The Official Jeremy Bamber and White House Farm Podcast Series - Season 1

[David1819]

Point 7 - Impossible for the claimed phone call to take place after the upstairs gunshot injuries as these rendered Mr Bamber snr incapable of purposeful talk thereafter.

Phone call was made before he went upstairs.

[killingeve]

Phone call was made before he went upstairs.

If you believe Bamber received such a call. 

[killingeve]

Well you did propose that Nevill was trying to stop Sheila killing herself after killing her children.  But if you want to change it, then Nevill trying to stop her committing suicide also raises a problem.  It's not plausible due to the specification of the weapon.  Just think about how she would have to go about killing herself using that rifle. It would be a very deliberative process, giving Nevill ample chance to intervene and stop her.

In my view, and after due consideration of the available facts and evidence, the only plausible and internally consistent Sheila scenario - in outline - is the following:

1. Sheila is schizophrenic.  Schizophrenics wander around at night.  Sheila can't sleep and wanders round the house.  She is upset and fearful (or angstful) as she considers the kitchen conversation earlier.

2. Nevill finds Sheila in the kitchen.  Sheila has the weapon.  It is loaded.

3. Nevill is trying to reason with Sheila, and rings Jeremy as a way of stalling her or persuading her to stop.  "If you don't stop, I'll ring Jeremy....Right, I'm calling Jeremy now...", etc.  That type of thing.

4. As Jeremy answers the phone, Sheila runs out of the kitchen and makes for the stairs.

5. Nevill terminates the call and goes after her.

6. Sheila fires on Nevill from the stairs, injuring him badly.  This is consistent with the blood evidence and the distribution of the spent cartridges on the landing.  She is advancing on him.  He turns and conspicuously makes for the kitchen, in an attempt to draw her away from the rest of the family upstairs.

7. Nevill and Sheila are now struggling in the kitchen, or Sheila just hits Nevill with the butt of the rifle, or whatever.  (Note: it is possible that the phone call to Jeremy happened at this point, just before Sheila reaches the kitchen, rather than earlier, but that would require that a police officer wipes the kitchen phone).

8. Nevill is unconscious.  I suspect he didn't die for some time and may have been alive and in and out of consciousness when Sheila killed herself later.  This is due to the accumulation of blood.

9. Sheila returns upstairs without reloading and shoots June.  She may have heard June shouting on the landing, etc.  Lookout's theory that June was first shot on the stairs may well be correct, as there needs to be a reason for a confrontation between Sheila and June, otherwise why wouldn't Sheila just go straight to the twins, then kill herself?

10. Sheila shoots June, initially only injuring her.  Sheila realises she out of ammunition.  She returns downstairs.  June is now crawling round the master bedroom towards the link door to the twins' room.

11. Sheila reloads the rifle and returns upstairs.  This time she shoots the twins, then shoots June, or maybe the order was June first, then the twins.  There may be at least one further fusillade if she has to re-load, depending on whether she could re-load the magazine fully.

12. Sheila then washes or cleans herself, and wipes the rifle action, then deliberately shoots herself.  She has a flash of clarity, and is ashamed of what she has done, therefore she doesn't commit this act in the twins' room but assumes she faces a long prison sentence and public opprobrium, etc., and thinks suicide is now her only way out.  She cries.  She knows her body will be found - obviously - and looking clean is important to her.

13. I have no idea if the movement at the window was Sheila.  The starting point with that would be astronomical charts to ascertain if moon light is a plausible explanation.  It doesn't necessarily matter to this scenario if Sheila was alive at a later point or not, was seen in the kitchen by the Raid Group, or even cut into an emergency phone line.  The ending is the same in either event. 

I posted more detailed Sheila scenarios in the past, but that will do as an outline.  Obviously there will be questions and issues with it.  I don't say this is perfect.  I also don't presume to say I know what happened, but I do say that this is roughly (allowing for variations) the only plausible way it could have happened if Jeremy is innocent.

9 - The forensic and pathological evidence shows Mrs Bamber was first shot in bed.  13 cartridge cases were found in the main bedroom with 1 on the landing. The forensic and pathological evidence shows Mr Bamber was shot 4 times upstairs. All of this is at odds with your scenario.p

[guest29835]

9 - The forensic and pathological evidence shows Mrs Bamber was first shot in bed.  13 cartridge cases were found in the main bedroom with 1 on the landing. The forensic and pathological evidence shows Mr Bamber was shot 4 times upstairs. All of this is at odds with your scenario.p

Neville's blood was not found in the master bedroom.

If June was first shot in bed, that is not at odds with my scenario.

[guest29835]

QC kindly posted a 12 point Sheila scenario. At last.

I responded to each point. As I did with Rob's scenario.

Not sure why QC should have such a tantrum & be so aggressive. Surely he knew I would respond. 

