whether the documents were technically stolen by police officers is a matter of law, but no legitimate reason for them to have those documents springs to mind.  "Any chance I can take this document home, guv, show it to the wife?" "Yeah, go on. Jeremy's legal team won't need it anymore", sounds to me like a conversation that should not take place between police officers.  However, we are talking about the police force that destroyed crucial evidence in a murder case involving a disputed conviction, so perhaps that's how it panned out.

24) Bamber was STITCHED UP by the Police due to their attitude towards homosexuality, he had gay friends and could be gay himself!

TBC....

Why not?  Why shouldn't this be a factor?  I doubt anybody would claim it was the only reason, but why shouldn't it have come into play?  The Birmingham Six would say they were stitched up because they were Irish (in fact, they were all Irish Republicans).  Judith Ward was an IRA groupie.  My point is that the personal habits, views, and lifestyle choices of an individual can firm them up as a suspect, especially if these personal attributes have some relevance to the case itself.  It turned out that Judith Ward was innocent. 

In the present case, and to give due credit to Stan Jones (who was an able detective), Jeremy's slightly decadent, 'alternative', metropolitan outlook and lifestyle formed a background against which a picture could be painted of him as someone materialistic rather than dutiful and, taken together with other things, allowed the prosecution to portray Jeremy as perhaps the type of person who would seek to escape a rural north Essex life and might - just might - resort to desperate measures to do it.  If it turns out that Stan Jones was wrong, then this train of thought starts to look a bit prejudiced.  Indeed, I'm told that early in his prison career, Jeremy Bamber was subscribing to Farmers Weekly.  Was that just to give him another appeal point?  And even his detractors base their detraction on Jeremy wanting to use the money he would inherit to buy a small farm in Devon.  Why would they come up with something like that?  Why would Jeremy want to sell up one farm-business conglomerate that is prosperous and doing well only to set up another in some random part of the country he has no connection to?  Does that make any sense to you?

Offline killingeve

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 299
Re: Counting Conspiracies.
« Reply #32 on: January 05, 2022, 09:07:AM »

It is a fact that an authorised firearms officer, PC Collins, looked through the back kitchen window and when he reported what he saw back to CA07, he stated one dead female.  They then enter the farmhouse and find one dead male.  CA07 then radioed this back to Igor Norman at Chelmsford as one dead male and one dead female found on entry to the farmhouse, and PC West also recorded it this way in the Wireless Log. 

What is clear is that PC Collins' second report back to CA07 could not have included the conjunctive word as there was only one body in the kitchen.  Furthermore, if PC Collins had seen a different body through the window to that found in the kitchen, he would have reported this.

It follows from this that PC Collins' original observation could not have been mistaken in its essential fact - he definitely saw a body, whether male or female.  This in turn leaves open two possibilities:

(i). the body found by the raid group on entry to the main kitchen was in the same position to that observed by PC Collins through the kitchen window;
or,
(ii). the body found by the raid group on entry to the main kitchen was in a different position to that observed by PC Collins through the kitchen window.

If (i) applies, then PC Collins' evidence in this respect is true and he just mistook Nevill's body for female.

If (ii) applies, PC Collins' evidence is false, and either Nevill was still alive at this point or Sheila was in the kitchen just before the raid group entered the farmhouse.

PC Collins was not commenting on whether the bodies he saw were alive or dead.  If he says 'dead bodies', that is because they appear to be dead.  Even a doctor would not be able to tell from behind a window six feet away.

Again, I think you misrepresent the alleged conspiracy.  What is being posited here is that the officers decided to cover up the second shot only.  There is no suggestion that the officers on the scene sought to frame Jeremy.  In fact, it's the very opposite of what you say.  The efforts were intended to make it look like a two-shot suicide.  A variation on the theory is that Taff Jones became aware of what had gone on and this explains his apparent obstinance.

Personally, I do not believe there is anything to support this theory but I retain an open mind. Stranger things have happened.

PC Collins made the observation at approx 7.37am.

TFU entered the farmhouse at approx 7.40am.  It was then some minutes until they arrived in the main bedroom and observed Sheila.  All agreed she was dead.  The police surgeon arrived at approx 8.10am and certified Sheila dead shortly afterwards.  At trial he said:

In cross-examination at the trial he said the deaths could have occurred at any time during the previous night.

If Sheila died by her own hand, or at the hands of Essex police, at a much later time than the other victims why did Dr Craig provide the above testimony?  Bearing in mind he was an expert witness for the defence and went on to say:

The appearance of Sheila Caffell's body suggested to him that the wounds had been inflicted by her own hand.

But more importantly if Sheila was still alive at 7.37am do you honestly believe the police surgeon would be incapable of discerning obvious differences between the victims who died over 4 hours before he certified their deaths and Sheila dying some 30 minutes before certifying her dead?  Or is this just another highly qualified expert of long experience who was involved in wrongdoing or incompetenr/negligent?

As I've pointed out previously as far as I know no patient (Dr Craig was a GP too) or anyone else ever made a complaint to the GMC. 

David might well pop up soon and guess what in his opinion Dr Craig was also an alcoholic  :o ;D ::)  His evidence: a former poster claims he lived in the Essex area and there was a rumour Dr Craig was a boozer!  There were lots of rumours about Jeremy Bamber too!

Offline Jane

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 33775
Re: Counting Conspiracies.
« Reply #33 on: January 05, 2022, 09:21:AM »
This is a list of conspiracies currently believed and/or promoted by JB and his official campaign team. Feel free to add any I have forgotten or disagree or hijack the thread with long standing personal vendettas that have no relevance to the case. I don't care.

I have tried to resist snarky comments but have failed in places, I think I am such a wit  :))

1) West, Bonnet, Myall, Saxby and Bews all conspire to hide evidence of Nevill speaking to West from the moment JB eventually speaks to West himself. Other officers may also be involved. The evidence that proves this is shown to the jury.

2) Myall and Bews conspire to lie about the figure in the window. They hypnotise Jeremy into forgetting all about it for several months.

