Author Topic: Levi Bellfield statement should be game changer for Michael Stone  (Read 10347 times)

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Offline gringo

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Re: Levi Bellfield statement should be game changer for Michael Stone
« Reply #30 on: September 11, 2021, 11:47:PM »
Is that not a testiment to institutionalised force-wide arrogance?
    In a word, Yes

Offline David1819

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Re: Levi Bellfield statement should be game changer for Michael Stone
« Reply #31 on: September 12, 2021, 12:00:AM »
    The ever moving goalposts shift again. Instead of taking a series of untenable positions and making irrelevant points

No need to project yourself onto me.

You said the police can "obviously" investigate solved cases. If its "obvious" as you claim, then it must be a common occurrence. Something the general public would be privy to. Hence I asked you for an example. Since you can't provide an example it clearly isn't obvious at all and you have simply made it up.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2021, 12:01:AM by David1819 »

Offline David1819

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Re: Levi Bellfield statement should be game changer for Michael Stone
« Reply #32 on: September 12, 2021, 12:15:AM »
Is that not a testiment to institutionalised force-wide arrogance?

If there is evidence that Bellfield committed these murders it has to go to the CCRC and then the COA then if Stones conviction is overturned, only then will the police start looking at Bellfield.

That's how the process works. If the police were involved in resolving miscarriages of justice nobody would ever have a conviction overturned.

Offline gringo

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Re: Levi Bellfield statement should be game changer for Michael Stone
« Reply #33 on: September 12, 2021, 12:18:AM »
I'd like to know more about the confession, and in particular "a number of facts that are not in the public domain." https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-42144445
    There seems to be few details about these, Steve.
     Many links but mostly repeating the same sparse details. Came across this whilst digging. Covers a lot of relevant points and worth a read.
      https://darkideas.net/true-crime-articles/wrongful-conviction/the-chillenden-murders-michael-stone-or-levi-bellfield/
     The whole situation is now absurd. The feeling that the wrong man was convicted is now so widespread that the Justice System has to deal with this satisfactorily. The discrepancies in this case are too widely known to be brushed under the carpet anymore and to retain public confidence and credibility this must be brought to a satisfactory close.

Offline gringo

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Re: Levi Bellfield statement should be game changer for Michael Stone
« Reply #34 on: September 12, 2021, 12:25:AM »
No need to project yourself onto me.

You said the police can "obviously" investigate solved cases. If its "obvious" as you claim, then it must be a common occurrence. Something the general public would be privy to. Hence I asked you for an example. Since you can't provide an example it clearly isn't obvious at all and you have simply made it up.
   Google it. The police can reopen solved cases. Why must it be a common occurrence? By definition it will be rare. Are you this dense that you are doubling and tripling down on your stupidity?
      Stone's solicitors and Kent Police are both unaware of your facts. They believe that the case can be re-investigated. Only you with your facts pulled out of your arse argue otherwise.

Offline gringo

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Re: Levi Bellfield statement should be game changer for Michael Stone
« Reply #35 on: September 12, 2021, 12:38:AM »
No need to project yourself onto me.

You said the police can "obviously" investigate solved cases. If its "obvious" as you claim, then it must be a common occurrence. Something the general public would be privy to. Hence I asked you for an example. Since you can't provide an example it clearly isn't obvious at all and you have simply made it up.
   Do you think that Stone's solicitors also "made it up"? Kent Police did they "make it up"?
     We all know who has been making it up, David.

Offline gringo

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Re: Levi Bellfield statement should be game changer for Michael Stone
« Reply #36 on: September 12, 2021, 04:09:AM »
I'd like to know more about the confession, and in particular "a number of facts that are not in the public domain." https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-42144445
   This gives a name at least and adds a little bit more. I wasn't previously aware of the alleged murder of his former girlfriend, Patsy Morris, referred to here in 1980

 Then in 2017 Frankland Prison inmate rapist Richard Baker wrote to Stone’s lawyers alleging Bellfield had confessed and even drawn maps of the scene showing the positions of Lin and her daughters.

Baker said he had told him it was “deeply hilarious that numpty Stone is serving life for what I did”. All of this was denied.

The killer has been suspected of crimes involving women dating as far back as 1980 – including his ex-girlfriend 14-year-old Patsy Morris in 1980, found strangled on heathland.

But when it came to Chillenden, he also had an alibi accepted by police.


