Author Topic: Louis Theroux  (Read 40267 times)

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Offline JackieD

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Re: Louis Theroux
« Reply #165 on: October 01, 2021, 11:31:AM »
What's interesting about that for me is that he has got hold of a full transcript of the judge's summing-up.  Between that interview and the Carol Ann Lee book, it is becoming clear we have not been told the truth about the availability of transcripts from the trial.  There is a lot more material in existence.

I think a pretty sensational documentary could be made from the pro-innocence point-of-view, if done professionally.

Of course there has to be
Julie Mugford the main prosecution witness was guilty of numerous crimes, 13 separate cheque frauds, robbery, and drug dealing and also making a deal with a national newspaper before trial that if she could convince a jury her ex boyfriend was guilty of five murders she would receive £25,000

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Re: Louis Theroux
« Reply #166 on: October 01, 2021, 11:44:AM »
He is a Barrister, I guess he would know how to get a copy?

All the bits we have of the summing up I have put together here - in no particular order.

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,9404.msg438059.html#msg438059

I don't believe simply being a barrister would entitle him to any special privileges over documents.  I would assume in fact it's the documentary-makers who have obtained a copy as a result of their research.

Offline Roch

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Re: Louis Theroux
« Reply #167 on: October 01, 2021, 12:30:PM »
The most important and impartial part of the documentary

If this is the case, then the documentary can't be very balanced at all! And if that's the case, its timing, like the drama, should be considered as anti-JB propaganda.

The defence cannot get any similar project off the ground because the convictions are still in place. The media would only be interested if the convictions were overturned. The propaganda is helping to ensure that a critical mass of guilters is reached among the viewing population. Such a position equates to those who believe in an MOJ becoming ever more marginalised and ridiculed.  That in itself takes pressure off of the authorities.

Should the situation be reversed; and media companies were only interested in commissioning and airing an MOJ approach to the case, the balance of opinion among the viewing populace would shift in favour of JB. That in turn would place more pressure on the authorities.

At the moment, CAL and the state have all the resources they need, to ensure the balance is pro-guilt. Whereas the defence have an inferior level of resources to be able to compete.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2021, 12:31:PM by Roch »

Offline David1819

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Re: Louis Theroux
« Reply #168 on: October 01, 2021, 12:39:PM »
If this is the case, then the documentary can't be very balanced at all! And if that's the case, its timing, like the drama, should be considered as anti-JB propaganda.

The defence cannot get any similar project off the ground because the convictions are still in place. The media would only be interested if the convictions were overturned. The propaganda is helping to ensure that a critical mass of guilters is reached among the viewing population. Such a position equates to those who believe in an MOJ becoming ever more marginalised and ridiculed.  That in itself takes pressure off of the authorities.

Should the situation be reversed; and media companies were only interested in commissioning and airing an MOJ approach to the case, the balance of opinion among the viewing populace would shift in favour of JB. That in turn would place more pressure on the authorities.

At the moment, CAL and the state have all the resources they need, to ensure the balance is pro-guilt. Whereas the defence have an inferior level of resources to be able to compete.

And Aliens are involved also!

Offline Roch

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Re: Louis Theroux
« Reply #169 on: October 01, 2021, 12:52:PM »
And Aliens are involved also!

It's common sense, not brain surgery. McKay tried to do the same. He could have pulled it off but there was interference. Those on the side of the interferers have learned a trick or to from McKay and have used it much to their advantage. The only difference being that McKay was trying to expose the truth, whereas CAL is selling an extremely narrow narrative parceled up as 'case evidence'.

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Re: Louis Theroux
« Reply #170 on: October 01, 2021, 12:53:PM »
And Aliens are involved also!

Keep quiet about that, David.  I'm enjoying my inter-galactic extra-curricula activities in the flying saucers.  I know you're jealous of me and Nugnug, but we can't help it if aliens find us sexy.

