The ITV Drama

[Romeo]

Absolutely Lookout, they did well materially but it does not replace unconditional love and bonding.  I’m afraid June had no idea how to do that, adopted or not their children would have suffered but it is wven harder when you are adopted and told you are not good enough, grateful enough and are generally a huge disappointment however much you try.

This is exactly what I mean! Both Shelia and Jeremy were raised given a materially wonderful childhood, but as you say Maggie not unconditional love and bonding. Shelia left WHF when she was 17 Jeremy when he was 19 to go to Australia. I think they both felt that being adopted was a stigma they felt they had to live with. As rightly stated JB felt he was a huge disappointment not wanting to farm the land with Neville.  Both JB & SC were told they were adopted at an early age around 6 years old so grew up with this knowledge Jeremy felt it more than Shelia who was prepared to meet her real mother when given the opportunity by June. Jeremy however didn't want to trace his family preferring the wealthy family he'd grown up with.  JB became obsessed with having a wealthy lifestyle himself having grown up within one. But sadly Shelia becoming ill meant the family's future finances would partly be used to look after Shelia and the twins. In my opinion this became a problem for the money loving JB.

[TheBrilliantMistake]

Where do you get this jealousy from ?
Both siblings had done very well out of their parents, in fact it was because they were both over-indulged that they became as they were, so it wasn't just Jeremy.
Didn't Nevill tell Barbara Wilson that " you do your best for them ( meaning both ) and this is what you get ".

The one thing that was missing from that family was love and a close bond between parents and siblings.

Jealousy isn't necessarily a rational emotion.
We could all say JB was relatively well off for his age, but that doesn't mean he would be fully appreciative of that, especially in his early 20's. It doesn't take long for anybody mixing in circles where even more money or privilege exists for you to feel hard done by.

For a seemingly suave and flamboyant young man, a flat in London would be quite something. A modest home in Goldhanger less so.

'The grass is always greener' may well have been something JB believed regardless of his actual circumstances.

As for love and bonding with parents, that is so subjective and it's very easy to look back and find evidence to suggest June was difficult. There is also plenty to suggest she was a typical doting mother too.

I could just as easily look at aspects of my own parents that could be seen as highly judgmental, oppressive, old fashioned etc. But I could also demonstrate love and care in abundance too. I think many of us could say the same.

I know plenty of churchgoers who are committed Christians. They are normal people to me (just hold some irrational beliefs). To others they would be bigoted religious crackpots.

[Romeo]

I didn't mention evil murderer !  No I did !
Why does he have to try and justify himself 34 years later ? A bit late in the day, isn't it ?

Actually his book was printed in 1994 7 years after the murders, not 34 years later.

[lookout]

June had been diagnosed with religious psychosis by Ferguson who'd previously treated her. A bit different from your run-of-the-mill churchgoer.

Neither sibling had anything to be jealous about as they'd been treated equally, financially and property-wise. I can't imagine either having been jealous. Jeremy would have accepted the fact that Sheila couldn't work because of her illness, though neither he nor his parents were aware or made aware of how debilitating her illness was.

Jeremy appeared happy being at Goldhanger. Less distance to travel to work and, much against his mother's wishes, a place that Julie could also crash out in when she was home during studies. I'd have said it suited him.
He knew he could also get his head down at Sheila's after partying in London, so he had the best of both worlds. It's not written anywhere that he'd been jealous nor envious of where Sheila was.

It was Sheila who hadn't wanted to live near her parents, she wanted to be close to the London scene.

[lookout]

Actually his book was printed in 1994 7 years after the murders, not 34 years later.

And ?

[Romeo]

I didn't mention evil murderer !  No I did!
Why does he have to try and justify himself 34 years later ? A bit late in the day, isn't it ?

In reply to your post above.

Actually his book was printed in 1994 7 years after the murders, not 34 years later.

[David1819]

In reply to your post above.

Actually his book was printed in 1994 7 years after the murders, not 34 years later.

His book has been re-released in 2020 edition.

His sudden re-involvment could be down to being short of money. But who knows. If so cant blame him. 

[TheBrilliantMistake]

June had been diagnosed with religious psychosis by Ferguson who'd previously treated her. A bit different from your run-of-the-mill churchgoer.