   Full article here;
     https://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/surrey-news/killer-levi-bellfield-ignites-fresh-17514256

guest7363

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Re: Levi Bellfield statement should be game changer for Michael Stone
« Reply #37 on: September 12, 2021, 08:33:AM »
If there is evidence that Bellfield committed these murders it has to go to the CCRC and then the COA then if Stones conviction is overturned, only then will the police start looking at Bellfield.

That's how the process works. If the police were involved in resolving miscarriages of justice nobody would ever have a conviction overturned.
So why do you suggest that in Bamber’s case if there was evidence the CCRC could be bypassed and would go straight to the CPS? 

Offline gringo

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Re: Levi Bellfield statement should be game changer for Michael Stone
« Reply #38 on: September 12, 2021, 11:04:AM »
So why do you suggest that in Bamber’s case if there was evidence the CCRC could be bypassed and would go straight to the CPS?
    He is being contrary for the sake of it. When he has nothing to add, he adds it anyway in a poor attempt at appearing informed even though his facts are pulled out of his arse.

Offline David1819

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Re: Levi Bellfield statement should be game changer for Michael Stone
« Reply #39 on: September 12, 2021, 11:10:AM »
So why do you suggest that in Bamber’s case if there was evidence the CCRC could be bypassed and would go straight to the CPS?

That was in regards to the false claim that there is documented evidence that Sheila rang 999 while Jeremy was outside with the police. Evidence of that nature (If it exists) can't really be challenged if you see what I mean.


guest7363

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Re: Levi Bellfield statement should be game changer for Michael Stone
« Reply #40 on: September 12, 2021, 01:42:PM »
That was in regards to the false claim that there is documented evidence that Sheila rang 999 while Jeremy was outside with the police. Evidence of that nature (If it exists) can't really be challenged if you see what I mean.
Right gotcha, sure proof evidence?

guest29835

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Re: Levi Bellfield statement should be game changer for Michael Stone
« Reply #41 on: September 12, 2021, 01:44:PM »
Many people who discuss this case may be helping to propagate a classic double-error.  I have no idea if Stone did this, but let's just assume he didn't and he's innocent.  It does not follow that Bellfield is guilty.  By assuming this by default, even on a speculative basis, you may be falling into the same terrible trap as the police.  It's a bugbear for me whenever I am among true crime aficionados and miscarriage of justice campaigners who want to adopt this cut-throat approach.  Clearly Bellfield is not a nice man, but he may be entirely innocent of this terrible crime, and if Stone is also innocent, it could be that the real killer has never been caught - and may never be caught.

It's said that Bellfield admits he was in the area, but that does not make him guilty.  For one thing, why would he be so honest if he were guilty?  It may also be that he wasn't in the area at all and he is just attention-seeking.

When I first heard about this case years ago, I immediately wondered why the father was not a suspect.  The explanation for this seems to be that Josie Russell got a good look at the attacker and gave a description that is assumed to be a third party, thus the father is exculpated.  I recall reading somewhere (unfortunately, I can't now recall the source) that Josie or someone else remarked that the attacker resembled her father, but just to add important context: that wasn't said to cast any suspicion on the father, rather it was to aid the physical description by way of a comparison with somebody she knew.  Her description does sound like Bellfield in the sense of 'chubby face' and 'spiky hair', and that does not sound like Stone.

Interestingly, Josie said that the attacker wasn't masked, yet he did not initially intend to kill them, which suggests he didn't plan it.  So what was he doing?  Robbing them perhaps?  But do illicit drug-takers and other wrong-doers generally seek to rob middle-aged women with young children in the middle of nowhere, or anywhere?

Josie was 9 years old at the time, and had suffered brain injury, yet at some point on her road to recovery she attended (by video link) an identification parade at which she failed to identify Michael Stone.

The e-fit of the killer is not from Josie, but from another witness who saw some random person driving away from the same location.  That witness, too, failed to identify Michael Stone at a police-arranged identification parade.  Thus, the e-fit identification is not reliable at all.  It is based on putting 2 and 2 together by a woman who could not identify Stone when face-to-face with him (albeit she claimed he looked familiar).  This suggests to me that Josie's description is the one to be relied on - allowing for the inevitable imperfections.

