Author Topic: Is Colin Caffell In Any Way Resposnible For Bamber?  (Read 7807 times)

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Offline killingeve

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Re: Is Colin Caffell In Any Way Resposnible For Bamber?
« Reply #60 on: November 01, 2021, 09:52:AM »

Lookout Colin was living rent free when he was was living with Sheila paid for by the Bambers

It’s in his statement as fact

And how does the fact Colin lived rent free in a property owned by the Bambers when he was married to Sheila (they split up in 1979 and lived separately thereafter) relate to the murders?

Colins attitude towards June was bad considering she was suffering from severe mental health problems

He was concerned about June's religiosity (for which she received psychiatric care) impacting on the twins who had expressed their concerns about such to their father. 

Colin promoted the doc/drama which was inaccurate and piss poor

I rather think you consider everything piss poor if it doesn't portray the child killer positively.  If you're so concerend about accuracy and quality then I suggest a first port of call would be to up your game here and make some decent posts.

He went on the Lorraine programme and told a massive lie that Sheila would have had to be a sharp shooter to have carried out the murders

The shooting happened at very close range

He was simply asserting the prosecution case at trial where Bamber was found guilty some 35 years ago of murdering his 2 little boys.

The question is why did Colin tell such a massive lie when solicitors were working on the case and hoping to get the case referred to the court of appeal at the time the doc/drama was going to be aired

The submission was only submitted to the commission in March of this year.  The ITV prog was aired at the beginning of 2020 so no idea what you're talking about.

It is a fact that Sheila  had discussed suicide with Colin which was clear from Colins reactions when the police told him about the murders

Suicide ideation is diffferent to carrying through.  Sheila's psychiatrist said she wasn't a risk.  Bamber no doubt picked up on talk of suicide hence his claims about committing the perfect murder with Sheila as the scapegoat. 

Trying to mislead the public like this is unforgivable

What exactly did he say that was misleading?

Offline killingeve

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Re: Is Colin Caffell In Any Way Resposnible For Bamber?
« Reply #61 on: November 01, 2021, 09:58:AM »
Yes it does matter considering you said that he hadn't lived rent-free since he split up with Sheila. You hate being cornered don't you ?

It's your irrelevancies that DO happen to be relevant to the murders. !

If you think I am wrong that Colin hadn't lived rent free in a property funded by the Bambers since he split up with Sheila in 1979 then please post your source otherwise all escape routes are open and I am not "cornered" at all.

If you think any of this is relevant to the murders then I suggest you contact Bamber's solicitor, support group or Bamber himself setting out the evidence relating to this matter and how it impacts his 1986 trial/conviction. 
« Last Edit: November 01, 2021, 10:01:AM by Cambridgecutie »

Offline JackieD

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Re: Is Colin Caffell In Any Way Resposnible For Bamber?
« Reply #62 on: November 01, 2021, 10:03:AM »
Colin lied fact

Unforgivable on such an important fact

He knew the truth that the person who carried out the murders didn’t have to be a sharpshooter

The question is WHY did he go on National TV and lie

He was promoting a book

Unbelievable

If anyone on this forum believes only a sharpshooter could have carried out the murders please post below

The things people will say to sell a book
Julie Mugford the main prosecution witness was guilty of numerous crimes, 13 separate cheque frauds, robbery, and drug dealing and also making a deal with a national newspaper before trial that if she could convince a jury her ex boyfriend was guilty of five murders she would receive £25,000

Offline killingeve

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Re: Is Colin Caffell In Any Way Resposnible For Bamber?
« Reply #63 on: November 01, 2021, 10:16:AM »
Colin lied fact

Unforgivable on such an important fact

He knew the truth that the person who carried out the murders didn’t have to be a sharpshooter

The question is WHY did he go on National TV and lie

He was promoting a book

Unbelievable

If anyone on this forum believes only a sharpshooter could have carried out the murders please post below

The things people will say to sell a book

He knew did he?  A ballistics expert?  Thought he was an artist?

An extract from the court of appeal hearing 2002 which highlights one of the points the prosecution relied upon at trial -

b) Save for the appellant nobody had seen her use a gun and she had no interest in them. Sheila Caffell also had very poor co-ordination and would not have been capable of loading and operating the rifle nor would she have had the required knowledge to do so;

Provide a source that the above originated from Colin. 

