A Jeremy Scenario

[Adam]

It is strange that QC does not accept a straight forward scenario which matches the crime scene evidence.

Instead Nevill sleeps downstairs & is not shot in the main bedroom!

[Adam]

Here is a more straight forward scenario. Which matches the evidence.

Cycle to WHF:

Evidence - June's bike brought over to Bamber's cottage just before massacre.  Easy journey. Unseen.


Get into WHF

Evidence - Bathroom window loose or open. Quiet ground floor entrance. Bamber said he knew how to get in through this window.

Pick up rifle:

Evidence ' Rifle available as stated by Bamber.


Fire one bullet into each twin.

Evidence - Julie said the twins were shot first.


Enter main bedroom:

Evidence - Two adults in this room who must be killed with remaining 9 bullets as potential to provide most resistance.


Shoot an in bed June and Neville:

Evidence - 9 shots were fired in the main bedroom opening salvo suggesting rifle was emptied in opening salvo.   June and Neville shot in or near the bed.


Go to reload or chase Neville:

Evidence - Spare bullets found in kitchen. Neville found in kitchen.


Kitchen fight:

Evidence - Neville was brutally beaten there.  Upturned and smashed kitchen items. Scratch marks on aga.


Reload, shoot and kill a knocked out Neville:

Evidence - Four kitchen head shots into Neville.


Reload. Return upstairs:

Evidence - All other shots upstairs.


Shoot June twice more:

Evidence - June had moved a few feet. Final shots required. Two of June's 7 shots would have killed her quickly.


Shoot the sleeping twins more times

Evidence - Twins shot 8 times in bed. Amount of bullets used shows two reloads carried out on the night.


Either wake and shoot or shoot an already awake Sheila:

Evidence - Sheila found shot in the corner of main bedroom. Sheila on Haloperidol so easy to control.


Go downstairs to check on Nevill

Evidence - Nevill was downstairs.


Remove & replace silencer. Move Nevill. Burn his back.

Evidence - Silencer with Sheila's blood & aga paint on/in found in cupboard. Nevill's back burnt. Nevill lifted onto coal scuttle.


Stage the scene:

Evidence - Gun and bible by Sheila.


Exit out of kitchen window:


Evidence - Twenty sources say it can be banged shut from outside. Housekeeper said items moved by kitchen window.on night of massacre.


Cycle home:

Evidence - Bike found at Bambers cottage

Not sure what more I can do.

Really supporters need to create a straight forward Sheila scenario.

QC did eventually create a scenario. But instantly complained to NGB when I started asking questions.

[Armchair Detective]

If Jeremy was masked, Nevill would probably still recognise him.  I accept that we're dealing with an extraordinary situation, and Nevill may have just fled instinctively and without thinking at all.  I find it improbable, though.  If Nevill gets hit on the head with the rifle, then Nevill stays upstairs and he dies there.

Not if he just stumbles backwards towards the landing from it. The blood on the wallpaper suggests he may have been leaning against the walls as he went, it's unlikely he was too steady on his feet. He's maybe dizzy from the shot to the jaw. JB may have followed him aiming further blows as he retreats down the stairs?

As for Sheila, my scenario for her as the killer again has Nevill downstairs.  Quite simply, I see no evidence for the proposition that Nevill was upstairs that night.  Putting him downstairs solves a number of problems.

I see your point but you create the problem with the casings. There are now too many casings upstairs! How do you explain the blood on the wallpaper? I believe there was a spot of blood on the landing carpet too - it's unlikely June made it that far and she would have left far more blood if she was crawling?

I do like thinking outside the box though. How about, Sheila goes upstairs and shoots the boys, Nevill races after her, see's what she has done, takes the gun off her and uses the last two bullets to shoot her dead. June starts screaming which gets on Nevill's last nerve so he goes and reloads and shoots her too. When the police eventually burst in he waves the gun at them and they shoot him 8 times in the kitchen. Realising this looks bad, they call the industrial frame department...

[guest29835]

It is strange that QC does not accept a straight forward scenario which matches the crime scene evidence.

Instead Nevill sleeps downstairs & is not shot in the main bedroom!