3) Bews radios in a situation report about the figure in the window and calls for armed back up. This information is immediately suppressed from all other officers subsequently at the scene in case they blab to Jeremy. 

4) 5.25 am - Sheila is in conversation with police, multiple officers conspire to keep this information from JB and suppress it afterward.

5) 6.09 am - At the exact time the BT operator transfers the open line to Maldon for monitoring, Sheila makes a 999 call. It is unclear if this vital information reaches the officers at the scene or if suppressing the 999 call is the action of one rogue cop. Nevertheless, despite suppressing this information, an ambulance is sent 18 minutes later which is proof of the call and not simply standard procedure for an impending raid where casualties are likely.

6) Throughout the 4 hours of the siege, lights are going on and off and curtains are being opened/closed. Multiple officers carefully watching for movement either fail in their duty to notice any of this or are inveigled into a plot to lie and state there were no signs of life.

7) Just prior to the raid, Sheila is seen through the kitchen window, dead. It is not at all possible that Nevill's body was simply mistaken for a woman's and a non eyewitness misunderstood the situation. 

8 ) As the raid team enter, a reanimated Sheila runs upstairs and shoots herself only once, although she is also still dead in the kitchen because a log entry written by a non eyewitness says so. Schrodinger's Sheila.

9) Some time later but after the police surgeon has been, Sheila is shot for a second time in a bumbling accident. The police panic and think that nobody will believe a two shot suicide and decide framing innocent Jeremy is the only option that definitely won't lead to 36 years of questions and scrutiny of their actions. The TFG statements saying they saw two wounds are clearly lies. Declaring it a murder suicide and giving evidence to that effect at the inquest was all a part of EP's scheme to make themselves look incompetent, thus hiding their mistake with a clever double reverse bluff.

10) A mysterious suicide note mentioned by S Jones. The note in the bible? The "Dear Mummy" letter? No, it can only be a completely different note that was hidden, probably under PII and whatnot because that's automatically dead suspicious.

11) Julie Mugford lies her head off about everything. It's unclear whether JB still says all of her flatmates were lying about the time of his apparently inconsequential and perfectly normal 3am call to Julie now that he has changed his mind about the order of the calls. (again)

11a) But Julie is only lying her head off because Stan Jones had something on her. And because she was a woman scorned. And because she is a horrible witch who should go to prison and be flogged. 

12) The relatives conspire to tell lies about horrid things Jeremy supposedly said because they were all greedy and hated poor Jeremy. Much more serious but unfounded allegations of evidence tampering are insinuated/telegraphed.

12b) The relatives also lie to the court about the inheritance, although an agreed note makes clear to the jury that PB will basically get the lot.

13) Several others also tell lies about the horrid things Jeremy has supposedly said about his parents and not sharing his inheritance although there appears no motive for them to lie, they are lying.

14) Michael Fielder and the Sun newspaper tell horrid lies about JB and BC trying to sell nude photographs of Sheila but this definitely didn't happen because JB says it didn't. It is not possible that JB didn't give all of the photographs to Colin and kept some back. No way. Uh Uh. So you believe a reporter from the sun do you? Yeah right, that's typical of guilters..

15) Everyone at the FSS lab lies to conceal the fact there were 2 silencers and lie about the results,  Vanezis manages to miss or deliberately conceal wounds on Sheila and Prof Knight for the defence is also incompetent.

16) ITV and Carol Ann Lee conspire to make a TV drama to thwart jeremy's appeal because the CCRC are famously influenced by drama's on TV rather than the evidence.

17) Carol Ann Lee lies about the vet saying JB decided to put down Crispy. When CAL challenges the CT to publish the vet's statement and prove her wrong, the CT claim not to have it or have seen it. Animal lovers up and down the country hate poor Jeremy even more.

18)Every Chief Constable of EP since 1985 has concealed the REAL evidence, although it doesn't matter because JB can already prove he is innocent so the CT don't bang on about it endlessly.

19) BT lie in court about whether they have any record of local calls made through the local exchange.

20) The bible went missing during the trial. The fact that it had obviously been closed and reopened while the blood was still wet would not have been detrimental to JB's case and had nothing to do with the apparent sudden loss of interest by the defence.

21) The destruction of Sheila's nightdress and other exhibits preventing further examination with modern forensic techniques. 

22) Individual negatives removed from the previously complete strips. Are these simply photos of the boys that are of no particular value to JB's defence but must not end up in the public domain or is there something more sinister in this?

23) Ainsley and Cook STOLE photos and case documents and shared with Carol Ann Lee and Kris Mrksa the producer of WHF TV series respectively.

24) Bamber was STITCHED UP by the Police due to their attitude towards homosexuality, he had gay friends and could be gay himself!

TBC....

.
WONDERFUL! Love it, love it, LOVE IT!!!

Could you consider another one? The reason he was framed and being kept inside is because there are those in the know -nod,nod,wink,wink- who are aware of his 'parentage' and fear he may bring down the Royal Family challenge Charles for the crown.

Offline killingeve

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 299
Re: Counting Conspiracies.
« Reply #34 on: January 05, 2022, 09:48:AM »
This is a list of conspiracies currently believed and/or promoted by JB and his official campaign team. Feel free to add any I have forgotten or disagree or hijack the thread with long standing personal vendettas that have no relevance to the case. I don't care.

I have tried to resist snarky comments but have failed in places, I think I am such a wit  :))

1) West, Bonnet, Myall, Saxby and Bews all conspire to hide evidence of Nevill speaking to West from the moment JB eventually speaks to West himself. Other officers may also be involved. The evidence that proves this is shown to the jury.

2) Myall and Bews conspire to lie about the figure in the window. They hypnotise Jeremy into forgetting all about it for several months.

3) Bews radios in a situation report about the figure in the window and calls for armed back up. This information is immediately suppressed from all other officers subsequently at the scene in case they blab to Jeremy. 