Neither sibling had anything to be jealous about as they'd been treated equally, financially and property-wise. I can't imagine either having been jealous. Jeremy would have accepted the fact that Sheila couldn't work because of her illness, though neither he nor his parents were aware or made aware of how debilitating her illness was.

Jeremy appeared happy being at Goldhanger. Less distance to travel to work and, much against his mother's wishes, a place that Julie could also crash out in when she was home during studies. I'd have said it suited him.
He knew he could also get his head down at Sheila's after partying in London, so he had the best of both worlds. It's not written anywhere that he'd been jealous nor envious of where Sheila was.

It was Sheila who hadn't wanted to live near her parents, she wanted to be close to the London scene.

Again, jealousy isn't rational. 24 year old men are often full of irrational hopes and aspirations.
Forget it was JB, it could have been any 24 year old. A mother who doesn't approve of his girlfriend 'carrying on with him' at his home - whilst his sister is posing for risque photos in London.
Siblings often have a combination of love and jealousy. It's fairly normal.

I think it's disingenuous to suggest he would have been any different.

The question then leads to a much more serious matter - what that enough to tip an abnormal personality into carrying out murderous acts? He would not have been the first or last.

And lest we forget. He still felt a need to steal money from his family business, regardless of him being relatively well off, and Mugford also felt a need to obtain good dishonestly. So the pair of them, aspired to things they could not afford, but rather than accept they couldn't afford them, they carried out criminal acts to get them...

[lookout]

Again, jealousy isn't rational. 24 year old men are often full of irrational hopes and aspirations.
Forget it was JB, it could have been any 24 year old. A mother who doesn't approve of his girlfriend 'carrying on with him' at his home - whilst his sister is posing for risque photos in London.
Siblings often have a combination of love and jealousy. It's fairly normal.

I think it's disingenuous to suggest he would have been any different.

The question then leads to a much more serious matter - what that enough to tip an abnormal personality into carrying out murderous acts? He would not have been the first or last.

And lest we forget. He still felt a need to steal money from his family business, regardless of him being relatively well off, and Mugford also felt a need to obtain good dishonestly. So the pair of them, aspired to things they could not afford, but rather than accept they couldn't afford them, they carried out criminal acts to get them...

It wasn't Jeremy who had the abnormal personality, but anyone with a personality problem can kill or use violence and they live with a quick temper usually.

Because JB stole money from his business doesn't make him a murderer, just a greedy blighter and there are a lot of those about.

[TheBrilliantMistake]

Of course it doesn't make him a murderer. None of his behaviour makes him a murderer.

However, this case was unusual as it presented a logical conclusion that the killer could only be one of two people, either Sheila or Jeremy. That is quite unusual.
The initial evidence pointed to Sheila - it was a superficial 'first sighting' appearance. A very sound assumption to have made.

JB's behaviours didn't make him guilty, but they gave rise to suspicion, which then led to detectives pondering him as the killer. Once they pondered that scenario, the evidence started to fit him more than it did Sheila. Of course, that is a matter of opinion, but it is one that a jury shared.

Now we come to discussing possible motives for JB, and it's perfectly valid to suggest inheritance, discontent with his lot and jealousy might all have played a part. Regardless of if you think he is innocent or guilty, those are rational motives to put forward in the absence of the insanity defence.

[lookout]

Because in 1985 nobody would or could believe that a woman would/ could kill her children. Simple as that.
 Sheila could also have had withdrawal symptoms from drugs, which also causes violence.

Compared to Sheila, Jeremy had no motive to kill and don't say money because that has to be the easiest and weakest conclusion that any fool can come up with particularly in this case where a wallet and handbags lay around untouched of their contents.

Sheila had been the one with huge problems that showed no sign of going away.

An ex-husband who she thought there'd be reconciliation----but no hope.
Twins who she would lose full control of---and would spend most of their time with Colin and his girlfriend.
On-going friction with her mother.
Losing full support of her father in favour of June who was also sick.
Little hope of employment.
A mental health problem which she was struggling with.

[Steve_uk]

Because in 1985 nobody would or could believe that a woman would/ could kill her children. Simple as that.
 Sheila could also have had withdrawal symptoms from drugs, which also causes violence.