Offline David1819

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Re: Louis Theroux
« Reply #171 on: October 01, 2021, 12:58:PM »
Keep quiet about that, David.  I'm enjoying my inter-galactic extra-curricula activities in the flying saucers.  I know you're jealous of me and Nugnug, but we can't help it if aliens find us sexy.

I thought the aliens were only interested in our sheep?  :))

Offline killingeve

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Re: Louis Theroux
« Reply #172 on: October 01, 2021, 08:48:PM »
He is a Barrister, I guess he would know how to get a copy?

All the bits we have of the summing up I have put together here - in no particular order.

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,9404.msg438059.html#msg438059

Was Patrick O'Connor working off the complete summing up? 

Bamber's first appeal hearing was based on the Judge's summing up. 

Offline David1819

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Re: Louis Theroux
« Reply #173 on: October 01, 2021, 09:06:PM »
Was Patrick O'Connor working off the complete summing up? 


I guess so.

Online ngb1066

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Re: Louis Theroux
« Reply #174 on: October 01, 2021, 09:09:PM »
Was Patrick O'Connor working off the complete summing up? 

Bamber's first appeal hearing was based on the Judge's summing up.

He (or more likely the documentary researchers) had managed to obtain a complete transcript of the judge's summing up.

 

Offline killingeve

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Re: Louis Theroux
« Reply #175 on: October 01, 2021, 09:18:PM »
He (or more likely the documentary researchers) had managed to obtain a complete transcript of the judge's summing up.

 

I assume this was available for the 1989 appeal and the defence argued the points raised by Patrick O'Connor?

Online ngb1066

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Re: Louis Theroux
« Reply #176 on: October 01, 2021, 09:29:PM »
I assume this was available for the 1989 appeal and the defence argued the points raised by Patrick O'Connor?

In the first appeal the main ground of appeal was the bias in the judge's summing up, so to that extent it was in line with the points made by Patrick O'Connor.  It is very difficult to win an appeal on those grounds alone.

 

Offline Roch

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Re: Louis Theroux
« Reply #177 on: October 01, 2021, 09:47:PM »
I guess so.

David, this isn't Billings, Montana. You can swap guess for suppose.

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Re: Louis Theroux
« Reply #178 on: October 02, 2021, 12:41:AM »
I gave in and watched the series on the NowTV player after taking advantage of their free trial offer.

It's not a documentary series in the true sense.  It's more like a compilation of interviews and montages with voiceovers.  Some of the photographs and interviews are interesting because I haven't seen them before, but there's little substance to it in that it's fairly superficial and doesn't go into much detail, and I was pretty bored by the end of it.  I think it was all a bit confused and disjointed.  The four episodes overall lack a clear narrative or focus and there was no analytical element.

For me, the gold standard for this genre are the World in Action documentaries on the Birmingham Six: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dyo50NHuRq4

Watch that example and be amazed, and then consider: Would such a documentary be made today?  They know what they want to say.  They say it.  They don't get bogged down in issues that aren't strictly relevant, such as the feelings of relatives, etc., or the opinions of frivolous book authors, or the impressions of peripheral figures (James Richards? Barbara Wilson?  Are they crucial witnesses?), or the life and times of TV reporters, or the fatuous tautologies of police officers ("I knew he was guilty.  I don't know what his supporters are playing at", etc., etc., etc.).

Points that stood out (in no particular order):

(i). David Boutflour is a very emotional man.  Nobody else in any documentary on this case I have seen was crying, just him.  I have not seen Colin Caffell cry like that.

(ii). Mr Boutflour claims that Nevill and June were like second parents to him and he used to stay at The White House often during his teens.

(iii). Mr Boutflour again tells us that the silencer was 'sticky' and he saw the grey hair on it.  It must be that Jeremy didn't notice this stickiness or the grey hair when he put that same silencer away in the gun cupboard.

(iv). Colin Caffell does not appear.  Nor does Ann Eaton.