4) 5.25 am - Sheila is in conversation with police, multiple officers conspire to keep this information from JB and suppress it afterward.

5) 6.09 am - At the exact time the BT operator transfers the open line to Maldon for monitoring, Sheila makes a 999 call. It is unclear if this vital information reaches the officers at the scene or if suppressing the 999 call is the action of one rogue cop. Nevertheless, despite suppressing this information, an ambulance is sent 18 minutes later which is proof of the call and not simply standard procedure for an impending raid where casualties are likely.

6) Throughout the 4 hours of the siege, lights are going on and off and curtains are being opened/closed. Multiple officers carefully watching for movement either fail in their duty to notice any of this or are inveigled into a plot to lie and state there were no signs of life.

7) Just prior to the raid, Sheila is seen through the kitchen window, dead. It is not at all possible that Nevill's body was simply mistaken for a woman's and a non eyewitness misunderstood the situation. 

8 ) As the raid team enter, a reanimated Sheila runs upstairs and shoots herself only once, although she is also still dead in the kitchen because a log entry written by a non eyewitness says so. Schrodinger's Sheila.

9) Some time later but after the police surgeon has been, Sheila is shot for a second time in a bumbling accident. The police panic and think that nobody will believe a two shot suicide and decide framing innocent Jeremy is the only option that definitely won't lead to 36 years of questions and scrutiny of their actions. The TFG statements saying they saw two wounds are clearly lies. Declaring it a murder suicide and giving evidence to that effect at the inquest was all a part of EP's scheme to make themselves look incompetent, thus hiding their mistake with a clever double reverse bluff.

10) A mysterious suicide note mentioned by S Jones. The note in the bible? The "Dear Mummy" letter? No, it can only be a completely different note that was hidden, probably under PII and whatnot because that's automatically dead suspicious.

11) Julie Mugford lies her head off about everything. It's unclear whether JB still says all of her flatmates were lying about the time of his apparently inconsequential and perfectly normal 3am call to Julie now that he has changed his mind about the order of the calls. (again)

11a) But Julie is only lying her head off because Stan Jones had something on her. And because she was a woman scorned. And because she is a horrible witch who should go to prison and be flogged. 

12) The relatives conspire to tell lies about horrid things Jeremy supposedly said because they were all greedy and hated poor Jeremy. Much more serious but unfounded allegations of evidence tampering are insinuated/telegraphed.

12b) The relatives also lie to the court about the inheritance, although an agreed note makes clear to the jury that PB will basically get the lot.

13) Several others also tell lies about the horrid things Jeremy has supposedly said about his parents and not sharing his inheritance although there appears no motive for them to lie, they are lying.

14) Michael Fielder and the Sun newspaper tell horrid lies about JB and BC trying to sell nude photographs of Sheila but this definitely didn't happen because JB says it didn't. It is not possible that JB didn't give all of the photographs to Colin and kept some back. No way. Uh Uh. So you believe a reporter from the sun do you? Yeah right, that's typical of guilters..

15) Everyone at the FSS lab lies to conceal the fact there were 2 silencers and lie about the results,  Vanezis manages to miss or deliberately conceal wounds on Sheila and Prof Knight for the defence is also incompetent.

16) ITV and Carol Ann Lee conspire to make a TV drama to thwart jeremy's appeal because the CCRC are famously influenced by drama's on TV rather than the evidence.

17) Carol Ann Lee lies about the vet saying JB decided to put down Crispy. When CAL challenges the CT to publish the vet's statement and prove her wrong, the CT claim not to have it or have seen it. Animal lovers up and down the country hate poor Jeremy even more.

18)Every Chief Constable of EP since 1985 has concealed the REAL evidence, although it doesn't matter because JB can already prove he is innocent so the CT don't bang on about it endlessly.

19) BT lie in court about whether they have any record of local calls made through the local exchange.

20) The bible went missing during the trial. The fact that it had obviously been closed and reopened while the blood was still wet would not have been detrimental to JB's case and had nothing to do with the apparent sudden loss of interest by the defence.

21) The destruction of Sheila's nightdress and other exhibits preventing further examination with modern forensic techniques. 

22) Individual negatives removed from the previously complete strips. Are these simply photos of the boys that are of no particular value to JB's defence but must not end up in the public domain or is there something more sinister in this?

23) Ainsley and Cook STOLE photos and case documents and shared with Carol Ann Lee and Kris Mrksa the producer of WHF TV series respectively.

24) Bamber was STITCHED UP by the Police due to their attitude towards homosexuality, he had gay friends and could be gay himself!

TBC....

I agree with Jane's sentiments.  It is indeed wonderful!

Don't think you've included claims that Essex police used the crime scene as a training exercise with the victims in-situ.

Offline killingeve

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 299
Re: Counting Conspiracies.
« Reply #35 on: January 05, 2022, 10:06:AM »

Well, they did conspire to withhold the log from the defence!  That is fact. Furthermore, the log quite plainly and in black-and-white states that the firearms team are in conversation with somebody from inside the farm.  It uses those very words.  They perhaps should have disclosed it and added a note that this was officers attempting to hail a suspect believed to be in the farmhouse, not in conversation with a suspect, and these efforts were to no avail. 

Also, if they were hailing to no avail and if there was no sign of life in the farmhouse, then why did they wait so long to attempt entry?  Did they lack the equipment and training to effect low light entry?  I appreciate that safety concerns are legitimate considerations, and anyone with a gun has to be considered dangerous, but ultimately, they were dealing with a young woman, not hardened terrorists.  One argument that occurs to me is that they may have been concerned about setting Sheila off and her then shooting everybody, especially as there were young children in the house.  OK, but they waited three hours.  Three hours.  Why?

The answers to your questions above can be found in the Dickinson report along with decision making and command structure.  Not really sure why I am bothering to point this out as no doubt you and others with your mindset will write it off on the basis that all the officers at the farm on 7th Aug conspired against Bamber. 

Offline Armchair Detective

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 541
Re: Counting Conspiracies.
« Reply #36 on: January 05, 2022, 10:15:AM »
.
WONDERFUL! Love it, love it, LOVE IT!!!

