Nevill's call to Bamber. What was Sheila doing?

[guest7363]

Bamber said she was going crazy so this could mean she’s shouting and screaming, but when you add the fact he said she’s got the gun this is more life threatening and he wouldn’t want to let her venture out of sight?

Could it be Nevill didn’t realise the rifle was left loaded, not realising Bamber had primed it?  His natural thought would be, well she doesn’t know how to load it and use it anyway?

[guest7363]

Could it be Nevill didn’t realise the rifle was left loaded, not realising Bamber had primed it?  His natural thought would be, well she doesn’t know how to load it and use it anyway?

It was always said Nevill wouldn’t leave a loaded rifle/gun about the house?  I don’t think Nevill would use the term Gun by the way.

[guest29835]

It's not possible to know exactly how things played out. If could see the full contents of the original SC file, it might help a bit.

I agree we cannot know exactly what happened, but we can look at the evidence and make logical inferences.

My scenario addresses perfectly what would happen at both ends of the call, if Jeremy is innocent.

Nevill is using the phone call to Jeremy to stall Sheila.  Whether it was wise of him to do so is another matter and not important to the validity of the scenario.

Jeremy eventually awakens to the phone ringing, but understandably won't remember much about it.  As soon as he answers, Sheila runs upstairs and Nevill follows her, terminating the call. 

Jeremy claims what he claims about what Nevill said to him, but I don't consider it reliable because, if he is telling the truth, he was woken in the early hours of the morning and we can't expect reliability under those circumstances.  He will have been confused and will have fumbled about for some minutes while deciding what to do.  If he is innocent, then he is simply telling himself what he thinks he heard, which is not necessarily what he heard but what he has convinced himself of what he heard, which may have been influenced by subsequent events.

If, on the other hand, Jeremy is guilty and has invented a phone call (as opposed to staging one - a different thing), then he has taken a very fundamental risk because he was not a telecoms engineer or employed in that field, so would not know for sure whether there would be a traceable record of a call at the exchange, and he had no ready means to research and ascertain the position without running the risk of creating a witness or paper trail.

If, instead, he staged the call in the belief that some sort of record of calls may be held at the exchange, then he has the problem of how to get back to Bourtree Cottage within a set time limit without being seen.  If he is seen, by anyone, at any point, it's over (the exception being that if he is seen immediately outside the Cottage, he can explain that away).

[guest29835]

Could it be Nevill didn’t realise the rifle was left loaded, not realising Bamber had primed it?  His natural thought would be, well she doesn’t know how to load it and use it anyway?

This is a good point.  He wouldn't know.

[guest29835]

This is a good point.  He wouldn't know.

And I think he would still go after her if she made for the stairs, even if he assumed the rifle wasn't loaded or primed.

But I doubt he would make such an assumption.

[guest29835]

Apologies for the further post, but it also occurs to me that in the stand-off in the kitchen, Nevill may have been feigning a call to the police or 999.

[guest29835]

It was always said Nevill wouldn’t leave a loaded rifle/gun about the house?  I don’t think Nevill would use the term Gun by the way.

Weren't guns found all over the house?

As for using the term 'gun', as explained, I don't believe we can rely on what Jeremy reports of what Nevill said to him, even if he is telling the truth and did receive that call.  You can't hold him to a specific form of words.  It was the early hours of the morning.

[guest7363]

And I think he would still go after her if she made for the stairs, even if he assumed the rifle wasn't loaded or primed.

But I doubt he would make such an assumption.

If I’m right, the bullet box was next or near to the telephone, so in his eyes she can’t load it, he probably thinks he’s in control at this stage not realising it was loaded already?  I know it’s a long shot, but I’m trying to offer some thoughtful scenario’s?

[guest29835]

If I’m right, the bullet box was next or near to the telephone, so in his eyes she can’t load it, he probably thinks he’s in control at this stage not realising it was loaded already?  I know it’s a long shot, but I’m trying to offer some thoughtful scenario’s?

Yes, I think that could be.  Maybe a bit of arrogance or complacency entered his head?  She is a woman, small and slight.  She is mentally-ill.  He just thinks that she won't do much damage.  I have speculated along these lines before.  I also recall Lookout has mentioned a lot on here about how women like that can sometimes surprise men and catch them off-guard, and I find that is true.  Also, remember that it's his daughter, so she has a psychological advantage over him.

Of course, it's worth emphasising that here I assume Sheila is the killer, but should not be taken to mean I think she was.  It's just exploration of a scenario, as you say.  The phone call has to fit in to this for Jeremy to be innocent, and in my view that allows for only one possibility: that Sheila is with him when he makes the call.  I can't make the scenario work otherwise.

[guest7363]

If I’m right, the bullet box was next or near to the telephone, so in his eyes she can’t load it, he probably thinks he’s in control at this stage not realising it was loaded already?  I know it’s a long shot, but I’m trying to offer some thoughtful scenario’s?

Having said that, if Nevill was in charge of the situation he wouldn’t need to phone anyone?

[guest29835]

Having said that, if Nevill was in charge of the situation he wouldn’t need to phone anyone?

Yes.  In my view, the only way it can work is if he is using the phone call as a ruse - a sort of stalling tactic - and he feigns a 999 call or he tells her that he is ringing Jeremy, then when Jeremy comes on the phone and he mentions she has gone crazy with the gun (or something along those lines), she runs.

Jeremy would take time to answer the phone, which explains why he doesn't remember hearing anything other than his father's voice, as by that stage Sheila has maybe calmed down a bit, but Nevill then terminates the call to follow her upstairs.

That's the best I can do.

[guest7363]

Yes, I think that could be.  Maybe a bit of arrogance or complacency entered his head?  She is a woman, small and slight.  She is mentally-ill.  He just thinks that she won't do much damage.  I have speculated along these lines before.  I also recall Lookout has mentioned a lot on here about how women like that can sometimes surprise men and catch them off-guard, and I find that is true.  Also, remember that it's his daughter, so she has a psychological advantage over him.

Of course, it's worth emphasising that here I assume Sheila is the killer, but should not be taken to mean I think she was.  It's just exploration of a scenario, as you say.  The phone call has to fit in to this for Jeremy to be innocent, and in my view that allows for only one possibility: that Sheila is with him when he makes the call.  I can't make the scenario work otherwise.

I agree, it’s an interesting topic and worth debate, we’re often accused (not you in particular) of not looking at it from the other side, so here we are.

[guest7363]

Weren't guns found all over the house?

As for using the term 'gun', as explained, I don't believe we can rely on what Jeremy reports of what Nevill said to him, even if he is telling the truth and did receive that call.  You can't hold him to a specific form of words.  It was the early hours of the morning.

Yes, it could be just Jeremy’s casual way of putting it?

Without checking again I can’t remember where each rifle was located.

[guest29835]

I agree, it’s an interesting topic and worth debate, we’re often accused (not you in particular) of not looking at it from the other side, so here we are.

Thinking about it, I don't think Jeremy could have heard Nevill say what he claims he heard.  It could have been something completely different and Jeremy has re-constructed the call in his head in light of what subsequently happened.

I find it more plausible that Nevill said something like: "Jeremy, come over will you, your sister's with me now and she's upset and I just need a hand..."

[guest29835]

Yes, it could be just Jeremy’s casual way of putting it?

Not quite.  If Jeremy is innocent, then my suspicion is that he couldn't remember what Nevill said other than that it was imperative he come over, and he then decided that he needed to tell the police what was said with some certainty, so he has made the wording up, perhaps believing that what he claims was said must approximate to what was actually said, given what subsequently happened.  Am I making sense here?