What Happened In The Kitchen?

[guest29835]

Adam quite reasonably asks me why I am sceptical regarding DI Cook's deductions about bullet choreography.  To be clear, I am not questioning DI Cook's integrity or competence.  I'm simply suggesting that he and his colleagues may have made a mistake - which we all do from time-to-time. 

Here's why:

(i). I gather that there was almost no discernible blood trail between the main landing and the kitchen, aside from two isolated spots of blood - respectively, on the main stairway wall and the jamb between the kitchen and the main foyer.

(ii). Poor old Nevill suffered eight gunshot wounds.  I am open to correction on this, but my understanding is that of these, only two were non-head shots. 

What this evidence is telling me is that Nevill was not shot four times upstairs.  I don't doubt that Nevill was shot outside the kitchen.  Probably he was shot at least once upstairs - most likely it was on the main landing rather than in the master bedroom (perhaps with the perpetrator firing from the vantage point of the master bedroom while Nevill is on the landlng) - and then he is also shot on the main stairway.

As an aside, my personal view is that the shot to Nevill on the main stairway may have been with Nevill going up the stairs rather than down - if so, the prosecution have problems.  But we'll skip that point.  For present purposes, let's keep it simple and assume that Nevill is shot on the main stairway with the perpetrator behind him, meaning Nevill is heading down the stairs for the kitchen.

With that preamble, let's get down to the business I want to address: If Nevill was shot upstairs at all, never mind four times, then the following is happening:

(i). He is in pain.
(ii). He is in shock.
(iii). He is bleeding.
(iv). He is touching his own wounds and getting blood on his hands and fingers.

On top of this, if we accept what the Crown say, we think Nevill is shot in the head while he is somewhere upstairs.  Perhaps the shot to Nevill's head at this stage is to the jaw/mouth area, which might - might - not incapacitate him, but we need to account for one more head region shot.  The problem for the prosecution seems obvious to me.  It is of course possible that DI Cook was correct and there was one more head shot at this stage that didn't incapacitate Nevill, but it seems to me rather unlikely.

But let's stick to the Crown's choreography for now.  Nevill has been shot upstairs and he is on the main stairway.  Then we say Nevill runs to the kitchen.  Why?  Myself and Adam have been discussing this on another thread.  I think I have shown that Nevill could not have made a 999 call, given the evidence available (though, importantly, it does not follow from this that he didn't intend to and try to reach the phone).  Following further discussions with Adam, I am also satisfied that it is at least plausible that Nevill was running for the back door (i.e. the side door on the 'white' side of the house) in the belief that the key was in it and he could make an escape.  He would be going out into the night barefoot and in pyjamas, so it's not a perfect theory, but let's remember that he was fleeing an armed lunatic in the middle of the night and didn't have much time for carefully-considered thought.  Maybe he had it in mind to flee and try to rouse somebody in the nearby farm cottages. 

Here's where I see a problem with it: the lampshade.  We're told the glass lampshade in the kitchen was broken and shattered.  The background to this is that the prosecution and people who hold to Jeremy being guilty have always maintained there was a struggle in the kitchen.  This has been thought to be a point against Jeremy on the basis that Nevill would easily overcome Sheila.

The problems with this theory are:

(a). We are asked to believe that Nevill had been shot four times before even reaching the kitchen, including twice in the head region, but then we have him struggling with Jeremy. 

(b). The blood distribution in the kitchen doesn't cohere with Nevill attempting to transit the kitchen to flee.  For instance, why are there three blood prints on the worktop? 

(c). Following on from (b) above, given that there are blood prints on the worktop, how come, at the very least, there is no blood on the kitchen phone very near it, if not also a recorded 999 call from Nevill?

(d). Adam tells us - and I accept this is plausible (I am not being disrespectful) - that Nevill wasn't running for the phone, but to flee via the kitchen out the back door.  So where does the struggle fit into that?  How come the lampshade is shattered?

One possibility, which we'll park for now, is that Adam is correct and Jeremy staged the scene by breaking the lampshade, etc., in order to give the impression of a fight or struggle between Nevill and Sheila.

Now let's compare and contrast.  Let's see if the above issues can be resolved by making Sheila the killer rather than Jeremy.  Interestingly, they can.

