Perjury that went unchallenged at trial.

[lookout]

JB can't be blamed for coercive/controlled behaviour towards JM as he was too busy flitting about from one woman to another so was never the " steady boyfriend ". It was when Sheila had moved to London that JB was beginning to feel his feet and the grass was looking a lot greener there than in the insular environment of where he was.
He'd obviously enjoyed the party atmosphere that was London and probably what went on in his mind was the continuing boredom of a relationship that was going stale.

Because of the more or less sheltered lives that both he and Sheila had led at WHF the thought of them both spreading their wings felt like a different way of life altogether which both enjoyed.
During this new found life, it was JB who'd looked after his sister, driving her home from clubs/parties. I don't know many brothers who'd look out for their sisters in this way while enjoying themselves ?

A psychopath would just let them get on with it----being void of any feelings etc and would continue to do what they wanted as is a psychopath's nature, selfish and uncaring.
We don't know the enjoyment that JB had while JM was out of sight ! if JB had had eyes for JM I'm almost certain that he would have got engaged to her, but he wasn't interested and apart from the fact that June never got on with her that relationship was fizzling out before the murders ever took place and JB was looking for a way out.

His chance came when he got that phone-call while JM was in his presence and that pretty well marked the end of the relationship.
At 24 it's not a hanging offence to end a relationship. If JB was as bad as he's been painted why was JM hanging on to him for grim death ? Why was she so furious with him and wanting to suffocate him ? 
Girls/young women are renowned for throwing all kinds of " tantrums " and acts of revenge after a split, you read about these things every day and this is exactly what JM did during her stand as a prosecution witness-----which she did very well until it came to her being questioned about the man she'd once loved and she couldn't speak through the tears after realising what she'd done !

[guest7363]

JB can't be blamed for coercive/controlled behaviour towards JM as he was too busy flitting about from one woman to another so was never the " steady boyfriend ". It was when Sheila had moved to London that JB was beginning to feel his feet and the grass was looking a lot greener there than in the insular environment of where he was.
He'd obviously enjoyed the party atmosphere that was London and probably what went on in his mind was the continuing boredom of a relationship that was going stale.

Because of the more or less sheltered lives that both he and Sheila had led at WHF the thought of them both spreading their wings felt like a different way of life altogether which both enjoyed.
During this new found life, it was JB who'd looked after his sister, driving her home from clubs/parties. I don't know many brothers who'd look out for their sisters in this way while enjoying themselves ?

A psychopath would just let them get on with it----being void of any feelings etc and would continue to do what they wanted as is a psychopath's nature, selfish and uncaring.
We don't know the enjoyment that JB had while JM was out of sight ! if JB had had eyes for JM I'm almost certain that he would have got engaged to her, but he wasn't interested and apart from the fact that June never got on with her that relationship was fizzling out before the murders ever took place and JB was looking for a way out.

His chance came when he got that phone-call while JM was in his presence and that pretty well marked the end of the relationship.
At 24 it's not a hanging offence to end a relationship. If JB was as bad as he's been painted why was JM hanging on to him for grim death ? Why was she so furious with him and wanting to suffocate him ? 
Girls/young women are renowned for throwing all kinds of " tantrums " and acts of revenge after a split, you read about these things every day and this is exactly what JM did during her stand as a prosecution witness-----which she did very well until it came to her being questioned about the man she'd once loved and she couldn't speak through the tears after realising what she'd done !

Very good post Lookout.

I was replying to the fact Jeremy being guilty from ilovebooze posts, I suppose we have to flip it round now?

[guest7363]

JB can't be blamed for coercive/controlled behaviour towards JM as he was too busy flitting about from one woman to another so was never the " steady boyfriend ". It was when Sheila had moved to London that JB was beginning to feel his feet and the grass was looking a lot greener there than in the insular environment of where he was.
He'd obviously enjoyed the party atmosphere that was London and probably what went on in his mind was the continuing boredom of a relationship that was going stale.

