Author Topic: The Baffling Mystery Of The Blood In The Silencer  (Read 21594 times)

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Offline Roch

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Re: The Baffling Mystery Of The Blood In The Silencer
« Reply #45 on: July 23, 2020, 05:14:PM »
It's supposed to mean what it says.  The post is plain English. 

In addition, it's possible that the family intentionally contaminated the silencer in an effort to frame somebody they genuinely believed to be guilty.

So we have four major possibilities:

GUILT - The Crown are right and I'm wrong and the silencer was used by Jeremy to kill his family.  Case closed.  I'm off to the astronomy forum.

MISTAKE - The family have innocently introduced the silencer into evidence, not realising it wasn't used, in the genuine and sincere belief that Jeremy is guilty and that the silencer was used in the shootings.  In this scenario, the silencer may or may not have been contaminated, but if it was, then the contamination was due to mistake or negligence on the part of the family and/or the police.

NOBLE CAUSE CORRUPTION - The family have framed Jeremy because they believe he is guilty.  In this scenario, they may or may not believe the silencer was used in the shootings, and it may or may not have been used, but irrespective of this, it was intentionally contaminated by the family and/or the police.

MALEVOLENCE - The family have framed Jeremy not caring whether he is guilty or not or while being reckless as to the question of his culpability.  Personally, I think it is rather unlikely the police would involve themselves in this sort of escapade, whether individually or somehow corporately.  Anybody here who differs in that view should provide examples of other cases where this has happened.

I think the most likely explanation is MISTAKE.

However, I also believe NOBLE CAUSE CORRUPTION is a distinct possibility and it has solid evidence to commend it, though it's far from proved.

In any event, an appellate court only needs to be satisfied that contamination (on whatever basis) could have occurred and the conviction is then unsafe.

I do accept the point being made here that the official position, never mind anything else, is that the silencer is already compromised evidence and weak.  Nevertheless, the way I see it is that you attack at the weakest line of defence.  I don't believe that the Crown's admission that the silencer is weak evidence is a reason not to further attack the silencer.

That being said, I am not a mouthpiece for a probable mass murderer.  I am not on Jeremy's side.  I'm just giving my view about it all.  This whole thing is larger than Jeremy.  It's about justice.  You can't lock somebody up for decades on compromised evidence.

Shouldn't noble cause corruption equate to a definitely guilty person being fit up? If a person is merely suspected of being guilty and evidence is then fabricated accordingly to pursue a conviction, there's nothing noble about that. It's pure arrogance.

Offline David1819

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Re: The Baffling Mystery Of The Blood In The Silencer
« Reply #46 on: July 23, 2020, 05:36:PM »

MISTAKE - The family have innocently introduced the silencer into evidence, not realising it wasn't used, in the genuine and sincere belief that Jeremy is guilty and that the silencer was used in the shootings.  In this scenario, the silencer may or may not have been contaminated, but if it was, then the contamination was due to mistake or negligence on the part of the family and/or the police.
ack the silencer.


They told the police it was involved in the shootings. They knew there was blood and paint from the mantle shelf prior to the lab confirming that was the case.

It was no mistake.

guest29835

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Re: The Baffling Mystery Of The Blood In The Silencer
« Reply #47 on: July 23, 2020, 06:03:PM »
Shouldn't noble cause corruption equate to a definitely guilty person being fit up? If a person is merely suspected of being guilty and evidence is then fabricated accordingly to pursue a conviction, there's nothing noble about that. It's pure arrogance.

I see what you mean but I disagree.  Let me explain my thinking.

First, the family can't know for absolute sure that he is guilty.  To his credit, even David Boutflour impliedly concedes this in an interview I've watched.  They can't be sure in the sense of being absolutely metaphysically sure.  Even if Jeremy was caught red-handed standing over Nevill with the rifle, we'd still not be sure because we'd need to inquire into his state of mind.  (I actually suspect this is indeed what happened: he went crazy).

The term 'corrupt' has a double meaning in my understanding.  It conventionally means acting out of malice for personal gain, but it can also refer to dysfunctional actions.  No doubt you've heard the term 'corrupt software' in computer science, which refers to something dysfunctional and maybe harmful, but not necessarily malicious.  In human behaviour, a person's actions can be corrupted out of a misguided attempt to act for noble goals but that leads the individual away from justice.

