A Jeremy Scenario

[Adam]

A valid point, but why not? Or why not have June leave his pyjamas in the downstairs shower room?  Or why not use pyjamas already downstairs, change downstairs and put his clothes in the wash?

Why shouldn't that have been his routine anyway?  He was a busy, hands-on farmer in the middle of a summer harvest.  Would June want him to be going in the main bedroom in dirty clothes?

It's worth thinking about.

Why would June do that?

Everyone went to bed between 8pm - 11pm. As highlighted by people's attire or being shot in bed. Or both.

It has been known for people to go to bed during that time period.

[Rob_]

Rob, I do find such very inhumane. given that back in the 60s, ladies, residents of our local Psych hospital, were taken down the road to the male facility to spend the night. This was done, purely on the grounds that regular sex was known to have a calming effect on the men. Naturally, all the ladies were fitted with contraceptive devices, or fed the contraceptive pill as part of their daily meds routine. How much more important is it to keep long term prisoners' equilibrium balanced?

I agree Jane it is inhumane, but a lot of the prisoners in Cat A are extremely dangerous and violent. I don't know how this sort of thing could be arranged safely?

[guest29835]

Why would do that.

Everyone went to bed between 8pm - 11pm. As highlighted by people's attire or being shot in bed. Or both.

It has been known for people to go to bed during that time period.

I've just explained why that could have happened in the post you have just quoted. 

Additionally Nevill did not go to bed between 8 and 11 at that time of year.  It's unlikely he would be done outside until at least about 10.45 p.m., maybe 11 p.m.  I repeat that this is the south of England during the summer harvest period.  He was in the habit of sitting up in the den, lounge (sitting room), or upstairs office with a brandy or whisky and he also walked Bruce.

I could imagine him having a habit of sleeping downstairs and drawing his pyjamas from somewhere like the airing cupboard in the downstairs shower room.  He could change into these after a shower, then have a drink and relax, then fall asleep where he was.  Maybe sometimes he just fell asleep in his work clothes, though we know that on this night, he didn't, he changed.

Equally, I agree, he could have gone upstairs, but this introduces a number of problems into the crime scene if Jeremy did it.

I think I have gone over this with you enough now.

[Jane]

I agree Jane it is inhumane, but a lot of the prisoners in Cat A are extremely dangerous and violent. I don't know how this sort of thing could be arranged safely?

I hear what you say. In the 60s meds would have been delivered as a matter of course, now we have human rights and meds may be refused. It may come down to a trade off? No meds, no nooky?

[Adam]

I've just explained why that could have happened in the post you have just quoted. 

Additionally Nevill did not go to bed between 8 and 11 at that time of year.  It's unlikely he would be done outside until at least about 10.45 p.m., maybe 11 p.m.  I repeat that this is the south of England during the summer harvest period.  He was in the habit of sitting up in the den, lounge (sitting room), or upstairs office with a brandy or whisky and he also walked Bruce.

I could imagine him having a habit of sleeping downstairs and drawing his pyjamas from somewhere like the airing cupboard in the downstairs shower room.  He could change into these after a shower, then have a drink and relax, then fall asleep where he was.  Maybe sometimes he just fell asleep in his work clothes, though we know that on this night, he didn't, he changed.

Equally, I agree, he could have gone upstairs, but this introduces a number of problems into the crime scene if Jeremy did it.

I think I have gone over this with you enough now.

In his pyjamas? Source please 

Anyway the evidence is he was shot 4 times in the main bedroom. Bare footed in his pyjamas.

[Rob_]

I've realised there is a flaw in my scenario in that if Jeremy uses an answerphone as suggested, that would then pinpoint the call at a particular time that would, in turn, make it impossible for Jeremy to then call the police from Bourtree Cottage within, say, 10 minutes of the alert from Nevill.

I think this is a point that has to be researched further because I don't remember how 1980s phones worked.  Is there anybody else here who knows the answer and can provide reliable sources?

Here we are assuming that Jeremy decides he has to stage a call (rather than just make one up), and notwithstanding that billing was non-itemised at that time, he assumes that there may be a way of pinpointing when calls are made, so he has to take precautions.

The obvious thing for Jeremy to do in this situation would be to:

(i). ring Bourtree Cottage from the farmhouse;
(ii). ensure there is a ring tone, then leave it to ring;
(iii). then terminate the call roughly 50 minutes or so later at Bourtree Cottage;
(iv). then ring the farmhouse from Bourtree Cottage, ensuring there is an engaged tone at the other end;
(v). then terminate that call.

Was this technically possible at that time?

The problem with this QC is that JB would not be able to terminate the call from Bourtree Cottage, only the caller can do this? Unless there is a maximum length of time that a call could be made in those days?

[Adam]

I've just explained why that could have happened in the post you have just quoted. 

Additionally Nevill did not go to bed between 8 and 11 at that time of year.  It's unlikely he would be done outside until at least about 10.45 p.m., maybe 11 p.m.  I repeat that this is the south of England during the summer harvest period.  He was in the habit of sitting up in the den, lounge (sitting room), or upstairs office with a brandy or whisky and he also walked Bruce.

