Jeremy Bamber Forum

JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: David1819 on September 12, 2019, 12:28:AM

Title: Copper on Sheila's left hand points to her loading ammunition.
Post by: David1819 on September 12, 2019, 12:28:AM
How can Sheila get copper on her left hand?

And why does both her left, right and control hand swabs show similar levels of copper that was found on the left, right and control hand swabs of the lab testees after loading 18 bullets into the rifle magazine?

The logical answer is she reloaded the magazine like the lab staff did.

B.R. Elliott, Cross-examined.

Q. Brass is softer than steel?

A: Brass is softer yes, but steel is appreciably harder.

Q: The constituents are what? 

A: Copper and Zinc.

Q: I would like to continue, if I may, with this demonstration which has been given to us by the graphs you have produced, in relation to copper. If you look please, forgive me, I would like you to go back to the blank control swab. That copper there, is a copper element there which is virtually undetectable isn't it?

A: There is a hint of copper.

Q: A hint of it, but virtually undetectable. Now I would like you to go over the page to Sheila's left hand swab, taking the graph over the top.

A: Copper is there in a Larger quantity, but again very small.

Q: You agree that copper is there in a larger quantity but you say a very small amount. Copper is undoubtedly detectable, isn't it?

A: Yes, the copper is present on that hand swab.

Q: Go over the page to the right hand swab please. There is a little, in fact no more than the control swab?

A: That is correct yes.

Q: Would you now go over the page to the left hand of the female member of lab staff who was handling 18 of these cartridges and look at the copper there.

A: Yes.

Q: There is copper?

A: Yes there is.

Q: And it is a matter of comment, but if one goes back to Sheila's left hand swab it is about the same as Sheila's isn't it?

A: Yes.

Q: And if you go over to the right hand swab of the female member of the lab staff. Again we see copper there, but it is hardly any more than the copper that appears on the control swab.

A: Yes again a very small level.

Q: Just like Sheila's right hand I won't say exactly the same but it is similar isn't it?

A: Probably a little more but a low level.

Q: Thank you. Would you please now go over to the male member of the lab staff and look at copper.

A: Copper is certainly present there again in a small quantity.

Q: I see, and the right hand swab?

A: Again present in a small quantity. 

Q: Slightly smaller quantity isn't it?

A: Slightly smaller than the left hand, Yes.

Q: Led is the softer you say, or lead particles are the softer?

A: Of the three metals we discussed so far.

Q: And much easier to smear off because of that?

A: To smear on and to smear off.

Q: To smear on and to smear off?

A: Yes.

Q: If one's hands are sticky? We saw what happened yesterday when Mr. Fletcher was in the witness box. If one's hands are sticky and perspiring and if one had reason to wipe them you would expect lead which has accumulated to be smeared off, wouldn't you?

A: Yes some of it would be smeared off, yes.

Q: As regards cartridges. When a cartridge is loaded into the magazine are you aware of this fact that the cartridge is liable to get scratched?

A: I know it can do yes.

Q: In those circumstances there may be particles of brass scratched off the cartridge.

A: Yes that is possible, yes.

Q: And it is right. isn't it. that a fine scratched off particles might show on your graph?

A: Yes that is correct.


Well done Rivlin for telling the jury she washed her hands.  ::)
Title: Re: Copper on Sheila's left hand points to her loading ammunition.
Post by: David1819 on September 12, 2019, 06:08:AM
While reading this transcript its obvious Rivlin was trying to make a point here. Why present it in such an inconspicuous way and give a contradictory argument in your opening and closing arguments? 

What was going through his mind? "Lets bring this stuff up inconspicuously for those dexterous on the jury.  And while In opening and closing statements I shall for the sake of any simpletons on the jury, say that she simply washed!"
Title: Re: Copper on Sheila's left hand points to her loading ammunition.
Post by: lookout on September 12, 2019, 01:11:PM
Many would say it's from the copper pans  ::) The same as was said about the trace of lead which was found------that was kitchen utensils  ::)
Title: Re: Copper on Sheila's left hand points to her loading ammunition.
Post by: David1819 on September 12, 2019, 05:52:PM
Many would say it's from the copper pans  ::) The same as was said about the trace of lead which was found------that was kitchen utensils  ::)

She was right handed so she would hold a copper pan in her right hand. When it comes to loading a magazine you insert the bullets with your writing hand while holding the magazine in the other.

Copper from the shell casings got scratched off while being pushed down into magazine thus falling into the hand holding the magazine. Just like the lab testees.
Title: Re: Copper on Sheila's left hand points to her loading ammunition.
Post by: Jan on October 23, 2019, 06:14:PM
David excuse me as obviously a bit rusty on the case - I was just reading something about June being beaten as well as shot - was that with the rifle and was there evidence on the rifle ?