(v). Anthony Arlidge, prosecution counsel at the trial, criticises the judge's summing-up, as does a barrister unconnected with the case who was asked to give his 'objective' view on the transcript.

(vi). In the third episode, a former News of the World reporter clearly admits that Julie Mugford was promised payment before the end of the trial.

(vii). An admission from Julie Mugford that I had forgotten came up again, which is that she claimed to Essex Police that she did supply sedatives or sleeping pills to Jeremy for the purpose of an abortive murder plot.

(viii). Unflattering speculation is advanced about Julie's motives for coming forward.

(ix). James Richards, responsible for perhaps the most ridiculously irrelevant evidence ever given in an English murder trial, is described as a 'friend' of Julie Mugford and defends her zealously. 

(x). Likewise Barbara Wilson, whose evidence at trial seemed pointless to me, makes another appearance.  She now claims that Nevill knew Jeremy had robbed the caravan site office.  Yet Nevill did not change his will.  Why?  I thought there was a murder plot and Nevill, June, Julie, Colin, Robert, David, Peter, Ann, Karen, Patricia, and every Phillip, Jack and Maureen between there and Chelmsford knew of it? 

(xi). No mention is made of DCI Taff Jones or DS Stan Jones.

(xii). Dr Vanezis does not appear.

(xiii). Mike Ainsley is not asked why he retained evidence in his own home, if he did so.  Isn't it a strange thing for a police officer to take evidence home with him, then destroy that evidence?

(xiv). For the first time, Malcolm Fletcher and Michael West appear.  Their interviews are quite interesting, to be fair.

(xv). Geoffrey Rivlin does not appear, nor does Paul Terzeon.

(xvi). Mark Williams-Thomas is given a soap box and could have gone into some detail about the evidence he came up with, but in keeping with the documentary's lack of focus, he is fairly superficial but does come across well.

(xvii). Chris Bews now says he saw movement at the window, then realised it was moon light.  I think that must be the third or fourth version of that part of the incident that he has given.  At this rate, he'll be telling us in the next documentary that it was Saxby who saw something, as he's the only person present who it hasn't yet been blamed on.

(xviii). For the first time, we hear parts of Jeremy's prison interview with the journalist in 2010.

The whole thing came across to me as a damage limitation exercise, perhaps intended to blunt the impact of new revelations to come (which may be things that are not revelations to us on this Forum, but would be to the public). 

It may also be that the lack of narrative rigour is an effort at confusing ordinary viewers of average intelligence, who will come away without a clear sense of what are the issues in the case and will be inclined to just forget about it all.

Offline Adam

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Re: Louis Theroux
« Reply #179 on: October 02, 2021, 04:52:AM »
I gave in and watched the series on the NowTV player after taking advantage of their free trial offer.

It's not a documentary series in the true sense.  It's more like a compilation of interviews and montages with voiceovers.  Some of the photographs and interviews are interesting because I haven't seen them before, but there's little substance to it in that it's fairly superficial and doesn't go into much detail, and I was pretty bored by the end of it.  I think it was all a bit confused and disjointed.  The four episodes overall lack a clear narrative or focus and there was no analytical element.

For me, the gold standard for this genre are the World in Action documentaries on the Birmingham Six: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dyo50NHuRq4

Watch that example and be amazed, and then consider: Would such a documentary be made today?  They know what they want to say.  They say it.  They don't get bogged down in issues that aren't strictly relevant, such as the feelings of relatives, etc., or the opinions of frivolous book authors, or the impressions of peripheral figures (James Richards? Barbara Wilson?  Are they crucial witnesses?), or the life and times of TV reporters, or the fatuous tautologies of police officers ("I knew he was guilty.  I don't know what his supporters are playing at", etc., etc., etc.).

Points that stood out (in no particular order):

(i). David Boutflour is a very emotional man.  Nobody else in any documentary on this case I have seen was crying, just him.  I have not seen Colin Caffell cry like that.

