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The tragedy of the Princes in the Tower, victims of the machinations of Richard, Duke of Gloucester following the death of King Edward IV, 538 years ago today. https://youtu.be/uwzuHGMHx1I?list=WL

I wonder if Jeremy has actual blood connections to royalty?  My understanding is that his biological father was born into an ordinary working class family in Essex (in a place not too distant from White House Farm, coincidentally), but later in life he changed one of his middle names to Fitzroy.

Where's Campion when you need him?
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Off Topic / Re: 29-year-old Dutch woman ends her life legally
« Last post by QCChevalier on Yesterday at 08:27 PM »
I think organized suicide is horrible myself. Out of the 3248 persons who have been assisted to die at Dignitas 21% expresssed "weariness of life" rather than suffering from a terminal illness. Surely they could have been talked round by medical professionals or a man of the cloth?

Where is the dignity in Dignitas anyway..https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1269271/Fury-300-urns-containing-human-remains-Dignitas-suicide-clinic-Lake-Zurich.html

Yes, I agree that looked at overall, it is horrible, but that does not mean it should be illegal.  Fox hunting is horrible, but I'm not sure it was right or proper for Parliament to intervene in it.  In reality, we have to accept that other people may make different choices to ours and we may have to tolerate the existence of things that we may not approve of in our own lives. 

The phrase "weariness of life" could encompass lots of things.  You have interpreted it trivially.  Perhaps you have not been in the position of being 'weary of life', but I have and I have been suicidal and did not want to go on, as I did not see the point.  Who is to say it was right for me to go on living?  By what measure or benchmark is this decided?  Some people just want to die.  If somebody does not want to go on and cannot be talked round by appropriate people, then shouldn't their choice be respected?
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Pretty sure there is revisionist history available regarding Richard III. He died fighting gamely in battle. Not that that excuses any murderous acts on his part, if he was actually guilty of such. But his reign and how he came to be in the position he found himself in are probably known more clearly now. The bloke who userped him had a very tenuous link to the throne and produced his own monster, the bloated tyrant Henry Viii.

As a disgraced man with a string of ex-wives, I have some empathy for Henry VIII.  I wish I could have had two or three of them beheaded.  Plus by setting up a national catholic church independent of Rome, he started the process that turned England into a distinctive and separate nation, semi-detached from Europe. 

However I think my favourite post-Conquest king is Richard I (the Lionheart), based on the mythological history I have read.  I prefer the Old English [pre-Conquest] kings and chiefs really, but that's perhaps a whole other topic.

Back in school, they used to make us sing that mnemonic rhyme with all the kings and queens, which means I can recite every one, and most of the dates too. 

In my opinion:

The greatest king overall was Henry V.
The most heroic king [post-Conquest] was Richard I - Cœur de Lion.
The most competent king was William the Conqueror, with Henry II close behind.
The most important king of the modern era was William III/II (William of Orange).
The worst is the present one, Elizabeth II, or Elizabeth the Worst, as she is sometimes nicknamed.
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Off Topic / Re: 29-year-old Dutch woman ends her life legally
« Last post by Steve_uk on Yesterday at 08:10 PM »
I think organized suicide is horrible myself. Out of the 3248 persons who have been assisted to die at Dignitas 21% expresssed "weariness of life" rather than suffering from a terminal illness. Surely they could have been talked round by medical professionals or a man of the cloth?

Where is the dignity in Dignitas anyway..https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1269271/Fury-300-urns-containing-human-remains-Dignitas-suicide-clinic-Lake-Zurich.html
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Off Topic / Re: 29-year-old Dutch woman ends her life legally
« Last post by QCChevalier on Yesterday at 07:59 PM »
I wish I could agree with your last two sentences. The sad fact is that Harold Shipman was only caught after approximately 250 murders because one of these victims had apparently bequeathed him a substantial sum of money.