Basically, if you genuinely believe somebody is guilty and you seek to frame them on this basis, or you are reckless as to investigative protocols and standards on the basis of such a motive, then your intentions have become corrupted - hence the term, noble cause corruption.

If it turns out the individual was innocent all along, it's still noble cause corruption because you believed they were guilty.

The outcome is still the same, though.  I think maybe you're conflating outcome with means.  I understand what you are getting it, but in my understanding the terminology refers to the beliefs and motivations behind the corrupt acts, not the outcome. 

guest29835

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Re: The Baffling Mystery Of The Blood In The Silencer
« Reply #48 on: July 23, 2020, 06:05:PM »
They told the police it was involved in the shootings. They knew there was blood and paint from the mantle shelf prior to the lab confirming that was the case.

It was no mistake.

I want to form my own view about it.

Offline gringo

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Re: The Baffling Mystery Of The Blood In The Silencer
« Reply #49 on: July 23, 2020, 06:50:PM »
They told the police it was involved in the shootings. They knew there was blood and paint from the mantle shelf prior to the lab confirming that was the case.

It was no mistake.
   This can only be down to
   A) prior knowledge( they knew because they put it there) or
   B) by some unexplained huge stroke of serendipitous fortune, one or more of the relatives correctly guessed where to look and what to look for, having solved how Jeremy had committed the murders using  nothing more than jealousy, gossip and suspicion.

   A seems most likely ::)

 

Offline Adam

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Re: The Baffling Mystery Of The Blood In The Silencer
« Reply #50 on: July 23, 2020, 06:57:PM »
The relatives would need to -


Have the idea.

Agree with each other to attempt this. Knowing the consequences if caught.

Know if successful, it still may not convict Bamber if there is strong evidence incriminating Sheila.

Know Sheila had received contact shots.

Know whether the other deceased people received contact shots.

Know where each person's contact shots were. Some areas are more likely to provide back splatter.

Know there was no blood on the rifle barrel.

Know Sheila could not shoot herself with the silencer attached.

Know about back splatter.

Know how to insert back splatter.

Know Sheila's blood group.

Know the blood group of the other deceased people.

Know whether any of themselves had the same blood group as Sheila.

Know there was no other evidence which incriminated Sheila.

Know the crime scene photographs did not show the aga.

Know whether the silencers had already been looked at by police.

Act quickly & submit the silencer straight away. Time was not on their side.

Accept they may be wrong & Sheila may be guilty. Meaning they are framing an innocent man.

Not retract a word of their statements.

----------

Obviously impossible for the relatives to do all this.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2020, 04:52:AM by Adam »
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline Adam

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Re: The Baffling Mystery Of The Blood In The Silencer
« Reply #51 on: July 23, 2020, 07:00:PM »
The relatives would need to know the blood groups of all deceased people.

If June & Sheila had the same blood group, the defence could just say Sheila took the silencer off & put it away after shooting June.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

guest29835

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Re: The Baffling Mystery Of The Blood In The Silencer
« Reply #52 on: July 23, 2020, 07:01:PM »
   This can only be down to
   A) prior knowledge( they knew because they put it there) or
   B) by some unexplained huge stroke of serendipitous fortune, one or more of the relatives correctly guessed where to look and what to look for, having solved how Jeremy had committed the murders using  nothing more than jealousy, gossip and suspicion.

   A seems most likely ::)

If - a big 'if' - it can be show that they intentionally introduced false evidence, then regardless of the reason, and irrespective of Jeremy's guilt, the people responsible must go to prison.  It is an offence against justice.

Offline gringo

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Re: The Baffling Mystery Of The Blood In The Silencer
« Reply #53 on: July 23, 2020, 07:17:PM »
If - a big 'if' - it can be show that they intentionally introduced false evidence, then regardless of the reason, and irrespective of Jeremy's guilt, the people responsible must go to prison.  It is an offence against justice.
   There is no doubt that they had motive to frame Jeremy.
    The land deal with Neville discussed at length on this forum as well as CT videos explaining those deals.
Jeremy was unaware of these deals which would have been a huge quandary for the relatives were Jeremy to inherit.

Offline Adam

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Re: The Baffling Mystery Of The Blood In The Silencer
« Reply #54 on: July 23, 2020, 07:37:PM »
The relatives had access to WHF as Bamber was on holiday.

