Author Topic: How Did Jeremy Move To And From The Farmhouse? Some Thoughts & Problems...  (Read 9166 times)

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Offline Adam

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Jet skis need water?  I wish you'd mentioned that before, Adam.  I'll have to go back and change the CCRC submission now.  Anyway, thanks Adam.

I found out the hard way. Buying one for work. But not appropriate for London roads.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

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I found out the hard way. Buying one for work. But not appropriate for London roads.
😂😂😂😂

Offline David1819

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I found out the hard way. Buying one for work. But not appropriate for London roads.

What is wrong with the Thames?

guest29835

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He could have used a flying saucer. The aliens could have given Jeremy a lift in exchange for a farm sheep!

Thanks David.  As you know, that's my main theory and I'm keeping it all under wraps for the appeal, so please, keep it off the Forum.  We don't want one of Adam's lists, i.e. Why Jeremy Could Not Have Been Abducted By Aliens On The Night: 86 Pieces of Evidence.

guest29835

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I found out the hard way. Buying one for work. But not appropriate for London roads.

Thanks Adam.  It's important that we have the benefit of your experience here on the Forum.

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Back this thread, as I understand it from posters above, the pro-guilt position on this issue is as follows:

(i). Jeremy did not make a call from White House Farm back to Goldhanger, he simply invented the call.

(ii). Within a broader time bracket of two or three hours, he was free to take his time moving to and from the farmhouse.  (I will assume he went on foot both ways, as I think common-sense points that way).

(iii). Therefore, Jeremy undertook the calculated risk or gamble (depending on what he already knew) that phone calls cannot be logged or pinpointed in any way by the authorities.  Or, it's that he came up with the phone calls idea on the hoof because Nevill ended up in the kitchen and he didn't think to actually stage a real call, or maybe the idea came later if he thought he'd been seen when re-entering Bourtree Cottage after carrying out the shootings.

(iv). If the phone calls were planned and if Jeremy did make enquiries about this issue prior to carrying out the shootings, he managed to do so unobtrusively, without leaving a paper trail or potential witnesses.  Either that, or again, he gambled, or maybe there were witnesses or other evidence, but Essex Police regarded it as non-material evidence and it's somewhere in Mike's archive or not disclosed yet and we don't know about it.

To be honest, I am struggling to give credence to the idea that Jeremy would take the risk of not staging a call and fitting his movements around this.  If guilters are right about this, then surely Jeremy would be worried and concerned on the morning of 7th. about police enquiries with the phone company?  I know I would be.  Why wouldn't Jeremy just call the answering machine at Goldhanger, then terminate the call, then dispose of the tape at the other end when he reaches Bourtree Cottage?

If you're a detective in this situation, isn't this one of the very first things you would check?  Even if you knew it could be futile, wouldn't you contact the phone company?  Everything hinges on the claim of a call from Nevill and the call to Julie in the early hours (at whatever time it was) looks suspicious.  I realise they didn't have itemised billing back then, and I also appreciate there were probably detectives within Essex CID who had raised the same question before on other major investigations, nevertheless this was a major incident and I would not leave any stone unturned.  Surely Jeremy would have assumed this too?

On a different note, in all seriousness, could this explain the involvement of Essex Police Special Branch in an otherwise mundane criminal matter?  County Special Branches will be involved in national security and civil contingency and maybe Essex CID contacted them to ascertain what, if anything, could be done to establish whether certain calls had been made.  This is a murder inquiry and it would have justified.

Offline Jane

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Back this thread, as I understand it from posters above, the pro-guilt position on this issue is as follows:

(i). Jeremy did not make a call from White House Farm back to Goldhanger, he simply invented the call.

(ii). Within a broader time bracket of two or three hours, he was free to take his time moving to and from the farmhouse.  (I will assume he went on foot both ways, as I think common-sense points that way).

(iii). Therefore, Jeremy undertook the calculated risk or gamble (depending on what he already knew) that phone calls cannot be logged or pinpointed in any way by the authorities.  Or, it's that he came up with the phone calls idea on the hoof because Nevill ended up in the kitchen and he didn't think to actually stage a real call, or maybe the idea came later if he thought he'd been seen when re-entering Bourtree Cottage after carrying out the shootings.