In the context of euthanasia, what you're really referring to is a dispute over consent.  The only way that could arise is if the patient cannot provide oral or written consent, due to an injury or disability.  In those circumstances, either some unconventional means would have to be found for the patient to convey his wishes or the request for euthanasia would have to be denied (assuming the question even arises).  Furthermore, doctors do not normally carry out euthanasia.  The patient must carry out the act and in Switzerland this is under the supervision of a non-medical person.  Under the relevant Swiss laws, the only involvement of the medical profession is diagnostic and administrative and a doctor is not present during the final act. 

If a doctor of the Shipman model wrongly authorises euthanasia and a subsequent examining clinician is unduly influenced by this view to also approve the request, that is wrong and probably a professional disciplinary offence on the part of the doctors involved, but it is not murder or manslaughter by the original doctor because the patient is still killing himself. 

If such a doctor actually kills the patient and then claims it was euthanasia, that is plain murder and little to do with the permissibility of euthanasia itself, in my view.  Such a doctor has plenty of opportunity to murder patients under the cloak of double effect just by fixing himself up with a job at any local hospital - a much easier route to sate his murderous lust.  Falsifying euthanasia would require extensive falsification of medical records and the involvement of other medical professionals, as well as forcing the patient to drink something or be smothered with a bag, which requires violence and thus leaves incriminating evidence behind; whereas in a hospital situation, it is unlikely a doctor would be questioned for overdosing a terminally-ill or badly-suffering elderly patient.

As an aside, I read into the Shipman case a few years ago and came away unsure about the trial.  It's not that I doubt he was guilty of something, and he certainly forged a will, but I take a sceptical approach to everything and it seemed to me that the prosecution case for murder relied mainly on toxicology findings - and I must tell you that I find that quite dubious.

My scepticism deepened when I considered the Smith reports, which I don't give very much credibility as it's clear the authors are engaging in guesswork, perhaps under the social and political pressure of the time.  Ultimately, reports like that are always 'political' first and foremost.  I think it is unlikely somebody would have been killing patients over such a long period.  Assuming he was a murderer, I think it is more likely that he started this when he took over his own practice and found himself working unsupervised, and perhaps for some reason he cracked at this point - maybe just on account of middle age.  Of course, I'm falling into guesswork myself.  I don't know either, but remember Shipman was caught only after some years as a solo general practitioner.  He had previously been in partnership and I am given to understand that no concerns of this nature were raised about him over that period.
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Other high profile cases / Re: King Richard III: the Jeremy Bamber of his day
« Last post by Roch on Yesterday at 07:20 PM »
The tragedy of the Princes in the Tower, victims of the machinations of Richard, Duke of Gloucester following the death of King Edward IV, 538 years ago today. https://youtu.be/uwzuHGMHx1I?list=WL

Pretty sure there is revisionist history available regarding Richard III. He died fighting gamely in battle. Not that that excuses any murderous acts on his part, if he was actually guilty of such. But his reign and how he came to be in the position he found himself in are probably known more clearly now. The bloke who userped him had a very tenuous link to the throne and produced his own monster, the bloated tyrant Henry Viii.
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Off Topic / Re: 29-year-old Dutch woman ends her life legally
« Last post by Steve_uk on Yesterday at 06:59 PM »
I wish I could agree with your last two sentences. The sad fact is that Harold Shipman was only caught after approximately 250 murders because one of these victims had apparently bequeathed him a substantial sum of money.
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Off Topic / Re: 29-year-old Dutch woman ends her life legally
« Last post by QCChevalier on Yesterday at 06:47 PM »
As usual with your posts you cover most bases though your dragnet is so wide I'm not altogether sure where you stand.

That's because I try to think about what I am saying, and I try to make thoughtful contributions to the Forum, and I dislike intellectual arrogance in general.  I find that the more I think about a topic, question or subject, the more taxing it becomes.  When that happens in regard to a tricky issue such as this, it is difficult to come to a definite view one way or the other.  Similarly, on the matter of capital punishment: I am not an enthusiast for it, but I acknowledge that justice demands it in some cases, and I think it should be up to the courts to decide.

