Author Topic: THE SILENCER SAGA  (Read 67971 times)

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Offline Bubo bubo

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Re: THE SILENCER SAGA
« Reply #450 on: November 23, 2021, 10:31:PM »

Re: Split thread
« Reply #56 on: Today at 07:40 PM »
If anyone wants a good read it's called Justice for All, The McKenzie Organisation. It's on the forum headed Fraudulent ???. R v Bamber---Further Blood Notes. Interesting.

https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4779.0;attach=34357;image
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4779.0;attach=34358;image
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4779.0;attach=34360;image
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4779.0;attach=34362;image
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4779.0;attach=34364;image

Thanks for drawing our attention to this report Lookout. I know what I think about this but would welcome other members views as to what is being claimed.

Offline lookout

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Re: THE SILENCER SAGA
« Reply #451 on: November 24, 2021, 08:38:AM »
Many thanks for that Bubo. I'm going through it again as in parts it's quite disturbing.

Offline Bubo bubo

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Re: THE SILENCER SAGA
« Reply #452 on: November 24, 2021, 01:15:PM »
Re: Split thread
« Reply #56 on: Today at 07:40 PM »
If anyone wants a good read it's called Justice for All, The McKenzie Organisation. It's on the forum headed Fraudulent ???. R v Bamber---Further Blood Notes. Interesting.

https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4779.0;attach=34357;image
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4779.0;attach=34358;image
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4779.0;attach=34360;image
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4779.0;attach=34362;image
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4779.0;attach=34364;image

Thanks for drawing our attention to this report Lookout. I know what I think about this but would welcome other members views as to what is being claimed.

Am I to take it that members do not find this intriguing, or are you still digesting the contents.

Offline lookout

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Re: THE SILENCER SAGA
« Reply #453 on: November 24, 2021, 01:18:PM »
Am I to take it that members do not find this intriguing, or are you still digesting the contents.






I doubt you'll get many, if any guilty takers reading this Bubo, it won't be their cup of tea  :o

Offline killingeve

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Re: THE SILENCER SAGA
« Reply #454 on: November 24, 2021, 01:24:PM »
Am I to take it that members do not find this intriguing, or are you still digesting the contents.

The latter!

Offline Jane

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Re: THE SILENCER SAGA
« Reply #455 on: November 24, 2021, 01:27:PM »
Am I to take it that members do not find this intriguing, or are you still digesting the contents.


Why would anyone find it any more 'intriguing' that all the other things which pertain to cast doubt on the findings of other experts. At the end of the day, isn't it all about personal opinion, from the members of this forum, to the jury.

Offline Roch

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Re: THE SILENCER SAGA
« Reply #456 on: November 24, 2021, 01:59:PM »

Why would anyone find it any more 'intriguing' that all the other things which pertain to cast doubt on the findings of other experts. At the end of the day, isn't it all about personal opinion, from the members of this forum, to the jury.

You can't honestly believe that the jury were party to the level info that members of this forum have in 2021?

I suspect they had access to 100th of the info that we have, at best.

Offline Jane

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Re: THE SILENCER SAGA
« Reply #457 on: November 24, 2021, 02:16:PM »
You can't honestly believe that the jury were party to the level info that members of this forum have in 2021?

I suspect they had access to 100th of the info that we have, at best.


What on earth makes you think it is any different from any other case that's 36 years in the past. JB's jury heard enough ton convict him. How much of what we know now is actually relevant? Jackie gobs on about Julie's past crimes, Lookout is concerned about Colin's treatment of Sheila, and someone else whose name escapes me questions whether Bews peed or pood himself whilst rushing from the scene. How much of this is pertinent to any outcome, then or now?

Offline Roch

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Re: THE SILENCER SAGA
« Reply #458 on: November 24, 2021, 02:20:PM »

What on earth makes you think it is any different from any other case that's 36 years in the past. JB's jury heard enough ton convict him. How much of what we know now is actually relevant? Jackie gobs on about Julie's past crimes, Lookout is concerned about Colin's treatment of Sheila, and someone else whose name escapes me questions whether Bews peed or pood himself whilst rushing from the scene. How much of this is pertinent to any outcome, then or now?