Offline lookout

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Re: Is Colin Caffell In Any Way Resposnible For Bamber?
« Reply #64 on: November 01, 2021, 10:18:AM »
This is what damn well annoys me that Colin KNOWS Jeremy hadn't committed the murders. He talks about forgiving Jeremy ?? What ?? If you KNEW someone had murdered your children, would you forgive them ?
Colin has to justify himself by saying this ( doesn't make him feel so guilty ) knowing that it WASN'T JB.

Offline killingeve

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Re: Is Colin Caffell In Any Way Resposnible For Bamber?
« Reply #65 on: November 01, 2021, 10:28:AM »
This is what damn well annoys me that Colin KNOWS Jeremy hadn't committed the murders. He talks about forgiving Jeremy ?? What ?? If you KNEW someone had murdered your children, would you forgive them ?
Colin has to justify himself by saying this ( doesn't make him feel so guilty ) knowing that it WASN'T JB.

Was Colin a prosecution witness at trial? 

Please post the full text you are referring to above so that we can read it in context. 

Offline lookout

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Re: Is Colin Caffell In Any Way Resposnible For Bamber?
« Reply #66 on: November 01, 2021, 10:30:AM »
I'm hoping upon hope that the CCRC can see through ALL the lies and deceit which was involved in this case. The more I think about it the more it becomes evident that every person involved had their own agendas for convicting JB. It's an absolute fact !

Offline killingeve

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Re: Is Colin Caffell In Any Way Resposnible For Bamber?
« Reply #67 on: November 01, 2021, 10:35:AM »
I'm hoping upon hope that the CCRC can see through ALL the lies and deceit which was involved in this case. The more I think about it the more it becomes evident that every person involved had their own agendas for convicting JB. It's an absolute fact !

As I said above was Colin a prosecution witness and please quote the full text you are referring to. 

I would think if the review commission read this forum they would throw away the key.  Nothing but utter nonsense from the likes of you and JackieD.

Offline lookout

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Re: Is Colin Caffell In Any Way Resposnible For Bamber?
« Reply #68 on: November 01, 2021, 10:41:AM »
Was Colin a prosecution witness at trial? 

Please post the full text you are referring to above so that we can read it in context.





I believe Colin spoke about forgiveness in his TV interview ( bet he felt like a saint  ::)) to give the public the impression that he'd been the ideal husband, father and friend to everyone.

Offline killingeve

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Re: Is Colin Caffell In Any Way Resposnible For Bamber?
« Reply #69 on: November 01, 2021, 10:51:AM »
I believe Colin spoke about forgiveness in his TV interview ( bet he felt like a saint  ::)) to give the public the impression that he'd been the ideal husband, father and friend to everyone.

What's the alternative to forgiveness in such a situation?  I believe Bamber is on record as saying something similar about his plight because to do otherwise would give him lines! 

Only Colin and Sheila know the ins and outs of their relationship.  I keep asking is their any evidence of Sheila complaining to anyone about Colin as a husband or as the father or her boys? 

You and JackieD seem like a pair of old fish wives gossiping and bad mouthing people who are so peripheral to the case they are really irrelevant especially 35/36 years on. 

Offline JackieD

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Re: Is Colin Caffell In Any Way Resposnible For Bamber?
« Reply #70 on: November 01, 2021, 11:11:AM »
As I said above was Colin a prosecution witness and please quote the full text you are referring to. 

I would think if the review commission read this forum they would throw away the key.  Nothing but utter nonsense from the likes of you and JackieD.


Troll answer the question

Why did Colin lie on National tv while trying to sell his book
Julie Mugford the main prosecution witness was guilty of numerous crimes, 13 separate cheque frauds, robbery, and drug dealing and also making a deal with a national newspaper before trial that if she could convince a jury her ex boyfriend was guilty of five murders she would receive £25,000

Offline killingeve

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Re: Is Colin Caffell In Any Way Resposnible For Bamber?
« Reply #71 on: November 01, 2021, 11:16:AM »

Troll answer the question

Why did Colin lie on National tv while trying to sell his book

I said you would lack the discipline to do what you said and ignore me

https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,10827.msg499722.html#msg499722

He didn't lie.  He simply relied on the prosecution case at trial.