Dichotomies are often practically unhelpful anyway.  I think issues such as this have to give way to pragmatism and messy compromises in the end.  It's easy for us to say that a terminally-ill patient should endure a few more weeks' suffering so as uphold high-flown ethical or moral principle and also not upset his relatives, but our view may well be different if we find ourselves as one of the patients enduring such suffering.

For me the act of suicide is abhorrent by any means,

I should think it is abhorrent to many people.  In my case, I think abhorrent is the wrong word.  I am not religious and I do not see a moral dimension to it.  Certainly I find it disturbing and troublesome, and I would try to talk anybody out of it, though I must also acknowledge that it is for the individual to make their own decision about it, and I also acknowledge that where a person of at least minimal mental competence decides to commit suicide for his own reasons, then it must be his right.  Who am I to demand otherwise?

I would find any sort of organised system of euthanasia quite frightening in some ways, due to its deeper implications and possible ramifications.  However, the fact is that authorities in the Netherlands and Switzerland allow it or condone it without any evident disruption to their societies.  It would seem that uptake among the healthy who 'just want to die' is relatively tiny and restricted to desperate people, and such people face a number of obstacles before their wishes will be carried out.  The obstacles may not always be difficult to surmount, but I suppose that's because the point of the system is to ensure that a person's wishes are carried out only after a responsible person has checked that they are fully-informed and know what they are doing. 

Personally, I think that is a reasonable system.  That doesn't mean I like it or that I'm going to be rushing to join Dignitas and book an appointment next week due to the long-term trauma inflicted on me by Adam's stubborn refusal to recognise the genius of my Crispy theory and recommend me for the CT, but it does mean I can acknowledge that other people believe this should be an option on the table for them, and there ought to be a system in place to cater for them without it obnoxiously impacting on the rest of society. 

And one day I might need it.

though if it is to be undertaken I suppose it would be best committed by an individual which doesn't cause distress or inconvenience to others (for example to throw yourself in front of a Jubilee Line train might cause lasting mental anguish to the Tube driver or onlookers as well as delaying people's journey to work). If you are terminally ill and have loved ones I think you should spare them the anguish, even if it means a few extra weeks' suffering. I don't like the idea of affording doctors the power to end life, lest this should lead to another Harold Shipman case, a scandal which occurred not far from where I live.

Arguably doctors do technically have that power under double effect.  What normally happens is that there's a nod and a wink between the patient or the relatives, and the doctor administers an overdose of morphine. Job done.  It's just not discussed much, because it's not something that anybody really wants to discuss, and besides, it's only supposed to be done when the patient is dying anyway.  Nevertheless, it won't always be done with the patient's explicit consent.  The distinction with the Shipman case is that a double effect defence was not possible, and he knew this, which is why he was writing-up all the death certificates.

But euthanasia per se doesn't give the medical profession any 'power' over a patient.  It's a completely different situation.  Euthanasia in the sense we are referring to is strictly elective, and in virtually all cases, there will be no legal dispute over consent.  Thus, a Shipman-type incident could only happen if the doctor forges the consent, and I should think that is virtually impossible because consent will not be a once-only matter, rather it will be given progressively over a long period of time as the patient consults with several doctors and non-medical people.  Therefore I don't see any scope for the criminality you mention.
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Other high profile cases / King Richard III: the Jeremy Bamber of his day
« Last post by Steve_uk on Yesterday at 06:44 PM »
The tragedy of the Princes in the Tower, victims of the machinations of Richard, Duke of Gloucester following the death of King Edward IV, 538 years ago today. https://youtu.be/uwzuHGMHx1I?list=WL
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It was a Georgian mansion lookout with thick walls. Are you quite sure such a sound would have been audible?




Within the property, yes. It was dead of night remember so no other sounds that we know of.
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