Could you consider another one? The reason he was framed and being kept inside is because there are those in the know -nod,nod,wink,wink- who are aware of his 'parentage' and fear he may bring down the Royal Family challenge Charles for the crown.

Thanks, I was actually surprised at how long the list got.

I can't in all fairness include that one as it is not a currently promoted conspiracy along with "they were all assassinated because of Nevill's war work" but yes, there are so many conspiracies against poor Jeremy Bamber, he never stood a chance. 
"When ignorant folks want to advertise their ignorance, you don't really have to do anything, just let them talk" - Barack Obama

Offline Armchair Detective

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 541
Re: Counting Conspiracies.
« Reply #37 on: January 05, 2022, 10:17:AM »
I agree with Jane's sentiments.  It is indeed wonderful!

Don't think you've included claims that Essex police used the crime scene as a training exercise with the victims in-situ.

I'll edit it in now but will probably add some snark..:)
"When ignorant folks want to advertise their ignorance, you don't really have to do anything, just let them talk" - Barack Obama

Offline killingeve

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 299
Re: Counting Conspiracies.
« Reply #38 on: January 05, 2022, 10:24:AM »
PC Collins made the observation at approx 7.37am.

TFU entered the farmhouse at approx 7.40am.  It was then some minutes until they arrived in the main bedroom and observed Sheila.  All agreed she was dead.  The police surgeon arrived at approx 8.10am and certified Sheila dead shortly afterwards.  At trial he said:

In cross-examination at the trial he said the deaths could have occurred at any time during the previous night.

If Sheila died by her own hand, or at the hands of Essex police, at a much later time than the other victims why did Dr Craig provide the above testimony?  Bearing in mind he was an expert witness for the defence and went on to say:

The appearance of Sheila Caffell's body suggested to him that the wounds had been inflicted by her own hand.

But more importantly if Sheila was still alive at 7.37am do you honestly believe the police surgeon would be incapable of discerning obvious differences between the victims who died over 4 hours before he certified their deaths and Sheila dying some 30 minutes before certifying her dead?  Or is this just another highly qualified expert of long experience who was involved in wrongdoing or incompetenr/negligent?

As I've pointed out previously as far as I know no patient (Dr Craig was a GP too) or anyone else ever made a complaint to the GMC. 

David might well pop up soon and guess what in his opinion Dr Craig was also an alcoholic  :o ;D ::)  His evidence: a former poster claims he lived in the Essex area and there was a rumour Dr Craig was a boozer!  There were lots of rumours about Jeremy Bamber too!

Re the above, just to add, Prof Vanezis estimated the time between two Sheila's gunshot wounds shots at a few seconds.  Prof Knight for the defence extended the time to a few minutes.  Both pathologists agreed Sheila did not move between the two shots in terms of standing up and/or walking. 

Offline Roch

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17586
Re: Counting Conspiracies.
« Reply #39 on: January 05, 2022, 10:37:AM »
Here you invent a myth about a conspiracy.  The actual claim is that the conspiracy arose when Operation Raleigh began, or maybe in the run up to it, not at the point that Jeremy was on the phone.

To what extent such a conspiracy may have involved Myall, Saxby and Bews, is unclear to me.  They were merely the response officers in CA07.  I comprehend the point that the Campaign Team are making, that CA07 was a response to Nevill's call, not Jeremy's, but it does not follow from this that the CA07 officers were in on it as they would have just taken the situation as they found it and the source of the call would not have mattered to them, whether HQ or Witham or wherever.
 
Again, you misrepresent things.  The allegation needs to be understood in context.  You speak of Jeremy forgetting about it, but the initial investigation concluded uncontroversially that Sheila was the culprit, as this matched the evidence found, so there was no reason for Jeremy to raise the issue.  It was only when Jeremy became a suspect that it became relevant. 

Against this background, your suspicions make no sense.  If Jeremy was lying about what occurred, then he would have claimed to have seen the figure himself and Bews and Myall would have denied the whole thing ever occurred.  Instead, Bews admits it occurred, and at one point even states he was the one who saw movement in the window!  It's on YouTube for everybody to see.  Some conspiracy that turned out to be.

Well, they did conspire to withhold the log from the defence!  That is fact. Furthermore, the log quite plainly and in black-and-white states that the firearms team are in conversation with somebody from inside the farm.  It uses those very words.  They perhaps should have disclosed it and added a note that this was officers attempting to hail a suspect believed to be in the farmhouse, not in conversation with a suspect, and these efforts were to no avail. 

Also, if they were hailing to no avail and if there was no sign of life in the farmhouse, then why did they wait so long to attempt entry?  Did they lack the equipment and training to effect low light entry?  I appreciate that safety concerns are legitimate considerations, and anyone with a gun has to be considered dangerous, but ultimately, they were dealing with a young woman, not hardened terrorists.  One argument that occurs to me is that they may have been concerned about setting Sheila off and her then shooting everybody, especially as there were young children in the house.  OK, but they waited three hours.  Three hours.  Why?

Two calls can't be made from one phone at one time, so your claim does not make sense.  Are you saying that as the open line was transferred:

(i). Sheila terminates the open line and makes a call?
(ii). Sheila speaks into the open line (perhaps after hearing voices emanating from the handset)?
(iii). Something else?

Who makes this claim?

It is a fact that an authorised firearms officer, PC Collins, looked through the back kitchen window and when he reported what he saw back to CA07, he stated one dead female.  They then enter the farmhouse and find one dead male.  CA07 then radioed this back to Igor Norman at Chelmsford as one dead male and one dead female found on entry to the farmhouse, and PC West also recorded it this way in the Wireless Log. 

What is clear is that PC Collins' second report back to CA07 could not have included the conjunctive word as there was only one body in the kitchen.  Furthermore, if PC Collins had seen a different body through the window to that found in the kitchen, he would have reported this.