Offline killingeve

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Re: Is Colin Caffell In Any Way Resposnible For Bamber?
« Reply #72 on: November 01, 2021, 11:31:AM »
JackieD/Lookout if you knew anything about the case, which you clearly don't, you would understand that Colin actually assisted Bamber at his 2002 appeal which was down to his honesty -

Ground 6 – letter from Colin Caffell 367. Much attention was devoted at trial to consideration of the state of Sheila Caffell's mind. It was common ground that she was a schizophrenic, and indeed she had been in St. Andrew's Hospital Northampton between 3 and 29 March 1985 when she had become acutely ill. Dr Ferguson, the consultant psychiatrist who was in charge of her case gave evidence for the defence, and his view was that she had responded fairly quickly to medication so that by the time she left hospital her illness was reduced to a manageable state. He did not think she was a significant suicide risk, and the suggestion that she had killed her family, particularly her father and her own children did not fit in with his concept of her.

368. The defence called another consultant psychiatrist, Dr Bradley, who had never treated nor indeed even met Sheila Caffell, and who gave the court the benefit of his opinion from the medical notes. His evidence amounted to no more than that he had experience of cases where mentally disturbed persons who believed that it would be for the good of the victims had killed children and others.

369. In addition, there was a body of evidence from non-expert witnesses who had spoken to or been in contact with Sheila Caffell in the days immediately preceding these killings. The trial judge devoted some eight pages of his summing up to all this evidence, and summarised its effect in the following way:

"Most of them saw signs of Sheila's illness which agreed entirely with Dr Ferguson's evidence about it. None of them, at any stage, knew of any physical violence by Sheila, although on occasions when she was acutely ill - as when Freddie saw her just before she went into hospital in March - they were frightened that she might become violent. All of them agree that she was loving - very loving - and caring for her twin sons. There was evidence that she sometimes had a difficult relationship with her mother. Everyone seems to agree that she was very attached to her father, and that he was the person who had a remarkably calming effect upon her. Dr Ferguson said that in his view she treated him as her mentor - a source of help and someone who could calm her when she was in trouble. There is no evidence from anyone of her ever expressing any violence towards her parents."

370. However, the appellant gave evidence of what is now described as an argument or quarrel between Sheila Caffell and her parents on the evening preceding the killings when he was present. The evidence that he gave was summarised by the trial judge in the following terms:

"The defendant in his evidence told you that on the evening of the 6th August, when he went into the farmhouse from time to time, his mum and dad, and Sheila, were having a meal and there was a discussion going on about what could be done to help Sheila's problems. He said that during that discussion mention was made of fostering to help with the children, not in the sense, apparently, of the children being taken away from Sheila, but in the sense of some local family being found who would help with the children - a local family near to the farm. He was asked how Sheila had reacted to that suggestion and he said "Well, she replied that she would rather stay in London, but generally did not appear to pay much attention". It does not appear from any evidence that Sheila was excited or disturbed by any such suggestion, or that she was in a highly disturbed state, or showing signs of that at the farm that evening."

371. The complaint under this ground of appeal is that there was in existence material that might have been relevant to Sheila's attitude towards her children in the form of a letter to Nevill Bamber drafted by Sheila's former husband, Colin Caffell (but never sent), shortly after her release from hospital on the 29 March. That letter expressed his concern about the effect that Sheila's mental condition was having on her ability to look after the two boys properly, to pay attention to their needs and requirements, to get them off to school in time and generally take care of them. He was also concerned about the influence that Mrs Bamber had upon the two boys. In fact, it appears from the evidence that he gave at trial that he himself was caring for the two children for about 95% of the time. He was seeking Nevill Bamber's support in convincing Sheila that the boys should continue to stay with him most of the time, and that he should have full control over their well-being. It is to be noted that he and Sheila had joint custody of the children.

