A Jeremy Scenario

[Rob_]

Well, June would be shot in the master bedroom, I think.  But Jeremy would surmise her as she is on the landing, yes, and she then backs away.

I still think you and Cambridgecutie should have that mud-wrestling Royal Rumble, Adam, to decide once and for all who is the Head Guilter.  Remember that NGB1066 can officiate, so it's all done fairly.

Can forum members have a front seat QC!

It's worrying there are so many scenarios to me anyway, if JB is guilty it should be quite easy to have a scenario that fits the crime scene, and not have JB instantly giving himself away?

[Adam]

I believe it has always been this way? Scammers use this trick a lot even today.

If JB faked the call from WHF he would have had to terminate the call before he left?

The best routine would be -

Ring his cottage from WHF.

Wait for the answering machine - 6 to 10 rings.

Leave a short message on his answering machine.

Put the phone down at WHF.

Take the WHF phone back off the hook.

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That matches what Bamber told the police & the WHF evidence.

[Adam]

Can forum members have a front seat QC!

It's worrying there are so many scenarios to me anyway, if JB is guilty it should be quite easy to have a scenario that fits the crime scene, and not have JB instantly giving himself away?

I'll quote the one already on this thread.

It matches the evidence. 

[Adam]

Here is a more straight forward scenario. Which matches the evidence.

Cycle to WHF:

Evidence - June's bike brought over to Bamber's cottage just before massacre.  Easy journey. Unseen.


Get into WHF

Evidence - Bathroom window loose or open. Quiet ground floor entrance. Bamber said he knew how to get in through this window.

Pick up rifle:

Evidence ' Rifle available as stated by Bamber.


Fire one bullet into each twin.

Evidence - Julie said the twins were shot first.


Enter main bedroom:

Evidence - Two adults in this room who must be killed with remaining 9 bullets as potential to provide most resistance.


Shoot an in bed June and Neville:

Evidence - 9 shots were fired in the main bedroom opening salvo suggesting rifle was emptied in opening salvo.   June and Neville shot in or near the bed.


Go to reload or chase Neville:

Evidence - Spare bullets found in kitchen. Neville found in kitchen.


Kitchen fight:

Evidence - Neville was brutally beaten there.  Upturned and smashed kitchen items. Scratch marks on aga.


Reload, shoot and kill a knocked out Neville:

Evidence - Four kitchen head shots into Neville.


Reload. Return upstairs:

Evidence - All other shots upstairs.


Shoot June twice more:

Evidence - June had moved a few feet. Final shots required. Two of June's 7 shots would have killed her quickly.


Shoot the sleeping twins more times

Evidence - Twins shot 8 times in bed. Amount of bullets used shows two reloads carried out on the night.


Either wake and shoot or shoot an already awake Sheila:

Evidence - Sheila found shot in the corner of main bedroom. Sheila on Haloperidol so easy to control.


Go downstairs to check on Nevill

Evidence - Nevill was downstairs.


Remove & replace silencer. Move Nevill. Burn his back.

Evidence - Silencer with Sheila's blood & aga paint on/in found in cupboard. Nevill's back burnt. Nevill lifted onto coal scuttle.


Stage the scene:

Evidence - Gun and bible by Sheila.


Exit out of kitchen window:


Evidence - Twenty sources say it can be banged shut from outside. Housekeeper said items moved by kitchen window.on night of massacre.


Cycle home:

Evidence - Bike found at Bambers cottage

For Rob.

[guest29835]

I believe it has always been this way? Scammers use this trick a lot even today.

If JB faked the call from WHF he would have had to terminate the call before he left?

Yes, if you're correct, that seems to be the logical implication of it as we cannot otherwise explain his phone calls to Julie and the police at a point when he would not still be at the farm. 

What it also means is that when terminating the call at the farmhouse end, he has to leave the handset off, so that he can get an engaged tone at the other end when making a potentially traceable call back to Nevill (and also so that it will look like somebody has used that specific phone).

This means we come full circle.  The problem is that he has to be seen (or potentially seen) coming out of Bourtree Cottage at 3.37 a.m., or whatever the time was.  At the same time, if you're correct, this means we also have another reason he can't use an answerphone as an aid because you still need somebody to terminate the call at the farm end.

This means, if he is guilty, and if we assume he believes that there could be a trace of calls somewhere (which seems a reasonable assumption to make), then the only way he can do this is by staging a call (making one up won't be enough), which in turn means he has to make the call from the farmhouse to Bourtree Cottage, then immediately terminate it and leave the handset off. 