It follows from this that PC Collins' original observation could not have been mistaken in its essential fact - he definitely saw a body, whether male or female.  This in turn leaves open two possibilities:

(i). the body found by the raid group on entry to the main kitchen was in the same position to that observed by PC Collins through the kitchen window;
or,
(ii). the body found by the raid group on entry to the main kitchen was in a different position to that observed by PC Collins through the kitchen window.

If (i) applies, then PC Collins' evidence in this respect is true and he just mistook Nevill's body for female.

If (ii) applies, PC Collins' evidence is false, and either Nevill was still alive at this point or Sheila was in the kitchen just before the raid group entered the farmhouse.

PC Collins was not commenting on whether the bodies he saw were alive or dead.  If he says 'dead bodies', that is because they appear to be dead.  Even a doctor would not be able to tell from behind a window six feet away.

Again, I think you misrepresent the alleged conspiracy.  What is being posited here is that the officers decided to cover up the second shot only.  There is no suggestion that the officers on the scene sought to frame Jeremy.  In fact, it's the very opposite of what you say.  The efforts were intended to make it look like a two-shot suicide.  A variation on the theory is that Taff Jones became aware of what had gone on and this explains his apparent obstinance.

Personally, I do not believe there is anything to support this theory but I retain an open mind. Stranger things have happened.

I don't know if there was a suicide note, but it was Stan Jones who mentioned a suicide note in his COLP interview.  It's not as if Jeremy was stood there with him saying, 'Go on Stan, mention the suicide note.
Go on.  I'll give you all my dinner money if you do...'  Jeremy seems to be blamed for drawing natural inferences from things people have done or said of their own free will, which seems rather unfair to me.

Personally, I suspect it was just clumsy expression on Stan Jones' part that Jeremy has now seized on, but if Jeremy Bamber is innocent, can you blame him for making hay of it?  Shouldn't the COLP officers have sought clarification from DS Jones on the point?  Why blame Jeremy when it's the police who are not being rigorous and checking things?

Well you're wrong here too.  Even the prosecution counsel, Anthony Arlidge, Q.C. disagrees with you.  He conceded the point in his closing speech on 27th. October 1985, when he told the jury:

"Somebody in this case is lying, and lying their head off.  It's just something you have to face up to."

You say the phone call was at 3 a.m.  Julie said it was at 3.15 a.m.  Susan Battersby said it was at 3.12 a.m., based on her alarm clock, which she asks us to assume was deadly accurate.

Julie told the police in her first statement that Douglas Dale had answered the phone, then corrected this later and admitted she answered.

Putting aside the truth or otherwise of all this, I'm not clear why you think this is a wild supposition or 'conspiracy theory'.  You do realise that people tell lies in court, including women and policemen?  You do understand that people are sometimes framed for crimes they did not commit?  I will grant you that normally this is because the person framed is believed to be guilty or is looked upon as suspicious, but the point is that you seem to be dismissing as wild supposition things that actually have occurred in real life in other cases.

Again, putting aside the truth or otherwise of this, I'm unclear why you put these allegations in the 'conspiracy theory' category, as if they can be dismissed out-of-hand as beneath your notice.  People do plot together to tell lies, and - brace yourself for this because it will shock you - they sometimes do it because they're greedy or nasty.  You do realise this? 

Are you serious when you suggest there was no motive for them to lie?  I'm not saying they were lying, but you can't seriously be telling us there was no motive.

I don't believe anything that comes out of the mouth or pen of a reporter from the Sun, or any journalist, from any newspaper, or any media person or anybody who works in broadcasting.  If a journalist or media person gave me the time of day, I'd ring up the Greenwich Observatory to double-check.  Not one of them is trustworthy in the sense that you can rely on their word without carrying out your own checks.  They tell lies.

That having been said, I think you have to make a choice.  If Michael Fielder's story was true, then we have another reason in support of Sheila as the killer, don't we, and if Jeremy is lying about selling photographs, that is no proof that he is a murderer.  If, on the other hand, Michael Fielder's story is false, it does not follow that Jeremy is innocent, it merely serves to establish what we already know, that journalists are scumbags; and, it may be that Fielder lied because Brett and Jeremy themselves were a couple of scumbags.

Certainly, what we can say is that Jeremy's moral orientation took a turn for the worse under the influence of young Brett.

Where is it said by anybody supporting Jeremy that everybody has lied?  Anyway, why shouldn't it be the case that large numbers of people told lies in different ways?  Why can't experienced professionals make mistakes?  How did the Post Office Horizon scandal happen?  By accident?

Again, I'm not clear why you think this is far-fetched.  The TV drama was based partly on Colin Caffell's book.  You do realise that Colin Caffell would crawl bollock-naked over broken glass to stop Jeremy being freed? And do you think Carol Ann Lee just woke up in a manger?  She writes for money.  She doesn't just do it for the good of her health.  She appeared on that podcast and said what they want her to say because they paid her.  This is not a silly person.  She's a shrewd lady.
 
I'm starting to view you as a bit of a naif.  I'm starting to think you might be a promising mark for a confidence man.  You seem to be under the belief that what you see on TV and read in newspapers is true and doesn't represent some sort of agenda. 

No such thing occurred.  Jeremy fully admits that he had Crispy put down. The controversy is over why.  You fail to ask why Carol Ann Lee would impute the worst possible motives in Jeremy for the most mundane incident while absolving everybody else.

What a silly comment.  If Essex Police have concealed evidence, then what else should we conclude than that they have....concealed evidence?  That is literally what they have done.  And if you were innocent of something and still in prison for it, what else would you do other than protest your innocence at every opportunity?

To my knowledge, nobody associated with Jeremy Bamber has ever made this accusation.  There would be no need.

Here you rely on the 2002 appeal judges, but they actually got this wrong.  There is a factor they failed to take account of.  As to why Jeremy's defence did not raise the Bible during the trial, I have no idea and I doubt anybody else does, even Jeremy himself.  I suspect the only person who knows is Geoffrey Rivlin, Q.C., and he's probably forgotten.  It may be that Rivlin was worried that blood impressions inside the Bible may incriminate Jeremy.  OK, so what?  Doesn't mean Jeremy is guilty, as the cause of it can be more than one thing.

