Author Topic: Angle of rifle at time of both shots, not fired in same action (clue)...  (Read 1098 times)

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Offline mike tesko

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The angle at which the two shots were fired into Sheila's neck, prevents them both having been part of the same action, with Sheila's body ending up as it did in time to be photographed on the floor with the muzzle of the gun barrel aligned under her chin...
« Last Edit: May 11, 2014, 12:36:PM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

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 It's what I've always thought,Mike.

Offline mike tesko

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The rifle was held away to the left when Sheila received the original shot that went across her neck from left to right (from her perspective). It does not make any sense whatsoever, for someone who intended to commit suicide to hold a rifle at such a ridiculous angle with a view to the killing themselves...
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

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The rifle was held away to the left when Sheila received the original shot that went across her neck from left to right (from her perspective). It does not make any sense whatsoever, for someone who intended to commit suicide to hold a rifle at such a ridiculous angle with a view to the killing themselves...



 The second shot " may " have been the suicide one,,but I'm definitely of the opinion that the first one wasn't. I'm not convinced at all.

Offline mike tesko

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With this in mind, in the suicide scenario favoured by some, this 'across the neck' shot, has to be the first shot in the sequence,  but what I have discovered is that in the stage managed crime scene in the main bedroom, it could not possibly fit in with such a scenario...

To start with, you do not try to kill yourself, by shooting yourself across the neck, in the same way that anyone intending to kill you would also know that to shoot you across the neck is unlikely to do you in...

The more you look at all the characteristics of the 'across the neck' shot, the more it becomes so obvious that someone else shot her...
« Last Edit: May 11, 2014, 08:25:PM by mike tesko »
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Offline mike tesko

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If you would just concentrate on the 'across the neck' shot primarily. Stand Sheila upright, with the rifle barrel in position at the correct angle to discharge the shot. Turn her body around full circle, so that you can picture the direction in which the rifle was offered up in position at the material time of the shot. Tilt her body backwards at varying degrees, from upright to laid out flat, rotating the body all the while...

now, take it turn to place the body in the following locations inside the crime scene:-

(1) - On the main bedroom floor, where eventually photographed

(2) - On the bed in the main bedroom

(3) - At the entrance to the internal kitchen door...

Once you have done this, you will be in a much better position to know where and in what circumstance that first shot across the neck was inflicted...
« Last Edit: May 11, 2014, 08:58:PM by mike tesko »
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 One thing for sure,Mike,,Sheila wouldn't/couldn't have held the rifle at arms length in order to shoot herself,,as that first shot wasn't a contact one.

Offline mike tesko

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One thing for sure,Mike,,Sheila wouldn't/couldn't have held the rifle at arms length in order to shoot herself,,as that first shot wasn't a contact one.

Lookout,

Sheila was not shot 'across the neck'  whilst sat upright, or laid backward at a declined angle, nor was she shot in that manner whilst laid out on the bed...
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Lookout,

Sheila was not shot 'across the neck'  whilst sat upright, or laid backward at a declined angle, nor was she shot in that manner whilst laid out on the bed...




It was while she was standing,Mike,,as she must have had her head to one side to avoid the shot. That's my thought,anyway.

Offline scipio_usmc

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You might like to know that the favored shooting location of rifle suicides is the mouth, nearly a quarter choose it.  The second most popular is the right temple (if you add the left and right temple together it slightly exceeds the mouth as most popular), followed by the forehead and then chest.  Less than 10 percent choose under the chin.