Compared to Sheila, Jeremy had no motive to kill and don't say money because that has to be the easiest and weakest conclusion that any fool can come up with particularly in this case where a wallet and handbags lay around untouched of their contents.

Sheila had been the one with huge problems that showed no sign of going away.

An ex-husband who she thought there'd be reconciliation----but no hope.
Twins who she would lose full control of---and would spend most of their time with Colin and his girlfriend.
On-going friction with her mother.
Losing full support of her father in favour of June who was also sick.
Little hope of employment.
A mental health problem which she was struggling with.

On the surface much of that is true lookout. But Jeremy lived for the moment, for the thrill after eight stuffy years at Gresham's. Don't forget also June was in the process of arranging an allowance for Sheila which would also have eaten into his inheritance.

[TheBrilliantMistake]

Because in 1985 nobody would or could believe that a woman would/ could kill her children. Simple as that.
 Sheila could also have had withdrawal symptoms from drugs, which also causes violence.

Compared to Sheila, Jeremy had no motive to kill and don't say money because that has to be the easiest and weakest conclusion that any fool can come up with particularly in this case where a wallet and handbags lay around untouched of their contents.

Sheila had been the one with huge problems that showed no sign of going away.

An ex-husband who she thought there'd be reconciliation----but no hope.
Twins who she would lose full control of---and would spend most of their time with Colin and his girlfriend.
On-going friction with her mother.
Losing full support of her father in favour of June who was also sick.
Little hope of employment.
A mental health problem which she was struggling with.

But they did. The press did. The police did. The public did.
Nobody had difficulty believing it was true. They had the usual 'disbelief' at the horror of it, but it's not disbelief in it being true.

[Kaldin]

This is exactly what I mean! Both Shelia and Jeremy were raised given a materially wonderful childhood, but as you say Maggie not unconditional love and bonding. Shelia left WHF when she was 17 Jeremy when he was 19 to go to Australia. I think they both felt that being adopted was a stigma they felt they had to live with. As rightly stated JB felt he was a huge disappointment not wanting to farm the land with Neville.  Both JB & SC were told they were adopted at an early age around 6 years old so grew up with this knowledge Jeremy felt it more than Shelia who was prepared to meet her real mother when given the opportunity by June. Jeremy however didn't want to trace his family preferring the wealthy family he'd grown up with.  JB became obsessed with having a wealthy lifestyle himself having grown up within one. But sadly Shelia becoming ill meant the family's future finances would partly be used to look after Shelia and the twins. In my opinion this became a problem for the money loving JB.

I don't really see the family that way. Yes, they were wealthy by many people's standards, but they didn't have a lifestyle which reflected that. The farmhouse was large but it wasn't very posh, and they didn't spend all their time jetting off abroad for fancy holidays. It was all very much a working environment, what with the farm and the caravan site.

I don't think it's unusual for children to leave home at that age - not then anyway. Many children left home at 18 or so and went to college, or shared a house with friends, or whatever.

I've seen no evidence that being adopted made them feel stigmatised, apart from a bit of bullying of Jeremy at school.

[TheBrilliantMistake]

I don't really see the family that way. Yes, they were wealthy by many people's standards, but they didn't have a lifestyle which reflected that. The farmhouse was large but it wasn't very posh, and they didn't spend all their time jetting off abroad for fancy holidays. It was all very much a working environment, what with the farm and the caravan site.

I don't think it's unusual for children to leave home at that age - not then anyway. Many children left home at 18 or so and went to college, or shared a house with friends, or whatever.

I've seen no evidence that being adopted made them feel stigmatised, apart from a bit of bullying of Jeremy at school.

I am adopted (by my grandparents) - it is quite easy to look for excuses and blame adoption. There is nothing you can do about that. We turn out the way we are for so many reasons, and Jeremy turned out his own way.
I expect knowledge of being adopted did shape him a little - but so would every teacher, ever playground fight, every serious girlfriend etc.

We will never know what made him, or Sheila the people they were any more than we will understand Peter Sutcliffe, or Ian Brady, or Mira Hindley or Ian Huntley etc.

One of them did it, and the true reasons why will never be known. In some ways, it's almost easier to understand Jeremy's motives than Sheila's. Sheila's (if she did it) was probably a random act of insanity.
Jeremy's motives, if he did it, were more cunning (fathomable, but cunning)