(ii). Mr Boutflour claims that Nevill and June were like second parents to him and he used to stay at The White House often during his teens.

(iii). Mr Boutflour again tells us that the silencer was 'sticky' and he saw the grey hair on it.  It must be that Jeremy didn't notice this stickiness or the grey hair when he put that same silencer away in the gun cupboard.

(iv). Colin Caffell does not appear.  Nor does Ann Eaton.

(v). Anthony Arlidge, prosecution counsel at the trial, criticises the judge's summing-up, as does a barrister unconnected with the case who was asked to give his 'objective' view on the transcript.

(vi). In the third episode, a former News of the World reporter clearly admits that Julie Mugford was promised payment before the end of the trial.

(vii). An admission from Julie Mugford that I had forgotten came up again, which is that she claimed to Essex Police that she did supply sedatives or sleeping pills to Jeremy for the purpose of an abortive murder plot.

(viii). Unflattering speculation is advanced about Julie's motives for coming forward.

(ix). James Richards, responsible for perhaps the most ridiculously irrelevant evidence ever given in an English murder trial, is described as a 'friend' of Julie Mugford and defends her zealously. 

(x). Likewise Barbara Wilson, whose evidence at trial seemed pointless to me, makes another appearance.  She now claims that Nevill knew Jeremy had robbed the caravan site office.  Yet Nevill did not change his will.  Why?  I thought there was a murder plot and Nevill, June, Julie, Colin, Robert, David, Peter, Ann, Karen, Patricia, and every Phillip, Jack and Maureen between there and Chelmsford knew of it? 

(xi). No mention is made of DCI Taff Jones or DS Stan Jones.

(xii). Dr Vanezis does not appear.

(xiii). Mike Ainsley is not asked why he retained evidence in his own home, if he did so.  Isn't it a strange thing for a police officer to take evidence home with him, then destroy that evidence?

(xiv). For the first time, Malcolm Fletcher and Michael West appear.  Their interviews are quite interesting, to be fair.

(xv). Geoffrey Rivlin does not appear, nor does Paul Terzeon.

(xvi). Mark Williams-Thomas is given a soap box and could have gone into some detail about the evidence he came up with, but in keeping with the documentary's lack of focus, he is fairly superficial but does come across well.

(xvii). Chris Bews now says he saw movement at the window, then realised it was moon light.  I think that must be the third or fourth version of that part of the incident that he has given.  At this rate, he'll be telling us in the next documentary that it was Saxby who saw something, as he's the only person present who it hasn't yet been blamed on.

(xviii). For the first time, we hear parts of Jeremy's prison interview with the journalist in 2010.

The whole thing came across to me as a damage limitation exercise, perhaps intended to blunt the impact of new revelations to come (which may be things that are not revelations to us on this Forum, but would be to the public). 

It may also be that the lack of narrative rigour is an effort at confusing ordinary viewers of average intelligence, who will come away without a clear sense of what are the issues in the case and will be inclined to just forget about it all.

Thought CC would have appeared. Maybe he thought the documentary sounded too trashy.

Didn't know DB was so close to Nevill & June.

Only seen AE in one documentary. Where she talks about how Sheila could not have overpowered Nevill. Sadly not on Youtube.

What were the criticisms of the judges summing up?

It's well known the NOTW approached Julie & a verbal agreement made. And no surprise.

The sleeping pills are in Julie's WS. Bamber confirms in his police interviews he was aware of them.

It's been said for years that Nevill knew it was Bamber who robbed the caravan site. Maybe Nevill was planning to amend his will. June certainly was.

The 'trick of the light' was so trivial it was not mentioned in the police interviews or at trial. Not surprised Bews can't remember who didn't see what 36 years on.

Did Bamber say anything new?

Did the documentary not mention the caravan break in?
« Last Edit: October 02, 2021, 05:21:AM by Adam »
'Only I know what really happened that night'.