Author Topic: THE SILENCER SAGA  (Read 67978 times)

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Offline David1819

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Re: THE SILENCER SAGA
« Reply #420 on: November 11, 2021, 09:12:PM »

The fact experts in US claim such is meaningless when experts haven't challenged on behalf of prosecution.


The CCRC couldn't challenge the ballistic evidence, they had no counter-expert to challenge the findings of the US experts. What they did manage to do, was get a photographic counter-experts opinion on the reports of Peter Suthurst. Who believed Suthursts claims were inconclusive. This enabled to CCRC to deny a referral on labyrinthine technicality explained below.


"34. The evidence of Dr Fowler is set out in a more substantial report.  That report has been peer?reviewed by Dr Dragovich, who is Chief Medical Examiner in Oakland County, Michigan and Dr Marcella Fierro, who is the retired Chief Medical Examiner to the Commonwealth of Virginia.  Both have qualifications as forensic pathologists.  In his careful report, Dr Fowler makes clear that he has reviewed the evidence, which was available in relation to the wounds.  He concluded that the abrasions found were consistent with those of a rifle without a silencer, that there were no distinctive marks on the body which showed that a silencer had been attached, and the residue was consistent with contact wounds.  He refers to further work that needs doing, a matter to which I will return in a moment. 
35.   The Commission's judgment on this matter, which is set out carefully in its decision, is at paragraphs 360 to 362.  First of all, it is said that Dr Fowler did not deal with the fact that there was no residue found in the rifle, but there was the blood flake found in the silencer.  Although there is really no answer to the first half of that observation, as regards the second there is the point, on which I was prepared to make an assumption, namely that there may be a problem with the blood flake.  I have made that assumption because it seems to me that it is possible to do so by reference to the other reasons given by the Commission.  The first is the fact that the evidence of Dr Fowler does not grapple with the evidence of the fight in the kitchen and the paint evidence."



"38.Taking, therefore, the three grounds relied on together, and for this purpose making an assumption again in favour of Mr Bamber on the first point, but doing so on the basis that the second and third points, namely the report of Dr Caruso and the report of Dr Fowler, have been dealt with by the Commission in a way that is not open to challenge",


"11.   That question again has resolved into a narrow issue as to whether, when the fatal shot was fired in the kitchen at the father, Mr Bamber senior, the rifle used had on it a silencer, it being accepted that if there was a silencer on it at that time the prospects of the sister being the murderer were nil."



They could have denied an application for an appeal. The silencer itself consists of two pillars of evidence

A - The blood on the inside that matches Sheila
B - The Paint on the outside that matches the AGA surround.

Dismantling A is all well and good but then you still have B showing the silencer was still used on the night. The same applies vice versa. For argument sake, If it was proven that the marks on Sheila's neck/chin show silencer abrasions but Jeremy could prove the scratches were put there afterwards, it does not overcome the evidence against him.
 

Suthurst's evidence was undermined Andy Laws claiming it was "inconclusive"
The logic applied by the CCRC makes sense, But it is raising the bar extremely high.

If it can be proven 100% that the scratches were made after the murders then they would probably have to grant an appeal.

the COA have already made a judgment back in 2002 on the relevant issue

"The sound moderator had on any view been attached to the rifle during the fight with Nevill Bamber in the kitchen. But if Sheila Caffell had committed suicide it must have been removed before she shot herself

Had the appellant's sister murdered the other members of her family with the moderator attached to the gun and then discovered she could not reach the trigger to kill herself, the moderator would have been found next to her body. There would have been no reason for her to have removed it and returned it to the gun cupboard before going back upstairs to commit suicide in her parents' room."


This brings us back the 2012 Judgment

"That question again has resolved into a narrow issue as to whether, when the fatal shot was fired in the kitchen at the father, Mr Bamber senior, the rifle used had on it a silencer, it being accepted that if there was a silencer on it at that time the prospects of the sister being the murderer were nil."



This is why the appeal was denied and the court sided with the CCRC.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2021, 09:14:PM by David1819 »

Offline lookout

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Re: THE SILENCER SAGA
« Reply #421 on: November 11, 2021, 09:15:PM »
Skin tissue. The rifle was barely powerful enough to bring up blood spatter.






I wasn't talking about blood spatter  ::) Where you have injuries such as bullet wounds---some made at close quarters you have slivers of flesh on the end of the rifle.

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: THE SILENCER SAGA
« Reply #422 on: November 11, 2021, 09:45:PM »
This brings us back the 2012 Judgment

"That question again has resolved into a narrow issue as to whether, when the fatal shot was fired in the kitchen at the father, Mr Bamber senior, the rifle used had on it a silencer, it being accepted that if there was a silencer on it at that time the prospects of the sister being the murderer were nil."

Why is this so?