Which is true. It is admitted by the authorities that this occurred.

Well, which is it?  I'm not clear how this is wild supposition.  The concern seems well-founded.

Again, this actually happened.  It is fact.  Whether the documents were technically stolen by police officers is a matter of law, but no legitimate reason for them to have those documents springs to mind.  "Any chance I can take this document home, guv, show it to the wife?" "Yeah, go on. Jeremy's legal team won't need it anymore", sounds to me like a conversation that should not take place between police officers.  However, we are talking about the police force that destroyed crucial evidence in a murder case involving a disputed conviction, so perhaps that's how it panned out.

Why not?  Why shouldn't this be a factor?  I doubt anybody would claim it was the only reason, but why shouldn't it have come into play?  The Birmingham Six would say they were stitched up because they were Irish (in fact, they were all Irish Republicans).  Judith Ward was an IRA groupie.  My point is that the personal habits, views, and lifestyle choices of an individual can firm them up as a suspect, especially if these personal attributes have some relevance to the case itself.  It turned out that Judith Ward was innocent. 

In the present case, and to give due credit to Stan Jones (who was an able detective), Jeremy's slightly decadent, 'alternative', metropolitan outlook and lifestyle formed a background against which a picture could be painted of him as someone materialistic rather than dutiful and, taken together with other things, allowed the prosecution to portray Jeremy as perhaps the type of person who would seek to escape a rural north Essex life and might - just might - resort to desperate measures to do it.  If it turns out that Stan Jones was wrong, then this train of thought starts to look a bit prejudiced.  Indeed, I'm told that early in his prison career, Jeremy Bamber was subscribing to Farmers Weekly.  Was that just to give him another appeal point?  And even his detractors base their detraction on Jeremy wanting to use the money he would inherit to buy a small farm in Devon.  Why would they come up with something like that?  Why would Jeremy want to sell up one farm-business conglomerate that is prosperous and doing well only to set up another in some random part of the country he has no connection to?  Does that make any sense to you?

Quite a comprehensive response and certainly puts things in perspective.

Offline killingeve

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 299
Re: Counting Conspiracies.
« Reply #40 on: January 05, 2022, 10:39:AM »
Here you rely on the 2002 appeal judges, but they actually got this wrong.  There is a factor they failed to take account of.  As to why Jeremy's defence did not raise the Bible during the trial, I have no idea and I doubt anybody else does, even Jeremy himself.  I suspect the only person who knows is Geoffrey Rivlin, Q.C., and he's probably forgotten.  It may be that Rivlin was worried that blood impressions inside the Bible may incriminate Jeremy.  OK, so what?  Doesn't mean Jeremy is guilty, as the cause of it can be more than one thing.

If you bother to read Prof Knight's trial testimony you will see Bamber's defence did indeed use the bible at trial.

Again if you bother to read the Dickinson report the TFU admit they might have inadvertently moved the bible when the door to the box room was opened. 

It is clear to me you are unfamiliar with the most important aspects of the case material and yet seem very keen that we should listen to podcasts put out by the CT where 99.9% of the information either does not stand up to scrutiny or is totally irrelevant. 

Offline killingeve

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 299
Re: Counting Conspiracies.
« Reply #41 on: January 05, 2022, 10:58:AM »

Again, you misrepresent things.  The allegation needs to be understood in context.  You speak of Jeremy forgetting about it, but the initial investigation concluded uncontroversially that Sheila was the culprit, as this matched the evidence found, so there was no reason for Jeremy to raise the issue.  It was only when Jeremy became a suspect that it became relevant. 

Against this background, your suspicions make no sense.  If Jeremy was lying about what occurred, then he would have claimed to have seen the figure himself and Bews and Myall would have denied the whole thing ever occurred.  Instead, Bews admits it occurred, and at one point even states he was the one who saw movement in the window!  It's on YouTube for everybody to see.  Some conspiracy that turned out to be.

According to Mrs Eaton on morning of 7th Aug at Bamber's cottage he said something along the lines of 'If only dogs could talk' referring to Crispy.  Why didn't he refer then to 'movement' at the window?

When he was interviewed under caution and DS Jones put it to him that Sheila could not have shot herself twice and he was under suspicion for the murders, why didn't he refer then to 'movement' at the window?  Instead he backtracked and said his father might have said 'she has the gun and has gone crazy' and not Sheila!  He even suggested Crispy might have let off the second shot!
« Last Edit: January 05, 2022, 10:59:AM by Cambridgecutie »

Offline JackieD

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3879
Re: Counting Conspiracies.
« Reply #42 on: January 05, 2022, 11:14:AM »
Here you invent a myth about a conspiracy.  The actual claim is that the conspiracy arose when Operation Raleigh began, or maybe in the run up to it, not at the point that Jeremy was on the phone.

To what extent such a conspiracy may have involved Myall, Saxby and Bews, is unclear to me.  They were merely the response officers in CA07.  I comprehend the point that the Campaign Team are making, that CA07 was a response to Nevill's call, not Jeremy's, but it does not follow from this that the CA07 officers were in on it as they would have just taken the situation as they found it and the source of the call would not have mattered to them, whether HQ or Witham or wherever.
 
Again, you misrepresent things.  The allegation needs to be understood in context.  You speak of Jeremy forgetting about it, but the initial investigation concluded uncontroversially that Sheila was the culprit, as this matched the evidence found, so there was no reason for Jeremy to raise the issue.  It was only when Jeremy became a suspect that it became relevant. 

Against this background, your suspicions make no sense.  If Jeremy was lying about what occurred, then he would have claimed to have seen the figure himself and Bews and Myall would have denied the whole thing ever occurred.  Instead, Bews admits it occurred, and at one point even states he was the one who saw movement in the window!  It's on YouTube for everybody to see.  Some conspiracy that turned out to be.