I know ( from research and knowledge) that in a psychotic  episode that people can gain enormous strength , I am not sure Jeremy would know that - it seemed that he was accused of not having a lot of knowledge about her illness , he knew some things but not in great detail . If he was trying to mimic Sheila a girl carrying out the crime i dont think the beatings would have been part of his plan ? If you see what i mean?

It always stikes me that he can be attributed with extreme meticulous planning of the perfect undetectable crime and yet be accused of stupidity of admitting eveything shortly afterwards .



good to see you here carring out detailed research by the way .



Title: Re: Copper on Sheila's left hand points to her loading ammunition.
Post by: Steve_uk on October 23, 2019, 07:11:PM
David excuse me as obviously a bit rusty on the case - I was just reading something about June being beaten as well as shot - was that with the rifle and was there evidence on the rifle ?

I know ( from research and knowledge) that in a psychotic  episode that people can gain enormous strength , I am not sure Jeremy would know that - it seemed that he was accused of not having a lot of knowledge about her illness , he knew some things but not in great detail . If he was trying to mimic Sheila a girl carrying out the crime i dont think the beatings would have been part of his plan ? If you see what i mean?

It always stikes me that he can be attributed with extreme meticulous planning of the perfect undetectable crime and yet be accused of stupidity of admitting eveything shortly afterwards .



good to see you here carring out detailed research by the way .
He told Julie with Nevill he had lost control in a moment of madness or some similar expression. I'm not sure June was beaten, unless you count the black eye, which may or may not have been present on her face prior to that Tuesday.  He enjoyed the killings and when one understands that one understands the man a little clearer.
Title: Re: Copper on Sheila's left hand points to her loading ammunition.
Post by: Kaldin on October 23, 2019, 07:16:PM
I don't think there was anything in the post mortem to suggest that June had been beaten was there?
Title: Re: Copper on Sheila's left hand points to her loading ammunition.
Post by: Steve_uk on October 23, 2019, 07:23:PM
I don't think there was anything in the post mortem to suggest that June had been beaten was there?
Well as I say she had a black eye.
Title: Re: Copper on Sheila's left hand points to her loading ammunition.
Post by: lookout on October 23, 2019, 07:36:PM
Seemingly the black eye was beforehand as June was unable to attend Bible classes I assume because she was indisposed because of it. Nothing to do with the night of the murders.
Title: Re: Copper on Sheila's left hand points to her loading ammunition.
Post by: Kaldin on October 23, 2019, 07:45:PM
Who said she had a black eye?
Title: Re: Copper on Sheila's left hand points to her loading ammunition.
Post by: Jan on October 23, 2019, 07:49:PM
I just saw something on here - now I will have to find it.
Title: Re: Copper on Sheila's left hand points to her loading ammunition.
Post by: Jan on October 23, 2019, 07:51:PM
steve uk quoted from colin and implicated it was from the trial



Title: Re: Copper on Sheila's left hand points to her loading ammunition.
Post by: Jan on October 23, 2019, 07:52:PM
steve uk implicated from trial


"It's all in italics as if Colin is quoting from witnesses at trial, which he was:

Upstairs in the bedroom occupied by the twins, both boys were found tucked up in their beds apparently asleep, one of them still having his thumb in his mouth. There were no signs of a struggle. Nicholas had three shots to the back of his head and Daniel had been shot five times, also in the back of his head. In the main bedroom, June was found on the floor behind the door. She had been shot several times, including one shot between her eyes and into her brain; blood had run down her legs and onto the carpet, as if she had walked around the bed and across the room before the final fatal shot. Like her husband, she had been beaten as well as shot. "
Title: Re: Copper on Sheila's left hand points to her loading ammunition.
Post by: Steve_uk on October 23, 2019, 07:58:PM
Who said she had a black eye?
I thought it was in the autopsy report.
Title: Re: Copper on Sheila's left hand points to her loading ammunition.
Post by: Jan on October 23, 2019, 08:05:PM
was  that not before the murders ?  I thought a family mentioned it ? I might be wrong ? As if she may have had a tussle with Sheila ?
Title: Re: Copper on Sheila's left hand points to her loading ammunition.
Post by: David1819 on October 23, 2019, 08:11:PM
Black eyes can be induced postmortem. They can also be caused by gunshot wounds to the head.
Title: Re: Copper on Sheila's left hand points to her loading ammunition.
Post by: lookout on October 23, 2019, 08:14:PM
Apparently June's " excuse " re. the black eye was that she'd " walked into the door ", so it had been seen by somebody as I remember reading about it because I'd remarked " more like Sheila had walloped her " or words to that effect.
Title: Re: Copper on Sheila's left hand points to her loading ammunition.
Post by: Steve_uk on October 23, 2019, 08:19:PM
was  that not before the murders ?  I thought a family mentioned it ? I might be wrong ? As if she may have had a tussle with Sheila ?
But June had been out and about with Sheila that final day and nobody (Michael Horsnell, Barry Parker, Elizabeth Smith, Katherine Golding) ever mentioned it.
Title: Re: Copper on Sheila's left hand points to her loading ammunition.
Post by: lookout on October 23, 2019, 08:25:PM
The black eye had been noticed by Jeremy who'd asked June how she came by it and she'd said she'd hit it on a post. It could have happened over the weekend because June missed her class which was on the Tuesday.
Title: Re: Copper on Sheila's left hand points to her loading ammunition.
Post by: Caroline on October 23, 2019, 08:31:PM
The black eye had been noticed by Jeremy who'd asked June how she came by it and she'd said she'd hit it on a post. It could have happened over the weekend because June missed her class which was on the Tuesday.

