My Challenge To The Supporters

[Adam]

Another point is that, actually, if you stop and think about it, the idea of a violent struggle between Jeremy and Nevill makes very little sense.  It's another thing that everybody accepts without thinking about whether it's logical.  I've been through this previously with Adam in a couple of threads last year.  (To Adam's credit, those are some of his best posts to the Forum, as he was actually posting normally on those threads and it was a good discussion with him).

If Jeremy is armed, then he must shoot Nevill.  He isn't going to start getting artsy about it.  He wants Nevill dead or incapacitated and he doesn't want Nevill to get to a phone.

One good point about Cambridgecutie's scenario is that she has learned from the flaws in other guilter scenarios and she has not fallen into the trap of trying to explain how Nevill makes it out of the bedroom, which is squaring a circle.

Instead, she very wisely has Nevill already on the stairs with Jeremy firing down at him.  I agree with Camrbridgecutie on this.  It fits the ballistics and injuries.  But I think I have explained above why I would dismiss the whole background scenario due to the implausibility of Jeremy wanting to wake everybody up and having them run around the house.  Nevertheless, regardless of how Nevill gets there, we still have to explain how Nevill makes it to the kitchen without Jeremy stopping him.

Jeremy can just kill him on the stairs or in the corridor, can't he? 

Why would Jeremy risk allowing Nevill to barricade himself in the kitchen and go for the phone? 

Also, why would Nevill stop at the kitchen?  Why not barricade himself in the den and grab a gun? Or even go for the exit, and on finding it locked, leave blooded prints there?

Why not stop by the downstairs shower room and grab one of the guns stored there?

Adam couldn't explain any of this, and I don't blame him.  I sportingly helped him by suggesting that Jeremy must have struggled on those narrow stairs with a long-barrelled rifle, but honestly, given the injuries Nevill had suffered, surely Jeremy would have caught up with him?

The truth is that Jeremy, if he is the killer, messed up.  He needed to kill Nevill in bed and somehow and for some unknown reason, that didn't happen, and he was left with a mess, but we are still left with this inexplicable hole in the scenario.

Now let's move into the kitchen and assume both of them are there.  We don't know why Jeremy has been so slack and allowed Nevill to get that far, but putting that aside, why does Jeremy need to struggle with Nevill at all?  I really don't understand that.

Guilters struggle with this and, clutching at straws, they say that Jeremy ran out of ammunition.  OK.  Well let's say that happened.  We're still left with the hole in the scenario earlier mentioned because Jeremy could still have attacked Nevill before he reached the kitchen, but if we're in the kitchen, why doesn't Nevill make for the back corridor and either exit the farmhouse or retreat to the den?  Why isn't there blood on the door between the back corridor and the kitchen?

These problems also slightly apply to a Sheila scenario as well, but they are easier to reconcile with Sheila as the killer, in my view. 

Why?

Because a fight between Nevill and Sheila is much more likely in that situation than a fight between Jeremy and Nevill.  Jeremy doesn't need to fight Nevill, but Sheila would have to struggle with him.  That's one of the reasons a Sheila scenario seems more logical.

Baricade?

Nevill fled from a shooting man. He got caught up by Bamber in the kitchen.

[Roch]

Good to see the forum working better, in terms of discussion.

[Adam]

Another point is that, actually, if you stop and think about it, the idea of a violent struggle between Jeremy and Nevill makes very little sense.  It's another thing that everybody accepts without thinking about whether it's logical.  I've been through this previously with Adam in a couple of threads last year.  (To Adam's credit, those are some of his best posts to the Forum, as he was actually posting normally on those threads and it was a good discussion with him).

If Jeremy is armed, then he must shoot Nevill.  He isn't going to start getting artsy about it.  He wants Nevill dead or incapacitated and he doesn't want Nevill to get to a phone.

One good point about Cambridgecutie's scenario is that she has learned from the flaws in other guilter scenarios and she has not fallen into the trap of trying to explain how Nevill makes it out of the bedroom, which is squaring a circle.

