My Challenge To The Supporters

[guest7363]

What I am saying is, a person can live with psychosis to varying extents, alongside depression, suicidal ideation, seeming normality, odd behaviour, worsening episodes etc. It is a fluctuating situation. Mental health is not one size fits all. Claiming that a person experiencing psychosis wouldn't be able to plan anything is a sweeping statement. It's used by people who support guilt to try and 'box in' Sheila in to a constrained, limited pattern of behaviour to suit their stance on the case.

Wouldn’t the medication offer a similar pattern within patients Roch, each medication has a similar side effect ranging from expected to very rare type of thing?

[killingeve]

Which window specifically?

As the trial Judge said (at page 10E):

"… how he got there and out again whether by the kitchen window or any other means, though of interest, cannot affect the outcome of the case"

I don't believe this can be correct.  The reason can simply be explained by looking at any picture of Sheila lying dead on the bedroom floor.  See where the blood is around her mouth. 

Also, Sheila had no marks on her that would correspond to this, if we accept what the police and pathologist say about her injuries.

He may well have removed the gag and binds before shooting Sheila. 

Using some lightweight but strong item, such as the leggings Mrs Eaton observed hanging over the bannisters and questioned why they were there, wouldn't leave marks. 

I often walk to the supermarket and carry back heavy shopping just for the exercise (round trip of some 6 miles).  By the time I return the handles from the shopping bags have caused red linear marks on my hands but within a couple of minutes they are back to normal.  As I said he would have practised on Julie to understand what he could get away with. 

She also does not look like somebody who was in distress at the point of death.  I realise this point is a bit more subjective and debatable, but she looks to me like somebody who passed on in a calm state, having composed herself.

As you said the above is subjective.  Does the pathologist, or any other expert, provide testimony about a persons emotional state in such a scenario based on how they appear?  You need to get back to your horoscopes, tarot cards, tea leaves and other such nonsense.   

To me, this defies common sense.  Put yourself in the shoes of the killer.  The whole point of this is that he (if it's Jeremy) is catching them all in bed.  Why would he want to wake them up or alert them to his presence?  And what is the silencer for, if that is his aim?  I appreciate the point you make (later in this post) that Jeremy needs it to look like it was a frenzied attack, but you have also explained how Jeremy could construct a frenzied attack on the twins while they are still in bed.  Why not the case with his parents as well?

If he caught them all in bed how can he factor in the phone call made from the telephone in the kitchen?  All shots were made to look frenzied.  I explained the physics behind the ballistics the other day.  Bamber was a marksman.  He could have killed each victim with one gunshot wound to the head.  Maybe two to be on the safe side.  He used the silencer so Sheila was not fully aware of what was going on and so as not to wake the twins until it was their turn. 

Here he risks waking up the twins.  That makes no sense.  If the twins awake and start making noise, he could be rumbled.

He knows the twins are sound sleepers from when his parents looked after them during Sheila's hospital stay.  Also the party on the Saturday night.  In any event all he did was enter the room and wait for Mr Bamber to go downstairs.

Surely it would be more logical for him to take care of Nevill first.  Both you and Adam, and really all guilters, seem to have great difficulty with this point. 

If he shot Mr Bamber in bed how was he going to factor in the telephone call from the downstairs kitchen phone?  What he did worked perfectly hence the two senior officers at crime scene CSI Harris and DCI Jones along with the police surgeon all considered the case murder/suicide?

Could you explain to us in detail how the silencer physically can scratch the paintwork on the underside of the aga mantle?  I am not convinced that this is even possible.  It's another one of those things that everybody - even the pro-innocent camp - just assume is true without examining.

The paint on the silencer was found to match the layered paint from the mantle.  I don't believe anyone has ever provided a detailed account of exactly when and how the silencer made contact with the mantle other than during the 'violent struggle'.  Incidentally Justice Henriques said in the recent Sky docu he found the 'violent struggle' the most compelling of the case ie the impossibility of Sheila overpowering Mr Bamber.

Does it also fit with the ballistics and with the findings about the likelihood of the contact and close-contact wounds coming from the moderated rifle?

There hasn't been any evidence accepted by the review commission/appeal courts that Sheila's wounds were inflicted sans silencer.   

Where is he stood when he removes the silencer from the rifle? 