QC's scenario is a new scenario. So impossible for my posts today to be repetitive. Certainly not Spam as I am responding to somebodies post.

It will be disappointing if posters are not allowed to respond to Sheila scenarios. I posted my Bamber scenario years ago & have always welcomed responses.

Noone is throwing any tantrum. You have been asked politely by the moderator to cease spamming the thread and you have ignored him.

Noone objects to you critiquing posts. That is not the point being put to you. Please do not misrepresent me or lie about what I say.

The scenario I posted above is not new - something similar has been posted before. Indeed you commented on it on the previous occasion.

[guest29835]

Point 7 - Impossible for the claimed phone call to take place after the upstairs gunshot injuries as these rendered Mr Bamber snr incapable of purposeful talk thereafter.

I disagree. It depends on when he sustained the relevant injuries and in what order. I only moot it as a possibility anyway.  It is not essential to the scenario.

[Adam]

Nevill phoning Bamber after he had been shot?

A bit late.

[Adam]

Phone call was made before he went upstairs.

What was Sheila doing during the long time it took Bamber to -

Wake from sleeping 'like a log'. Upstairs.

Realise the phone was ringing.

Think about whether to answer it. Or ignore it.

Decide to get up, go downstairs and answer.

[Adam]

Neville's blood was not found in the master bedroom.

If June was first shot in bed, that is not at odds with my scenario.

Nevill was out of the bedroom in less than 10 seconds after receiving his first shot.

No time for any blood to drip.

Nevill's first two shots were from inches away. While he was in bed next to June.

[killingeve]

Neville's blood was not found in the master bedroom.

If June was first shot in bed, that is not at odds with my scenario.

I think you will find Mr Bamber's first name is without the 'e'.  Just sayin like since you seem rather pedantic and take great delight in pulling others up about such matters.

I posted the other day about bloodstaining from gunshot wounds so please keep up otherwise I will make a case for a ban for wasting time!  I will quote again from the defence pathologist at trial, Prof Bernard Knight, but there will not be a third time so please take note!  It also begs the question as to whether or not you actually read case material and if you do whether you are able to absorb, store and retrieve.     

"Bleeding is not as immediate as some people suspect.  There is often a momentary delay before bleeding starts.  The shock causes blood vessels to contract and then the blood comes out through the aperture".

This is what you said about Mrs Bamber's shots.  (As an aside, since you object to my use of 'pal' and 'matey' why are you referring to Mr and Mrs Bamber by their first names?)

9. Sheila returns upstairs without reloading and shoots June.  She may have heard June shouting on the landing, etc.  Lookout's theory that June was first shot on the stairs may well be correct, as there needs to be a reason for a confrontation between Sheila and June, otherwise why wouldn't Sheila just go straight to the twins, then kill herself?

Mrs Bamber was not first shot on the stairs.  Lookout is hardly a reliable source.  If I had my way I would ban the pair of you permanently!  Mrs Bamber was first shot in bed evidenced by her wounds which correspond with two bullets embedded in her pillow. 

How do you account for all the upstairs cartridge cases in the main bedroom, except the one on the landing, if Mr and Mrs Bamber were shot anywhere other than the main bedroom? 

The pathological evidence shows Mr Bamber snr was incapable of purposeful speech after the upstairs gunshot wounds so how did he make the call to Bamber?  Three cartridge cases were found in the kitchen and the pathologist said he would be incapable of voluntary movement after the gunshot wounds to the head.  Surely you can see from this alone Bamber is guilty?

* Mr Bamber must have received the 4 not immediately life threatening gunshot wounds upstairs in the bedroom and the 4 immediately fatal gunshot wounds in the kitchen downstairs.

* Mr Bamber was incapable of purposeful speech after the upstairs gunshot wounds.

[killingeve]

I disagree. It depends on when he sustained the relevant injuries and in what order. I only moot it as a possibility anyway.  It is not essential to the scenario.

Disagree all you like but it doesn't change the known facts which you seem oblivious to. 

Mr Bamber received four gunshot wounds upstairs in the main bedroom.  The pathologist confirmed the gunshot wounds to his lip and jaw meant he was incapable of purposeful speech thereafter so how could he have made the call to Bamber?

The four gunshot wounds downstairs in the kitchen were immediately fatal.  And in any event common sense would tell you that if Mr Bamber or anyone else for that matter had been shot he would call 999 not Bamber. 

[Adam]

June shouting on the landing. At what? She was shot 5 times in bed. Once in the neck. So barely able to crawl a few feet.

[Adam]

I think you will find Mr Bamber's first name is without the 'e'.  Just sayin like since you seem rather pedantic and take great delight in pulling others up about such matters.