Well, they did conspire to withhold the log from the defence!  That is fact. Furthermore, the log quite plainly and in black-and-white states that the firearms team are in conversation with somebody from inside the farm.  It uses those very words.  They perhaps should have disclosed it and added a note that this was officers attempting to hail a suspect believed to be in the farmhouse, not in conversation with a suspect, and these efforts were to no avail. 

Also, if they were hailing to no avail and if there was no sign of life in the farmhouse, then why did they wait so long to attempt entry?  Did they lack the equipment and training to effect low light entry?  I appreciate that safety concerns are legitimate considerations, and anyone with a gun has to be considered dangerous, but ultimately, they were dealing with a young woman, not hardened terrorists.  One argument that occurs to me is that they may have been concerned about setting Sheila off and her then shooting everybody, especially as there were young children in the house.  OK, but they waited three hours.  Three hours.  Why?

Two calls can't be made from one phone at one time, so your claim does not make sense.  Are you saying that as the open line was transferred:

(i). Sheila terminates the open line and makes a call?
(ii). Sheila speaks into the open line (perhaps after hearing voices emanating from the handset)?
(iii). Something else?

Who makes this claim?

It is a fact that an authorised firearms officer, PC Collins, looked through the back kitchen window and when he reported what he saw back to CA07, he stated one dead female.  They then enter the farmhouse and find one dead male.  CA07 then radioed this back to Igor Norman at Chelmsford as one dead male and one dead female found on entry to the farmhouse, and PC West also recorded it this way in the Wireless Log. 

What is clear is that PC Collins' second report back to CA07 could not have included the conjunctive word as there was only one body in the kitchen.  Furthermore, if PC Collins had seen a different body through the window to that found in the kitchen, he would have reported this.

It follows from this that PC Collins' original observation could not have been mistaken in its essential fact - he definitely saw a body, whether male or female.  This in turn leaves open two possibilities:

(i). the body found by the raid group on entry to the main kitchen was in the same position to that observed by PC Collins through the kitchen window;
or,
(ii). the body found by the raid group on entry to the main kitchen was in a different position to that observed by PC Collins through the kitchen window.

If (i) applies, then PC Collins' evidence in this respect is true and he just mistook Nevill's body for female.

If (ii) applies, PC Collins' evidence is false, and either Nevill was still alive at this point or Sheila was in the kitchen just before the raid group entered the farmhouse.

PC Collins was not commenting on whether the bodies he saw were alive or dead.  If he says 'dead bodies', that is because they appear to be dead.  Even a doctor would not be able to tell from behind a window six feet away.

Again, I think you misrepresent the alleged conspiracy.  What is being posited here is that the officers decided to cover up the second shot only.  There is no suggestion that the officers on the scene sought to frame Jeremy.  In fact, it's the very opposite of what you say.  The efforts were intended to make it look like a two-shot suicide.  A variation on the theory is that Taff Jones became aware of what had gone on and this explains his apparent obstinance.

Personally, I do not believe there is anything to support this theory but I retain an open mind. Stranger things have happened.

I don't know if there was a suicide note, but it was Stan Jones who mentioned a suicide note in his COLP interview.  It's not as if Jeremy was stood there with him saying, 'Go on Stan, mention the suicide note.
Go on.  I'll give you all my dinner money if you do...'  Jeremy seems to be blamed for drawing natural inferences from things people have done or said of their own free will, which seems rather unfair to me.

Personally, I suspect it was just clumsy expression on Stan Jones' part that Jeremy has now seized on, but if Jeremy Bamber is innocent, can you blame him for making hay of it?  Shouldn't the COLP officers have sought clarification from DS Jones on the point?  Why blame Jeremy when it's the police who are not being rigorous and checking things?

Well you're wrong here too.  Even the prosecution counsel, Anthony Arlidge, Q.C. disagrees with you.  He conceded the point in his closing speech on 27th. October 1985, when he told the jury:

"Somebody in this case is lying, and lying their head off.  It's just something you have to face up to."

You say the phone call was at 3 a.m.  Julie said it was at 3.15 a.m.  Susan Battersby said it was at 3.12 a.m., based on her alarm clock, which she asks us to assume was deadly accurate.

Julie told the police in her first statement that Douglas Dale had answered the phone, then corrected this later and admitted she answered.

Putting aside the truth or otherwise of all this, I'm not clear why you think this is a wild supposition or 'conspiracy theory'.  You do realise that people tell lies in court, including women and policemen?  You do understand that people are sometimes framed for crimes they did not commit?  I will grant you that normally this is because the person framed is believed to be guilty or is looked upon as suspicious, but the point is that you seem to be dismissing as wild supposition things that actually have occurred in real life in other cases.

Again, putting aside the truth or otherwise of this, I'm unclear why you put these allegations in the 'conspiracy theory' category, as if they can be dismissed out-of-hand as beneath your notice.  People do plot together to tell lies, and - brace yourself for this because it will shock you - they sometimes do it because they're greedy or nasty.  You do realise this? 

Are you serious when you suggest there was no motive for them to lie?  I'm not saying they were lying, but you can't seriously be telling us there was no motive.

I don't believe anything that comes out of the mouth or pen of a reporter from the Sun, or any journalist, from any newspaper, or any media person or anybody who works in broadcasting.  If a journalist or media person gave me the time of day, I'd ring up the Greenwich Observatory to double-check.  Not one of them is trustworthy in the sense that you can rely on their word without carrying out your own checks.  They tell lies.

That having been said, I think you have to make a choice.  If Michael Fielder's story was true, then we have another reason in support of Sheila as the killer, don't we, and if Jeremy is lying about selling photographs, that is no proof that he is a murderer.  If, on the other hand, Michael Fielder's story is false, it does not follow that Jeremy is innocent, it merely serves to establish what we already know, that journalists are scumbags; and, it may be that Fielder lied because Brett and Jeremy themselves were a couple of scumbags.