How would I know?  How can this ever be determined?  Why does it make any difference?

How does he manage to cross through the crime scene, including the kitchen, without leaving any traces of blood transfers in Nevill's den?

Blood transfers from where?  Don't forget Sheila's feet were described as "perfectly clean".  Maybe you subscribe to the theory of 'ritual cleansing'?  Either way no bloodstained footprints from anyone.  Or paw prints from Crispy. 

By the way, I thought Mr Boutflour found the silencer in a cardboard box in the gun cupboard?

Cardboard box in a plastic bag behind a dart board I understand.

[Jane]

What I am saying is, a person can live with psychosis to varying extents, alongside depression, suicidal ideation, seeming normality, odd behaviour, worsening episodes etc. It is a fluctuating situation. Mental health is not one size fits all. Claiming that a person experiencing psychosis wouldn't be able to plan anything is a sweeping statement. It's used by people who support guilt to try and 'box in' Sheila in to a constrained, limited pattern of behaviour to suit their stance on the case.

Ha! I don't know where you get that from, Roch. For the last fortnight of her life, I believe she was in deep depression and would have lacked the mental energy required to commit murder. The two psychotic episodes she is known to have had were as a result of being unmedicated and both landed her in hospital. She had NEVER previously, during those psychotic bouts -despite what's been said- aimed physical violence at anyone other than her own person.

[Adam]

As the trial Judge said (at page 10E):

"… how he got there and out again whether by the kitchen window or any other means, though of interest, cannot affect the outcome of the case"

He may well have removed the gag and binds before shooting Sheila. 

Using some lightweight but strong item, such as the leggings Mrs Eaton observed hanging over the bannisters and questioned why they were there, wouldn't leave marks. 

I often walk to the supermarket and carry back heavy shopping just for the exercise (round trip of some 6 miles).  By the time I return the handles from the shopping bags have caused red linear marks on my hands but within a couple of minutes they are back to normal.  As I said he would have practised on Julie to understand what he could get away with. 

As you said the above is subjective.  Does the pathologist, or any other expert, provide testimony about a persons emotional state in such a scenario based on how they appear?  You need to get back to your horoscopes, tarot cards, tea leaves and other such nonsense.   

If he caught them all in bed how can he factor in the phone call made from the telephone in the kitchen?  All shots were frenzied.  I explained the physics behind the ballistics the other day.  Bamber was a marksman.  He could have killed each victim with one gunshot wound to the head.  Maybe two to be on the safe side.  He used the silencer so Sheila was not fully aware of what was going on and so as not to wake the twins until it was their turn. 

He knows the twins are sound sleepers from when his parents looked after them during Sheila's hospital stay.  Also the party on the Saturday night.  In any event all he did was enter the room and wait for Mr Bamber to go downstairs.

If he shot Mr Bamber in bed how was he going to factor in the telephone call from the downstairs kitchen phone?  What he did worked perfectly hence the two senior officers at crime scene CSI Harris and DCI Jones along with the police surgeon all considered the case murder/suicide?

The paint on the silencer was found to match the layered paint from the mantle.  I don't believe anyone has ever provided a detailed account of exactly when and how the silencer made contact with the mantle other than during the 'violent struggle'.  Incidentally Justice Henriques said in the recent Sky docu he found the 'violent struggle' the most compelling of the case ie the impossibility of Sheila overpowering Mr Bamber.

There hasn't been any evidence accepted by the review commission/appeal courts that Sheila's wounds were inflicted sans silencer.   
 

How would I know?  How can this ever be determined?  Why does it make any difference?

Blood transfers from where?  Don't forget Sheila's feet were described as "perfectly clean".  Maybe you subscribe to the theory of 'ritual cleansing'?  Either way no bloodstained footprints from anyone.  Or paw prints from Crispy. 

Cardboard box in a plastic bag behind a dart board I understand.

If he shot Mr Bamber in bed how was he going to factor in the telephone call from the downstairs kitchen phone.

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The easiest route was to kill Nevill in bed. Then move him onto the bedroom floor. The bedroom phone can be put in the bedroom off the hook.

Maybe Bamber deliberating only shot Nevill twice in bed. Giving him the chance to get out of bed & collapse onto the bedroom floor. Espescially after two more shots. That would have saved Bamber having to move him.

