What Happened In The Kitchen?

[Adam]

The problem with you (and to be fair to you it's some other posters here as well) is that you lack a general overview of any given situation, but pinpoint details for which often you do have a case but which by themselves are insufficient to convince a sceptical audience and do not tally with the information available in the round. Part of the reason I read the books associated with the case (is egap1's thread Murder/Suicide at White House Farm possibly the best on the Forum?) is that some of them give footnotes to the sources, as well as giving an insight into the minds of the major characters in the drama, which is lacking in the dry-as -dust documents you and others often peruse.

To answer your question directly: Michael Horsnell gave a witness statement on 23rd September 1985.

Reading QCChevalier posts has made me consider that Nevill was running to the kitchen door. He also confirmed this door had a key in. Which Bamber could have taken out pre shooting. Resulting in the kitchen fight. Unless Bamber had already caught up with Nevill.

He also made me consider Nevill could have been running to the office den. Although I suspect the gun cupboard was underneath the stairs.

All other points raised have made no impact to the straight forward process of the massacre which matches the evidence.

[guest29835]

It shows that Sheila would not hear the upstairs shots in other rooms. Even if awake. I could barely hear it with the sound up. The acoustics would not change that.

It does not show that at all.  I'm sorry but I just think you're wrong.  Of course, you may be right for the wrong reasons - i.e. it may turn out that the particular weapon used and silencer does have a similarly unobtrusive report, but personally I doubt it, and anyway, the point is that the question has to be properly tested, we can't just rely on YouTube videos that capture tests that take place outdoors. 

I have already outlined that the test would need to be indoors in an environment with similar acoustic properties.  I remain astonished that this was not done for the jury at the 1986 trial.

[guest29835]

Reading QCChevalier posts has made me consider that Nevill was running to the kitchen door. He also confirmed this door had a key in. Which Bamber could have taken out pre shooting. Resulting in the kitchen fight. Unless Bamber had already caught up with Nevill.

He also made me consider Nevill could have been running to the office den. Although I suspect the gun cupboard was underneath the stairs.

All other points raised have made no impact to the straight forward process of the massacre which matches the evidence.

I don't know how to take that Adam, but I have to say, I think our exchanges have been civil, and for me, it has been very helpful in advancing my knowledge and understanding of the case.  I don't entirely agree with you, but it would be boring if we agreed on everything.

[Steve_uk]

Reading QCChevalier posts has made me consider that Nevill was running to the kitchen door. He also confirmed this door had a key in. Which Bamber could have taken out pre shooting. Resulting in the kitchen fight. Unless Bamber had already caught up with Nevill.

He also made me consider Nevill could have been running to the office den. Although I suspect the gun cupboard was underneath the stairs.

All other points raised have made no impact to the straight forward process of the massacre which matches the evidence.

I don't think we have enough information on the layout of the Farm to analyse Nevill's movements, nor can we second guess the movements of an individual who would have been in shock.

[Steve_uk]

I'm very sorry, but this has got to stop.  I don't have an 'argument'.  I don't have any loyalty to Jeremy Bamber or the authorities.  I am neutral.  If I find a point that goes against Jeremy Bamber, I will highlight it. 

The difficulty here is yours in that your approach to the case is fundamentally emotional rather than intellectual. 

You just can't accept any rigorous testing of the case, and when somebody does try, then you jump in and accuse them of bad faith.

It's got to stop. You need to grow up, Steve.  If you can't, then I'm just going to stop commenting here and I'll just stick to reading the threads and archive.

And if you have a copy of the statement of Michael Horsnell, post it up, or tell us your source.

The source is Carol Ann Lee's book. I don't care whether you post or not. The Forum was fine before you arrived, you have enhanced it in some of your posts, but if you left the Forum it would survive without you.

[JackieD]

This post is a hoot. I suppose we have to be grateful that:

i) Jackie has not cut and pasted anything here (at least not yet).

ii) Jackie hasn't quoted or mentioned Mark Williams-Thomas at all here.

iii) She hasn't claimed in this thread that Warwick Hislop's testimony has finally solved the case.

Everyone here cuts and pastes parts of the case

I know you hate MWT because he had a ticket waiting to go to Canada to interview your friend
I know Mark and I like him and why does it wind you up so much.
Mark contacted me not the other way around

The only time I have mentioned a friend of mine Warwick is because he knew Neville well and Jeremy and ?

[JackieD]

The source is Carol Ann Lee's book. I don't care whether you post or not. The Forum was fine before you arrived, you have enhanced it in some of your posts, but if you left the Forum it would survive without you.