This leaves him with only one option, which is to take the bike back with him to Bourtree Cottage, just as the police say. 

A flaw in this is the follow-up call to Nevill.  I accept that Jeremy would get the engaged tone when ringing back, but there will be a 10 to 15 minute gap - at minimum. 

What I think we can conclude is that if you have got the technical telephony parts of this right, then the bike was actually crucial to his plans, but it rests on the bike getting him back to Bourtree Cottage reasonably swiftly - say, within 10 to 15 minutes, and even then he is leaving a suspicious gap.  I do find it very hard to believe he would use a ladies push bike over farm tracks, and in the dark too, probably without lights.

It does raise the whole question of why stage these phone calls?  Why not just take the risk of questions about Nevill's body being found in the kitchen?  He is creating a rod for his own back.

[Rob_]

Thanks Adam, I have read this many times.

There are many problems for me for instance in no particular order:

1) A crack shooter creeps into a bedroom and fails to eliminate his main threat I don't buy this.
2) You have Nevil rushing past JB in the bedroom, sorry no.
3) JB would not have put the silencer in the cupboard.
4) The shots to Sheila are a mystery to me if she was not drugged.
5) The whole thing is so so risky, only two suspects would he really attempt it?

There is a much easier solution?

[Adam]

Yes, if you're correct, that seems to be the logical implication of it as we cannot otherwise explain his phone calls to Julie and the police at a point when he would not still be at the farm. 

What it also means is that when terminating the call at the farmhouse end, he has to leave the handset off, so that he can get an engaged tone at the other end when making a potentially traceable call back to Nevill (and also so that it will look like somebody has used that specific phone).

This means we come full circle.  The problem is that he has to be seen (or potentially seen) coming out of Bourtree Cottage at 3.37 a.m., or whatever the time was.  At the same time, if you're correct, this means we also have another reason he can't use an answerphone as an aid because you still need somebody to terminate the call at the farm end.

This means, if he is guilty, and if we assume he believes that there could be a trace of calls somewhere (which seems a reasonable assumption to make), then the only way he can do this is by staging a call (making one up won't be enough), which in turn means he has to make the call from the farmhouse to Bourtree Cottage, then immediately terminate it and leave the handset off. 

This leaves him with only one option, which is to take the bike back with him to Bourtree Cottage, just as the police say. 

A flaw in this is the follow-up call to Nevill.  I accept that Jeremy would get the engaged tone when ringing back, but there will be a 10 to 15 minute gap - at minimum. 

What I think we can conclude is that if you have got the technical telephony parts of this right, then the bike was actually crucial to his plans, but it rests on the bike getting him back to Bourtree Cottage reasonably swiftly - say, within 10 to 15 minutes, and even then he is leaving a suspicious gap.  I do find it very hard to believe he would use a ladies push bike over farm tracks, and in the dark too, probably without lights.

It does raise the whole question of why stage these phone calls?  Why not just take the risk of questions about Nevill's body being found in the kitchen?  He is creating a rod for his own back.

I've just given a scenario in reply 166.

This matches what Bamber said -

Phone call from WHF.

He answered.

Call lasted 6 seconds.

Line went dead.

---------

If BT were able to check this, it would confirm.

[Adam]

Thanks Adam, I have read this many times.

There are many problems for me for instance in no particular order:

1) A crack shooter creeps into a bedroom and fails to eliminate his main threat I don't buy this.
2) You have Nevil rushing past JB in the bedroom, sorry no.
3) JB would not have put the silencer in the cupboard.
4) The shots to Sheila are a mystery to me if she was not drugged.
5) The whole thing is so so risky, only two suspects would he really attempt it?

There is a much easier solution?

Well he shot him 4 times. Twice in the face from inches away.

[Adam]

Thanks Adam, I have read this many times.

There are many problems for me for instance in no particular order:

1) A crack shooter creeps into a bedroom and fails to eliminate his main threat I don't buy this.
2) You have Nevil rushing past JB in the bedroom, sorry no.
3) JB would not have put the silencer in the cupboard.
4) The shots to Sheila are a mystery to me if she was not drugged.
5) The whole thing is so so risky, only two suspects would he really attempt it?

There is a much easier solution?

That is what the evidence shows. Unless Bamber went downstairs to re load & was followed.

[Adam]

Thanks Adam, I have read this many times.