(iv). If the phone calls were planned and if Jeremy did make enquiries about this issue prior to carrying out the shootings, he managed to do so unobtrusively, without leaving a paper trail or potential witnesses.  Either that, or again, he gambled, or maybe there were witnesses or other evidence, but Essex Police regarded it as non-material evidence and it's somewhere in Mike's archive or not disclosed yet and we don't know about it.

To be honest, I am struggling to give credence to the idea that Jeremy would take the risk of not staging a call and fitting his movements around this.  If guilters are right about this, then surely Jeremy would be worried and concerned on the morning of 7th. about police enquiries with the phone company?  I know I would be.  Why wouldn't Jeremy just call the answering machine at Goldhanger, then terminate the call, then dispose of the tape at the other end when he reaches Bourtree Cottage?

If you're a detective in this situation, isn't this one of the very first things you would check?  Even if you knew it could be futile, wouldn't you contact the phone company?  Everything hinges on the claim of a call from Nevill and the call to Julie in the early hours (at whatever time it was) looks suspicious.  I realise they didn't have itemised billing back then, and I also appreciate there were probably detectives within Essex CID who had raised the same question before on other major investigations, nevertheless this was a major incident and I would not leave any stone unturned.  Surely Jeremy would have assumed this too?

On a different note, in all seriousness, could this explain the involvement of Essex Police Special Branch in an otherwise mundane criminal matter?  County Special Branches will be involved in national security and civil contingency and maybe Essex CID contacted them to ascertain what, if anything, could be done to establish whether certain calls had been made.  This is a murder inquiry and it would have justified.


The mysterious case of the disappearing answering machine! I can't believe you haven't discovered the discussion which was going on just a little while before you joined in. It was always thought that police took away the answering machine from Bourtree -I can't remember when this would have been. They had no reason to take it the morning after the murders because he wasn't a suspect- but it's more than possible that by then he'd have had time to replace the casette. However, it's been recently claimed that Jeremy didn't have an answering machine.

You're speaking with the benefit of hindsight when you talk about making checks. For the first week -at least- there was nothing to check. It was cut and dried. By the time it registered that things might not be that straight forward, what might have been staring them in the face, had disappeared.

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The mysterious case of the disappearing answering machine! I can't believe you haven't discovered the discussion which was going on just a little while before you joined in. It was always thought that police took away the answering machine from Bourtree -I can't remember when this would have been. They had no reason to take it the morning after the murders because he wasn't a suspect- but it's more than possible that by then he'd have had time to replace the casette. However, it's been recently claimed that Jeremy didn't have an answering machine.

You're speaking with the benefit of hindsight when you talk about making checks. For the first week -at least- there was nothing to check. It was cut and dried. By the time it registered that things might not be that straight forward, what might have been staring them in the face, had disappeared.

I'm talking about what Jeremy is likely to have anticipated.  Whether police really did check things is not the point.  I'm not looking at things in hindsight, I'm endeavouring to look at things with foresight, or whatever foresight we can reasonably allow for Jeremy as a fairly bright and physically-fit 24 year old man.

If, as most guilters claim, Jeremy planned all this out, then this has implications for how he carried out the act.  I personally don't believe he planned it, and I suspect the phone calls were the result of 'thinking on the hoof' due to something that occurred on the night, but let's assume I am wrong and he did plan it. 

I will grant that he may not have planned it very well, but he must have given thought to the phone calls.  Are we seriously suggesting that he invented the call from Nevill out of thin air?  Isn't it more likely that he used the phones and his answering machine to stage a call in the belief that otherwise phone records might reveal no call was placed at the likely time?  If he did stage a call, that ties the killings quite close to the approximate time bracket that he made the calls to Julie and the police, meaning he had maybe 30 minutes at the most to make it back to Bourtree Cottage. 

Just as an additional technical note, I do not believe the possibility can be ruled out that there was some sort of call record logged at the exchange.  During the 1970s, the Post Office were running experiments in call logging for the purposes of collecting Call Data Records (CDRs) at mechanical and electronic exchanges, as they were then prior to the introduction of the digital exchange.  These experiments and trials were successful and the technology was compatible with the old Strowger exchanges, and so it is possible that there was a CDR available and either the police didn't check or they did and they have withheld what they found.