372. This letter was referred to in a disclosed statement made by Mr Caffell on 11 September 1985. He actually produced the letter to the police officer who took the statement, and it was given an exhibit number (ARD/1) although technically it could never have been an exhibit. In such circumstances, the suggestion that this letter was never disclosed to the defence is, we have to say, manifestly unsustainable. So also is the assertion, implicit in the appellant's skeleton argument on this ground that the police at least in breach of their duty to ensure that all relevant material was disclosed failed, deliberately or inadvertently, to ensure that this material was drawn to the attention of the defence team. The reference to the document in the disclosed statement alerted the defence to its existence and it was for the defence to satisfy themselves as to whether or not it was relevant to the case that they wished to present to the court.

373. That conclusion is enough to dispose of this particular ground of appeal, but in deference to Mr Turner's submissions on the point we go further and express our view that this draft letter, even though it may have reflected Mr Caffell's views, was of minimal if any relevance to the issues that the jury had to consider. The letter was never sent; and there is no evidence that Mr Caffell's views, or his request was ever conveyed to Nevill Bamber, Sheila Caffell or any other member of the family. Mr Caffell himself was not present on the evening of 6 August when the discussion described by the trial judge took place. The most relevant evidence of Sheila's reaction to the suggestion that the boys should be fostered was that given by the appellant himself and related to a point in time only a matter of hours before the killing took place. It may be noted that for a period in 1982 and 1983 the boys had been cared for by a day foster mother living near Sheila Caffell in Camden, under the auspices of Camden Social Services, and this arrangement appears to have caused no difficulty. The arrangement being discussed on the evening of the 6 August, from the evidence given by the appellant, seems to have been of a similar nature.

374. However, Mr Turner sought permission to call before us further psychiatric evidence, primarily from Dr Ferguson. In the statement tendered to this court in support of this application Dr Ferguson suggests that if he had been aware of the letter from Colin Caffell with the possible scenario that he might take over full time care of the children from Sheila coupled with the possibility that Nevill Bamber might have pleaded Colin Caffell's case, he would have suggested that this could have had a potentially catastrophic effect on Sheila Caffell. This would have been partly because she would have been resistant to the suggestion of having her children removed from her care and partly because it might have transformed her image of her father from a support and mentor into that of a hostile figure.

375. However, it is clear that Dr Ferguson had already dealt with a broadly similar scenario in his evidence in chief. The evidence runs:

"Q. Having regard to your knowledge of Sheila, do you follow, how would you have expected her to have reacted to a suggestion that the children should be removed from her care?

A. I would have expected her, were this to be put to her suddenly, to be a very substantial threat and I would have expected her to react very strongly to what to her would be the loss of her children. I would not have expected her to be passive about that. "

376. He went on to say he had no way of knowing what form a strong reaction would take, whether it would be to become more psychotic, or more helpless or angry. He took the view that it would however be a very strong threat. He was asked by the trial judge what her likely response would have been to the prospect of daytime foster parenting. The Doctor replied that he did not think that she would have interpreted that as losing her children, and indeed she acknowledged considerable help in that regard.

377. It appears to us that when Dr Ferguson provided his most recent statement in support of this application he overlooked the fact that the letter written by Colin Caffell was never sent and there is no evidence that it ever came to Nevill Bamber's knowledge. He also does not appear to be aware of the very considerable extent to which Colin Caffell was, at the material time, already responsible for the day to day care of the two boys. In the circumstances it does not seem to us that Dr Ferguson is in any position to add significantly to the evidence that he gave to the jury in October of 1986. No new issue is raised which was not already fully before the jury, and in the circumstances it did not seem to us necessary or expedient in the interests of justice that further evidence on this topic should now be admitted before this court and we declined to hear such evidence. There is thus nothing of any substance in this ground and we reject it.

Ground 7 – the statement of Colin Caffell 378. The appellant complains that the Crown failed to disclose at trial the original hand written statement of Colin Caffell, which demonstrated that the typed version of his statement was incorrect. Further and alternatively, the police failed to disclose the fact that Colin Caffell had complained in respect of the discrepancy, and that they had failed to correct it.