I could imagine him having a habit of sleeping downstairs and drawing his pyjamas from somewhere like the airing cupboard in the downstairs shower room.  He could change into these after a shower, then have a drink and relax, then fall asleep where he was.  Maybe sometimes he just fell asleep in his work clothes, though we know that on this night, he didn't, he changed.

Equally, I agree, he could have gone upstairs, but this introduces a number of problems into the crime scene if Jeremy did it.

I think I have gone over this with you enough now.

What problems?

Bamber shot Nevill twice in the face from inches away while Nevill was still in bed. Then twice in the torso after Nevill stood up.

As the evidence shows. 

[Adam]

I've just explained why that could have happened in the post you have just quoted. 

Additionally Nevill did not go to bed between 8 and 11 at that time of year.  It's unlikely he would be done outside until at least about 10.45 p.m., maybe 11 p.m.  I repeat that this is the south of England during the summer harvest period.  He was in the habit of sitting up in the den, lounge (sitting room), or upstairs office with a brandy or whisky and he also walked Bruce.

I could imagine him having a habit of sleeping downstairs and drawing his pyjamas from somewhere like the airing cupboard in the downstairs shower room.  He could change into these after a shower, then have a drink and relax, then fall asleep where he was.  Maybe sometimes he just fell asleep in his work clothes, though we know that on this night, he didn't, he changed.

Equally, I agree, he could have gone upstairs, but this introduces a number of problems into the crime scene if Jeremy did it.

I think I have gone over this with you enough now.

Why not sleep in his bed?  More comfortable.

[guest29835]

Adam has clearly never done manual labour.

[Adam]

It is interesting how people have different Bamber scenarios.

CC has Sheila tied up. QC has Bamber walking 6 miles, Nevill sleeping downstairs & June being shot in the landing.

[guest29835]

The problem with this QC is that JB would not be able to terminate the call from Bourtree Cottage, only the caller can do this? Unless there is a maximum length of time that a call could be made in those days?

OK, let's consider it.

The point is that he gets back to Bourtree Cottage, and we assume the phone is still ringing.  He answers the call from the farmhouse.  He then depresses the switch hook.  If he intends to call Julie straight away, he may press down on the switch hook with his finger to close it.  Otherwise, he'll close the switch hook with the handset itself. 

What you're saying, Rob, in specific terms is that depressing the switch hook would not end the call with the farmhouse, only a human operator at the farmhouse or at the BT end can do that.

I understand what you are saying and I recall this phenomenon myself from the 1980s and 1990s, possibly into the 2000s.  But were there specific conditions for this to occur or was it general to PB exchanges?

Possibly we need someone who is expert or informed in analogue telephony to assist here.

[lookout]

Nevill enjoyed a drink and a smoke when he'd returned walking the dogs after he'd done a full day with the harvesting, so he'd have been in his favourite chair in the lounge, relaxing before a quick shower then bed, which would have been quite late. I would have thought that this was a regular pattern of his as bedtime would have been delayed to make sure that June had been asleep first given that she was a bad sleeper-----the same as Sheila had also been.

[guest29835]

It is interesting how people have different Bamber scenarios.

CC has Sheila tied up. QC has Bamber walking 6 miles, Nevill sleeping downstairs & June being shot in the landing.

Well, June would be shot in the master bedroom, I think.  But Jeremy would surmise her as she is on the landing, yes, and she then backs away.

I still think you and Cambridgecutie should have that mud-wrestling Royal Rumble, Adam, to decide once and for all who is the Head Guilter.  Remember that NGB1066 can officiate, so it's all done fairly.

[Rob_]

OK, let's consider it.

The point is that he gets back to Bourtree Cottage, and we assume the phone is still ringing.  He answers the call from the farmhouse.  He then depresses the switch hook.  If he intends to call Julie straight away, he may press down on the switch hook with his finger to close it.  Otherwise, he'll close the switch hook with the handset itself. 

What you're saying, Rob, in specific terms is that depressing the switch hook would not end the call with the farmhouse, only a human operator at the farmhouse or at the BT end can do that.

I understand what you are saying and I recall this phenomenon myself from the 1980s and 1990s, possibly into the 2000s.  But were there specific conditions for this to occur or was it general to PB exchanges?

Possibly we need someone who is expert or informed in analogue telephony to assist here.

I believe it has always been this way? Scammers use this trick a lot even today.

If JB faked the call from WHF he would have had to terminate the call before he left?

[Adam]

OK, let's consider it.

The point is that he gets back to Bourtree Cottage, and we assume the phone is still ringing.  He answers the call from the farmhouse.  He then depresses the switch hook.  If he intends to call Julie straight away, he may press down on the switch hook with his finger to close it.  Otherwise, he'll close the switch hook with the handset itself. 

What you're saying, Rob, in specific terms is that depressing the switch hook would not end the call with the farmhouse, only a human operator at the farmhouse or at the BT end can do that.

I understand what you are saying and I recall this phenomenon myself from the 1980s and 1990s, possibly into the 2000s.  But were there specific conditions for this to occur or was it general to PB exchanges?

Possibly we need someone who is expert or informed in analogue telephony to assist here.

Thought his answering machine would take the call. Which would give the impression it was answered.

Or he could put his phone on mute, to avoid the chance of neighbours hearing a continuous ring.

Doubt the phone would still be ringing when he got back. Calls are automatically cut off if no answer after several minutes.