Offline killingeve

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Re: THE SILENCER SAGA
« Reply #423 on: November 11, 2021, 09:58:PM »
The CCRC couldn't challenge the ballistic evidence, they had no counter-expert to challenge the findings of the US experts. What they did manage to do, was get a photographic counter-experts opinion on the reports of Peter Suthurst. Who believed Suthursts claims were inconclusive. This enabled to CCRC to deny a referral on labyrinthine technicality explained below.


"34. The evidence of Dr Fowler is set out in a more substantial report.  That report has been peer?reviewed by Dr Dragovich, who is Chief Medical Examiner in Oakland County, Michigan and Dr Marcella Fierro, who is the retired Chief Medical Examiner to the Commonwealth of Virginia.  Both have qualifications as forensic pathologists.  In his careful report, Dr Fowler makes clear that he has reviewed the evidence, which was available in relation to the wounds.  He concluded that the abrasions found were consistent with those of a rifle without a silencer, that there were no distinctive marks on the body which showed that a silencer had been attached, and the residue was consistent with contact wounds.  He refers to further work that needs doing, a matter to which I will return in a moment. 
35.   The Commission's judgment on this matter, which is set out carefully in its decision, is at paragraphs 360 to 362.  First of all, it is said that Dr Fowler did not deal with the fact that there was no residue found in the rifle, but there was the blood flake found in the silencer.  Although there is really no answer to the first half of that observation, as regards the second there is the point, on which I was prepared to make an assumption, namely that there may be a problem with the blood flake.  I have made that assumption because it seems to me that it is possible to do so by reference to the other reasons given by the Commission.  The first is the fact that the evidence of Dr Fowler does not grapple with the evidence of the fight in the kitchen and the paint evidence."



"38.Taking, therefore, the three grounds relied on together, and for this purpose making an assumption again in favour of Mr Bamber on the first point, but doing so on the basis that the second and third points, namely the report of Dr Caruso and the report of Dr Fowler, have been dealt with by the Commission in a way that is not open to challenge",


"11.   That question again has resolved into a narrow issue as to whether, when the fatal shot was fired in the kitchen at the father, Mr Bamber senior, the rifle used had on it a silencer, it being accepted that if there was a silencer on it at that time the prospects of the sister being the murderer were nil."



They could have denied an application for an appeal. The silencer itself consists of two pillars of evidence

A - The blood on the inside that matches Sheila
B - The Paint on the outside that matches the AGA surround.

Dismantling A is all well and good but then you still have B showing the silencer was still used on the night. The same applies vice versa. For argument sake, If it was proven that the marks on Sheila's neck/chin show silencer abrasions but Jeremy could prove the scratches were put there afterwards, it does not overcome the evidence against him.
 

Suthurst's evidence was undermined Andy Laws claiming it was "inconclusive"
The logic applied by the CCRC makes sense, But it is raising the bar extremely high.

If it can be proven 100% that the scratches were made after the murders then they would probably have to grant an appeal.

the COA have already made a judgment back in 2002 on the relevant issue

"The sound moderator had on any view been attached to the rifle during the fight with Nevill Bamber in the kitchen. But if Sheila Caffell had committed suicide it must have been removed before she shot herself

Had the appellant's sister murdered the other members of her family with the moderator attached to the gun and then discovered she could not reach the trigger to kill herself, the moderator would have been found next to her body. There would have been no reason for her to have removed it and returned it to the gun cupboard before going back upstairs to commit suicide in her parents' room."


This brings us back the 2012 Judgment

"That question again has resolved into a narrow issue as to whether, when the fatal shot was fired in the kitchen at the father, Mr Bamber senior, the rifle used had on it a silencer, it being accepted that if there was a silencer on it at that time the prospects of the sister being the murderer were nil."



This is why the appeal was denied and the court sided with the CCRC.

The CCRC were not going to waste public money challenging the ballistics evidence (Sheila's abrasion rings) when they could fall back on the blood flake and to a lesser extent the scratch marks/paint. 

The so called marks on Mr Bamber's back are a non-starter as the pathologists at trial could not even argee on what they were or when they occurred. 

To date no evidence has been put forward to dent the silencer evidence that stands up to any sort of scrutiny.  The support group are now having a go on the basis of dodgy paperwork and multiple silencers. 

Offline David1819

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Re: THE SILENCER SAGA
« Reply #424 on: November 11, 2021, 10:29:PM »
The CCRC were not going to waste public money challenging the ballistics evidence (Sheila's abrasion rings) when they could fall back on the blood flake and to a lesser extent the scratch marks/paint. 


They couldn't challenge the evidence, read what I posted.


The so called marks on Mr Bamber's back are a non-starter as the pathologists at trial could not even argee on what they were or when they occurred. 


