Nevill's call to Bamber. What was Sheila doing?

[guest7363]

Thinking about it, I don't think Jeremy could have heard Nevill say what he claims he heard.  It could have been something completely different and Jeremy has re-constructed the call in his head in light of what subsequently happened.

I find it more plausible that Nevill said something like: "Jeremy, come over will you, your sister's with me now and she's upset and I just need a hand..."

I don’t know QC he’s quite specific about the gun in his statement, he then goes into the fact where he’s left it and if it’s loaded?  Maybe this is troubling him the fact he left it loaded and he subconsciously thinks gun?

[guest7363]

Not quite.  If Jeremy is innocent, then my suspicion is that he couldn't remember what Nevill said other than that it was imperative he come over, and he then decided that he needed to tell the police what was said with some certainty, so he has made the wording up, perhaps believing that what he claims was said must approximate to what was actually said, given what subsequently happened.  Am I making sense here?

Oh sorry I mean his casual way of referring to it as a Gun instead of a rifle?  I think we’re at cross threads?

[guest7363]

Not quite.  If Jeremy is innocent, then my suspicion is that he couldn't remember what Nevill said other than that it was imperative he come over, and he then decided that he needed to tell the police what was said with some certainty, so he has made the wording up, perhaps believing that what he claims was said must approximate to what was actually said, given what subsequently happened.  Am I making sense here?

Yes you are making sense, that’s why I said he subconsciously could have thought Gun, because he thought shit I’ve left the Gun out and loaded?

[guest29835]

I don’t know QC he’s quite specific about the gun in his statement, he then goes into the fact where he’s left it and if it’s loaded?  Maybe this is troubling him the fact he left it loaded and he subconsciously thinks gun?

Yes, you're right, that the gun was fundamental to it, so the gun must have been mentioned in the call, but looking at this from a neutral standpoint, I honestly don't believe you can rely on what he says about the phone call or read too much into the semantics of 'gun' and 'rifle', etc.  He may have thought that he would look stupid if he just said, 'Sorry, can't remember exactly what my father said, I only know that he mentioned Sheila carrying on and I think he mentioned the rifle'. 

It's not a point that is intended to help or hinder him.  It's just what I think is a realistic view of it.

[guest29835]

Yes you are making sense, that’s why I said he subconsciously could have thought Gun, because he thought shit I’ve left the Gun out and loaded?

Yes, good point.  If he is innocent, his subconscious is at work and he is also influenced by what subsequently happened, and also the need to look convincing to the police.  Innocent people do also get confused and even lie.

[guest29835]

Yes, you're right, that the gun was fundamental to it, so the gun must have been mentioned in the call, but looking at this from a neutral standpoint, I honestly don't believe you can rely on what he says about the phone call or read too much into the semantics of 'gun' and 'rifle', etc.  He may have thought that he would look stupid if he just said, 'Sorry, can't remember exactly what my father said, I only know that he mentioned Sheila carrying on and I think he mentioned the rifle'. 

It's not a point that is intended to help or hinder him.  It's just what I think is a realistic view of it.

However, within Jeremy's innocent scenario, he did give an account of what was said within the space of a few minutes to PC West.  I stand by what I am saying about it, though.  I don't think we can rely on what he says about it at all, regardless of what stance you take in the case.

[guest29835]

A point from the other side of this:

Let me ask you, Real Justice, and anybody else interested, a hypothetical question.  Let's say you are awoken at 3 a.m. (or whatever time it was) by a phone call.  Would you be able to recall word-for-word what was said?  Even 10 minutes later, could you recall it?

I have to be honest and say that I think I would struggle and I'm impressed by Jeremy's feat of memory, as well as his ability to bounce out of bed at all hours.

I am sorry to say that Jeremy's ability to recall what Nevill told him with some precision does lend itself to the impression that the call never actually happened and Jeremy was reading from a script when he spoke to PC West and has been reading a script ever since.

I would have found it more plausible if he bluntly admitted that he couldn't remember exactly what was said and what he was reporting was just a representation of the call's theme - i.e. "My dad said Sheila was carrying on, he mentioned a rifle, and told me I needed to come over right away".

But I don't say I know.  I draw no firm conclusions.  Really, only Jeremy knows if he took that call because there is no independent technological way to corroborate either that he did or didn't.  If we're honest, we have to admit that.

[guest7363]

Yes, good point.  If he is innocent, his subconscious is at work and he is also influenced by what subsequently happened, and also the need to look convincing to the police.  Innocent people do also get confused and even lie.