379. In the statement dated 11 September 1985, Colin Caffell dealt with the general background and history of his relationship with his ex-wife and with other members of the Bamber family. In the course of this statement he referred to a discussion that he had had with the appellant on the 3 August 1985, after a party. The relevant passage in the original statement reads:

"After he'd dropped Sheila off he returned and we talked. During the course of which he mentioned that he also had been the subject of pressure to marry from his parents as I had been. He felt that I'd had a rough deal all along in respect of Sheila's illness and the attitude of the Bamber family to me. I've always been treated like an outsider."

380. When that statement was transcribed by a typist, the penultimate sentence of this passage was recorded as "he felt that he'd had a rough deal all along...". Having looked at the original hand-written statement we can readily understand how the typist came to make such a mistake, and indeed Mr Turner accepts that it probably was a genuine error. Furthermore, on reading the typescript, it is plainly obvious that there is some mis-typing in that script, as the passage as typed does not read sensibly or logically.

381. The suggestion that the original hand-written statement was not disclosed is nonsensical. The hand-written statement in accordance with the usual practice would have been lodged with the court, and was available for inspection by all parties. No suggestion to the contrary has been put forward by counsel or solicitors instructed at trial. Furthermore, it also conceded that this particular passage of Mr Caffell's statement was not led from him in evidence, nor was it cross-examined to. In the circumstances this error, insignificant as it is, cannot conceivably have any impact upon the safety of the verdict.

382. However, the appellant's contentions go further. About a year after he made that statement Mr Caffell wrote a private and confidential letter to Detective Superintendent Ainsley drawing his attention to the error. The letter complains that when Mr Caffell commented to DS Jones about this he said words to the effect "Oh, it's only a typing error, don't worry about it. It's correct on the hand-written statement isn't it? That's all that matters, so just sign it. If you change it, we'll have to have it all typed out again." The letter continues:-

"This has been niggling me for some time and I feel it must be important to have been included in the typed statement. When I asked Stan Jones about it again last week he said "leave it, whatever you do don't say anything about it in the witness box, it'll cause allsorts of trouble if you do"."

383. In a statement made recently, Detective Superintendent Ainsley says that he "does not actually recollect the letter". The letter was addressed to Mr Ainsley at Police Headquarters and he believed that it would have been forwarded to Witham where it would have been opened by the Incident Room staff. He says that he is surprised that nobody spoke to him about it. Mr Turner is critical of this response and suggests that it demonstrates further the dishonesty of Mr Ainsley and his willingness to cover up wrong doing in the inquiry. He points to the fact that the letter was not only addressed personally to Mr Ainsley but was also marked "Private and absolutely confidential." He argues that such a letter would inevitably be shown to Mr Ainsley even if not personally opened by him. It should be noted, perhaps, that there is nothing in Mr Ainsley's recent statement to show whether the envelope as well as the letter was drawn to hids attention.

384. On 15 September 1986, following receipt of the letter, DS Jones visited Mr Caffell to discuss his letter and the upshot of the discussion is recorded in Action No. 245 with the words "Mr Caffell realises he had got the facts wrong". The typing error went uncorrected.

385. The appellant contends that this episode is indicative of a mindset in the police officers in charge of the investigation in this case, certainly DS Jones and possibly also Mr Ainsley which made them willing to commit wrongful acts in order to obtain convictions. He suggests that this conduct indicates dishonesty and goes so far as to suggest that DS Jones was effectively counselling Mr Caffell to pervert the course of justice. This seems to us to be a grotesque exaggeration of the situation.

386. The original mistake was, as we have already made clear, no more than the sort of typing mistake that is inevitably to be found in a case where the documentation is on the sort of scale to be found in this case. It reveals something of the careful approach of Mr Caffell that he spotted the error and thought that a correction was required. When it was pointed out to him, DS Jones should have taken steps to see that the error was corrected. To suggest that he did not do so in order to secure a conviction at all cost does not stand up to even a moment's thought. The mistake was unlikely to mislead anyone since it was obvious from the context; the original was with the court's papers for examination; and no assessment of the position could possibly lead to a conclusion that even if not spotted this error would impact upon the outcome of the case.

387. That DS Jones did not take steps to ensure that an alteration was made has to be seen in the circumstances then prevailing. As Mr Temple points out, the officer was undoubtedly heavily engaged in preparations for the imminent trial, and he had many other things to do, which were undoubtedly more critical to ensuring that justice was done at the trial. The topic that was discussed in Mr Caffell's statement was entirely irrelevant to the issues at trial, as the subsequent decision of each side to raise the matter demonstrates.