Certainly, what we can say is that Jeremy's moral orientation took a turn for the worse under the influence of young Brett.

Where is it said by anybody supporting Jeremy that everybody has lied?  Anyway, why shouldn't it be the case that large numbers of people told lies in different ways?  Why can't experienced professionals make mistakes?  How did the Post Office Horizon scandal happen?  By accident?

Again, I'm not clear why you think this is far-fetched.  The TV drama was based partly on Colin Caffell's book.  You do realise that Colin Caffell would crawl bollock-naked over broken glass to stop Jeremy being freed? And do you think Carol Ann Lee just woke up in a manger?  She writes for money.  She doesn't just do it for the good of her health.  She appeared on that podcast and said what they want her to say because they paid her.  This is not a silly person.  She's a shrewd lady.
 
I'm starting to view you as a bit of a naif.  I'm starting to think you might be a promising mark for a confidence man.  You seem to be under the belief that what you see on TV and read in newspapers is true and doesn't represent some sort of agenda. 

No such thing occurred.  Jeremy fully admits that he had Crispy put down. The controversy is over why.  You fail to ask why Carol Ann Lee would impute the worst possible motives in Jeremy for the most mundane incident while absolving everybody else.

What a silly comment.  If Essex Police have concealed evidence, then what else should we conclude than that they have....concealed evidence?  That is literally what they have done.  And if you were innocent of something and still in prison for it, what else would you do other than protest your innocence at every opportunity?

To my knowledge, nobody associated with Jeremy Bamber has ever made this accusation.  There would be no need.

Here you rely on the 2002 appeal judges, but they actually got this wrong.  There is a factor they failed to take account of.  As to why Jeremy's defence did not raise the Bible during the trial, I have no idea and I doubt anybody else does, even Jeremy himself.  I suspect the only person who knows is Geoffrey Rivlin, Q.C., and he's probably forgotten.  It may be that Rivlin was worried that blood impressions inside the Bible may incriminate Jeremy.  OK, so what?  Doesn't mean Jeremy is guilty, as the cause of it can be more than one thing.

Which is true. It is admitted by the authorities that this occurred.

Well, which is it?  I'm not clear how this is wild supposition.  The concern seems well-founded.

Again, this actually happened.  It is fact.  Whether the documents were technically stolen by police officers is a matter of law, but no legitimate reason for them to have those documents springs to mind.  "Any chance I can take this document home, guv, show it to the wife?" "Yeah, go on. Jeremy's legal team won't need it anymore", sounds to me like a conversation that should not take place between police officers.  However, we are talking about the police force that destroyed crucial evidence in a murder case involving a disputed conviction, so perhaps that's how it panned out.

Why not?  Why shouldn't this be a factor?  I doubt anybody would claim it was the only reason, but why shouldn't it have come into play?  The Birmingham Six would say they were stitched up because they were Irish (in fact, they were all Irish Republicans).  Judith Ward was an IRA groupie.  My point is that the personal habits, views, and lifestyle choices of an individual can firm them up as a suspect, especially if these personal attributes have some relevance to the case itself.  It turned out that Judith Ward was innocent. 

In the present case, and to give due credit to Stan Jones (who was an able detective), Jeremy's slightly decadent, 'alternative', metropolitan outlook and lifestyle formed a background against which a picture could be painted of him as someone materialistic rather than dutiful and, taken together with other things, allowed the prosecution to portray Jeremy as perhaps the type of person who would seek to escape a rural north Essex life and might - just might - resort to desperate measures to do it.  If it turns out that Stan Jones was wrong, then this train of thought starts to look a bit prejudiced.  Indeed, I'm told that early in his prison career, Jeremy Bamber was subscribing to Farmers Weekly.  Was that just to give him another appeal point?  And even his detractors base their detraction on Jeremy wanting to use the money he would inherit to buy a small farm in Devon.  Why would they come up with something like that?  Why would Jeremy want to sell up one farm-business conglomerate that is prosperous and doing well only to set up another in some random part of the country he has no connection to?  Does that make any sense to you?



The absolute truth

The facts

Thank you for your lengthy rebuttal which nobody can deny
Julie Mugford the main prosecution witness was guilty of numerous crimes, 13 separate cheque frauds, robbery, and drug dealing and also making a deal with a national newspaper before trial that if she could convince a jury her ex boyfriend was guilty of five murders she would receive £25,000

Offline killingeve

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 299
Re: Counting Conspiracies.
« Reply #43 on: January 05, 2022, 11:20:AM »

Where is it said by anybody supporting Jeremy that everybody has lied?  Anyway, why shouldn't it be the case that large numbers of people told lies in different ways?  Why can't experienced professionals make mistakes?  How did the Post Office Horizon scandal happen?  By accident?

https://www.jeremy-bamber.co.uk/liars-lobby

The Post Office scandal was based on faulty software. 

No one is denying miscarriages of justice occur and most contain similar features.  But in Bamber's case we are being asked to believe the unbelievable: that very large numbers of unrelated individuals either conspired against Bamber or were incompetent/negligent. 

Offline Armchair Detective

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 541
Re: Counting Conspiracies.
« Reply #44 on: January 05, 2022, 11:38:AM »
https://www.jeremy-bamber.co.uk/liars-lobby

The Post Office scandal was based on faulty software. 

No one is denying miscarriages of justice occur and most contain similar features.  But in Bamber's case we are being asked to believe the unbelievable: that very large numbers of unrelated individuals either conspired against Bamber or were incompetent/negligent.

Thanks for taking the time to rebut QC, don't tell him but I can't even be bothered to read his verbose reply and gave up after the first 5000 words of missing the point.

I tried flattering him at first as he can be even handed and make good points but it is clear he will dance on the head of pin, create straw men, invert known facts and generally bore the living daylights out of anyone he takes a dislike to which is anybody that has the temerity to disagree with him even once.

Just scroll past. He isn't fooling anyone with a brain. 
"When ignorant folks want to advertise their ignorance, you don't really have to do anything, just let them talk" - Barack Obama