The COVID-19 virus in the UK

[Steve_uk]

The argument is that without face coverings the weakest go to the wall first.

By the way, I hope after this pandemic has passed the cleaning stations will remain in place and as a user of public transport people will show more restraint in their sanitary habits whilst riding thereon.

[guest29835]

The argument is that without face coverings the weakest go to the wall first.

By the way, I hope after this pandemic has passed the cleaning stations will remain in place and as a user of public transport people will show more restraint in their sanitary habits whilst riding thereon.

Your "argument" falls on the government's own statistics.

'The weakest go to the wall first' is simply Nature and it is a good thing in the narrow field of disease.  Trying to shield people from infection harms the natural efficacy of the immune system we all have and is ultimately dysgenic.

You haven't addressed my point: that in order to combat Nature in the way you propose and make society sterile and safe, people can no longer lead normal lives.  We shall have to walk round wearing masks and respirators instead, or wrap ourselves up in cotton wool and hide in our houses, or else construct cities within giant hermetic domes for people like you who wish to be '100% safe' all the time.

[Steve_uk]

I should be able to walk around without someone coughing in my face and thereby giving me the virus.

By the way I've just read this: https://www.aol.co.uk/news/2020/12/31/northern-ireland-hospitals-at-capacity-as-ambulance-service-warn/

[guest29835]

I should be able to walk around without someone coughing in my face and thereby giving me the virus.

By the way I've just read this: https://www.aol.co.uk/news/2020/12/31/northern-ireland-hospitals-at-capacity-as-ambulance-service-warn/

Of course nobody should cough in your face, but that's not the point at issue, is it.

[David1819]

"UK Covid cases break another new record with 55,892 in 24 hours and 964 deaths
Almost 1,000 more people have died since yesterday"

I don't get it, how difficult can it be to stay indoors, wear a mask and wash your hands?

[Steve_uk]

Of course nobody should cough in your face, but that's not the point at issue, is it.

Well nobody is going to throw you in a prison cell or forcibly cover you with a face mask, though you may have to pay a fine. I feel rather sorry for the tram and bus drivers, who should not have to enforce the rule.  I don't want the vaccine as I'm already allergic to penicillin, as I have found out to my cost in the past. I don't think anyone is forcing me to have it, are they?

[Steve_uk]

"UK Covid cases break another new record with 55,892 in 24 hours and 964 deaths
Almost 1,000 more people have died since yesterday"

I don't get it, how difficult can it be to stay indoors, wear a mask and wash your hands?

This is what I think too David1819. It's the irresponsibility of people which has caused this virus to spread.

[guest29835]

This is what I think too David1819. It's the irresponsibility of people which has caused this virus to spread.

But Steve, the virus isn't lethal in the first place.  Obviously people should exercise responsibility.  If you're ill, don't go into work, etc., but why should the precautions, duties and obligations exceed what is ordinarily expected year-in, year-out for annual flus and colds?

Neither of you have put forward an argument as to why this illness alone requires extraordinary measures, including shutting down practically the entire economy, forcing thousands of business people into closure and bankruptcy and making people wear masks.  Why haven't we done this in years past?  And how have we survived before now?

[lookout]

A Happy New Year to All x.

I've dared to visit a supermarket 3 times since March last year, but I'm not a bit confident as I never leave the house and on entering supermarkets and seeing " people " just fills me with horror.
So far I've remained well throughout the year, although this time last year I thought I was ready for my wooden overcoat, I was so ill. I don't wish for a repeat.

As Steve pointed out, I hope the cleanliness of public transport continues as there are some filthy individuals around. I haven't been on a bus for over a year now and it'll take me a long time to use them.
Luckily my daughter takes me to wherever I want/ need to go, even then I wear two masks at a time. 

At the moment I'm " thinking " about having the vaccination. The surgery rang me completely out of the blue at the beginning of December which didn't give me time to think so I told them I'd ring back when I'm ready and have had time to think about it. Nobody could tell me at the time whether there'd be any interactions with the warfarin you see. However, the blood levels/ warfarin will be tested at the end of this month to see if all's well to go ahead with the vaccine, preferably the Astra one.

Take care everyone and stay safe, ready to do battle for another year. x

[guest29835]

"UK Covid cases break another new record with 55,892 in 24 hours and 964 deaths
Almost 1,000 more people have died since yesterday"

I don't get it, how difficult can it be to stay indoors, wear a mask and wash your hands?

The figures don't help your case.  When you drill down into them, it becomes clear this is a moderate pandemic and the extent and scope of the measures taken is completely unnecessary and overly-intrusive.

Testing - The more people are tested, the more cases.

Deaths - The government's own figures show that the mortality rate from Covid is only a fraction of one percent, and most of those cases are elderly people and/or people with co-morbidities.