However Bamber underestimated Nevill's strenght & overestimated the rifle power.

[Jane]

Can't reply to the above, but it does occur to me that if one of the big response cars was coming from Colchester, the Maldon road might have been quicker than going wide onto the A12?

[killingeve]

If he shot Mr Bamber in bed how was he going to factor in the telephone call from the downstairs kitchen phone.

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The easiest route was to kill Nevill in bed. Then move him onto the bedroom floor. The bedroom phone can be put in the bedroom off the hook.

Maybe Bamber deliberating only shot Nevill twice in bed. Giving him the chance to get out of bed & collapse onto the bedroom floor. Espescially after two more shots. That would have saved Bamber having to move him.

However Bamber underestimated Nevill's strenght & overestimated the rifle power.

Bamber had been around firearms all his life.  He was also a marksman at Greshams.  His strongest subjects at school were maths and science.  He would have a better than average understanding of ballistics and how the crime scene needed to stack up. 

[lookout]

Is a person experiencing psychosis not able to make irrational plans and commit irrational acts? Can psychosis not be incremental in its escalation? Can it not be teamed with depressive thoughts and suicidal ideation. Why does the guilty side try to own 'psychosis' and portray it as a one size fits all condition?

I've actually been in the company of a person in a psychotic state and their world and state of mind is far removed from the norm. What they say and think is real to them and the situation I was in at the time needed split second thinking before I was met with a fate worse than death----it was scary to say the least. This was a person who'd received the diagnosis but ran from the hospital before the proper medication was given and because I was known, I was the first port of call that the person ran to.
I put my own fear behind me and " obeyed " what the person wanted and went along with the flow of the conversation and " order " given to me-----with much caution. Lucid one minute trailing off on a tangent the next, there's no reasoning whatsoever plus an unpredictability about them.

To anyone who hasn't had personal experience of someone in a psychotic state, it's truly frightening but at the same time, upsetting to see someone you know reduced to an entirely different person. The condition broke the family up because there was also a predisposition to be violent which wasn't there before, so a complete change of character.
 

[Jane]

I've actually been in the company of a person in a psychotic state and their world and state of mind is far removed from the norm. What they say and think is real to them and the situation I was in at the time needed split second thinking before I was met with a fate worse than death----it was scary to say the least. This was a person who'd received the diagnosis but ran from the hospital before the proper medication was given and because I was known, I was the first port of call that the person ran to.
I put my own fear behind me and " obeyed " what the person wanted and went along with the flow of the conversation and " order " given to me-----with much caution. Lucid one minute trailing off on a tangent the next, there's no reasoning whatsoever plus an unpredictability about them.

To anyone who hasn't had personal experience of someone in a psychotic state, it's truly frightening but at the same time, upsetting to see someone you know reduced to an entirely different person. The condition broke the family up because there was also a predisposition to be violent which wasn't there before, so a complete change of character.
 

Which rather backs up what I suggested, ie The murders could have been happening around Sheila, who, having previously experienced psychosis may have believed herself to be in a nightmare state.

I DO appreciate how scary it is to be involved in someone's psychotic episode. My ex ma in law lost an eye and had her watch smashed whilst finding herself in the company of someone she was caring for who'd become psychotic -thankfully it had been her false eye!!! It seems this lady may have been hiding her pills. Recalling that it was her failure to take her meds which precipitated Sheila's second attack, I do wonder if doing such MAY be a sign of an imminent psychosis.

[lookout]

Which rather backs up what I suggested, ie The murders could have been happening around Sheila, who, having previously experienced psychosis may have believed herself to be in a nightmare state.

I DO appreciate how scary it is to be involved in someone's psychotic episode. My ex ma in law lost an eye and had her watch smashed whilst finding herself in the company of someone she was caring for who'd become psychotic -thankfully it had been her false eye!!! It seems this lady may have been hiding her pills. Recalling that it was her failure to take her meds which precipitated Sheila's second attack, I do wonder if doing such MAY be a sign of an imminent psychosis.

The person in question was a mild-mannered person until she tried to throw her mother downstairs, in the early hours of the morning. Police were called in but couldn't/ didn't do anything except take the mother to alternate accommodation away from the situation until there was some kind of resolution. The person fought with the police thinking they were spying on her and also spoke of the CND so that could have preyed on her mind as she barricaded herself indoors.