Instead, she very wisely has Nevill already on the stairs with Jeremy firing down at him.  I agree with Camrbridgecutie on this.  It fits the ballistics and injuries.  But I think I have explained above why I would dismiss the whole background scenario due to the implausibility of Jeremy wanting to wake everybody up and having them run around the house.  Nevertheless, regardless of how Nevill gets there, we still have to explain how Nevill makes it to the kitchen without Jeremy stopping him.

Jeremy can just kill him on the stairs or in the corridor, can't he? 

Why would Jeremy risk allowing Nevill to barricade himself in the kitchen and go for the phone? 

Also, why would Nevill stop at the kitchen?  Why not barricade himself in the den and grab a gun? Or even go for the exit, and on finding it locked, leave blooded prints there?

Why not stop by the downstairs shower room and grab one of the guns stored there?

Adam couldn't explain any of this, and I don't blame him.  I sportingly helped him by suggesting that Jeremy must have struggled on those narrow stairs with a long-barrelled rifle, but honestly, given the injuries Nevill had suffered, surely Jeremy would have caught up with him?

The truth is that Jeremy, if he is the killer, messed up.  He needed to kill Nevill in bed and somehow and for some unknown reason, that didn't happen, and he was left with a mess, but we are still left with this inexplicable hole in the scenario.

Now let's move into the kitchen and assume both of them are there.  We don't know why Jeremy has been so slack and allowed Nevill to get that far, but putting that aside, why does Jeremy need to struggle with Nevill at all?  I really don't understand that.

Guilters struggle with this and, clutching at straws, they say that Jeremy ran out of ammunition.  OK.  Well let's say that happened.  We're still left with the hole in the scenario earlier mentioned because Jeremy could still have attacked Nevill before he reached the kitchen, but if we're in the kitchen, why doesn't Nevill make for the back corridor and either exit the farmhouse or retreat to the den?  Why isn't there blood on the door between the back corridor and the kitchen?

These problems also slightly apply to a Sheila scenario as well, but they are easier to reconcile with Sheila as the killer, in my view. 

Why?

Because a fight between Nevill and Sheila is much more likely in that situation than a fight between Jeremy and Nevill.  Jeremy doesn't need to fight Nevill, but Sheila would have to struggle with him.  That's one of the reasons a Sheila scenario seems more logical.

Guns in downstairs shower room?

[Jane]

Good to see the forum working better, in terms of discussion.

100% agree, Roch

[guest7363]

Good to see the forum working better, in terms of discussion.

100% agree Roch, I leave the ship in better shape mate 👍

[Adam]

Another point is that, actually, if you stop and think about it, the idea of a violent struggle between Jeremy and Nevill makes very little sense.  It's another thing that everybody accepts without thinking about whether it's logical.  I've been through this previously with Adam in a couple of threads last year.  (To Adam's credit, those are some of his best posts to the Forum, as he was actually posting normally on those threads and it was a good discussion with him).

If Jeremy is armed, then he must shoot Nevill.  He isn't going to start getting artsy about it.  He wants Nevill dead or incapacitated and he doesn't want Nevill to get to a phone.

One good point about Cambridgecutie's scenario is that she has learned from the flaws in other guilter scenarios and she has not fallen into the trap of trying to explain how Nevill makes it out of the bedroom, which is squaring a circle.

Instead, she very wisely has Nevill already on the stairs with Jeremy firing down at him.  I agree with Camrbridgecutie on this.  It fits the ballistics and injuries.  But I think I have explained above why I would dismiss the whole background scenario due to the implausibility of Jeremy wanting to wake everybody up and having them run around the house.  Nevertheless, regardless of how Nevill gets there, we still have to explain how Nevill makes it to the kitchen without Jeremy stopping him.

Jeremy can just kill him on the stairs or in the corridor, can't he? 

Why would Jeremy risk allowing Nevill to barricade himself in the kitchen and go for the phone? 

Also, why would Nevill stop at the kitchen?  Why not barricade himself in the den and grab a gun? Or even go for the exit, and on finding it locked, leave blooded prints there?