I am not disputing that there is a virus and an illness.  For the purpose of this thread, I will adopt that assumption, so we won't be straying too far from mainstream opinion.  I also accept that the illness caused by the virus will be unpleasant for some people, and sadly, a small minority will die.  But unless you are proposing to abolish illness, none of that is the point. 

You have yet to demonstrate to us why a very ordinary, mild illness should command these extraordinary measures that shred civil liberties.  Why can't we just rely on mass immunity, with special measures for vulnerable sub-sets of the population and perhaps border controls?  Can you provide the argument please?

[guest29835]

This is what I think too David1819. It's the irresponsibility of people which has caused this virus to spread.

How did we survive up until 2020?  We've had viral pandemics before.  In fact, we get them every year with flu.  In 1957, a far more serious pandemic than this one was permitted to run its course.  Why didn't we lockdown our entire society for foot-and-mouth disease?  What about HIV and AIDS?  Cancer?  Cancer is, arguably, indirectly contagious through other infectious diseases.

We could drum up hysteria about anything.  How have we survived as a species until now? 

[guest29835]

Well nobody is going to throw you in a prison cell or forcibly cover you with a face mask, though you may have to pay a fine. I feel rather sorry for the tram and bus drivers, who should not have to enforce the rule.  I don't want the vaccine as I'm already allergic to penicillin, as I have found out to my cost in the past. I don't think anyone is forcing me to have it, are they?

That sentence is a contradiction.  If I can be fined for not wearing a face-covering, that means I am compelled to wear a face-covering.  I shall not be wearing a face-covering anyway, and I will refuse all fines and stand defiant in the face of this obvious tyranny.  Nevertheless, this is formal compulsion and those who support it or give moral support to it should hang their heads in shame.

It means you are infringing on my basic civil liberty and dignity as an individual for no reason other than the off-chance that you might catch a flu for which there is a maximum fatality rate of 0.5% in the general population.  On its face, that's absurd and childish.  It's like banning cars and blocking off all roads on the off-chance that somebody might get run over. 

When I cross a busy road, there is fair chance I shall get run over, if you consider the general statistics on road accidents and their causes.  That does not prompt me to demand the closure of all roads and the banning of cars.  Nor does it cause me to demand that all drivers shall be required to slow down on seeing a pedestrian walking along the pavement.  Nor do I demand that motorway drivers at night should carry night-vision grade binoculars on their person and stop every 10 yards to look for prospective pedestrians in the surrounding countryside.

My point is that there is a limit to safety.  Everybody, including me, accepts that reasonable measures and precautions are desirable, but at the same time, we have to accept that efforts to bring about complete safety can also be undesirable where they equate to tyranny and deprive each of us of moral agency.

[David1819]

Deaths - The government's own figures show that the mortality rate from Covid is only a fraction of one percent, and most of those cases are elderly people and/or people with co-morbidities.

Considering that 30% of the adult population is obese, 5% have diabetes and 1 in 2 people will have cancer at one point in our lives. A large portion of the population already have health problems. Your argument is based on a false notion that most the nation is healthly. That could not be further from the truth.

[Steve_uk]

Stay safe lookout. In answer to the above points I would only say that elderly people whether in care homes or living independently minding their own business have a right to stay safe and not to acquire a mortal illness through the irresponsible actions of younger people.

Has Sweden's approach worked or failed?  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-55347021

[guest29835]

Considering that 30% of the adult population is obese, 5% have diabetes and 1 in 2 people will have cancer at one point in our lives. A large portion of the population already have health problems. Your argument is based on a false notion that most the nation is healthly. That could not be further from the truth.

My point, which you simply don't seem to understand, is that most people with moderate or serious symptoms, or who die from it or with it, are elderly and/or have co-morbidities.  It does not follow from this that everybody with co-morbidities or who is elderly is at risk from developing a more serious manifestation of the illness, or will develop a serious form of this illness, even if infected.  One would need to study the risk and understand the fine-grained variables and take account of what the statistics say, which is that the overwhelmingly majority of those infected with this don't suffer (though I accept that in the particular case of the elderly, you would have to adjust any statistical study for variables such as high viral loads in living areas).

My argument is not based on any 'notion' other than reliance on what government statisticians record and claim, which is the infection rate is Z%, the mortality rate is X%, the morbidity rate is Y%, etc., etc.

That's apart from the point that each of us is responsible for our own health.  If you or I have issues that make us particularly vulnerable to SARS-COV 2, do we have the right to demand or expect that the rest of society should lock itself down to ensure we don't become infected?  How does a government even attempt to prevent viral infection without authoritarian measures that cause vastly greater harm than the benefit hypothesised?