My scenario does match the crime scene evidence, which I interpret differently to you.  Please stop with these repetitive goading posts in which you comment on me rather than the case.  Please also stop diluting the thread by repeatedly copying and pasting my posts in order to make one-line comments.  You are entitled to criticise my posts, but the way you are going about it is annoying and I believe that is your intention.

[Adam]

My scenario does match the crime scene evidence, which I interpret differently to you.  Please stop with these repetitive goading posts in which you comment on me rather than the case.  Please also stop diluting the thread by repeatedly copying and pasting my posts in order to make one-line comments.  You are entitled to criticise my posts, but the way you are going about it is annoying and I believe that is your intention.

Does Nevill get shot in the main bedroom?

[Adam]

Not if he just stumbles backwards towards the landing from it. The blood on the wallpaper suggests he may have been leaning against the walls as he went, it's unlikely he was too steady on his feet. He's maybe dizzy from the shot to the jaw. JB may have followed him aiming further blows as he retreats down the stairs?
 

I see your point but you create the problem with the casings. There are now too many casings upstairs! How do you explain the blood on the wallpaper? I believe there was a spot of blood on the landing carpet too - it's unlikely June made it that far and she would have left far more blood if she was crawling?

I do like thinking outside the box though. How about, Sheila goes upstairs and shoots the boys, Nevill races after her, see's what she has done, takes the gun off her and uses the last two bullets to shoot her dead. June starts screaming which gets on Nevill's last nerve so he goes and reloads and shoots her too. When the police eventually burst in he waves the gun at them and they shoot him 8 times in the kitchen. Realising this looks bad, they call the industrial frame department...

What do you think of my scenario?

QC thinks it is 'improbable' that Nevill leaves the bedroom after being shot 4 times.

[guest29835]

I see your point but you create the problem with the casings. There are now too many casings upstairs!

I've already explained that the position of the casings cannot be relied on.  Police officers in heavy tread boots were traipsing all over the scene.

Blood was found on the landing.  I don't see why that could not have come from June.  It wasn't tested.  If Nevill is the one leaving the blood, why doesn't he leave similar blood stains on the upper part of the main stairway?

I do like thinking outside the box though. How about, Sheila goes upstairs and shoots the boys, Nevill races after her, see's what she has done, takes the gun off her and uses the last two bullets to shoot her dead. June starts screaming which gets on Nevill's last nerve so he goes and reloads and shoots her too. When the police eventually burst in he waves the gun at them and they shoot him 8 times in the kitchen. Realising this looks bad, they call the industrial frame department...

I don't understand the relevance of this.  I don't pretend that any scenario I come up with is going to be flawless, but I have not suggested anything out of the ordinary.

The only person who goes on about an 'industrial frame department' is Adam.  It's a silly response, and I lampooned it by suggesting that Jeremy should consult with an optician about obtaining some stylish industrial aesthetic glasses.

Yet, as I stated on another thread, there was a real 'industrial frame department' - at the Post Office.  And that is not the only example.  However, I have not suggested that this case has those features.

[Adam]

Not if he just stumbles backwards towards the landing from it. The blood on the wallpaper suggests he may have been leaning against the walls as he went, it's unlikely he was too steady on his feet. He's maybe dizzy from the shot to the jaw. JB may have followed him aiming further blows as he retreats down the stairs?
 

I see your point but you create the problem with the casings. There are now too many casings upstairs! How do you explain the blood on the wallpaper? I believe there was a spot of blood on the landing carpet too - it's unlikely June made it that far and she would have left far more blood if she was crawling?

I do like thinking outside the box though. How about, Sheila goes upstairs and shoots the boys, Nevill races after her, see's what she has done, takes the gun off her and uses the last two bullets to shoot her dead. June starts screaming which gets on Nevill's last nerve so he goes and reloads and shoots her too. When the police eventually burst in he waves the gun at them and they shoot him 8 times in the kitchen. Realising this looks bad, they call the industrial frame department...

You really need to provide a Sheila or Bamber scenario.

Please ensure both match the crime scene evidence.