Why not stop by the downstairs shower room and grab one of the guns stored there?

Adam couldn't explain any of this, and I don't blame him.  I sportingly helped him by suggesting that Jeremy must have struggled on those narrow stairs with a long-barrelled rifle, but honestly, given the injuries Nevill had suffered, surely Jeremy would have caught up with him?

The truth is that Jeremy, if he is the killer, messed up.  He needed to kill Nevill in bed and somehow and for some unknown reason, that didn't happen, and he was left with a mess, but we are still left with this inexplicable hole in the scenario.

Now let's move into the kitchen and assume both of them are there.  We don't know why Jeremy has been so slack and allowed Nevill to get that far, but putting that aside, why does Jeremy need to struggle with Nevill at all?  I really don't understand that.

Guilters struggle with this and, clutching at straws, they say that Jeremy ran out of ammunition.  OK.  Well let's say that happened.  We're still left with the hole in the scenario earlier mentioned because Jeremy could still have attacked Nevill before he reached the kitchen, but if we're in the kitchen, why doesn't Nevill make for the back corridor and either exit the farmhouse or retreat to the den?  Why isn't there blood on the door between the back corridor and the kitchen?

These problems also slightly apply to a Sheila scenario as well, but they are easier to reconcile with Sheila as the killer, in my view. 

Why?

Because a fight between Nevill and Sheila is much more likely in that situation than a fight between Jeremy and Nevill.  Jeremy doesn't need to fight Nevill, but Sheila would have to struggle with him.  That's one of the reasons a Sheila scenario seems more logical.

Why would Bamber want to do that? Much better to attack on a flat kitchen surface.

[Adam]

Another point is that, actually, if you stop and think about it, the idea of a violent struggle between Jeremy and Nevill makes very little sense.  It's another thing that everybody accepts without thinking about whether it's logical.  I've been through this previously with Adam in a couple of threads last year.  (To Adam's credit, those are some of his best posts to the Forum, as he was actually posting normally on those threads and it was a good discussion with him).

If Jeremy is armed, then he must shoot Nevill.  He isn't going to start getting artsy about it.  He wants Nevill dead or incapacitated and he doesn't want Nevill to get to a phone.

One good point about Cambridgecutie's scenario is that she has learned from the flaws in other guilter scenarios and she has not fallen into the trap of trying to explain how Nevill makes it out of the bedroom, which is squaring a circle.

Instead, she very wisely has Nevill already on the stairs with Jeremy firing down at him.  I agree with Camrbridgecutie on this.  It fits the ballistics and injuries.  But I think I have explained above why I would dismiss the whole background scenario due to the implausibility of Jeremy wanting to wake everybody up and having them run around the house.  Nevertheless, regardless of how Nevill gets there, we still have to explain how Nevill makes it to the kitchen without Jeremy stopping him.

Jeremy can just kill him on the stairs or in the corridor, can't he? 

Why would Jeremy risk allowing Nevill to barricade himself in the kitchen and go for the phone? 

Also, why would Nevill stop at the kitchen?  Why not barricade himself in the den and grab a gun? Or even go for the exit, and on finding it locked, leave blooded prints there?

Why not stop by the downstairs shower room and grab one of the guns stored there?

Adam couldn't explain any of this, and I don't blame him.  I sportingly helped him by suggesting that Jeremy must have struggled on those narrow stairs with a long-barrelled rifle, but honestly, given the injuries Nevill had suffered, surely Jeremy would have caught up with him?

The truth is that Jeremy, if he is the killer, messed up.  He needed to kill Nevill in bed and somehow and for some unknown reason, that didn't happen, and he was left with a mess, but we are still left with this inexplicable hole in the scenario.

Now let's move into the kitchen and assume both of them are there.  We don't know why Jeremy has been so slack and allowed Nevill to get that far, but putting that aside, why does Jeremy need to struggle with Nevill at all?  I really don't understand that.

