My Challenge To The Supporters

[Roch]

Roch, I can’t post Wests initial report for some reason my computer is playing up, but look at the information West receives and he passes on to Bews.  He tells West his sister has a history of mental illness and she’s got access to guns, surely you can see what those officers are preparing for en route.  Adams was listening in on radio chatter and told them he was available if requested, it wasn’t a matter of standing anyone down Roch.

OK RJ. Bill previously advised that FSU and TFG requires officers to be stood down from other duties, in order to form those groups. It was not a thing done lightly.  If West already has this info, what extra info does Bews obtain to request firearms?

[guest7363]

OK RJ. Bill previously advised that FSU and TFG requires officers to be stood down from other duties, in order to form those groups. It was not a thing done lightly.  If West already has this info, what extra info does Bews obtain to request firearms?

I can’t post Adams for some reason, but it’s available, but here’s West’s.  Bews would have been made aware of Sheila’s mental  illness and the message about guns, I would assume en route

https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6845.0;attach=41408

https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=189.0;attach=334

I’ve put the Adams one up I don’t know if it downloads though?

Wests Court evidence where Bamber told him that his sister had gone mad before.

https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1103.0;attach=5592

West then contacts Witham to tell them what he’d been told so they could respond.

https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1103.0;attach=5593

https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1103.0;attach=5593


So all this information would have been passed onto Bews and crew.

[lookout]

So why did Bews agree that it was " a trick of the light " when he had such information passed to him ?
What made the man lie ?

[Bill Robertson]

There is a nuance to Bill's argument that comes out of real-world experience and is being missed here.  Bill is saying that even with all the information available, the officers had little to go on that would justify bringing in armed police, especially in the context of 1985.  Thus, Bill asks why the officers did not investigate further themselves.

I think the real counter-argument to this is that there was every incentive for the officers in that situation to, in effect, transfer risk to armed officers, so they passed the initiative to HQ.  HQ then had the dilemma of either telling the officers to take their own initiative and undertake risks or err on the side of caution and bring in firearms officers.

If you then consider that the firearms officers were outside for several more hours, the whole thing has the feel of nobody wanting to grasp the nettle, perhaps because it was believed that somebody was still alive in there, or maybe because they didn't know if there was anybody alive in there.

We are still left, however, with the question of why the officers hurried back to the car.  If they wanted to act quickly to save lives, then what did they see to make them think that was possible?  And shouldn't they have gone in themselves?  I don't believe there is any final answer to that, as it appears Bews himself is unable to tell the truth about the situation, and we have not heard from the other officers, so we're left with Jeremy versus a retired police officer who has sided with his former employer, perhaps out of fear of the consequences of his 'uncertainty and confusion' (or lies?) about what he did or did not see.

All very sensible; let’s not overlook the fact that Bonnett records all FSU withdrawn from Colchester to collect their weapons from Chelmsford at 04:04, five minutes before Bews runs back from WHF.

[Jane]

So why did Bews agree that it was " a trick of the light " when he had such information passed to him ?
What made the man lie ?

At a guess, because what was thought to have been seen, hadn't actually been there? I imagine we all have thought we've seen things and have then been forced to acknowledge that it had only been "a trick of the light".

[guest7363]

So why did Bews agree that it was " a trick of the light " when he had such information passed to him ?
What made the man lie ?

At one point we thought we saw someone moving in the house but when we checked, it was the moon's reflection in the window".

[Jane]

All very sensible; let’s not overlook the fact that Bonnett records all FSU withdrawn from Colchester to collect their weapons from Chelmsford at 04:04, five minutes before Bews runs back from WHF.

Please! Not another manipulation of time! JB can't make up him mind what time he called whom, just changes times to fit. The police clock appears to have been wrong. Nevill allegedly called police a Xam -neither time nor call recorded. Now, it seems a time machine/clairvoyant has been introduced............or might it just have been because the clock was fast?!!

[Bill Robertson]

Please! Not another manipulation of time! JB can't make up him mind what time he called whom, just changes times to fit. The police clock appears to have been wrong. Nevill allegedly called police a Xam -neither time nor call recorded. Now, it seems a time machine/clairvoyant has been introduced............or might it just have been because the clock was fast?!!

No, because it was the clock in the headquarters information room which all agreed was accurate. Bonnett also recorded the information from CA7 five minutes later. So, no misreading of a clock involved.