They went looking for evidence while Basil Cock & Barbara Wilson were present. The relatives were suspicious.

They found a silencer with blood & paint on. This silencer can be attached to the murder weapon.

They handed the silencer in. It may be crime scene evidence or nothing relevant.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2020, 07:39:PM by Adam »
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline JackieD

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Re: The Baffling Mystery Of The Blood In The Silencer
« Reply #55 on: July 23, 2020, 07:45:PM »
Absolutely 100% about Justice
There is not a single person here who knows what happened that night at Whitehouse Farm but there is and never has been proof of Jeremy’s guilt
Julie Mugford the main prosecution witness was guilty of numerous crimes, 13 separate cheque frauds, robbery, and drug dealing and also making a deal with a national newspaper before trial that if she could convince a jury her ex boyfriend was guilty of five murders she would receive £25,000

Offline JackieD

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Re: The Baffling Mystery Of The Blood In The Silencer
« Reply #56 on: July 23, 2020, 07:46:PM »
The relatives had access to WHF as Bamber was on holiday.

They went looking for evidence while Basil Cock & Barbara Wilson were present. The relatives were suspicious.

They found a silencer with blood & paint on. This silencer can be attached to the murder weapon.

They handed the silencer in. It may be crime scene evidence or nothing relevant.

Dream on Adam
Julie Mugford the main prosecution witness was guilty of numerous crimes, 13 separate cheque frauds, robbery, and drug dealing and also making a deal with a national newspaper before trial that if she could convince a jury her ex boyfriend was guilty of five murders she would receive £25,000

guest29835

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Re: The Baffling Mystery Of The Blood In The Silencer
« Reply #57 on: July 23, 2020, 07:48:PM »
   There is no doubt that they had motive to frame Jeremy.
    The land deal with Neville discussed at length on this forum as well as CT videos explaining those deals.
Jeremy was unaware of these deals which would have been a huge quandary for the relatives were Jeremy to inherit.

In international law, there is the concept of intérêts vitaux, meaning 'vital interests' that a sovereign state seeks to exclude from normal legal assessments of its actions.  An example might be a state entering into a treaty to abide by certain widely-recognised human rights standards, but to exclude from any ensuing requirements an obligation to adhere to these standards where, for instance, national security is at stake.

If we take that concept as analogy and try to apply it to this situation, it could be that people who are otherwise normally honest and decent by community standards may - I only say may - be tempted to depart from those standards when they reason that there is an intérêts vitaux at stake: a vital interest.  In doing so, you might say they are acting as their own sovereign - as if they are above or outside the law and normal community standards.

That mentality is often what leads otherwise honest and respectable people into criminal behaviour.  An accountant who steals money to justify paying school fees, for instance.  A vital interest.

I am not suggesting that the Boutflours and Eatons were/are as honest as the day is long - they may be, for all know, but I haven't made their acquaintance - but the point is that we can assume them to be honest in the sense that normal, ordinary and average people are, and we can still say that they could, under the right exigencies, act dishonestly.

The same applies to practically anybody.

Practically anybody could fall into dishonesty under the right pressures.  I would theorise - and this is only my thoughts on the subject - that in the case of otherwise honest people, those pressures will tend to be vital interests.

Were there vital interests at stake here for the Boutflours and Eatons?

Possibly.  Maybe.  We need to be careful not to fall into the same traps that the 'pro-guilt' people do in reverse and make sweeping assumptions.

The matter requires further investigation and careful thought, not glib generalisations based on half-the-truth.

Is there specific proof that had Jeremy Bamber inherited the Boutflours and Eatons would have been significantly financially compromised?

Can we verify what Jeremy's intentions were at the time, assuming the original police investigation under Taff Jones had taken its course?

Surely Jeremy could and would have just worked something out with his relatives, under the advice of his solicitor?

Offline Adam

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Re: The Baffling Mystery Of The Blood In The Silencer
« Reply #58 on: July 23, 2020, 07:51:PM »
Dream on Adam

Do you believe the relatives or police fabricated the silencer. Or was it a joint effort?
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

guest29835

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Re: The Baffling Mystery Of The Blood In The Silencer
« Reply #59 on: July 23, 2020, 07:56:PM »
Do you believe the relatives or police fabricated the silencer. Or was it a joint effort?

Joint enterprise, with Crispy as the linchpin.  He was a bossy, devious little bugger, that barking mutt.