Jeremy need not struggle with Nevill if he has a gun, he would just shoot him, but we've already seen the problems with that scenario. 

But Sheila would struggle with Nevill because she is not necessarily intending to kill anybody, she is just going crazy with the gun.  Nevill would be trying to get the gun off her.  One can imagine a scenario in which the lampshade is broken and shattered.  Nevill would not be shot upstairs at all - there is no conclusive evidence to say he was anyway - he would be shot once as he ascends the stairs approaching Sheila, then Sheila pursues him back to the kitchen where he intends to round on her and wrestle the gun off her, but she manages to keep the weapon and she fires seven more times into Nevill.

This is consistent with almost-all the evidence, with one exception: the position of the ejected bullet cartridge casings as found and recorded at the scene.  The question arises: Is it possible that the other evidence could override the casing positions?  Or is there an explanation for the apparent paradoxy in the crime scene?  Should we instead accept the recorded casing positions on their face and assume that Jeremy staged the kitchen scene to make it look like a struggle between Nevill and Sheila?  If we do accept this, then how do we reconcile this with the forensic evidence and ordinary common-sense?

[Steve_uk]

Jeremy would have watched the family routine on the Sunday and Monday night, establishing that the twins would be in bed by 7pm following their bath, with Sheila following shortly afterwards, her lethargy ever evident. Remember he has to pick an occasion when the whole family is under one roof, when the Bambers don't have ready access to a telephone, when the main obstacle to his plans had been ill for some time and would be tired after harvesting the whole day.

What happened in the kitchen? Impossible to know for sure, but remember Jeremy has to make it look as if Nevill did call him at some stage, so no use leaving him dead in the master bedroom sans telephone. Similarly with Sheila: he can't have her dead in bed (let's say his plan was a single gunshot to the head) as the twins were found if she's supposed to have turned into Lynda Carter Wonder Woman for an hour or so of this drama.

Jeremy incapacitates the twins first, with one gunshot each to the head. He can come back to them later to hone his artistry. He then moves into the master bedroom, where Nevill and June are sleeping. Adrenaline has taken over now and he's shooting randomly at this stage, surprisingly not targeting Nevill first as the blood in the bed confirms. For the Jeremy is guilty contingent the confirmatory feature is that none of the initial shots (nor any of them discharged that morning) missed their target, ruling out a Sheila in psychosis, when in that state she was totally unaware of any other person's thoughts or actions, and totally unable to function normally, save a few fist beatings against the wall, an outlet offering momentary relief for pent-up frustration of mental illness.

June has been pinned to the bed now, one shot hitting the right side of the head and passing through the pillow. But Nevill manages to rise up from bed, though Jeremy shoots him however many times with the remainder before having to reload.

Have you got that Bamberettes? A lethargic, schizophrenic poorly-coordinated young woman who couldn't drive a car has to reload the Anschutz at least twice, and more importantly has to be allowed the opportunity by Nevill so to do.

It's not clear whether Jeremy chased Nevill down the stairs or vice versa, but remember Nevill told Barbara he had a premonition of a shooting accident so he too is running on adrenaline as more likely he descends the stairs first with Jeremy in pursuit. Jeremy has stuffed his pockets with bullets and manages to target Nevill once more in a downward trajectory on the stairwell, leaving Type O blood on the wallpaper in the hallway. Nevill's hands are bloodied as he hurtles into the kitchen, realizing he won't have enough time to make a telephone call, though speaks from the grave as his bloodied fingerprints are left on the blue and white chequered worktop and he removes his watch, kicking it under the rug as a signal to who the perpetrator was, the same person who had stolen two Cartier watches from an Antipodean jeweller three years previously.

Nevill turns to face his attacker and manages to get a hand on the murder weapon. A tussle ensues in which Nevill, given his height advantage, is able to lift the Anschutz with one arm to light fitting level and the shade is smashed. The gun with silencer attached is unwieldy and also scrapes the side of the mantelpiece, depositing slivers of red paint thereon.