Offline Jane

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I'm talking about what Jeremy is likely to have anticipated.  Whether police really did check things is not the point.  I'm not looking at things in hindsight, I'm endeavouring to look at things with foresight, or whatever foresight we can reasonably allow for Jeremy as a fairly bright and physically-fit 24 year old man.

If, as most guilters claim, Jeremy planned all this out, then this has implications for how he carried out the act.  I personally don't believe he planned it, and I suspect the phone calls were the result of 'thinking on the hoof' due to something that occurred on the night, but let's assume I am wrong and he did plan it. 

I will grant that he may not have planned it very well, but he must have given thought to the phone calls.  Are we seriously suggesting that he invented the call from Nevill out of thin air?  Isn't it more likely that he used the phones and his answering machine to stage a call in the belief that otherwise phone records might reveal no call was placed at the likely time?  If he did stage a call, that ties the killings quite close to the approximate time bracket that he made the calls to Julie and the police, meaning he had maybe 30 minutes at the most to make it back to Bourtree Cottage. 

Just as an additional technical note, I do not believe the possibility can be ruled out that there was some sort of call record logged at the exchange.  During the 1970s, the Post Office were running experiments in call logging for the purposes of collecting Call Data Records (CDRs) at mechanical and electronic exchanges, as they were then prior to the introduction of the digital exchange.  These experiments and trials were successful and the technology was compatible with the old Strowger exchanges, and so it is possible that there was a CDR available and either the police didn't check or they did and they have withheld what they found.


I have no reason to believe that Jeremy didn't plan with "foresight". HIS foresight, though. Not the foresight you, or indeed, I, would have employed. It's unreasonable to think he wouldn't have taken into consideration the things he believed might have tripped him up, but, as I've said previously, nothing is ever 100% failsafe. He couldn't have legislated for what he had no understanding of, but within his frame of reference I'm certain he'd have felt that he'd covered all bases.

Were it not for the very recent dispute about the presence -or not- of an answering machine, your suggestion makes sense. There now appears to be a question mark over it, supporters claiming that Ann would have mentioned it?

I think -well, I won't rule out the possibility- that some calls in some areas may have been logged. I don't hold that all calls were, in all areas. Caroline may be able to shed more light on this because she'd been in contact with the engineer responsible for the Maldon area exchange.

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I think guilters may wish to ponder this issue further.  If Jeremy planned this, then did he invent the call from Nevill out of thin air or did he stage it?

If he invented the call, that means he is taking a huge risk in assuming that the police won't be able to log calls.  How will he know this one way or the other?  It is said that he asked the police to check with the phone company that certain calls were made.  Was that a bluff?

If, on the other hand, he did stage the call from Nevill, this seems to accord much more with some of the known facts, such as his slowness in notifying the authorities - including messing around looking through the phone book and ringing two different police stations - and later asking that the police check with the phone company. 

If we are saying that the call was staged, this means that, from the point he ended this staged call, Jeremy had a maximum 30 minute window to make it back to Bourtree Cottage and notify the police. 

During this 30 minutes, he had to:

(i). Wait for the answering machine at the outside end to beep, so that the call lasted a decent period.
(ii). Terminate the call.
(iii). Clean the phone.
(iv). Change into fresh clothes.
(v). Leave the farmhouse through the window (or howsoever he made his exit).
(vi). Return to Goldhanger, on foot.  This is roughly 2.5 miles as the crow flies, but he will need to negotiate and circumvent obstacles along the way, such as fences and ditches and what not.
(vii). At the outskirts of Goldhanger, hide his incriminating clothes and change footwear, for retrieval later on the night of the 7th./8th.  This was necessary because he doesn't want to be seen near his house with a rucksack.
(viii). Sneak back into Bourtree Cottage, or if seen, make an excuse such as having received an emergency call or heard an intruder, or whatever.
(ix). Shower and change again into fresh clothes.
(x). Make the brief phone call to Julie.
(xi). Call Witham Police Station and let this ring out.
(xii). Dial the number for Chelmsford Police Station for P.C. West to answer.