Because of the more or less sheltered lives that both he and Sheila had led at WHF the thought of them both spreading their wings felt like a different way of life altogether which both enjoyed.
During this new found life, it was JB who'd looked after his sister, driving her home from clubs/parties. I don't know many brothers who'd look out for their sisters in this way while enjoying themselves ?

A psychopath would just let them get on with it----being void of any feelings etc and would continue to do what they wanted as is a psychopath's nature, selfish and uncaring.
We don't know the enjoyment that JB had while JM was out of sight ! if JB had had eyes for JM I'm almost certain that he would have got engaged to her, but he wasn't interested and apart from the fact that June never got on with her that relationship was fizzling out before the murders ever took place and JB was looking for a way out.

His chance came when he got that phone-call while JM was in his presence and that pretty well marked the end of the relationship.
At 24 it's not a hanging offence to end a relationship. If JB was as bad as he's been painted why was JM hanging on to him for grim death ? Why was she so furious with him and wanting to suffocate him ? 
Girls/young women are renowned for throwing all kinds of " tantrums " and acts of revenge after a split, you read about these things every day and this is exactly what JM did during her stand as a prosecution witness-----which she did very well until it came to her being questioned about the man she'd once loved and she couldn't speak through the tears after realising what she'd done !

I suppose we could argue, if the relationship had fizzled out, why he chose to ring Julie at daft o’clock in the morning on the day of the massacre instead of the police first, the thing that’s strange about this call, in her statement dated 8th of August (this is before Julie came forward) she never mentions Neville, Bamber didn’t say to Julie my Dad’s rang something’s wrong, he just said there’s something wrong?

If I rang my wife to tell her something was wrong at my dad’s house I would tell her Dad’s rang, somethings not right etc, Bamber didn’t mention Neville to Julie, because she knows the relationship between Bamber and his father wasn’t that close. 

[lookout]

I suppose we could argue, if the relationship had fizzled out, why he chose to ring Julie at daft o’clock in the morning on the day of the massacre instead of the police first, the thing that’s strange about this call, in her statement dated 8th of August (this is before Julie came forward) she never mentions Neville, Bamber didn’t say to Julie my Dad’s rang something’s wrong, he just said there’s something wrong?

If I rang my wife to tell her something was wrong at my dad’s house I would tell her Dad’s rang, somethings not right etc, Bamber didn’t mention Neville to Julie, because she knows the relationship between Bamber and his father wasn’t that close.

 
In JB's defence I can only suppose that it didn't enter his head to have mentioned his father, taking it for granted that JM would " know " that Nevill had rang anyway. JB's reason for ringing JM in the first place would have come naturally to him regardless of the time of night/morning as again, he'd have taken it for granted that she'd have acknowledged his call anyway------rather than ring the relatives who hadn't really known about Sheila's " episodes " , that in case it had been a false alarm as had been in past events, he'd felt that JM would have been the one to have understood more.

JM herself had obviously been aware of the times that JB had been called by his father to assist with Sheila because of her answer to him " to go back to bed " so she herself hadn't felt that it was urgent either. Anything involving Sheila it seems that Nevill was the one who rang or I'm sure if it had been June that had rang then he'd definitely have said " his mother ".

[guest7363]

 
In JB's defence I can only suppose that it didn't enter his head to have mentioned his father, taking it for granted that JM would " know " that Nevill had rang anyway. JB's reason for ringing JM in the first place would have come naturally to him regardless of the time of night/morning as again, he'd have taken it for granted that she'd have acknowledged his call anyway------rather than ring the relatives who hadn't really known about Sheila's " episodes " , that in case it had been a false alarm as had been in past events, he'd felt that JM would have been the one to have understood more.

JM herself had obviously been aware of the times that JB had been called by his father to assist with Sheila because of her answer to him " to go back to bed " so she herself hadn't felt that it was urgent either. Anything involving Sheila it seems that Nevill was the one who rang or I'm sure if it had been June that had rang then he'd definitely have said " his mother ".