[Adam]

I've already explained that the position of the casings cannot be relied on.  Police officers in heavy tread boots were traipsing all over the scene.

Blood was found on the landing.  I don't see why that could not have come from June.  It wasn't tested.  If Nevill is the one leaving the blood, why doesn't he leave similar blood stains on the upper part of the main stairway?

I don't understand the relevance of this.  I don't pretend that any scenario I come up with is going to be flawless, but I have not suggested anything out of the ordinary.

The only person who goes on about an 'industrial frame department' is Adam.  It's a silly response, and I lampooned it by suggesting that Jeremy should consult with an optician about obtaining some stylish industrial aesthetic glasses.

Yet, as I stated on another thread, there was a real 'industrial frame department' - at the Post Office.  And that is not the only example.  However, I have not suggested that this case has those features.

Doubtful officers would move one casing. Let alone 4.

Bamber & Sheila scenarios must match the crime scene.

[Adam]

I've already explained that the position of the casings cannot be relied on.  Police officers in heavy tread boots were traipsing all over the scene.

Blood was found on the landing.  I don't see why that could not have come from June.  It wasn't tested.  If Nevill is the one leaving the blood, why doesn't he leave similar blood stains on the upper part of the main stairway?

I don't understand the relevance of this.  I don't pretend that any scenario I come up with is going to be flawless, but I have not suggested anything out of the ordinary.

The only person who goes on about an 'industrial frame department' is Adam.  It's a silly response, and I lampooned it by suggesting that Jeremy should consult with an optician about obtaining some stylish industrial aesthetic glasses.

Yet, as I stated on another thread, there was a real 'industrial frame department' - at the Post Office.  And that is not the only example.  However, I have not suggested that this case has those features.

June did not leave the bedroom.

The evidence shows this.

[Armchair Detective]

What do you think of my scenario?

QC thinks it is 'improbable' that Nevill leaves the bedroom after being shot 4 times.

It's the most straightforward scenario for JB being the killer and the one I personally believe to be most likely but I am open to other suggestions.

I don't find that improbable at all.

[Adam]

It's the most straightforward scenario for JB being the killer and the one I personally believe to be most likely but I am open to other suggestions.

I don't find that improbable at all.

Thank you.

[Adam]

It's the most straightforward scenario for JB being the killer and the one I personally believe to be most likely but I am open to other suggestions.

I don't find that improbable at all.

QC is certainly giving 'other suggestions'.

[Adam]

The 4 casings in the main bedroom where QC says Nevill 'didn't' sleep. Where did the police kick them from?

[Armchair Detective]

I've already explained that the position of the casings cannot be relied on.  Police officers in heavy tread boots were traipsing all over the scene.

So they accidentally picked up 4 casings and managed to deposit them all in the bedroom?

Blood was found on the landing.  I don't see why that could not have come from June.  It wasn't tested.  If Nevill is the one leaving the blood, why doesn't he leave similar blood stains on the upper part of the main stairway?

Possible I suppose. Somebody has pointed out before that both June and Sheila's feet appear to be at unnatural angles, as if they have been dragged by them but I would have expected more blood or smears of blood on the hall carpet

I don't understand the relevance of this.  I don't pretend that any scenario I come up with is going to be flawless, but I have not suggested anything out of the ordinary.

The only person who goes on about an 'industrial frame department' is Adam.  It's a silly response, and I lampooned it by suggesting that Jeremy should consult with an optician about obtaining some stylish industrial aesthetic glasses.

Yet, as I stated on another thread, there was a real 'industrial frame department' - at the Post Office.  And that is not the only example.  However, I have not suggested that this case has those features.

I was being flippant but my point really was that you can create all kinds of scenarios that roughly fit the evidence because there are so many loose ends to pull on. Jeremy Bamber and his CT certainly believe in an industrial frame and there is a tendency with some to substitute a conspiracy for rational thought if it gets them where they want. The evidence doesn't lend itself well to any straightforward scenario no matter who the killer was.

I haven't got around to reading very much about the PO scandal yet so I can't really comment but yes, conspiracies do happen, just as miscarriages of justice do