388. The other aspect of the matter deserving of scrutiny is the conduct of the police once Mr Caffell had written to Mr Ainsley. We again remind ourselves of the observations of the court in Hanratty quoted above that it may well be impossible to discover the precise explanation for situations which give rise to a suspicion of impropriety years after the event. We think that if you make that allowance, it is wholly impossible to conclude from the fact that Mr Ainsley does not recall Mr Caffell's letter many years later that he is participating in some sort of cover up. Even if he did see that letter at that time, as Mr Turner suggests that he must, it does not surprise us that now he does not recall it.

389. Mr Ainsley makes the point in his statement that Mr Caffell was not a man who was easily fobbed off if issues he raised were not dealt with to his satisfaction and the very contents of his letter seem to us to demonstrate the truth of that assertion. It seems quite clear to us that the visit of DS Jones did reassure Mr Caffell that he was not being asked to do anything that was improper or inevitably he would have pursued the matter further. That is a view we would have formed on the available evidence but in any event it is supported by a statement taken from Mr Caffell on 13 August 2002 in which he said:

"I have been asked about the letter that I wrote to Mr Ainsley prior to the trial. Having read it I have a memory that Stan Jones visited me and showed me my original statement which was correct. I don't remember specific times or dates of his visits. I do know that seeing the statement put my mind at rest and as a result I was not concerned in the lead up to giving my evidence. The concerns in my letter were no longer in my mind. Stan Jones was a jovial type but was keen to stress that the police knew what they were doing. I understand that Jeremy Bamber's defence team having read this letter, suspect that there was some sort of skulduggery on the part of the police. I was not under this impression and saw the error in the statement as a clerical mistake."

390. We have little doubt that if, as seems to be the suggestion, DS Jones had invited Mr Caffell to lie either about the contents of his statement, or about the failure to alter the mistake, Mr Caffell was, and is, not the sort of person who would be persuaded that there was no "skulduggery" going on. It is clear from all the documentation relating to Mr Caffell that above all else he wanted to know what had really happened on the night when his sons were killed and that if he observed anything that might have deflected from his learning the truth, he would not have let the matter lie.

391. Accordingly, although we cannot now establish all the facts of what occurred in respect of this letter, we are sure that the only reasonable conclusion is that it reveals no failure on the part of the police to act properly other than the failure of DS Jones to ensure that the typing mistake was corrected, which for the reasons already given can have had no significance at trial. We therefore reject this ground.

Offline JackieD

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Re: Is Colin Caffell In Any Way Resposnible For Bamber?
« Reply #73 on: November 01, 2021, 11:40:AM »
I said you would lack the discipline to do what you said and ignore me

https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,10827.msg499722.html#msg499722

He didn't lie.  He simply relied on the prosecution case at trial.


I am dealing with your nastiness to Lookout.

That’s why I saw your post


You are obviously of low intelligence and not able to grasp the fact that you don’t have to be a sharp shooter to kill someone at a point blank range

Not surprised this is usual from the trolls that come on the forum

Colin would 100% know Sheila would not have to be a sharpshooter to carry out the murders

Colin would also 100% know that Sheila had been on shooting parties and knew about guns

Colin lied for what reason ?

He was on National tv promoting his book
Julie Mugford the main prosecution witness was guilty of numerous crimes, 13 separate cheque frauds, robbery, and drug dealing and also making a deal with a national newspaper before trial that if she could convince a jury her ex boyfriend was guilty of five murders she would receive £25,000

Offline lookout

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Re: Is Colin Caffell In Any Way Resposnible For Bamber?
« Reply #74 on: November 01, 2021, 11:42:AM »
I can't honestly say whether Colin was at the trial. I'd never given it a thought.
What I do know is that Colin had registered a complaint about Ainsley's alterations of an " important error " in his witness statement-----one of 100's of errors which he'd sent to the DPP ! No action had been taken to correct Colin's statement and nor did the defence see a handwritten version pre-trial.

SJones was another who was known for altering/ editing too !


All courtesy of Paul Terzeon, a member of JB's defence team.