Jeremy is now totally absorbed in the crime and relishes the final moments. Here is the master, the wizard businessman, the paterfamilias who despatched him to spend eight long years of purgatory in a student dormitory for what purpose, for this purpose as he succumbs to the final humiliation as his head receives the last bullet discharge and is bashed vindictively by the rifle stock, red striped pyjamas fall to his ankles, the ultimate violation of a man who for all his faults still remained loyal given the onslaught from the outside world, faithful in his last will and testament and trusting that his son would relent to fulfil the farming duties for which he was brought to the Farm twenty-four years ago.

[guest29835]

remember Jeremy has to make it look as if Nevill did call him at some stage, so no use leaving him dead in the master bedroom sans telephone. 

Not true, and I've noticed that even the Court of Appeal repeats this canard, but the simple point is that the claimed phone call does not involve Nevill reporting himself as injured and it need not. 

[Adam]

There is no reason why Bamber would stage the kitchen to make it look like Sheila had been in a struggle with Nevill.

There was a violent kitchen fight between Nevill & Bamber. Resulting in the upturned furniture and  Nevill's horrific injuries.

The smashed lampshade and aga scratches happened while Nevill and Bamber wrestled for the rifle.

[Adam]

Nevill was shot 4 times upstairs. At the same time June was shot.

Bamber shot June in several locations. To try to show an erratic Sheila. With Nevill he would have wanted 4 head shots, but only managed two.

[Steve_uk]

Not true, and I've noticed that even the Court of Appeal repeats this canard, but the simple point is that the claimed phone call does not involve Nevill reporting himself as injured and it need not.

It's not a canard. If Nevill is found dead under the covers with (say) bullets passing through his head and the pillow behind how can he possibly have made the telephone call to his son requesting help when the bedroom telephone has been removed?

[guest29835]

It's not a canard. If Nevill is found dead under the covers with (say) bullets passing through his head and the pillow behind how can he possibly have made the telephone call to his son requesting help when the bedroom telephone has been removed?

Because Nevill phoned him before the shooting started, or as the shooting started, as I've just said.

Jeremy's detractors, and the courts, have taken it upon themselves to assume that Nevill could only call after the shooting started, but why must that be the case?  It's entirely plausible for Nevill to call before Sheila starts shooting.  Why is it assumed otherwise?  Has Jeremy himself ever said otherwise? 

There is no blood on the upstairs phone or in the upstairs office and there is no blood trail to the kitchen (a problem for the prosecution that none of you seem able to explain).

The idea that Nevill would casually ring Jeremy after being shot four times, including twice in the head, has to be considered a fairy story - a canard, advanced to suit the prosecution argument in that it makes Jeremy's defence seem implausible.

[guest29835]

There is no reason why Bamber would stage the kitchen to make it look like Sheila had been in a struggle with Nevill.

There was a violent kitchen fight between Nevill & Bamber. Resulting in the upturned furniture and  Nevill's horrific injuries.

The smashed lampshade and aga scratches happened while Nevill and Bamber wrestled for the rifle.

It seems to me you keep having to change your story to suit.  First you tell us that Nevill was running for the exit and Jeremy stopped him.  Now it's Jeremy and Nevill in a struggle.  Those two things are incompatible and make no sense in the context of four shots into Nevill upstairs.  Why does Jeremy need to struggle with Nevill at all? 

Doesn't a struggle, if it happened, point to Sheila?  She would hesitate about killing her father and her father would hesitate about dialling 999, and he would also be hesitant about being physically decisive with her.  One can imagine them returning to the kitchen, Sheila shouting and screaming, they are then struggling, the lampshade smashes, Nevill is trying to wrestle the gun off her.  Normally he would prevail, but he is injured and his powers fade; she pushes him away, and fires.

[Adam]

It seems to me you keep having to change your story to suit.  First you tell us that Nevill was running for the exit and Jeremy stopped him.  Now it's Jeremy and Nevill in a struggle.  Those two things are incompatible and make no sense in the context of four shots into Nevill upstairs.  Why does Jeremy need to struggle with Nevill at all? 

Doesn't a struggle, if it happened, point to Sheila?  She would hesitate about killing her father and her father would hesitate about dialling 999, and he would also be hesitant about being physically decisive with her.  One can imagine them returning to the kitchen, Sheila shouting and screaming, they are then struggling, the lampshade smashes, Nevill is trying to wrestle the gun off her.  Normally he would prevail, but he is injured and his powers fade; she pushes him away, and fires.

