My Challenge To The Supporters

[Roch]

Jane I give up, if you read Bews and his follow up in his statements, anyone with half a brain will see why he phoned for the Armed response, when Bamber mentions her being a Psychopath and capable of using guns.

Still none the wiser re you or Jane. He clearly states he 'doesnt know' whether Sheila is the type to go berserk with a gun. With regards to her mental health issues - was he supposed to lie to Bews and downplay her mental health issues? If Bews had been speaking to Freddie Emani instead of Bamber - what would Freddie have said?

[guest29835]

I think you need to keep your nose out!

No.  I am a member of this Forum.  You need to change your attitude and grow up.

[Jane]

Jane I give up, if you read Bews and his follow up in his statements, anyone with half a brain will see why he phoned for the Armed response, when Bamber mentions her being a Psychopath and capable of using guns.

And it's not possible to rewrite a script in the way we'd like it to be when the original can be produced to disprove it.

[Roch]

And it's not possible to rewrite a script in the way we'd like it to be when the original can be produced to disprove it.

You do realise that the example he posted up actually undermines his argument? 

[guest29835]

Still none the wiser re you or Jane. He clearly states he 'doesnt know' whether Sheila is the type to go berserk with a gun. With regards to her mental health issues - was he supposed to lie to Bews and downplay her mental health issues? If Bews had been speaking to Freddie Emani instead of Bamber - what would Freddie have said?

If we put aside Real Justice's reversion to type (the mask has slipped), he does make a valid point that Jeremy warned the response officers that there were guns in the house.  This has to be taken into account. 

I don't say you and Bill are right or wrong about this, but I do recognise the point being made by the innocent camp that without seeing movement in the window, there was little to go on.  Just because there are guns in the house and she is mentally-ill, it doesn't follow that armed police should be mobilised.  The 1980s was not a foreign country, but it was a different time and gun ownership was common-place in rural areas and it would be pretty unremarkable for rural police to hear about guns being left around.

But, at the same time, can you recognise that if Jeremy is telling the police that Nevill has told him that Sheila has gone crazy with the gun, or whatever, in that situation Bews might hurry back to the car in the belief that an armed response is needed (assuming that is what he asked Control for)?

For Control, the situation then defaults to:

- tell the officers to go inside and take a risk that they meet an armed woman who could shoot them;
- err on the side of caution and call in armed back-up.

The second option seems plausible even if nobody saw movement at the window or reported such.

But was movement at the window reported in any police radio log between the response officers and Control?

[guest7363]

Still none the wiser re you or Jane. He clearly states he 'doesnt know' whether Sheila is the type to go berserk with a gun. With regards to her mental health issues - was he supposed to lie to Bews and downplay her mental health issues? If Bews had been speaking to Freddie Emani instead of Bamber - what would Freddie have said?

Roch, it isn’t about Bamber lying, it’s what Bews is told and his interpretation, Bill is starting that Bews wasn’t aware of any risks when in fact he was!

[Roch]

Roch, it isn’t about Bamber lying, it’s what Bews is told and his interpretation, Bill is starting that Bews wasn’t aware of any risks when in fact he was!

Bamber does not reinforce that Sheila has gone berserk with a gun. He correctly confirms that there are guns in the farmhouse and that his sister has a history of mental health issues. Do you and Jane believe that Essex Police were unaware that farmhouses in rural Essex had guns inside them?

[Jane]

Still none the wiser re you or Jane. He clearly states he 'doesnt know' whether Sheila is the type to go berserk with a gun. With regards to her mental health issues - was he supposed to lie to Bews and downplay her mental health issues? If Bews had been speaking to Freddie Emani instead of Bamber - what would Freddie have said?

Freddie never claimed to have knowledge of Sheila's gun competency -one doesn't imagine such was ever spoken about during their conversations- JB made several claims regarding it.

[David1819]

Freddie never claimed to have knowledge of Sheila's gun competency -one doesn't imagine such was ever spoken about during their conversations- JB made several claims regarding it.

What was your view on Sheila's gun competency prior to your sudden and unexplained chance of stance in chorus with Caroline and Paul Harrison?

[guest7363]

Bamber does not reinforce that Sheila has gone berserk with a gun. He correctly confirms that there are guns in the farmhouse and that his sister has a history of mental health issues. Do you and Jane believe that Essex Police were unaware that farmhouses in rural Essex had guns inside them?

Again, I’m not questioning Bamber I’m telling you what Bews was told when he got there and why he made the decision to phone for armed response. Of course Essex police knew farms had guns, all Bamber tells them at this stage is his Sister is gone crazy she’s got the gun, he’s not mentioned shooting at this stage.  We had a similar incident when it was reported someone was known to have guns and could have them in his possession, we met two officers who did a reccie first and then triggered armed response. They didn’t go knocking on doors and we stationed then to keep watch till armed response arrived.  It would have been absolutely stupid for any officer to knock on doors no matter what a bill says.