Even if it can manage all this in 30 minutes, it still looks suspicious, but not as suspicious as 35 minutes or 40 minutes.

Could Jeremy have carried out (i) to (xii) above in 30 minutes?

Now let us consider some timings.

If I understand correctly, Jeremy claims the call was from his father at roughly 3.10 a.m.  Obviously we must be reasonable and allow that Jeremy's timing may be considerably out.  It could have been 3.00 a.m., but equally it could also have been later than 3.10 a.m. - several minutes later even.  Essex Police also inadvertently assisted Jeremy by getting their timings wrong, but it does seem likely that the explanation for the time discrepancy at Chelmsford HQ is simple: West accidentally recorded the start time of the call as its end time, 3.36 a.m., thus Bonnett was correct that his phone or radio call with West commenced at 3.26 a.m.  This allows for Jeremy to call West at, say, 3.24 a.m.  That makes sense.

Having established this, the timings look very tight for Jeremy to be guilty and the whole thing doesn't look very plausible.  To make the pro-guilt position seem more plausible, we'd have to suppose that Jeremy is wildly out on his own time for Nevill's call.  This is possible, of course, because Jeremy has a vested interest in pushing forward the time of Nevill's call, and even if Jeremy assumes that calls are somehow logged, he may be counting on 'winging it' by pretending there is some sort of mix-up or he was confused or tired.  But the problem with this is that we can only stretch the timings this so far.  It looks suspicious enough as it is.  At some point it will simply be rejected as not credible.

I selected 30 minutes for Jeremy's time window arbitrarily because, psychologically, that seems to be the maximum outside parameter for Jeremy to 'dilly-dally', but if Jeremy is telling the police he got the call at 3.10 a.m., would it not seem strange and suspicious if it turned out from the examination of call logs at the exchange that he had in fact received the call at, say, 2.54 a.m.?  And even if we assume that he could brazen it out and get away with it, could he really have made the call from White House Farm at 2.54 a.m., perhaps waiting a minute or so, then terminate the call, and carry out all the other steps (i) to (xii) above and manage to dial the number for Chelmsford Police Station by, say, 3.24 a.m.?  Does this not stretch credulity?

Where does this leave guilters?

The options:

1. The first option is to say he returned to Goldhanger by some quicker method, such as a push bike.  I view this as extremely unlikely on basic common sense grounds and would dismiss it.  It's too complicated and risky.  Lots of things can go wrong with the bike, it means he has to use footpaths and bridleways, he is more likely to be seen or heard by somebody, and he will need to use lights; he is also more likely to run into somebody on one of the footpaths if he is on a bike, he won't want to carry the bike if something goes wrong, and if he decides to leave the bike or abandon it somewhere then that entails the risk of it being found and reported to the police.  When you put it all together, it looks like a total non-starter.  But the bike idea, while immensely risky, does have one advantage: it allows him to return quickly, which means that the phone calls side of the plan knits together much better because he can more plausibly stage a call from Nevill and then call the police from Goldhanger within the 30 minute window.

2. The second option is to abandon the idea of a staged call and rely on the supposition that Jeremy just invented the call out of thin air.  This would grant considerable latitude in the timings and avoids the problem of Jeremy having a narrow time window to return to Bourtree Cottage and make his calls, and do everything else he has to do in the process.  However, this raises a new problem: How does Jeremy know that the police can't retrieve call information from British Telecom? How does he explain himself if they do or if they come back and claim that there is no record of any such call from White House Farm to Goldhanger?  Can he wing it?  What does he say?  Or do you think he researched the point?  If he did research it, how does he go about that without leaving a paper trail and/or witnesses?  Or do you think he relied simple-mindedly on the bills not being itemised, assuming that meant no calls would be recorded or pinpointed?  That would make him perhaps a bit dense, but as it turned out, it was the right calculation, at least as far as this matter is concerned.

3.  The third option is to accept there is reasonable doubt on the basis that there are difficulties with his moving between the farmhouse and Goldhanger and making the calls, meaning that there is a reasonable possibility that in fact the call from Nevill really happened and was not staged or made-up.

These options are not mutually-exclusive, especially 2 and 3.  You could accept them in some combination, depending on how convinced you are that Jeremy could and would pull this off without staging a call from Nevill.