Nevill ran to the kitchen after being shot 4 times upstairs. Bamber caught up with him & there was a violent fight.

Keep digging.

[guest29835]

Nevill ran to the kitchen after being shot 4 times upstairs. Bamber caught up with him & there was a violent fight.

Keep digging.

So why doesn't Jeremy just shoot him?  Why does a struggle happen at all?  And why does Jeremy then change his mind and shoot him?  And why run that risk of having the gun wrestled off him?

You're saying he is running for the exit, despite being a 61 year old man who has been shot four times, including twice in the head.  He's in his pyjamas and he's barefoot.  Is that likely?  Even if we accept the possibility, why the struggle?  It's illogical.

Maybe Jeremy was chasing him across the kitchen and that's how the lampshade broke, but the kitchen isn't large enough to allow for that scenario, and again, Jeremy would just shoot him, he wouldn't pursue him.  Indeed, that's your own premise here: that Nevill never made it out of the kitchen because Jeremy had a gun, yet you now inconsistently (even contradictorily) posit that they struggled.  Why?

Maybe Jeremy had to pursue him because Nevill had opened the door between the kitchen and the back hallway, which opens into the kitchen.  But then, why isn't there blood on that door?

I think we are running into problems here.

Maybe Nevill was going for the phone, as that's instinctive whatever his injuries were.  However, the problem is there's no blood on the phone.

Maybe Jeremy caught up with him in the kitchen just as he'd reached the worktop and that's when he shot him.  This is just about possible, but if there's blood on the worktop near the phone, why isn't there blood on the phone? We also have the problem of how Nevill gets to the other side of the kitchen.  A struggle would explain it, but a struggle is illogical for the reasons already explained.  There is no reason for Jeremy to risk a struggle to position Nevill in one particular part of the kitchen.  Possibly Nevill crawls to the other side of the kitchen trying vainly to get away from Jeremy, or Jeremy drags him there for some reason while holding the gun and that's why the lampshade was broken; but in the latter case, we're back to why Jeremy would want to do that. 

Not that I am saying Jeremy is innocent, but I do find a Sheila scenario much easier to explain given the evidence.

[David1819]

While Sheila took the gun upstairs to shoot June. Nevill rang Jeremy. Nevil ended the call and ran upstairs as he heard shots being fired. Sheila had fired five shots at June. She then pivoted and shot Nevill with the remaining four bullets in the magazine as Nevill came up the stairs.

Nevill retreated the to the kitchen and then collapsed where his body was later found. Sheila then wacked him with the rife. Before reloading to shoot him another four times in the head.

[guest29835]

While Sheila took the gun upstairs to shoot June. Nevill rang Jeremy. Nevil ended the call and ran upstairs as he heard shots being fired. Sheila had fired five shots at June. She then pivoted and shot Nevill with the remaining four bullets in the magazine as Nevill came up the stairs.

Nevill retreated the to the kitchen and then collapsed where his body was later found. Sheila then wacked him with the rife. Before reloading to shoot him another four times in the head.

Thanks David.  I think your explanation of the Sheila-Nevill encounter on the stairs is superior to mine, but my explanation of the initial kitchen confrontation is better.

In my scenario I have Nevill and Sheila at stand-off in the kitchen.  Sheila is screaming and shouting, etc. (maybe the lampshade gets broken at this point).  Nevill now decides to ring Jeremy, while Sheila is there.  Jeremy takes a long time to answer.  When he does, as soon as Nevill starts talking into the phone, Sheila is haring off upstairs, which is why Nevill ends the calls or puts the receiver down [the telephonic mechanics of that will need to be ironed out on another thread].

As I say, your explanation of what happens next on the stairs is superior.

I differ from you about what happened in the kitchen.  I think Nevill struggles with her, the context of that being that Sheila has only actually fired the gun once up to that point, so we have him trying to wrestle the gun off her, but she is able to push him away and Nevill is killed in a fusillade. 

I take the view that almost-all the evidence points to this, with the except of the recorded position of the bullet casings.