I posted the other day about bloodstaining from gunshot wounds so please keep up otherwise I will make a case for a ban for wasting time!  I will quote again from the defence pathologist at trial, Prof Bernard Knight, but there will not be a third time so please take note!  It also begs the question as to whether or not you actually read case material and if you do whether you are able to absorb, store and retrieve.     

[i]"Bleeding is not as immediate as some people suspect.  There is often a momentary delay before bleeding starts.  The shock causes blood vessels to contract and then the blood comes out through the aperture".[/i]

This is what you said about Mrs Bamber's shots.  (As an aside, since you object to my use of 'pal' and 'matey' why are you referring to Mr and Mrs Bamber by their first names?)

9. Sheila returns upstairs without reloading and shoots June.  She may have heard June shouting on the landing, etc.  Lookout's theory that June was first shot on the stairs may well be correct, as there needs to be a reason for a confrontation between Sheila and June, otherwise why wouldn't Sheila just go straight to the twins, then kill herself?

Mrs Bamber was not first shot on the stairs.  Lookout is hardly a reliable source.  If I had my way I would ban the pair of you permanently!  Mrs Bamber was first shot in bed evidenced by her wounds which correspond with two bullets embedded in her pillow. 

How do you account for all the upstairs cartridge cases in the main bedroom, except the one on the landing, if Mr and Mrs Bamber were shot anywhere other than the main bedroom? 

The pathological evidence shows Mr Bamber snr was incapable of purposeful speech after the upstairs gunshot wounds so how did he make the call to Bamber?  Three cartridge cases were found in the kitchen and the pathologist said he would be incapable of voluntary movement after the gunshot wounds to the head.  Surely you can see from this alone Bamber is guilty?

* Mr Bamber must have received the 4 not immediately life threatening gunshot wounds upstairs in the bedroom and the 4 immediately fatal gunshot wounds in the kitchen downstairs.

* Mr Bamber was incapable of purposeful speech after the upstairs gunshot wounds.

Nevill was not in the bedroom long enough to bleed. Either on the bed or on the carpet.

He was out of bed before Bamber could fire a third face shot. Then out of the door straight after his two torso shots.

Besides which June had crawled across the bedroom & back. Her blood would have negated any of Nevill's unlikely blood.

[guest7363]

Disagree all you like but it doesn't change the known facts which you seem oblivious to. 

Mr Bamber received four gunshot wounds upstairs in the main bedroom.  The pathologist confirmed the gunshot wounds to his lip and jaw meant he was incapable of purposeful speech thereafter so how could he have made the call to Bamber?

The four gunshot wounds downstairs in the kitchen were immediately fatal.  And in any event common sense would tell you that if Mr Bamber or anyone else for that matter had been shot he would call 999 not Bamber.

Not only that, Bamber never mentions his Dad had been shot for anyone who believes Bamber’s story about the phone call.

If we go by Roch and Lookout that Sheila shot Nevill because he tried to stop her joining her children, how do they account for June, did she try and stop her as well even though she had killed Nevill or vice versa?  If Sheila was that determined to join her children, why didn’t she kill herself in the same room so she could be with them in death?

[guest29835]

I think you will find Mr Bamber's first name is without the 'e'.  Just sayin like since you seem rather pedantic and take great delight in pulling others up about such matters.

Autocorrect on a mobile device.

You'll find that I have spelt Nevill's name correctly literally hundreds of times on here, including on this thread in the posts above. 

So your pedantry is in vain.

And it's saying, not 'sayin'. 

And I don't take delight in pulling others up about such matters.  I pulled you up about your inability to use the possessive apostrophe because you are rude to me and you carry yourself around as if you know everything about the case and about the law.  Therefore, it was appropriate for me to step in and pull you down a peg, just as it was also appropriate for me to correct you on legal terminology.

People who think they know everything, rarely do, and it tends to be a sign of insecurity.

Your rudeness is despite my defence of you early on and was totally needless and unprovoked.  You are an arrogant, ignorant, rude, obnoxious lout.

Mrs Bamber was not first shot on the stairs.  Lookout is hardly a reliable source.  If I had my way I would ban the pair of you permanently! 

I was not using Lookout as a source.  If you go back and read carefully what I said, I stated that Lookout may be correct that June was first shot on the stairs - though it could also be that I am misremembering what Lookout said.  That in itself is not important, since Lookout is not my source, it just seemed that her view about it coincidences with a possibility I am considering for this scenario in order to explain why June confronted Sheila. 

There is a bullet hole in a pillow and blood on the bed, but that does not mean June was shot first in the bed.  She may have got out of bed, then approached the landing and shouted down, then Sheila began firing at her, then she returned to the area of the bed. 

While you're here, could you be careful how to speak to myself and other members on here?  You are now calling for myself and Lookout to be banned, simply because we hold different views to your own.

I think the moderator needs to have a quiet word with you.  And with Adam.