Offline Caroline

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I think guilters may wish to ponder this issue further.  If Jeremy planned this, then did he invent the call from Nevill out of thin air or did he stage it?

If he invented the call, that means he is taking a huge risk in assuming that the police won't be able to log calls.  How will he know this one way or the other?  It is said that he asked the police to check with the phone company that certain calls were made.  Was that a bluff?

If, on the other hand, he did stage the call from Nevill, this seems to accord much more with some of the known facts, such as his slowness in notifying the authorities - including messing around looking through the phone book and ringing two different police stations - and later asking that the police check with the phone company. 

If we are saying that the call was staged, this means that, from the point he ended this staged call, Jeremy had a maximum 30 minute window to make it back to Bourtree Cottage and notify the police. 

During this 30 minutes, he had to:

(i). Wait for the answering machine at the outside end to beep, so that the call lasted a decent period.
(ii). Terminate the call.
(iii). Clean the phone.
(iv). Change into fresh clothes.
(v). Leave the farmhouse through the window (or howsoever he made his exit).
(vi). Return to Goldhanger, on foot.  This is roughly 2.5 miles as the crow flies, but he will need to negotiate and circumvent obstacles along the way, such as fences and ditches and what not.
(vii). At the outskirts of Goldhanger, hide his incriminating clothes and change footwear, for retrieval later on the night of the 7th./8th.  This was necessary because he doesn't want to be seen near his house with a rucksack.
(viii). Sneak back into Bourtree Cottage, or if seen, make an excuse such as having received an emergency call or heard an intruder, or whatever.
(ix). Shower and change again into fresh clothes.
(x). Make the brief phone call to Julie.
(xi). Call Witham Police Station and let this ring out.
(xii). Dial the number for Chelmsford Police Station for P.C. West to answer.

Even if it can manage all this in 30 minutes, it still looks suspicious, but not as suspicious as 35 minutes or 40 minutes.

Could Jeremy have carried out (i) to (xii) above in 30 minutes?

Now let us consider some timings.

If I understand correctly, Jeremy claims the call was from his father at roughly 3.10 a.m.  Obviously we must be reasonable and allow that Jeremy's timing may be considerably out.  It could have been 3.00 a.m., but equally it could also have been later than 3.10 a.m. - several minutes later even.  Essex Police also inadvertently assisted Jeremy by getting their timings wrong, but it does seem likely that the explanation for the time discrepancy at Chelmsford HQ is simple: West accidentally recorded the start time of the call as its end time, 3.36 a.m., thus Bonnett was correct that his phone or radio call with West commenced at 3.26 a.m.  This allows for Jeremy to call West at, say, 3.24 a.m.  That makes sense.

Having established this, the timings look very tight for Jeremy to be guilty and the whole thing doesn't look very plausible.  To make the pro-guilt position seem more plausible, we'd have to suppose that Jeremy is wildly out on his own time for Nevill's call.  This is possible, of course, because Jeremy has a vested interest in pushing forward the time of Nevill's call, and even if Jeremy assumes that calls are somehow logged, he may be counting on 'winging it' by pretending there is some sort of mix-up or he was confused or tired.  But the problem with this is that we can only stretch the timings this so far.  It looks suspicious enough as it is.  At some point it will simply be rejected as not credible.

I selected 30 minutes for Jeremy's time window arbitrarily because, psychologically, that seems to be the maximum outside parameter for Jeremy to 'dilly-dally', but if Jeremy is telling the police he got the call at 3.10 a.m., would it not seem strange and suspicious if it turned out from the examination of call logs at the exchange that he had in fact received the call at, say, 2.54 a.m.?  And even if we assume that he could brazen it out and get away with it, could he really have made the call from White House Farm at 2.54 a.m., perhaps waiting a minute or so, then terminate the call, and carry out all the other steps (i) to (xii) above and manage to dial the number for Chelmsford Police Station by, say, 3.24 a.m.?  Does this not stretch credulity?

Where does this leave guilters?