Another tidbit, in multiple shot suicides the "victim" nearly always chooses a different location to fire the additional shots than near the first location fearing that the second shot in a similar location would also fail. US states with large populations generally have 1 multiple gunshot suicide every other year so they are rather rare. When you further analyze them you find it virtually unheard of for double shots to the chin from a rifle the "victim" nearly always chose a new location. In those cases where a throat shot failed the "victims" virtually always chose the mouth, forehead, temple or chest as a follow up.  The most surefire way to kill is to damage the brain.  That is why more than 50% of "victims" choose either the mouth, right temple or left temple.  As long as the gun is in the mouth pointed upwards the brain is sure to be damaged. When you add all head locations together you get around 70%, 16% to the chest, 9% to the throat 2% to the abdomen and the remainder to various other locations. So there are not that many throat suicides to look at. How many double throat shots could I find reading through the various examples in medical journals?  None

When you factor in that the coroner thought it was unlikely she was coherent enough to fire a second shot that makes it even more problemmatic.

If the suppressor had not been removed that would have at least made it possible to argue she fired with her toes.  While not common that is a method used to commit suicide with guns too long for the fingers to reach. So in this case removing the suppressor afterwards wound up being a mistake.     
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 A throat suicide would be meant for the jugular,,which would take around 5 minutes or so to die. So in effect,,that isn't a rare area for suicide victims,,particularly those who use a knife. A bullet is more direct.

Offline scipio_usmc

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A throat suicide would be meant for the jugular,,which would take around 5 minutes or so to die. So in effect,,that isn't a rare area for suicide victims,,particularly those who use a knife. A bullet is more direct.

Facts are facts. Less than 10% of those who commit suicide using a rifle choose the neck or chin.  How many slice their throats is not relevant.

Most who fail on the first shot change the location the next time around if they still are detemrined to take their life and are conscious. The assumption being shooting the same location will have the same result, failure.  Virtually everyone who shot their neck and failed chose a diffierent location.  I can't find any cases of multiple neck shots suicides. If there are any it is extremely rare. 

Statisticly it is unlikely Sheila would have chosen her neck and extremely unlikely to have followed up with another to the neck.

     
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline Caroline

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Facts are facts. Less than 10% of those who commit suicide using a rifle choose the neck or chin.  How many slice their throats is not relevant.

Most who fail on the first shot change the location the next time around if they still are detemrined to take their life and are conscious. The assumption being shooting the same location will have the same result, failure.  Virtually everyone who shot their neck and failed chose a diffierent location.  I can't find any cases of multiple neck shots suicides. If there are any it is extremely rare. 

Statisticly it is unlikely Sheila would have chosen her neck
and extremely unlikely to have followed up with another to the neck.

I'm not saying any of the above is incorrect; however, do you have anything to corroborate your claims in relation to statistics?
   
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Offline scipio_usmc

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I'm not saying any of the above is incorrect; however, do you have anything to corroborate your claims in relation to statistics?
 

I will see if I can find any sources that are free and available online most studies are in journals which you need to pay to access.

There are different stastistics for handguns than rifles.  I gave them for rifles but might end up having to find one that doesn't distinguish between handguns and long guns.

If I break down the stats for women then it will be even smaller because not as many women use guns to commit suicide as men and far more men than women engage in murder suicide.  Most murder suicides women engage in are to kill spouses and or kids not parents.

The problem with stats like this is there often is an exception to a rule or first time for everything no matter how rare so ALONE the stats are not meaningful, they only are meaningful as part of the overall picture.

Something can be extremely unlikely and yet their might be undeniable evidence something extremely unlikely has happened.

I simply don't see that here.

Many people suggest that the mental health picture of Sheila means she did it and that the evidence that proves she didn't must have been planted or faked.   Everything about the mental health picture and nature of the event suggests it is unlikely she did it. 

The evidence need to overcome that is to look in detail for forensic evidence that evidences such.  I think many peopel don't want to look at such evidence and want to dismiss it because it is damning to Jeremy so overstate the mental health aspect instead.

From a legal perspective that forensic evidence is the star of a case and that is even more true with relation to appeals so most efforts should be devoted there.

 
   

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Offline mike tesko

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No killer would shoot one of the five victims twice at conflicting angles to try and portray a case of suicide, no jury in the land would buy into that scenario.. At trial this aspect was never looked into at all because counsel for the prosecution and defence agreed to fight the case based upon who's blood was present inside the silencer...
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...