Carol Anne Lees book?? The desperate author that leaks false information to the press
She’s a disgrace. As desperate for cash as your mate

[Adam]

I don't think we have enough information on the layout of the Farm to analyse Nevill's movements, nor can we second guess the movements of an individual who would have been in shock.

Nevill was shot 4 times upstairs. Then ran to the kitchen.The evidence shows it can be nothing else.

Nevill may have had a few feet head start. Bamber would have known he was out of bullets & stepped back as Nevill rose. Then maybe hesitated, Nevill going downstairs was not part of the plan
 
Nevill being injured & bare footed would have soon been caught. Or he was trapped as Bamber had taken out the kitchen door key. Either way, the violent kitchen fight was about to take place.

[Steve_uk]

Nevill was shot 4 times upstairs. Then ran to the kitchen.The evidence shows it can be nothing else.

Nevill may have had a few feet head start. Bamber would have known he was out of bullets & stepped back as Nevill rose. Then maybe hesitated, Nevill going downstairs was not part of the plan
 
Nevill being injured & bare footed would have soon been caught. Or he was trapped as Bamber had taken out the kitchen door key. Either way, the violent kitchen fight was about to take place.

That's interesting Adam. I suppose it was supposed to look like Nevill had used the blue telephone in the office with the memory facility, so Police would check and see the Bourtree Cottage number flash up, though this was unintentionally scuppered when a Police Officer used the same telephone for official business that morning, thus erasing the record.

[Steve_uk]

Carol Anne Lees book?? The desperate author that leaks false information to the press
She’s a disgrace. As desperate for cash as your mate

It's a witness statement Jackie, not tabloid gossip.

[guest29835]

If the silencer made the rifle silent/near-silent, then why does Jeremy only shoot the twins twice in the first firing round?  If firing multiple times into the poor twins was part of Jeremy's staging to make it look like Sheila did it, then why not fire more there and then before going downstairs to reload?  After all, the rifle is silent, you say, so what would he have to worry about?

Also, since the rifle is silent, and given Jeremy's precision shots into the twins, how does Nevill end up outside the master bedroom and fleeing for the kitchen?  Adults are larger targets than children and both Nevill and June were in bed, having not been disturbed by the silent killer prowling around the house.  Whichever way you look at it, they're sitting ducks.  What's the problem?

[guest29835]

Nevill was shot 4 times upstairs. Then ran to the kitchen.The evidence shows it can be nothing else.

Nevill may have had a few feet head start. Bamber would have known he was out of bullets & stepped back as Nevill rose. Then maybe hesitated, Nevill going downstairs was not part of the plan
 
Nevill being injured & bare footed would have soon been caught. Or he was trapped as Bamber had taken out the kitchen door key. Either way, the violent kitchen fight was about to take place.

To be honest, I'd simply assumed that Nevill running downstairs was not part of the plan.  I can't imagine that Jeremy would let him run out the master bedroom on purpose.  It may also be that this was what triggered Jeremy's idea for the phone call, in order to explain why Nevill's body was in the kitchen, or that may be down to something else.

The sticking point is how Nevill was able to escape the master bedroom and why Jeremy is putting five bullets into June instead of stopping Nevill.  Even if you are right about Jeremy running out of ammunition, I would differ to you in the explanation.  Jeremy was clearly firing at Nevill from the landing, and this would explain why Nevill didn't then turn and fight Jeremy when it became clear he had run out of ammunition: Nevill was already on his way down the stairs.  To that extent, the theory is coherent. 

But you also still have the problem that there is very little blood along the path you say Nevill took, and I don't really understand why Nevill only made it to the kitchen and didn't try to ring 999: he wasn't injured in the legs and he had one arm available to make a call.  Maybe that was ambitious, but then why not make it to the back door and leave blood in the back hallway?  Why not barricade himself in the den?  In my view, the time-and-motion doesn't favour Jeremy catching him.

[Steve_uk]

If the silencer made the rifle silent/near-silent, then why does Jeremy only shoot the twins twice in the first firing round?  If firing multiple times into the poor twins was part of Jeremy's staging to make it look like Sheila did it, then why not fire more there and then before going downstairs to reload?  After all, the rifle is silent, you say, so what would he have to worry about?

Also, since the rifle is silent, and given Jeremy's precision shots into the twins, how does Nevill end up outside the master bedroom and fleeing for the kitchen?  Adults are larger targets than children and both Nevill and June were in bed, having not been disturbed by the silent killer prowling around the house.  Whichever way you look at it, they're sitting ducks.  What's the problem?