Its just strange he never mentioned Dad’s just rang.  Julie isn’t making this part up because her statement was 8th of August.  He finds the trouble to ring her up at that time in a morning, it’s not as though it’s a direct line to JM, it woke the flat up?  As well as not mentioning Neville, he never mentioned Sheila.  I never knew Neville had called Jeremy lots of times  before to assist with Sheila? 

[Caroline]

Its just strange he never mentioned Dad’s just rang.  Julie isn’t making this part up because her statement was 8th of August.  He finds the trouble to ring her up at that time in a morning, it’s not as though it’s a direct line to JM, it woke the flat up?  As well as not mentioning Neville, he never mentioned Sheila. I never knew Neville had called Jeremy lots of times  before to assist with Sheila?

That is because there is no evidence to support it, just claims here.

[lookout]

That is because there is no evidence to support it, just claims here.

We know he did ring on occasion, but the problem here is that there's only JB who knows that and nobody here believes him anyway ? This is the downside when you have a family that keep to themselves. Nobody believed JB when he mentioned fostering but gradually it came to light that he hadn't been lying.
Very difficult when you're not believed. 

[guest7363]

 
In JB's defence I can only suppose that it didn't enter his head to have mentioned his father, taking it for granted that JM would " know " that Nevill had rang anyway. JB's reason for ringing JM in the first place would have come naturally to him regardless of the time of night/morning as again, he'd have taken it for granted that she'd have acknowledged his call anyway------rather than ring the relatives who hadn't really known about Sheila's " episodes " , that in case it had been a false alarm as had been in past events, he'd felt that JM would have been the one to have understood more.

JM herself had obviously been aware of the times that JB had been called by his father to assist with Sheila because of her answer to him " to go back to bed " so she herself hadn't felt that it was urgent either. Anything involving Sheila it seems that Nevill was the one who rang or I'm sure if it had been June that had rang then he'd definitely have said " his mother ".

I can understand someone panicking and wanting advice, I would do the same, but he’s rang someone up in the early hours of the morning for advice, but not told them what’s wrong or who the call was from?  Why ring in the first place.  When Julie said go back to bed he just replied “bye honey”  or words to that effect. 

[guest7363]

That is because there is no evidence to support it, just claims here.

Oh right, I thought I’d missed something. 

[lookout]

I can understand someone panicking and wanting advice, I would do the same, but he’s rang someone up in the early hours of the morning for advice, but not told them what’s wrong or who the call was from?  Why ring in the first place.  When Julie said go back to bed he just replied “bye honey”  or words to that effect.

JB hadn't known what was going on at the time. Not being " a man of the world " he wanted reassurance because JM had been aware that a phone-call from Nevill had occurred before. I'm sure JB would have mentioned it to JM during their courtship which is why she showed no surprise.

[Jane]

JB can't be blamed for coercive/controlled behaviour towards JM as he was too busy flitting about from one woman to another so was never the " steady boyfriend ". It was when Sheila had moved to London that JB was beginning to feel his feet and the grass was looking a lot greener there than in the insular environment of where he was.
He'd obviously enjoyed the party atmosphere that was London and probably what went on in his mind was the continuing boredom of a relationship that was going stale.

Because of the more or less sheltered lives that both he and Sheila had led at WHF the thought of them both spreading their wings felt like a different way of life altogether which both enjoyed.
During this new found life, it was JB who'd looked after his sister, driving her home from clubs/parties. I don't know many brothers who'd look out for their sisters in this way while enjoying themselves ?

A psychopath would just let them get on with it----being void of any feelings etc and would continue to do what they wanted as is a psychopath's nature, selfish and uncaring.
We don't know the enjoyment that JB had while JM was out of sight ! if JB had had eyes for JM I'm almost certain that he would have got engaged to her, but he wasn't interested and apart from the fact that June never got on with her that relationship was fizzling out before the murders ever took place and JB was looking for a way out.