The options:

1. The first option is to say he returned to Goldhanger by some quicker method, such as a push bike.  I view this as extremely unlikely on basic common sense grounds and would dismiss it.  It's too complicated and risky.  Lots of things can go wrong with the bike, it means he has to use footpaths and bridleways, he is more likely to be seen or heard by somebody, and he will need to use lights; he is also more likely to run into somebody on one of the footpaths if he is on a bike, he won't want to carry the bike if something goes wrong, and if he decides to leave the bike or abandon it somewhere then that entails the risk of it being found and reported to the police.  When you put it all together, it looks like a total non-starter.  But the bike idea, while immensely risky, does have one advantage: it allows him to return quickly, which means that the phone calls side of the plan knits together much better because he can more plausibly stage a call from Nevill and then call the police from Goldhanger within the 30 minute window.

2. The second option is to abandon the idea of a staged call and rely on the supposition that Jeremy just invented the call out of thin air.  This would grant considerable latitude in the timings and avoids the problem of Jeremy having a narrow time window to return to Bourtree Cottage and make his calls, and do everything else he has to do in the process.  However, this raises a new problem: How does Jeremy know that the police can't retrieve call information from British Telecom? How does he explain himself if they do or if they come back and claim that there is no record of any such call from White House Farm to Goldhanger?  Can he wing it?  What does he say?  Or do you think he researched the point?  If he did research it, how does he go about that without leaving a paper trail and/or witnesses?  Or do you think he relied simple-mindedly on the bills not being itemised, assuming that meant no calls would be recorded or pinpointed?  That would make him perhaps a bit dense, but as it turned out, it was the right calculation, at least as far as this matter is concerned.

3.  The third option is to accept there is reasonable doubt on the basis that there are difficulties with his moving between the farmhouse and Goldhanger and making the calls, meaning that there is a reasonable possibility that in fact the call from Nevill really happened and was not staged or made-up.

These options are not mutually-exclusive, especially 2 and 3.  You could accept them in some combination, depending on how convinced you are that Jeremy could and would pull this off without staging a call from Nevill.

Why does he need to hide his clothes and shoes?
Few people have the imagination for reality

guest29835

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Why does he need to hide his clothes and shoes?

It's explained in the sentence where you've highlighted.

Offline Caroline

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It's explained in the sentence where you've highlighted.

You say his clothes would be incriminating - in what way?
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guest29835

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You say his clothes would be incriminating - in what way?

It's two points:

1. First, I have him changing before he leaves the farmhouse.  This is so that he doesn't leave blood traces as he leaves, which is especially important if he is exiting in the way the prosecution say. He then needs to get rid of these clothes, or at least wash them.  In any event, he carries them with him to the outskirts of Goldhanger.

2. Second, I have him hiding those clothes outside Goldhanger, probably in a rucksack or similar, and retrieving them later on the night of the 7th./8th.  He doesn't want to be caught outside Bourtree Cottage carrying his clothes because if he is caught re-entering the immediate vicinity of Bourtree Cottage, he needs to have a plausible excuse, such as that he has received an emergency call or he is dealing with an intruder or whatever and, in my view, a rucksack or bag of clothes would look incongruous.

I think he would also change and hide his footwear outside Goldhanger.  If on foot, he would be using walking boots or work boots, and he would change these to normal footwear.

Offline Caroline

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It's two points:

1. First, I have him changing before he leaves the farmhouse.  This is so that he doesn't leave blood traces as he leaves, which is especially important if he is exiting in the way the prosecution say. He then needs to get rid of these clothes, or at least wash them.  In any event, he carries them with him to the outskirts of Goldhanger.

2. Second, I have him hiding those clothes outside Goldhanger, probably in a rucksack or similar, and retrieving them later on the night of the 7th./8th.  He doesn't want to be caught outside Bourtree Cottage carrying his clothes because if he is caught re-entering the immediate vicinity of Bourtree Cottage, he needs to have a plausible excuse, such as that he has received an emergency call or he is dealing with an intruder or whatever and, in my view, a rucksack or bag of clothes would look incongruous.

I think he would also change and hide his footwear outside Goldhanger.  If on foot, he would be using walking boots or work boots, and he would change these to normal footwear.

Yes, I understand that but are you implying that his clothes would be incriminating because they would be blood stained?
Few people have the imagination for reality