The twins are out of the way with one bullet each, not running around the confines of the Farm complicating matters. Jeremy has removed the bedroom telephone lifeline, which really is the giveaway in all this. I don't know whether Pamela was in the habit of telephoning at 10:00pm but it seems awfully late for a farming community, and wouldn't June have preferred to take the call in bed rather than standing up in the kitchen?

The point I repeat about Nevill being moved out of the bedroom is that if he supposed to have telephoned Jeremy for assistance he has to have moved out of the master bedroom or Jeremy replaces a telephone in that room before returning to Bourtree Cottage.

[guest29835]

To be honest, I'd simply assumed that Nevill running downstairs was not part of the plan.  I can't imagine that Jeremy would let him run out the master bedroom on purpose.  It may also be that this was what triggered Jeremy's idea for the phone call, in order to explain why Nevill's body was in the kitchen, or that may be down to something else.

The sticking point is how Nevill was able to escape the master bedroom and why Jeremy is putting five bullets into June instead of stopping Nevill.  Even if you are right about Jeremy running out of ammunition, I would differ to you in the explanation.  Jeremy was clearly firing at Nevill from the landing, and this would explain why Nevill didn't then turn and fight Jeremy when it became clear he had run out of ammunition: Nevill was already on his way down the stairs.  To that extent, the theory is coherent. 

But you also still have the problem that there is very little blood along the path you say Nevill took, and I don't really understand why Nevill only made it to the kitchen and didn't try to ring 999: he wasn't injured in the legs and he had one arm available to make a call.  Maybe that was ambitious, but then why not make it to the back door and leave blood in the back hallway?  Why not barricade himself in the den?  In my view, the time-and-motion doesn't favour Jeremy catching him.

Actually, I'd like to re-phrase that last remark of mine.

In my view, the time-and-motion favours one of two outcomes of 'the chase':

(i). Jeremy catches Nevill before they reach the kitchen.
(ii). Jeremy doesn't catch Nevill and Nevill reaches the back door or the den or maybe the kitchen phone to make the call.

Which applies depends on how much of a head start Nevill has on Jeremy.  Nevill has the advantage, for several reasons - the steepness and narrowness of the stairs, the awkwardness for Jeremy of carrying a long rifle down the stairs, the fact that Nevill is motivated to escape and (we assume) has no leg injuries at this point.

The flaw, as I see it, is this:

If we accept (i), then Jeremy must catch him before they reach the kitchen.  Now, it could be that this is what really happened and Jeremy dragged him or cajoled him to the kitchen, but why is there almost no blood and signs of struggle on the main stairway and in the main foyer, other than two isolated blood spots?  We simply can't put that down to the police missing it because the police were observant enough to find the blood they found.

If we accept that Jeremy doesn't catch him and we consider (ii), then we're left with what I consider to be a paradox: Jeremy has failed to catch him, but somehow does catch up with him in the kitchen.  That's strange, isn't it?  It doesn't quite cohere.

It suggests that Nevill, for some reason, has hesitated in the kitchen.  I would have thought the obvious reason would be the phone, but there's no blood on the phone.  So what was he doing?  Why didn't he just run to the back door, then on realising that was locked, run to the den?  He knew the house.

Is it that he got to the back door, realised that was locked, and ended up going back in the kitchen?  Maybe, but why is there no blood in the back hallway?

[Adam]

The twins are out of the way with one bullet each, not running around the confines of the Farm complicating matters. Jeremy has removed the bedroom telephone lifeline, which really is the giveaway in all this. I don't know whether Pamela was in the habit of telephoning at 10:00pm but it seems awfully late for a farming community, and wouldn't June have preferred to take the call in bed rather than standing up in the kitchen?

The point I repeat about Nevill being moved out of the bedroom is that if he supposed to have telephoned Jeremy for assistance he has to have moved out of the master bedroom or Jeremy replaces a telephone in that room before returning to Bourtree Cottage.

Bamber may have also been going for an 11 shot massacre. But emptied the rifle when Nevill rose.

Even if he wasn't, as you said, one shot each into the twins negates them both & he can return later. He then has a short distance to the main bedroom.

If Bamber was going to fire mulfiple bullets in one room first, then go downstairs to reload, it would have been the main bedroom, not the twins room.

As it happened he did fire multiple bullets in the main bedroom in the opening salvo. After negating the twins.