There are many problems for me for instance in no particular order:

1) A crack shooter creeps into a bedroom and fails to eliminate his main threat I don't buy this.
2) You have Nevil rushing past JB in the bedroom, sorry no.
3) JB would not have put the silencer in the cupboard.
4) The shots to Sheila are a mystery to me if she was not drugged.
5) The whole thing is so so risky, only two suspects would he really attempt it?

There is a much easier solution?

Why not put it back in it's usual place after taking it off?

Again the submitted evidence shows he did.

[Adam]

Thanks Adam, I have read this many times.

There are many problems for me for instance in no particular order:

1) A crack shooter creeps into a bedroom and fails to eliminate his main threat I don't buy this.
2) You have Nevil rushing past JB in the bedroom, sorry no.
3) JB would not have put the silencer in the cupboard.
4) The shots to Sheila are a mystery to me if she was not drugged.
5) The whole thing is so so risky, only two suspects would he really attempt it?

There is a much easier solution?

She was on Haloperidol. Bamber had checked on her hours earlier.

He was ready to move her 20 yards. Probably by persuasion.

[Rob_]

Yes, if you're correct, that seems to be the logical implication of it as we cannot otherwise explain his phone calls to Julie and the police at a point when he would not still be at the farm. 

What it also means is that when terminating the call at the farmhouse end, he has to leave the handset off, so that he can get an engaged tone at the other end when making a potentially traceable call back to Nevill (and also so that it will look like somebody has used that specific phone).

This means we come full circle.  The problem is that he has to be seen (or potentially seen) coming out of Bourtree Cottage at 3.37 a.m., or whatever the time was.  At the same time, if you're correct, this means we also have another reason he can't use an answerphone as an aid because you still need somebody to terminate the call at the farm end.

This means, if he is guilty, and if we assume he believes that there could be a trace of calls somewhere (which seems a reasonable assumption to make), then the only way he can do this is by staging a call (making one up won't be enough), which in turn means he has to make the call from the farmhouse to Bourtree Cottage, then immediately terminate it and leave the handset off. 

This leaves him with only one option, which is to take the bike back with him to Bourtree Cottage, just as the police say. 

A flaw in this is the follow-up call to Nevill.  I accept that Jeremy would get the engaged tone when ringing back, but there will be a 10 to 15 minute gap - at minimum. 

What I think we can conclude is that if you have got the technical telephony parts of this right, then the bike was actually crucial to his plans, but it rests on the bike getting him back to Bourtree Cottage reasonably swiftly - say, within 10 to 15 minutes, and even then he is leaving a suspicious gap.  I do find it very hard to believe he would use a ladies push bike over farm tracks, and in the dark too, probably without lights.

It does raise the whole question of why stage these phone calls?  Why not just take the risk of questions about Nevill's body being found in the kitchen?  He is creating a rod for his own back.

If Jeremy feels he needs to stage the calls because of BT records, then he is stuck?

The cycle is the only option, and this gives him no time to get rid of evidence and smarten himself up etc.?

As you say if he believed the calls were recorded, why does he hang himself? he would commit the crime another way or just not make any calls and wait till the bodies are found in the morning?

[Adam]

Thanks Adam, I have read this many times.

There are many problems for me for instance in no particular order:

1) A crack shooter creeps into a bedroom and fails to eliminate his main threat I don't buy this.
2) You have Nevil rushing past JB in the bedroom, sorry no.
3) JB would not have put the silencer in the cupboard.
4) The shots to Sheila are a mystery to me if she was not drugged.
5) The whole thing is so so risky, only two suspects would he really attempt it?

There is a much easier solution?

Well the evidence shows it was not Sheila.

Crimes are risky.

[guest29835]

If Jeremy feels he needs to stage the calls because of BT records, then he is stuck?

The cycle is the only option, and this gives him no time to get rid of evidence and smarten himself up etc.?

As you say if he believed the calls were recorded, why does he hang himself? he would commit the crime another way or just not make any calls and wait till the bodies are found in the morning?

Adam and I went over this in a 2020 thread and I remember clearly remarking on how dogmatic Adam is about the bicycle.  He even insists that Jeremy went to the farmhouse by bicycle when the police have Jeremy going on foot, same as I suggest.

It's clear why Adam is so keen on June's bike being a factor in this.  He knows that without that bike, the case against Jeremy Bamber collapses.

[Rob_]

Well he shot him 4 times. Twice in the face from inches away.

A .22 from inches away is lethal Adam, how does JB mess this up? His first shot would be the end for poor Nevil. I hope you are not going to suggest that JB did this deliberately to make it look like Sheila?