She missed the bible class because Sheila was there. How come no one else saw the black eye on the Tuesday?
Title: Re: Copper on Sheila's left hand points to her loading ammunition.
Post by: lookout on October 23, 2019, 08:34:PM
Apparently it was AE who first mentioned the black eye and when Jeremy asked police they wouldn't say anything as he'd also said that there was more to her injury------nobody coughed !
Title: Re: Copper on Sheila's left hand points to her loading ammunition.
Post by: Jan on October 23, 2019, 08:37:PM
But June had been out and about with Sheila that final day and nobody (Michael Horsnell, Barry Parker, Elizabeth Smith, Katherine Golding) ever mentioned it.

I did  not say it was the day of the murder
Title: Re: Copper on Sheila's left hand points to her loading ammunition.
Post by: lookout on October 23, 2019, 08:41:PM
A hot poker was found in the gun cupboard.
Title: Re: Copper on Sheila's left hand points to her loading ammunition.
Post by: lookout on October 23, 2019, 08:42:PM
A hot poker was found in the gun cupboard.




This was posted by Hartley on the Never Explained thread of 2014.
Title: Re: Copper on Sheila's left hand points to her loading ammunition.
Post by: lookout on October 23, 2019, 08:44:PM
Who puts a hot poker in a gun cupboard ?
Title: Re: Copper on Sheila's left hand points to her loading ammunition.
Post by: Jan on October 23, 2019, 08:51:PM
on research - anne said she overheard Jeremy telling DC Clarke about the black eye june had ,   seen at supper- not mentioned in anyone elses statements except Annes .
not mentioned by pathology ?

so back to my question - raied by steve uk - was june beaten  as well as Neville and what  evidence of that was found on the gun except for the broken stock that i know about?

Because Neither Sheila or Jeremy had indications of the beating on their hands
Title: Re: Copper on Sheila's left hand points to her loading ammunition.
Post by: Caroline on October 23, 2019, 09:57:PM
A hot poker was found in the gun cupboard.

A 'hot' poker?  ;D
Title: Re: Copper on Sheila's left hand points to her loading ammunition.
Post by: Caroline on October 23, 2019, 09:58:PM
Apparently it was AE who first mentioned the black eye and when Jeremy asked police they wouldn't say anything as he'd also said that there was more to her injury------nobody coughed !

Ann mentioned it as a recount from Jeremy!
Title: Re: Copper on Sheila's left hand points to her loading ammunition.
Post by: Caroline on October 23, 2019, 09:59:PM
on research - anne said she overheard Jeremy telling DC Clarke about the black eye june had ,   seen at supper- not mentioned in anyone elses statements except Annes .
not mentioned by pathology ?

so back to my question - raied by steve uk - was june beaten  as well as Neville and what  evidence of that was found on the gun except for the broken stock that i know about?

Because Neither Sheila or Jeremy had indications of the beating on their hands

It was mentioned by Venezis (pathology)
Title: Re: Copper on Sheila's left hand points to her loading ammunition.
Post by: Caroline on October 23, 2019, 10:00:PM
on research - anne said she overheard Jeremy telling DC Clarke about the black eye june had ,   seen at supper- not mentioned in anyone elses statements except Annes .
not mentioned by pathology ?

so back to my question - raied by steve uk - was june beaten  as well as Neville and what  evidence of that was found on the gun except for the broken stock that i know about?

Because Neither Sheila or Jeremy had indications of the beating on their hands

A punch in the face can cause a black eye - didn't have to be the rifle.
Title: Re: Copper on Sheila's left hand points to her loading ammunition.
Post by: sami on October 23, 2019, 11:17:PM
She was right handed so she would hold a copper pan in her right hand. When it comes to loading a magazine you insert the bullets with your writing hand while holding the magazine in the other.

Copper from the shell casings got scratched off while being pushed down into magazine thus falling into the hand holding the magazine. Just like the lab testees.
its not for you to dictate how a person would load a magazine because some will do it different than others