[guest29835]

Bamber does not reinforce that Sheila has gone berserk with a gun. He correctly confirms that there are guns in the farmhouse and that his sister has a history of mental health issues. Do you and Jane believe that Essex Police were unaware that farmhouses in rural Essex had guns inside them?

There is a nuance to Bill's argument that comes out of real-world experience and is being missed here.  Bill is saying that even with all the information available, the officers had little to go on that would justify bringing in armed police, especially in the context of 1985.  Thus, Bill asks why the officers did not investigate further themselves.

I think the real counter-argument to this is that there was every incentive for the officers in that situation to, in effect, transfer risk to armed officers, so they passed the initiative to HQ.  HQ then had the dilemma of either telling the officers to take their own initiative and undertake risks or err on the side of caution and bring in firearms officers.

If you then consider that the firearms officers were outside for several more hours, the whole thing has the feel of nobody wanting to grasp the nettle, perhaps because it was believed that somebody was still alive in there, or maybe because they didn't know if there was anybody alive in there.

We are still left, however, with the question of why the officers hurried back to the car.  If they wanted to act quickly to save lives, then what did they see to make them think that was possible?  And shouldn't they have gone in themselves?  I don't believe there is any final answer to that, as it appears Bews himself is unable to tell the truth about the situation, and we have not heard from the other officers, so we're left with Jeremy versus a retired police officer who has sided with his former employer, perhaps out of fear of the consequences of his 'uncertainty and confusion' (or lies?) about what he did or did not see.

[Roch]

Again, I’m not questioning Bamber I’m telling you what Bews was told when he got there and why he made the decision to phone for armed response. Of course Essex police knew farms had guns, all Bamber tells them at this stage is his Sister is gone crazy she’s got the gun, he’s not mentioned shooting at this stage.  We had a similar incident when it was reported someone was known to have guns and could have them in his possession, we met two officers who did a reccie first and then triggered armed response. They didn’t go knocking on doors and we stationed then to keep watch till armed response arrived.  It would have been absolutely stupid for any officer to knock on doors no matter what a bill says.

I understand what you're saying. Bill is saying that in rural Essex in 1985, there would have needed to be something more in order for senior detectives to be called in the middle of the night, force arms to be drawn and officers stood down from other duties to form TFG.  Farmhouses had guns inside them in the 1980's.  Bews already knew that a female may have gone berserk inside, with a gun. That's why he was sent there in the first place. Why don't EP just release the full account of his situation report? Then we can see why very senior officers were contacted and permission given very quickly.

[guest7363]

I understand what you're saying. Bill is saying that in rural Essex in 1985, there would have needed to be something more in order for senior detectives to be called in the middle of the night, force arms to be drawn and officers stood down from other duties to form TFG.  Farmhouses had guns inside them in the 1980's.  Bews already knew that a female may have gone berserk inside, with a gun. That's why he was sent there in the first place. Why don't EP just release the full account of his situation report? Then we can see why very senior officers were contacted and permission given very quickly.

Roch, I can’t post Wests initial report for some reason my computer is playing up, but look at the information West receives and he passes on to Bews.  He tells West his sister has a history of mental illness and she’s got access to guns, surely you can see what those officers are preparing for en route.  Adams was listening in on radio chatter and told them he was available if requested, it wasn’t a matter of standing anyone down Roch.

[Jane]

I understand what you're saying. Bill is saying that in rural Essex in 1985, there would have needed to be something more in order for senior detectives to be called in the middle of the night, force arms to be drawn and officers stood down from other duties to form TFG.  Farmhouses had guns inside them in the 1980's.  Bews already knew that a female may have gone berserk inside, with a gun. That's why he was sent there in the first place. Why don't EP just release the full account of his situation report? Then we can see why very senior officers were contacted and permission given very quickly.

Perhaps the fact that there were children in the house may have had something to do with the decision to bring in armed back up?

[guest7363]

I understand what you're saying. Bill is saying that in rural Essex in 1985, there would have needed to be something more in order for senior detectives to be called in the middle of the night, force arms to be drawn and officers stood down from other duties to form TFG.  Farmhouses had guns inside them in the 1980's.  Bews already knew that a female may have gone berserk inside, with a gun. That's why he was sent there in the first place. Why don't EP just release the full account of his situation report? Then we can see why very senior officers were contacted and permission given very quickly.

Roch, once Armed response is called in it involves a lot different chain in command attending.