Guilters struggle with this and, clutching at straws, they say that Jeremy ran out of ammunition.  OK.  Well let's say that happened.  We're still left with the hole in the scenario earlier mentioned because Jeremy could still have attacked Nevill before he reached the kitchen, but if we're in the kitchen, why doesn't Nevill make for the back corridor and either exit the farmhouse or retreat to the den?  Why isn't there blood on the door between the back corridor and the kitchen?

These problems also slightly apply to a Sheila scenario as well, but they are easier to reconcile with Sheila as the killer, in my view. 

Why?

Because a fight between Nevill and Sheila is much more likely in that situation than a fight between Jeremy and Nevill.  Jeremy doesn't need to fight Nevill, but Sheila would have to struggle with him.  That's one of the reasons a Sheila scenario seems more logical.

He did try.

[Rob_]

Jeremy would have avoided a fight at all costs and with his skills with a gun would not have had to fight, I don't anyway see evidence of one looking at the crime scene photos? Though I know one statement mentions the table overturned??

So all this about JB putting Nevil over the chair / scuttle beating / burning him just would not happen.

[Adam]

Another point is that, actually, if you stop and think about it, the idea of a violent struggle between Jeremy and Nevill makes very little sense.  It's another thing that everybody accepts without thinking about whether it's logical.  I've been through this previously with Adam in a couple of threads last year.  (To Adam's credit, those are some of his best posts to the Forum, as he was actually posting normally on those threads and it was a good discussion with him).

If Jeremy is armed, then he must shoot Nevill.  He isn't going to start getting artsy about it.  He wants Nevill dead or incapacitated and he doesn't want Nevill to get to a phone.

One good point about Cambridgecutie's scenario is that she has learned from the flaws in other guilter scenarios and she has not fallen into the trap of trying to explain how Nevill makes it out of the bedroom, which is squaring a circle.

Instead, she very wisely has Nevill already on the stairs with Jeremy firing down at him.  I agree with Camrbridgecutie on this.  It fits the ballistics and injuries.  But I think I have explained above why I would dismiss the whole background scenario due to the implausibility of Jeremy wanting to wake everybody up and having them run around the house.  Nevertheless, regardless of how Nevill gets there, we still have to explain how Nevill makes it to the kitchen without Jeremy stopping him.

Jeremy can just kill him on the stairs or in the corridor, can't he? 

Why would Jeremy risk allowing Nevill to barricade himself in the kitchen and go for the phone? 

Also, why would Nevill stop at the kitchen?  Why not barricade himself in the den and grab a gun? Or even go for the exit, and on finding it locked, leave blooded prints there?

Why not stop by the downstairs shower room and grab one of the guns stored there?

Adam couldn't explain any of this, and I don't blame him.  I sportingly helped him by suggesting that Jeremy must have struggled on those narrow stairs with a long-barrelled rifle, but honestly, given the injuries Nevill had suffered, surely Jeremy would have caught up with him?

The truth is that Jeremy, if he is the killer, messed up.  He needed to kill Nevill in bed and somehow and for some unknown reason, that didn't happen, and he was left with a mess, but we are still left with this inexplicable hole in the scenario.

Now let's move into the kitchen and assume both of them are there.  We don't know why Jeremy has been so slack and allowed Nevill to get that far, but putting that aside, why does Jeremy need to struggle with Nevill at all?  I really don't understand that.

Guilters struggle with this and, clutching at straws, they say that Jeremy ran out of ammunition.  OK.  Well let's say that happened.  We're still left with the hole in the scenario earlier mentioned because Jeremy could still have attacked Nevill before he reached the kitchen, but if we're in the kitchen, why doesn't Nevill make for the back corridor and either exit the farmhouse or retreat to the den?  Why isn't there blood on the door between the back corridor and the kitchen?

These problems also slightly apply to a Sheila scenario as well, but they are easier to reconcile with Sheila as the killer, in my view. 

Why?

Because a fight between Nevill and Sheila is much more likely in that situation than a fight between Jeremy and Nevill.  Jeremy doesn't need to fight Nevill, but Sheila would have to struggle with him.  That's one of the reasons a Sheila scenario seems more logical.