Yes they go into overdrive and think what to say, this could account for his delay in phoning and why he never called 999, instead of it being a delaying tactic it could have been a damage limitation tactic for the fact he left the rifle out and loaded.  Having said that, if he hadn’t mentioned the fact he’d left the rifle out and loaded, would the Police have found this out in the end?

[Adam]

Yes.  In my view, the only way it can work is if he is using the phone call as a ruse - a sort of stalling tactic - and he feigns a 999 call or he tells her that he is ringing Jeremy, then when Jeremy comes on the phone and he mentions she has gone crazy with the gun (or something along those lines), she runs.

Jeremy would take time to answer the phone, which explains why he doesn't remember hearing anything other than his father's voice, as by that stage Sheila has maybe calmed down a bit, but Nevill then terminates the call to follow her upstairs.

That's the best I can do.

You are relying on a lot of maybe's.

If Nevill could spend several minutes ringing Bamber to in some way get a reaction from Sheila, wouldn't it be easier to just take the rifle off her.

Nevill would certainly get a reaction from Sheila if he just says those 11 words to Bamber.

[Adam]

If Sheila is in a rage with a loaded rifle, not sure how ringing Bamber is a delaying tactic.

Bamber is neither here or there to her at that time.

[guest29835]

You are relying on a lot of maybe's.

If Nevill could spend several minutes ringing Bamber to in some way get a reaction from Sheila, wouldn't it be easier to just take the rifle off her.

Nevill would certainly get a reaction from Sheila if he just says those 11 words to Bamber.

He wasn't ringing Jeremy to get a reaction from her.  He was ringing him to stall her and maybe as part of an effort to hand over the gun.  He may also have been feigning a 999 call or a call to the police.  Or it could be that Sheila was just stood or sat there with the gun and he rang Jeremy during a lull in the drama.  I don't know. 

What I am fairly sure of is that she must have been present with him for a Sheila scenario to work.  As I have said, this or some variation of it is the only plausible alternate scenario I can come up with. 

[guest29835]

If Sheila is in a rage with a loaded rifle, not sure how ringing Bamber is a delaying tactic.

Bamber is neither here or there to her at that time.

I have actually covered this, on this thread and when this has been discussed previously.  If you would kindly read what people say, you would at least be raising new points and not be repetitively raising the same objections.

[guest7363]

A point from the other side of this:

Let me ask you, Real Justice, and anybody else interested, a hypothetical question.  Let's say you are awoken at 3 a.m. (or whatever time it was) by a phone call.  Would you be able to recall word-for-word what was said?  Even 10 minutes later, could you recall it?

I am sorry to say that Jeremy's ability to recall what Nevill told him with some precision does lend itself to the impression that the call never actually happened and Jeremy was reading from a script when he spoke to PC West and has been reading a script ever since.

I would have found it more plausible if he bluntly admitted that he couldn't remember exactly what was said and what he was reporting was just a representation of the call's theme - i.e. "My dad said Sheila was carrying on, he mentioned a rifle, and told me I needed to come over right away".

But I don't say I know.  I draw no firm conclusions.  Really, only Jeremy knows if he took that call because there is no independent technological way to corroborate either that he did or didn't.  If we're honest, we have to admit that.

I must admit I wouldn’t remember, I would have to question it several times for it to sink in, I’m saying this now though, I don’t know when I was in my early twenties though I think I would be a lot sharper, I’m a light sleeper right from an early age who is used to getting up about 4.30/5.00 am pit time as we call it anyway I’m always awake at this time.  It would also depend (you can sense trouble in a voice) on the tone and speed of the voice.   

[Adam]

He wasn't ringing Jeremy to get a reaction from her.  He was ringing him to stall her and maybe as part of an effort to hand over the gun.  He may also have been feigning a 999 call or a call to the police.  Or it could be that Sheila was just stood or sat there with the gun and he rang Jeremy during a lull in the drama.  I don't know. 

What I am fairly sure of is that she must have been present with him for a Sheila scenario to work.  As I have said, this or some variation of it is the only plausible alternate scenario I can come up with.

How would ringing Bamber stall her?

If Nevill wanted the rifle, he would just take it off her.

[Adam]

I have actually covered this, on this thread and when this has been discussed previously.  If you would kindly read what people say, you would at least be raising new points and not be repetitively raising the same objections.

I'm sorry I don't read every post of yours.

Please explain how Nevill ringing Bamber benefits Nevill.