His chance came when he got that phone-call while JM was in his presence and that pretty well marked the end of the relationship.
At 24 it's not a hanging offence to end a relationship. If JB was as bad as he's been painted why was JM hanging on to him for grim death ? Why was she so furious with him and wanting to suffocate him ? 
Girls/young women are renowned for throwing all kinds of " tantrums " and acts of revenge after a split, you read about these things every day and this is exactly what JM did during her stand as a prosecution witness-----which she did very well until it came to her being questioned about the man she'd once loved and she couldn't speak through the tears after realising what she'd done !

But Lookout, a controller doesn't have to be with someone 24/7 to exert control. As for your grasp on what constitutes a psychopath? They're chameleons. They play at having empathy, at being caring and concerned, but, like the actor doing a cold read through, they don't feel it. Whether or not he played away when Julie wasn't around is irrelevant. It seems to have slipped your memory that he asked Julie to marry him but quickly reneged after an alleged conversation with his parents.

[guest7363]

JB hadn't known what was going on at the time. Not being " a man of the world " he wanted reassurance because JM had been aware that a phone-call from Nevill had occurred before. I'm sure JB would have mentioned it to JM during their courtship which is why she showed no surprise.

He knew Sheila was going crazy with a gun and he knew the call was from Neville.  Wonder why Bamber never told police or Julie or Brett he’d received calls about Sheila from his father before?  Really important information like that, even at trial he never brought it up.  He would have started off by saying, “Dad’s called again, he wants help with Sheila”. It’s natural to phrase it like that if it’s an occurrence.

[Jane]

 
In JB's defence I can only suppose that it didn't enter his head to have mentioned his father, taking it for granted that JM would " know " that Nevill had rang anyway. JB's reason for ringing JM in the first place would have come naturally to him regardless of the time of night/morning as again, he'd have taken it for granted that she'd have acknowledged his call anyway------rather than ring the relatives who hadn't really known about Sheila's " episodes " , that in case it had been a false alarm as had been in past events, he'd felt that JM would have been the one to have understood more.

JM herself had obviously been aware of the times that JB had been called by his father to assist with Sheila because of her answer to him " to go back to bed " so she herself hadn't felt that it was urgent either. Anything involving Sheila it seems that Nevill was the one who rang or I'm sure if it had been June that had rang then he'd definitely have said " his mother ".

WHY would JM have "been aware of......................."? Jeremy hadn't lived at WHF for years, and he wasn't close to either parent, yet you appear, with no knowledge of whether or not it's true, to be implying that Nevill rang Jeremy every time Sheila called him. Like Caroline and RJ, I think it's extremely odd that he made no mention, to Julie, of his father's call and his terror. "Go back to bed" suggests, to me, she wanted to distance herself from what he might be trying to tell her.

[Jane]

JB hadn't known what was going on at the time. Not being " a man of the world " he wanted reassurance because JM had been aware that a phone-call from Nevill had occurred before. I'm sure JB would have mentioned it to JM during their courtship which is why she showed no surprise.

When was this other phone call from Nevill, Lookout? What was it pertaining to? Given how much intimacy was lacking in their relationship, I can't imagine it would have occurred to him to have told Jeremy. If you'd said Barbara Wilson I'd have been inclined to agree.

[lookout]

But Lookout, a controller doesn't have to be with someone 24/7 to exert control. As for your grasp on what constitutes a psychopath? They're chameleons. They play at having empathy, at being caring and concerned, but, like the actor doing a cold read through, they don't feel it. Whether or not he played away when Julie wasn't around is irrelevant. It seems to have slipped your memory that he asked Julie to marry him but quickly reneged after an alleged conversation with his parents.

That " alleged conversation " with his parents was June controlling JB's future, the same as she did with Sheila's and both followed her instructions by parting company with their chosen ones as June was never enamoured with Colin either.