Why not wait until on a flat surface?

[Rob_]

Guns in downstairs shower room?

The one SJ took a picture of and destroyed Adam I believe?

[Adam]

Another point is that, actually, if you stop and think about it, the idea of a violent struggle between Jeremy and Nevill makes very little sense.  It's another thing that everybody accepts without thinking about whether it's logical.  I've been through this previously with Adam in a couple of threads last year.  (To Adam's credit, those are some of his best posts to the Forum, as he was actually posting normally on those threads and it was a good discussion with him).

If Jeremy is armed, then he must shoot Nevill.  He isn't going to start getting artsy about it.  He wants Nevill dead or incapacitated and he doesn't want Nevill to get to a phone.

One good point about Cambridgecutie's scenario is that she has learned from the flaws in other guilter scenarios and she has not fallen into the trap of trying to explain how Nevill makes it out of the bedroom, which is squaring a circle.

Instead, she very wisely has Nevill already on the stairs with Jeremy firing down at him.  I agree with Camrbridgecutie on this.  It fits the ballistics and injuries.  But I think I have explained above why I would dismiss the whole background scenario due to the implausibility of Jeremy wanting to wake everybody up and having them run around the house.  Nevertheless, regardless of how Nevill gets there, we still have to explain how Nevill makes it to the kitchen without Jeremy stopping him.

Jeremy can just kill him on the stairs or in the corridor, can't he? 

Why would Jeremy risk allowing Nevill to barricade himself in the kitchen and go for the phone? 

Also, why would Nevill stop at the kitchen?  Why not barricade himself in the den and grab a gun? Or even go for the exit, and on finding it locked, leave blooded prints there?

Why not stop by the downstairs shower room and grab one of the guns stored there?

Adam couldn't explain any of this, and I don't blame him.  I sportingly helped him by suggesting that Jeremy must have struggled on those narrow stairs with a long-barrelled rifle, but honestly, given the injuries Nevill had suffered, surely Jeremy would have caught up with him?

The truth is that Jeremy, if he is the killer, messed up.  He needed to kill Nevill in bed and somehow and for some unknown reason, that didn't happen, and he was left with a mess, but we are still left with this inexplicable hole in the scenario.

Now let's move into the kitchen and assume both of them are there.  We don't know why Jeremy has been so slack and allowed Nevill to get that far, but putting that aside, why does Jeremy need to struggle with Nevill at all?  I really don't understand that.

Guilters struggle with this and, clutching at straws, they say that Jeremy ran out of ammunition.  OK.  Well let's say that happened.  We're still left with the hole in the scenario earlier mentioned because Jeremy could still have attacked Nevill before he reached the kitchen, but if we're in the kitchen, why doesn't Nevill make for the back corridor and either exit the farmhouse or retreat to the den?  Why isn't there blood on the door between the back corridor and the kitchen?

These problems also slightly apply to a Sheila scenario as well, but they are easier to reconcile with Sheila as the killer, in my view. 

Why?

Because a fight between Nevill and Sheila is much more likely in that situation than a fight between Jeremy and Nevill.  Jeremy doesn't need to fight Nevill, but Sheila would have to struggle with him.  That's one of the reasons a Sheila scenario seems more logical.

Because Nevill was a 6.4 15 stone farmer fighting for his life.

Anyway it was more of an attack from Bamber on an injured Nevill.

[guest29835]

A variation on Cambridgecutie's scenario could be that Jeremy shot Sheila while she was bound up, then only realised she was still alive after taking her gag off.  The blood on Sheila's mouth would be due to the second shot in the main bedroom. 

I think another thing that is good about Cambridgecutie's scenario is that she has Jeremy take care of Sheila first.  This is the ideal approach if Jeremy is planning things out properly.  I suggested previously that one way he could have done this is by shooting Sheila in bed, then cleaning up in that room later.  This would entail some risk, but it would avoid the need to subdue Sheila.  It could also be that the second shot is in the main bedroom after he realises that the first shot did not kill her.  But I don't believe Jeremy actually went about it this way, if he is the killer.  I doubt his planning would have been that thorough.