Because you're comparing members of the jury back in '86 to interested case followers in 2021. The jury were very obviously provided with a skewed version of events designed for conviction. If the case was retried now, it would be extremely difficult for any prosecution to pull off that type of stunt.

Offline Jane

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Re: THE SILENCER SAGA
« Reply #459 on: November 24, 2021, 02:37:PM »
Because you're comparing members of the jury back in '86 to interested case followers in 2021. The jury were very obviously provided with a skewed version of events designed for conviction. If the case was retried now, it would be extremely difficult for any prosecution to pull off that type of stunt.


You appear to be under the belief that every single piece of evidence found in the interim will be in JB's favour? Are you really under the misapprehension that your opinion -or that of any of those "interested case followers" now- will carry any weight? Certainly, a few experts can be pulled in to give their opinions, but as I recall, Lookout has NO time for the opinion/claims of experts. It rather begs the question WHICH expert should we believe.

Offline Bubo bubo

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Re: THE SILENCER SAGA
« Reply #460 on: November 25, 2021, 01:52:PM »
The latter!
You said you were in the process of digesting it. Your post 454 above.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2021, 01:54:PM by Bubo bubo »

Offline killingeve

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Re: THE SILENCER SAGA
« Reply #461 on: November 25, 2021, 02:12:PM »
You said you were in the process of digesting it. Your post 454 above.

Sorry I'm getting confused.  I thought that was in ref to the blue socks.  Ok the blue socks I'm still going through.  Might have to pm you if that's ok for any clarification and the McKenzie report I will try and look at asap.  I have looked at it previously but not in any sort of detail. 

Offline Bubo bubo

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Re: THE SILENCER SAGA
« Reply #462 on: November 25, 2021, 02:38:PM »
Sorry I'm getting confused.  I thought that was in ref to the blue socks.  Ok the blue socks I'm still going through.  Might have to pm you if that's ok for any clarification and the McKenzie report I will try and look at asap.  I have looked at it previously but not in any sort of detail.
I am sure members will not mind if you seek clarification in a post. I do not think it is fair on members to take the subject 'in camera'. Let them see what we have to say. If you wish to pm on something else not under discussion I will respond as I see fit.

Offline Bubo bubo

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Re: THE SILENCER SAGA
« Reply #463 on: December 14, 2021, 05:49:PM »
Can I suggest we discuss the case and move well away from the immature behaviour that has recently been on display? IMO no one comes out of these spats without reputational damage. I am not a moderator but feel the forum has descended into a pit of vipers. Let’s keep it civil.

BLOOD WORKS
[/size]

I think this subject might be right up CC’s street.

I thought it might be useful to set out more clearly how I believe the SM came to have blood inside. I will set them out individually. I have already outlined my thinking on DB1 being found by DB on the day. It should be noted that this exhibit was on DB’s list, which was later headed N/R as outlined in the COLP DB interview. The COLP suggested this meant Not Required or Not Relevant. DB offered no explanation. I argue he was collecting items that were used or produced in the cover up otherwise they would have been assigned to other SOCO officers. Taff wanted them kept apart and I have set out the reasons for this before. The most important may have been a suspicion he held that it could have been contaminated by the TFG which might bring JB into the frame.

1 Sheila contaminated it by her actions.

This could have been caused by a nose bleed when adding or removing the SM blood drips on the SM or muzzle. Another possibility is that she had blood on her hand which transferred to the muzzle during handling. It is also possible some blood dripped onto the SM around the exit. It is also possible that SC ‘prodded dead victims putting blood on the muzzle.

2 The TFG unwittingly contaminated it.

If there was blood on the muzzle and maybe a small incursion into the barrel and they then fitted the SM to make at least one shot (say the first or second shot as outlined in evidence). The action would possibly cause minute particles/mist size droplets to be distributed on the baffle plates and inside the main SM’s barrel/bore as far as that noted in the evidence.