[David1819]

Thanks David.  I think your explanation of the Sheila-Nevill encounter on the stairs is superior to mine, but my explanation of the initial kitchen confrontation is better.

In my scenario I have Nevill and Sheila at stand-off in the kitchen.  Sheila is screaming and shouting, etc. (maybe the lampshade gets broken at this point).  Nevill now decides to ring Jeremy, while Sheila is there.  Jeremy takes a long time to answer.  When he does, as soon as Nevill starts talking into the phone, Sheila is haring off upstairs, which is why Nevill ends the calls or puts the receiver down [the telephonic mechanics of that will need to be ironed out on another thread].

As I say, your explanation of what happens next on the stairs is superior.

I differ from you about what happened in the kitchen.  I think Nevill struggles with her, the context of that being that Sheila has only actually fired the gun once up to that point, so we have him trying to wrestle the gun off her, but she is able to push him away and Nevill is killed in a fusillade. 

I take the view that almost-all the evidence points to this, with the except of the recorded position of the bullet casings.

The pathologist stated that one of the Shots Nevil received upstairs to his arm made it impossible to use that arm. Wrestling is out the question.

[guest29835]

The pathologist stated that one of the Shots Nevil received upstairs to his arm made it impossible to use that arm. Wrestling is out the question.

I don't quite make the same deduction that you do.  It was two shots to the left arm/shoulder, which must have immobilised the arm.  The deduction from there depends on where we think the bullet casings should be as opposed where they found.  In my scenario, he is shot once on the stairs, in the shoulder, which makes sense for a shot from above.  This doesn't necessarily immobilise the arm, but even if you're right and it does, it needn't preclude a physical struggle in the kitchen - it merely explains more fully why Sheila prevailed. 

I suppose that means we both come to the same conclusion, but for slightly different reasons.  I accept that one problem with my scenario is that it is rather unlikely that the police would accidentally displace more than one bullet casing upstairs.  I am suggesting they displaced maybe two.  You seem to be implying they displaced one.  I must admit that suggests your version of the scenario is more likely.  Still, as I say, if he was shot twice upstairs/on the stairs, the scenario still gels overall; in fact your version makes a struggle with Sheila prevailing much more likely if anything.

[Adam]

So why doesn't Jeremy just shoot him?  Why does a struggle happen at all?  And why does Jeremy then change his mind and shoot him?  And why run that risk of having the gun wrestled off him?

You're saying he is running for the exit, despite being a 61 year old man who has been shot four times, including twice in the head.  He's in his pyjamas and he's barefoot.  Is that likely?  Even if we accept the possibility, why the struggle?  It's illogical.

Maybe Jeremy was chasing him across the kitchen and that's how the lampshade broke, but the kitchen isn't large enough to allow for that scenario, and again, Jeremy would just shoot him, he wouldn't pursue him.  Indeed, that's your own premise here: that Nevill never made it out of the kitchen because Jeremy had a gun, yet you now inconsistently (even contradictorily) posit that they struggled.  Why?

Maybe Jeremy had to pursue him because Nevill had opened the door between the kitchen and the back hallway, which opens into the kitchen.  But then, why isn't there blood on that door?

I think we are running into problems here.

Maybe Nevill was going for the phone, as that's instinctive whatever his injuries were.  However, the problem is there's no blood on the phone.

Maybe Jeremy caught up with him in the kitchen just as he'd reached the worktop and that's when he shot him.  This is just about possible, but if there's blood on the worktop near the phone, why isn't there blood on the phone? We also have the problem of how Nevill gets to the other side of the kitchen.  A struggle would explain it, but a struggle is illogical for the reasons already explained.  There is no reason for Jeremy to risk a struggle to position Nevill in one particular part of the kitchen.  Possibly Nevill crawls to the other side of the kitchen trying vainly to get away from Jeremy, or Jeremy drags him there for some reason while holding the gun and that's why the lampshade was broken; but in the latter case, we're back to why Jeremy would want to do that. 

Not that I am saying Jeremy is innocent, but I do find a Sheila scenario much easier to explain given the evidence.

Bamber did shoot him. Four times upstairs. He had no more bullets until reloading. So there was the kitchen fight.