An Alternative Theory Regarding Julie Mugford

[Steve_uk]

Do any of you seriously think that Julie really believed the hitman story?

Maybe she did.  Maybe she didn’t.  We can’t see in her head.  But is it likely?

If you accept it is unlikely she held this belief, then there are two major possibilities before us:

(i). She made it all up.

(ii). Jeremy made it all up.

Now, (ii) is effectively the same as (i), because she should have realised that Jeremy was making it up, thus she was misleading the court in any event.

That means (i) is the situation by default.  That leads us to ask a further question:

Realistically, would she have made the whole thing up on her own?

Maybe she did.  Maybe she didn’t.  Again, we can’t see in her head.  But is it likely?

I think the reasonable conclusion from all this is:

1. Her evidence did not fall within the exception to the rule against hearsay.  This is because, while she was reporting a purported confession, it was either a false confession or the confession was itself a body of fiction.

2. If we do accept her evidence on any basis at all, it is because it is evidence not of collusion between Jeremy and a third party, but of collusion between Jeremy and Julie.

Now, this may all be wrong.  It is only a theory, at most.  But wrong or not, it is logical.

This is really quite ridiculous. Julie is reporting what Jeremy told her, even if it is a month after the event. She cannot be held liable for any peculiarities or anomalies in the ghastly story.

[guest29835]

This is really quite ridiculous. Julie is reporting what Jeremy told her, even if it is a month after the event. She cannot be held liable for any peculiarities or anomalies in the ghastly story.

What Mrs Smerchanski's lawyer [see above] isn't taking into account is that, while Julie Mugford is only reporting what Jeremy told her, she took the decision to report it, which means she must have given it credence - if she believed it. 

Or maybe she didn't believe it?

Or maybe it didn't even happen?

[Steve_uk]

What Mrs Smerchanski's lawyer [see above] isn't taking into account is that, while Julie Mugford is only reporting what Jeremy told her, she took the decision to report it, which means she must have given it credence - if she believed it. 

Or maybe she didn't believe it?

Or maybe it didn't even happen?

Why must reporting a tale Jeremy told her mean that she had to believe it was true?

[guest29835]

Why must reporting a tale Jeremy told her mean that she had to believe it was true?

Why would she report it otherwise?

She clearly reported it for one of two reasons:

1. She believed it to be true.
2. She did not believe it to be true.

Either has further permutations to it.  Personally I think the answer is more likely to be 2.

[Steve_uk]

What Mrs Smerchanski's lawyer [see above] isn't taking into account is that, while Julie Mugford is only reporting what Jeremy told her, she took the decision to report it, which means she must have given it credence - if she believed it. 

Or maybe she didn't believe it?

Or maybe it didn't even happen?

No she was extricating herself finally from the Jeremy Bamber spell, under which she had fallen for the past  22 months.

[guest29835]

No she was extricating herself finally from the Jeremy Bamber spell, under which she had fallen for the past  22 months.

Thanks Mrs Smerchanski.  That must be why you spent all your time at police HQ, where Stan Jones was giving you.....coaching.  Was he giving you anything else?

[Steve_uk]

Why would she report it otherwise?

She clearly reported it for one of two reasons:

1. She believed it to be true.
2. She did not believe it to be true.

Either has further permutations to it.  Personally I think the answer is more likely to be 2.

She reported it because she realized it inculpated Jeremy, following the confession at Blazer's Restaurant, Blackheath.

[Steve_uk]

Thanks Mrs Smerchanski.  That must be why you spent all your time at police HQ, where Stan Jones was giving you.....coaching.  Was he giving you anything else?

Julie didn't need to be coached. She's a smart lady.

[guest29835]

She reported it because she realized it inculpated Jeremy, following the confession at Blazer's Restaurant, Blackheath.

A confession or an admission?  And was this in the presence of anybody else?  I think it was just to Julie, if I'm not mistaken?  Even so, were statements obtained from third parties confirming the surrounding circumstances?

Interesting that all these spillages of information are only to Julie and nobody else.  Jeremy didn't tell Brett Collins, for instance.  I'm sure the Australian would have rushed forward. 

Then 'Jerry' breaks up with Julie, apparently.  Breaks up with his confessor.  All most peculiar.

Julie didn't need to be coached. She's a smart lady.

And I'm sure she had plenty of time to perfect her statements while she was sojourned at police HQ.  No doubt she needed time to edit these truthful statements for grammatical and syntactical errors and such like.

[Steve_uk]

A confession or an admission?  And was this in the presence of anybody else?  I think it was just to Julie, if I'm not mistaken?  Even so, were statements obtained from third parties confirming the surrounding circumstances?

Interesting that all these spillages of information are only to Julie and nobody else.  Jeremy didn't tell Brett Collins, for instance.  I'm sure the Australian would have rushed forward. 

Then 'Jerry' breaks up with Julie, apparently.  Breaks up with his confessor.  All most peculiar.

And I'm sure she had plenty of time to perfect her statements while she was sojourned at police HQ.  No doubt she needed time to edit these truthful statements for grammatical and syntactical errors and such like.

I doubt Julie had any problems with the English language, being an ex-pupil of Altrincham Grammar School for Girls. There were hints to others as to what was to come: he told Charles Marsden in Autumn 1984 that if the Farm burned down everything would be his, and he had a conversation with Len Foakes that he wasn't sharing any of his inheritance with his sister, and that if anything happened he would just pack up and leave.

I'm discounting the Robert Boutflour shooting of parents incident, but there's nothing to say it didn't happen.

[Roch]

Then 'Jerry' breaks up with Julie, apparently.  Breaks up with his confessor.  All most peculiar.

It's a terrible plan for an 'inheritance killer'.  Likewise, the use of a .22 weapon designed for vermin control is a particularly risky venture, given he had to subdue three adults, any one of whom could have fought like a lion to protect the twins.  If Jeremy receives just one noticeable injury in the ensuing melee, the game is up. 

Not very believable, in my opinion.

[guest29835]

I doubt Julie had any problems with the English language, being an ex-pupil of Altrincham Grammar School for Girls.

Yes, you make a fair point.  That being the case, what did she need all that time for at police HQ?  What was she doing there?  All very strange.

There were hints to others as to what was to come: he told Charles Marsden in Autumn 1984 that if the Farm burned down everything would be his, and he had a conversation with Len Foakes that he wasn't sharing any of his inheritance with his sister, and that if anything happened he would just pack up and leave.

Yes it was rather clumsy of Jeremy to go round giving murderous hints to everybody.  Pity we don't know the context of those conversations.  Perhaps Jeremy was trying to rope poor old Charles into it all with an offer of £400.00, a meal out and a kit porsche? 

I'm discounting the Robert Boutflour shooting of parents incident, but there's nothing to say it didn't happen.

Yes, it's a shame old man Boutflour didn't share Jeremy's plans with Nevill.  Or maybe he did and that's what the sexed-up dossier was about that Barbara mentioned?  We can trust Barbara's word of course, as she had nothing against Jeremy.  Likewise, Mr Boutflour positively adored Jeremy right up until the moment that Jeremy uttered those threatening words and then he turned on him full-square 180-degrees. 

Lucky you're here to remind us all about this, Mrs Smerchanski.  It's really quite damning.

[Steve_uk]

Nevill had a premonition of his own demise, but didn't consider a total wipeout of the family.