Author Topic: Guardian 12th March  (Read 6795 times)

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Offline JackieD

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Re: Guardian 12th March
« Reply #105 on: October 01, 2021, 03:26:PM »
If we could trust our police, state and relevant authorative bodies to act, behave and function in an efficient, non corrupt, honest manner, then it might be possible to rely upon 'death' as being a suitable punishment for such crimes.

I agree there have been miscarriage of justice cases with a death penalty that have proved to be unsafe
Julie Mugford the main prosecution witness was guilty of numerous crimes, 13 separate cheque frauds, robbery, and drug dealing and also making a deal with a national newspaper before trial that if she could convince a jury her ex boyfriend was guilty of five murders she would receive £25,000

guest29835

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Re: Guardian 12th March
« Reply #106 on: October 01, 2021, 03:31:PM »
If we could trust our police, state and relevant authorative bodies to act, behave and function in an efficient, non corrupt, honest manner, then it might be possible to rely upon 'death' as being a suitable punishment for such crimes.

That is not an argument against the death penalty. 

We can never trust the police, state and authority.  The whole point of the jury system is that authority cannot be completely trusted.  That's how the modern jury system, invented in England, came about in the first place.  It's meant to be an independent check against authority, not a group of rather dull people ratifying the decisions of authority.  If the Law and authority are right, then the jury's verdict should be Guilty, but in all cases the jury is sovereign and reserves the right to return a verdict of Not Guilty, and is not required to explain or justify this decision.

I believe the answer to the specific problem of police investigative misconduct is further reform to ensure that there is effective oversight of major investigations and the collection of evidence.

Offline JackieD

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Re: Guardian 12th March
« Reply #107 on: October 01, 2021, 03:40:PM »
With Couzens it’s very worrying there are still serving police officers which were part of his what’s app group

This is the second major catastrophe
If you remember the Huntley case. He had been in trouble with the police and no proper checks were done before he started working at the school
Julie Mugford the main prosecution witness was guilty of numerous crimes, 13 separate cheque frauds, robbery, and drug dealing and also making a deal with a national newspaper before trial that if she could convince a jury her ex boyfriend was guilty of five murders she would receive £25,000

Offline Roch

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Re: Guardian 12th March
« Reply #108 on: October 01, 2021, 03:54:PM »
That is not an argument against the death penalty. 

We can never trust the police, state and authority.  The whole point of the jury system is that authority cannot be completely trusted.  That's how the modern jury system, invented in England, came about in the first place.  It's meant to be an independent check against authority, not a group of rather dull people ratifying the decisions of authority.  If the Law and authority are right, then the jury's verdict should be Guilty, but in all cases the jury is sovereign and reserves the right to return a verdict of Not Guilty, and is not required to explain or justify this decision.

I believe the answer to the specific problem of police investigative misconduct is further reform to ensure that there is effective oversight of major investigations and the collection of evidence.

Citizen Chevalier! Report immediately to Alien Liaison Officer David1819. You have been selected for specimen study.

BTW mate, juries can be mislead. 

Offline lookout

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Re: Guardian 12th March
« Reply #109 on: October 01, 2021, 04:12:PM »
If we could trust our police, state and relevant authorative bodies to act, behave and function in an efficient, non corrupt, honest manner, then it might be possible to rely upon 'death' as being a suitable punishment for such crimes.





Agreed, Roch.

Offline Roch

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Re: Guardian 12th March
« Reply #110 on: October 01, 2021, 04:37:PM »
Agreed, Roch.

Great minds think alike  :))

guest29835

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Re: Guardian 12th March
« Reply #111 on: October 01, 2021, 04:56:PM »
Citizen Chevalier! Report immediately to Alien Liaison Officer David1819. You have been selected for specimen study.

BTW mate, juries can be mislead.

They're not detectives and can't order further inquiries.  They are not judges, so can't call witnesses back for further questioning or voir dire major witnesses or experts or order the production of new or additional evidence.  They could ask the judge to do some of these things, but their formal role is limited to giving a verdict based on the evidence heard.  They can freely ask questions, and should be resilient enough to question things, but if evidence is fabricated or planted, it may be difficult to surmise this in the heat of a trial.  We can see there are issues with the evidence, but we have the luxury of considering the case at leisure, which the jury did not have. 

I think the Bamber trial jury in the end couldn't make up their minds and the majority just fell in with the summing-up - at least, that's what happened according to a couple of the jurors who spoke to, respectively, an Essex journalist and an author.  This of course illustrates the danger of abolishing the unanimity protection.  We can't know how the dynamics of the jury would have been different if unanimity had been required, but if two or three jurors - maybe more - were sceptical after hearing all the evidence, and if two of them were robust enough to maintain their scepticism to the end, that suggests the prosecution would have been in great difficulty convincing the jury under those alternate circumstances.

Offline Adam

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Re: Guardian 12th March
« Reply #112 on: October 01, 2021, 05:38:PM »
https://youtu.be/_LNqtwFjFBM

The jury took just one day to return a verdict. After a 14 day trial.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2021, 05:41:PM by Adam »
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline Adam

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Re: Guardian 12th March
« Reply #113 on: October 01, 2021, 05:43:PM »
They're not detectives and can't order further inquiries.  They are not judges, so can't call witnesses back for further questioning or voir dire major witnesses or experts or order the production of new or additional evidence.  They could ask the judge to do some of these things, but their formal role is limited to giving a verdict based on the evidence heard.  They can freely ask questions, and should be resilient enough to question things, but if evidence is fabricated or planted, it may be difficult to surmise this in the heat of a trial.  We can see there are issues with the evidence, but we have the luxury of considering the case at leisure, which the jury did not have. 

I think the Bamber trial jury in the end couldn't make up their minds and the majority just fell in with the summing-up - at least, that's what happened according to a couple of the jurors who spoke to, respectively, an Essex journalist and an author. This of course illustrates the danger of abolishing the unanimity protection.  We can't know how the dynamics of the jury would have been different if unanimity had been required, but if two or three jurors - maybe more - were sceptical after hearing all the evidence, and if two of them were robust enough to maintain their scepticism to the end, that suggests the prosecution would have been in great difficulty convincing the jury under those alternate circumstances.

Thank you for your source.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

guest29835

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Re: Guardian 12th March
« Reply #114 on: October 01, 2021, 05:50:PM »
Thank you for your source.

Thanks Adam.  It's good that you're putting me and Rob through our paces.  Appreciate that moral support sometimes involves giving people the 'hard word'.  If it wasn't for you, I'd probably still be going out on Tollesbury Road now in my windsurfing clobber.

Offline killingeve

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Re: Guardian 12th March
« Reply #115 on: October 23, 2021, 10:31:AM »
I have to say this is what I find very frustrating and annoying. First you state.."RWB had refused a DNA test"...as if that's that...then when asked about the date you say.."I'm not sure.."...you then go on to say "apparently RWB did have a DNA test.."

I mean I'm not picking on you but how the hell can any independant observer of this site take anybody seriously, when statements are bandied as if there factual, then backtracked a couple of posts later.

So in reality I can't trust or accept anything that posters say. In that sense I suspect that if you support Bamber you'll might put up any old tosh as long as it sounds believable. Ditto re his guilt.

I see I am not the only one calling out Lookout.