CAL interviewed Vanezis in 2014 -

With hindsight, Vanezis disagrees: ‘I’ve thought about this a lot, with the benefit of another twenty-eight years’ experience. If you put something hot against fairly thick clothing, you’re more likely to burn the skin than the clothing because of the properties of the skin. If you pushed a rifle against someone’s back, that would fit in very nicely with the gun having already been fired and the muzzle still being hot when touching the back.’ He discounts the poker: ‘No, I think it’s the gun pressed against his skin.

Lee, Carol Ann. The Murders at White House Farm: Jeremy Bamber and the killing of his family. The definitive investigation. (p. 193).


Moreover, when you consider the fact that Nevills burns are circular with an area in the centre less burned. Just like the Boyce experiments. There is little room for doubt for what caused them.

PS: Images 4 and 5 I have increased the contrast to make it easier to see.













Offline killingeve

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Re: THE SILENCER SAGA
« Reply #425 on: November 11, 2021, 10:49:PM »
They couldn't challenge the evidence, read what I posted.

CAL interviewed Vanezis in 2014 -

With hindsight, Vanezis disagrees: ‘I’ve thought about this a lot, with the benefit of another twenty-eight years’ experience. If you put something hot against fairly thick clothing, you’re more likely to burn the skin than the clothing because of the properties of the skin. If you pushed a rifle against someone’s back, that would fit in very nicely with the gun having already been fired and the muzzle still being hot when touching the back.’ He discounts the poker: ‘No, I think it’s the gun pressed against his skin.

Lee, Carol Ann. The Murders at White House Farm: Jeremy Bamber and the killing of his family. The definitive investigation. (p. 193).


Moreover, when you consider the fact that Nevills burns are circular with an area in the centre less burned. Just like the Boyce experiments. There is little room for doubt for what caused them.

PS: Images 4 and 5 I have increased the contrast to make it easier to see.











I can read the full doc attached.  Basically a polite way of saying no case to answer.

Prof Knight for the defence didn't think the marks were burns.  And according to him neither did the HO pathologist.

Offline lookout

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Re: THE SILENCER SAGA
« Reply #426 on: November 11, 2021, 10:51:PM »
Who but a severely deranged person would/ could cause such injuries, as well as the shooting and bashing of another person in this way ?

One category of a serial killer is to " rid the world of evildoers ".
" All people are bad and should be killed ", said Sheila.

Offline killingeve

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Re: THE SILENCER SAGA
« Reply #427 on: November 11, 2021, 10:55:PM »
I can read the full doc attached.  Basically a polite way of saying no case to answer.

Prof Knight for the defence didn't think the marks were burns.  And according to him neither did the HO pathologist.

Attached

Offline killingeve

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Re: THE SILENCER SAGA
« Reply #428 on: November 11, 2021, 10:57:PM »
Who but a severely deranged person would/ could cause such injuries, as well as the shooting and bashing of another person in this way ?

One category of a serial killer is to " rid the world of evildoers ".
" All people are bad and should be killed ", said Sheila.

The marks on Mr Bamber's back might be completely irrelevant to the murders.  According to Yvonne she has got to the bottom of them.

Offline Adam

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Re: THE SILENCER SAGA
« Reply #429 on: November 11, 2021, 11:09:PM »
Unfortunately for supporters, the silencer evidence is just one piece.

All the other sourced forensic evidence carries equal importance. Julie's huge WS is also very important.

Appreciate why the silencer is focused on. The relatives found it. Julie is focused on as she is such a strong prosecution witness.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline Adam

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Re: THE SILENCER SAGA
« Reply #430 on: November 11, 2021, 11:51:PM »
Supporters obviously like it when the topic is the silencer.

It gives the impression it is the only thing that convicted Bamber. If the evidence can be undermined.....

An example is this thread created by Bubo Bubo. The first few posts being very long. And this is just 'part 1'! 
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline Adam

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Re: THE SILENCER SAGA
« Reply #431 on: November 11, 2021, 11:54:PM »
Of course the silencer is important.

The paint & blood together with Bamber's phone call to the police, confirms his guilt.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline mike tesko

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Re: THE SILENCER SAGA
« Reply #432 on: November 12, 2021, 12:58:AM »
Of course the silencer is important.

The paint & blood together with Bamber's phone call to the police, confirms his guilt.

No, it does not..
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline Adam

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Re: THE SILENCER SAGA
« Reply #433 on: November 12, 2021, 08:35:AM »
The marks on Mr Bamber's back might be completely irrelevant to the murders.  According to Yvonne she has got to the bottom of them.

But 'non disclosure' from her.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline killingeve

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Re: THE SILENCER SAGA
« Reply #434 on: November 12, 2021, 08:53:AM »
But 'non disclosure' from her.

Yes!