3 A deliberate action at the lab


They, MDF in particular, could have created a flake or they obtained it from the receptacle containing PV20 and blood. As noted by Taylor on his GER. (QC I believe this is another document dated 12/09/85). Since there is a distinct possibility that he swapped PV20 to help create the one-gun crime, the creation of a flake or a flake from the PV20 receptacle would hold no fear.

4 A mistake by MDF who test fired the rifle.

Though he says he did a pull through and found no blood he might have come to the conclusion that he had caused it when small quantities were found by testing for bloods. He may have test fired before the blood tests. A mistake by a ‘novice’? Any earlier contamination would be blasted into the SM. If he visually inspected, it before both the test fire and/or the pull through. It is unlikely he could see the blood because JH and PJL asserted that the blood was not visible to the naked eye.
This suggestion comes into play if 2 above is excluded.

I would suggest that you read this to engage with my thinking.

https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action\attach;topic=4779.0;attach=34386;image

It seems to me that in the initial stages the mixed group theory was a possibility. JH did not do the tests himself someone, initials ALB did the tests. JH presented on behalf of the FSS at trial.

Try reading this.

https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4779.0;attach=34390;image

and this

https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4779.0;attach=34392;image

It could be argued that PJL’s first report was sent to the FSS. (It would have been seen as a matter of curtesy and professional behaviour) as well as presenting findings to the defence. JH said he needed two matching sources to confirm SC’s blood. Low and behold PJL’ s reasoning is undermined by the finding of a flake. This caused him to adjust his advice.

I have severe reservations about this as previously outlined. See this

SILENCER SAGA reply 2 Was there a flake of blood.

I have seen the McKenzie report which says the same. It is a pity I had not read this when first posting this suggestion.

The flake provided additional evidence to support an otherwise highly contestable finding from the SM bore and baffle plates. This is similar to JM’s testimony bolstering the SM evidence.

There many who say that these nuanced issues were used to mislead the Jury about the veracity of the blood evidence. The flake result was not easy to contest and could not be verified by a subsequent test because the all the flake was consumed in the original test. The testing method was called into question later.

The flake was not discovered by RC when he dismantled it and it is clear he was not seeking quick tests because he did not send it to the lab for another nine days. MF did not find the flake when according to some he dismantled it on 13/08/85, (some claim this is a lie and is connected to a forged HOLAB 5 form), was it him who found the flake? Did he dismantle it before passing it to JH and his team? In any case it would seem that neither RC or MF saw blood as would be the case, if it was invisible to the naked eye.

I do not know which if any of the four scenarios I favour but I feel it could be an amalgam of any 2 or 3 from the total. All these scenarios place blood on the muzzle and a strong likelihood that this fact resulted in stronger blood findings which were found on the female screw head. A condition that cannot occur in normal operating conditions. They (SM’s) are designed and built so as not to leak in this area.

I strongly agree with David1819’s take on the back spatter issue. For me the amount of material (blood) was very small indeed, some might say minute and there was no other material like bone or tissue which are characteristic elements of the phenomenon. The quantities were so small I cannot see how any deliberate attempt to introduce blood into the silencer could be achieved. It would be extremely difficult because the actor would have to apply such a small amount as that found in the testing. The flake is different in that making one would be more easily achieved.

While arguments such as this maybe wrong or right, there seems little possibility that this aspect will lead to a CCRC referral. The blood evidence is a dead end I am afraid.

I believe the CT should proceed with this case on the basis that it is a ‘frame up’ following a cover-up. A case could be constructed explaining the framing of JB as part of a whole new narrative, citing the lack of disclosure as a deliberate attempt to hide pertinent evidence and the mistakes that were made. The outcome of this behaviour eventually leading to the diabolical framing of an innocent man.

Offline David1819

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Re: THE SILENCER SAGA
« Reply #464 on: December 14, 2021, 07:15:PM »
The blood was first reported by the relatives. This is prior to the silencer being in the possession of the police and the lab staff. This narrows down the contamination to them and them ONLY.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2021, 07:18:PM by David1819 »