It's their visions/ delusions which are very real to them as though they're on a different planet.
Some dementia sufferers have similar symptoms and are worlds away from what they once were. I nursed a lovely gentleman many years ago, the head of a prestigious school and he could turn very violent, suddenly without warning, his poor wife was black and blue when he was admitted , both early 60's, but so out of character for him as we assured his wife that he didn't mean to be so cruel, it wasn't his fault.

This is why I see no difficulty whatsoever in Sheila carrying out these murders. I've seen too much of it in the past that these sick people can turn on a sixpence, it doesn't take much. I wonder about Nevill too and how far he could have been pushed ?! Two warring women in the house. They all needed a break   

[guest29835]

He may well have removed the gag and binds before shooting Sheila.

Yes, but this means he now has Sheila in a state of distress.  OK, maybe the disorientation and so on would help him at this point, so there may be something in what you say.

I am still not convinced he would have been able to bind her up without leaving marks on her, but perhaps leave that point for now.

You need to get back to your horoscopes, tarot cards, tea leaves and other such nonsense.

Could you please try to be civil? 

If he caught them all in bed how can he factor in the phone call made from the telephone in the kitchen?

You're assuming he planned the phone call.  Why?  If he planned this, why can't it be that he was going to shoot them all in bed, then ensure that Sheila's body was found somewhere about the house?  The plan then goes wrong because Nevill manages to escape from him.

Your scenario has Jeremy deliberately allowing Nevill to make for the stairs.  Isn't that a bit too risky?  A killer in this situation needs to be in control.

  All shots were made to look frenzied.  I explained the physics behind the ballistics the other day. 

Did you?  If you mean the calculations, they appear to tell us that only a moderate force is required for a penetrating wound.  As I explained, and as you yourself accept, the attack could be made to look frenzied while shooting everybody in bed.  It's much more risky to have people up and about and running around the house.

  He used the silencer so Sheila was not fully aware of what was going on and so as not to wake the twins until it was their turn.

That makes no sense to me.  Within your scenario, there is absolutely no need for the silencer as Jeremy subdues Sheila at the outset and then you have him deliberately waking the parents up and alerting them to his presence in the house.

  He knows the twins are sound sleepers from when his parents looked after them during Sheila's hospital stay.  Also the party on the Saturday night.  In any event all he did was enter the room and wait for Mr Bamber to go downstairs.

The point is that all that needs to happen is one of the twins to wake up and start making noise, and then his precise plan as you have laid out is potentially thrown into disarray.  What if one of the twins decides to run away and hide somewhere?

The paint on the silencer was found to match the layered paint from the mantle.  I don't believe anyone has ever provided a detailed account of exactly when and how the silencer made contact with the mantle other than during the 'violent struggle'.  Incidentally Justice Henriques said in the recent Sky docu he found the 'violent struggle' the most compelling of the case ie the impossibility of Sheila overpowering Mr Bamber.

I think the opposite to Justice Henriques.  Why would Jeremy have to struggle with Nevill at all?  Sheila might well have to, but if that struggle is after she has shot him, then Nevill is surely at a physical disadvantage.

Blood transfers from where?  Don't forget Sheila's feet were described as "perfectly clean".  Maybe you subscribe to the theory of 'ritual cleansing'?  Either way no bloodstained footprints from anyone.  Or paw prints from Crispy. 

I'm referring to blood prints from Jeremy.  How can it be that Jeremy has crossed the floor of the den and put his hand and arm in the gun cupboard without leaving any trace of blood?  Did he wash himself and change his boots before entering the back corridor? 

Paw prints from Crispy isn't such a strange notion either.

If Sheila's feet were, as you claim, perfectly clean, then she must have been carried by Jeremy to the master bedroom and she can't have struggled or moved around, yet you have Jeremy ungagging and untying her before shooting her.  She must have offered up no resistance, perhaps not realising what had just happened.

[lookout]

If Sheila's feet were clean then she was wearing socks/ shoes/ slippers 

[guest29835]

If Sheila's feet were clean then she was wearing socks/ shoes/ slippers 

The blue socks maybe?  In any event, why would Jeremy take her socks or slippers off?