[Adam]

Another point is that, actually, if you stop and think about it, the idea of a violent struggle between Jeremy and Nevill makes very little sense.  It's another thing that everybody accepts without thinking about whether it's logical.  I've been through this previously with Adam in a couple of threads last year.  (To Adam's credit, those are some of his best posts to the Forum, as he was actually posting normally on those threads and it was a good discussion with him).

If Jeremy is armed, then he must shoot Nevill.  He isn't going to start getting artsy about it.  He wants Nevill dead or incapacitated and he doesn't want Nevill to get to a phone.

One good point about Cambridgecutie's scenario is that she has learned from the flaws in other guilter scenarios and she has not fallen into the trap of trying to explain how Nevill makes it out of the bedroom, which is squaring a circle.

Instead, she very wisely has Nevill already on the stairs with Jeremy firing down at him.  I agree with Camrbridgecutie on this.  It fits the ballistics and injuries.  But I think I have explained above why I would dismiss the whole background scenario due to the implausibility of Jeremy wanting to wake everybody up and having them run around the house.  Nevertheless, regardless of how Nevill gets there, we still have to explain how Nevill makes it to the kitchen without Jeremy stopping him.

Jeremy can just kill him on the stairs or in the corridor, can't he? 

Why would Jeremy risk allowing Nevill to barricade himself in the kitchen and go for the phone? 

Also, why would Nevill stop at the kitchen?  Why not barricade himself in the den and grab a gun? Or even go for the exit, and on finding it locked, leave blooded prints there?

Why not stop by the downstairs shower room and grab one of the guns stored there?

Adam couldn't explain any of this, and I don't blame him.  I sportingly helped him by suggesting that Jeremy must have struggled on those narrow stairs with a long-barrelled rifle, but honestly, given the injuries Nevill had suffered, surely Jeremy would have caught up with him?

The truth is that Jeremy, if he is the killer, messed up.  He needed to kill Nevill in bed and somehow and for some unknown reason, that didn't happen, and he was left with a mess, but we are still left with this inexplicable hole in the scenario.

Now let's move into the kitchen and assume both of them are there.  We don't know why Jeremy has been so slack and allowed Nevill to get that far, but putting that aside, why does Jeremy need to struggle with Nevill at all?  I really don't understand that.

Guilters struggle with this and, clutching at straws, they say that Jeremy ran out of ammunition.  OK.  Well let's say that happened.  We're still left with the hole in the scenario earlier mentioned because Jeremy could still have attacked Nevill before he reached the kitchen, but if we're in the kitchen, why doesn't Nevill make for the back corridor and either exit the farmhouse or retreat to the den?  Why isn't there blood on the door between the back corridor and the kitchen?

These problems also slightly apply to a Sheila scenario as well, but they are easier to reconcile with Sheila as the killer, in my view. 

Why?

Because a fight between Nevill and Sheila is much more likely in that situation than a fight between Jeremy and Nevill.  Jeremy doesn't need to fight Nevill, but Sheila would have to struggle with him.  That's one of the reasons a Sheila scenario seems more logical.

Nevill would just use his massive height & weight advantage. Either before or after getting injured.

[JackieD]

You appear to be talking to yourself. Dementia perhaps? April an alias? I don't think so. I've never used a name which hasn't been my given name. Is that your explanation for your change from Jackie Preece to JackieD?

No I’m not. You post over on the red as April. I have always used used my own name. Stop being a complete weirdo and try answering David’s question or are you refusing

[Adam]

Jeremy would have avoided a fight at all costs and with his skills with a gun would not have had to fight, I don't anyway see evidence of one looking at the crime scene photos? Though I know one statement mentions the table overturned??

So all this about JB putting Nevil over the chair / scuttle beating / burning him just would not happen.

Who lifted Nevill onto the coal scuttle?