[guest29835]

Roch, I can’t post Wests initial report for some reason my computer is playing up, but look at the information West receives and he passes on to Bews.  He tells West his sister has a history of mental illness and she’s got access to guns, surely you can see what those officers are preparing for en route.  Adams was listening in on radio chatter and told them he was available if requested, it wasn’t a matter of standing anyone down Roch.

What do you understand to be the chronology of actions and communications on the part of response officers at the farm in response to Jeremy's call, from their arrival at the farm up to the arrival of armed officers at 4.58 a.m?

[JackieD]

What was your view on Sheila's gun competency prior to your sudden and unexplained chance of stance in chorus with Caroline and Paul Harrison?

 

I can hear a pin drop. Try the alias April

[Rob_]

At what point do you think Bews was told shots had been fired, because Nevill never mentioned any shots had been fired to Jeremy?  Did Bamber hear shots fired and was he told at  this stage shots had been fired?

It does not help when Bews tells a different story every time I see him, it was such an important moment that night, in those days you did not call out armed backup very often and Bews and Myall do not even mention it in their statements!

Bews & Co. park a fair way away from the house, and while walking around see a reflection and run, I think they knew the situation was serious not just a domestic before they arrived?

Wests time in his log was correct I believe, there was a earlier call from Nevil.

[Adam]

What was your view on Sheila's gun competency prior to your sudden and unexplained chance of stance in chorus with Caroline and Paul Harrison?

Both Jane and Caroline were open in their stance change.

It was you who attempted a secret stance change as you had no reason.

[lookout]

Nevill's call to the police would have set the wheels in motion, followed by Jeremy's call. EP then knew what they were heading into which is why they all kept their distance from the property.

[Adam]

This is a good observation, but I can also see the point Bill is making.  Police practices are different today.  If this happened in 2021, armed police would respond immediately, whereas back in 1985, Bews could not rely on an immediate armed response and was expected to act more on his own initiative. 

Bews did not know that Sheila was inside with a gun because (from Bews' viewpoint at that moment in time) Jeremy did not know this.  All he had to go on was Jeremy's report of a call from his father, and when they arrived at the farmhouse, there was no noise and no sign of activity. 

Thus, there was nothing to report back to HQ that could justify an armed response.  Yes, today in 2021, it would be totally different.  Today, most British police forces are ultra-precautionary in their approach to such incidents, even when the facts are misty and unclear, and armed response officers are mobilised for a man carrying a water pistol (that has literally happened).  It's a totally different culture, due to a much more safety-conscious society.

Let's say Bews, or his colleague, reports back to HQ and says: "Right, I'm here.  Just walked back from the farmhouse.  Had a scout round outside.  Nothing happening, no activity, no sign of anybody.  The son is with me and says he had the phone call, which you already know about.  Says his sister is a nutter.  What shall we do?"

Would armed police have come in at that point?  Maybe, but I'm not convinced it's a certainty.  I acknowledge that we're guessing about a hypothesis, but consider it logically.

Now let's imagine a different conversation between Bews (or whoever) and HQ:

"Yeah, we've just jogged back from the farmhouse pretty sharpish as we think we saw movement in the upstairs window.  Not absolutely sure about that and no activity around the house, but the son is with me and says he had the phone call, which you already know about.  Says his sister is a nutter.  What shall we do?"

Remember also that Bews was himself a trained authorised firearms officer, albeit he was no longer serving in that specialism and not armed for his ordinary response duties that night.  I accept that fact could be read either way.  You could argue this made Bews more 'jumpy' than a more naive officer would have been and perhaps influenced his thoughts, observations and impressions.  On the other hand, we could give Bews credit as a highly-professional officer who saw all the signs of a dangerous situation and wasted no time getting back to the radio so he could alert HQ and set the wheels in motion.

Nevill said to Bamber 'Sheila's gone crazy and she's got the gun'.

[Steve_uk]

Still none the wiser re you or Jane. He clearly states he 'doesnt know' whether Sheila is the type to go berserk with a gun. With regards to her mental health issues - was he supposed to lie to Bews and downplay her mental health issues? If Bews had been speaking to Freddie Emani instead of Bamber - what would Freddie have said?

He certainly would not have said she had been recently indulging in target practice. A strange statement to make, possibly a Freudian slip.