Another thing about the e-fit is that everybody lazily says that it doesn't look like Stone but does look like Bellfield.  I disagree.  It does look like Bellfield, but it also resembles Stone - if you look closely at it and take the mental blinkers off.  Now consider the fact that Stone and Bellfield are entirely dissimilar in physical appearance, both then and now.  This only reinforces the unreliability of the e-fit - but, perhaps, only viz. Stone and Bellfield.  Perhaps, going against what I say above, the e-fit is true and the conviction and suspicion are wrong?

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Levi Bellfield statement should be game changer for Michael Stone
« Reply #42 on: September 12, 2021, 03:50:PM »
   This gives a name at least and adds a little bit more. I wasn't previously aware of the alleged murder of his former girlfriend, Patsy Morris, referred to here in 1980

 Then in 2017 Frankland Prison inmate rapist Richard Baker wrote to Stone’s lawyers alleging Bellfield had confessed and even drawn maps of the scene showing the positions of Lin and her daughters.

Baker said he had told him it was “deeply hilarious that numpty Stone is serving life for what I did”. All of this was denied.

The killer has been suspected of crimes involving women dating as far back as 1980 – including his ex-girlfriend 14-year-old Patsy Morris in 1980, found strangled on heathland.

But when it came to Chillenden, he also had an alibi accepted by police.


   Full article here;
     https://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/surrey-news/killer-levi-bellfield-ignites-fresh-17514256
I do think the Damien Daley testimony is unreliable: http://www.michaelstone.co.uk/stone/confession.html

Offline David1819

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Re: Levi Bellfield statement should be game changer for Michael Stone
« Reply #43 on: September 12, 2021, 04:33:PM »
Right gotcha, sure proof evidence?

Correct

Offline David1819

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Re: Levi Bellfield statement should be game changer for Michael Stone
« Reply #44 on: September 12, 2021, 04:40:PM »
Many people who discuss this case may be helping to propagate a classic double-error.  I have no idea if Stone did this, but let's just assume he didn't and he's innocent.  It does not follow that Bellfield is guilty.  By assuming this by default, even on a speculative basis, you may be falling into the same terrible trap as the police.  It's a bugbear for me whenever I am among true crime aficionados and miscarriage of justice campaigners who want to adopt this cut-throat approach.  Clearly Bellfield is not a nice man, but he may be entirely innocent of this terrible crime, and if Stone is also innocent, it could be that the real killer has never been caught - and may never be caught.

It's said that Bellfield admits he was in the area, but that does not make him guilty.  For one thing, why would he be so honest if he were guilty?  It may also be that he wasn't in the area at all and he is just attention-seeking.

When I first heard about this case years ago, I immediately wondered why the father was not a suspect.  The explanation for this seems to be that Josie Russell got a good look at the attacker and gave a description that is assumed to be a third party, thus the father is exculpated.  I recall reading somewhere (unfortunately, I can't now recall the source) that Josie or someone else remarked that the attacker resembled her father, but just to add important context: that wasn't said to cast any suspicion on the father, rather it was to aid the physical description by way of a comparison with somebody she knew.  Her description does sound like Bellfield in the sense of 'chubby face' and 'spiky hair', and that does not sound like Stone.

Interestingly, Josie said that the attacker wasn't masked, yet he did not initially intend to kill them, which suggests he didn't plan it.  So what was he doing?  Robbing them perhaps?  But do illicit drug-takers and other wrong-doers generally seek to rob middle-aged women with young children in the middle of nowhere, or anywhere?

Josie was 9 years old at the time, and had suffered brain injury, yet at some point on her road to recovery she attended (by video link) an identification parade at which she failed to identify Michael Stone.

The e-fit of the killer is not from Josie, but from another witness who saw some random person driving away from the same location.  That witness, too, failed to identify Michael Stone at a police-arranged identification parade.  Thus, the e-fit identification is not reliable at all.  It is based on putting 2 and 2 together by a woman who could not identify Stone when face-to-face with him (albeit she claimed he looked familiar).  This suggests to me that Josie's description is the one to be relied on - allowing for the inevitable imperfections.

Another thing about the e-fit is that everybody lazily says that it doesn't look like Stone but does look like Bellfield.  I disagree.  It does look like Bellfield, but it also resembles Stone - if you look closely at it and take the mental blinkers off.  Now consider the fact that Stone and Bellfield are entirely dissimilar in physical appearance, both then and now.  This only reinforces the unreliability of the e-fit - but, perhaps, only viz. Stone and Bellfield.  Perhaps, going against what I say above, the e-fit is true and the conviction and suspicion are wrong?

Was the person in the e-fit the same person in the beige car?