[lookout]

The blue socks maybe?  In any event, why would Jeremy take her socks or slippers off?

SJ waltzed off with a pair of Sheila's flatties and told AE at the time " you didn't see that " . We've never known whether these shoes went to the lab. for testing.
Sheila could have worn them that night----squelching with blood in the carpets as she trod. I can't just remember where they were.

[killingeve]

Yes, but this means he now has Sheila in a state of distress.  OK, maybe the disorientation and so on would help him at this point, so there may be something in what you say.

I am still not convinced he would have been able to bind her up without leaving marks on her, but perhaps leave that point for now.

He had to control 3 adults in two separate rooms and make it look like a suicide. 

Could you please try to be civil?

It's difficult when you say silly things that aren't evidence based.
 

You're assuming he planned the phone call.  Why?  If he planned this, why can't it be that he was going to shoot them all in bed, then ensure that Sheila's body was found somewhere about the house?  The plan then goes wrong because Nevill manages to escape from him.

Why?  In his mind it was his alibi and it set the scene for Sheila going crazy with a gun. 

Your scenario has Jeremy deliberately allowing Nevill to make for the stairs.  Isn't that a bit too risky?  A killer in this situation needs to be in control.

There was never any doubt at any stage who was in control.  Bamber was in possession of a loaded firearm which he was very familiar with.  He was a marksman.  And had a pocket full of ammunition.

Did you?  If you mean the calculations, they appear to tell us that only a moderate force is required for a penetrating wound.  As I explained, and as you yourself accept, the attack could be made to look frenzied while shooting everybody in bed.  It's much more risky to have people up and about and running around the house.

What I posted did not mention moderate force.  It made reference to 1 - 3 joules of energy to cause a penetrating wound and the rifle/ammunition in this case equating to 124 joules of energy.  How could he shoot Mr Bamber in bed when he wanted to build in the phone call? 

That makes no sense to me.  Within your scenario, there is absolutely no need for the silencer as Jeremy subdues Sheila at the outset and then you have him deliberately waking the parents up and alerting them to his presence in the house.

He wanted to shoot the twins in their sleep.  He needed to subdue Sheila until it was her time.  And he needed Mr Bamber out and about of bed to support the telephone call. 

The point is that all that needs to happen is one of the twins to wake up and start making noise, and then his precise plan as you have laid out is potentially thrown into disarray.  What if one of the twins decides to run away and hide somewhere?

Very unlikely.  He was party to their stay at the farmhouse when Sheila was in hospital and knew they were sound sleepers.  Also saw how easy it was for them to be put to bed on the Saturday at night at the party when Julie read them a bedtime story.  The party was in full swing but they both slept soundly.

I think the opposite to Justice Henriques.  Why would Jeremy have to struggle with Nevill at all?  Sheila might well have to, but if that struggle is after she has shot him, then Nevill is surely at a physical disadvantage.

Justice Henriques had the final say.  I can only assume he based his decision on the pathological evidence which details Mr Bamber's non gunshot injuries.

I'm referring to blood prints from Jeremy.  How can it be that Jeremy has crossed the floor of the den and put his hand and arm in the gun cupboard without leaving any trace of blood?  Did he wash himself and change his boots before entering the back corridor? 

Paw prints from Crispy isn't such a strange notion either.

If Sheila's feet were, as you claim, perfectly clean, then she must have been carried by Jeremy to the master bedroom and she can't have struggled or moved around, yet you have Jeremy ungagging and untying her before shooting her.  She must have offered up no resistance, perhaps not realising what had just happened.

Where is all this blood you refer to?  Whoever you believe carried out the murders had to move around the property but there's no evidence of bloodstained footprints from anyone or Crispy's paw prints for that matter. 

If you think Sheila cleaned herself then did she also wash the carpets with a 1001? (no Vanish then). 

[killingeve]

SJ waltzed off with a pair of Sheila's flatties and told AE at the time " you didn't see that " . We've never known whether these shoes went to the lab. for testing.
Sheila could have worn them that night----squelching with blood in the carpets as she trod. I can't just remember where they were.

If Sheila was squelching with blood in the carpets as she trod then where are the footprints from the footwear?  Where's all the abudance of blood you refer to?