Jeremy Bamber Forum

JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: IndigoJ on August 08, 2018, 08:29:AM

Title: The gun cupboard
Post by: IndigoJ on August 08, 2018, 08:29:AM
Is there any information about whether the gun cupboard would normally have been kept locked?

I find it odd that it was open and that JB stated he didn't replace a gun in the cupboard when he left that day

with two 6 year olds in the house i would have thought it a priority that it was kept locked and wouldn't that have been a condition of his gun licence?
Title: Re: The gun cupboard
Post by: Adam on August 08, 2018, 08:47:AM
As Jeremy said in court 'I didn't know what was going to happen, did I'.

Obviously he saw rabbits & got the rifle from the gun cupboard. Then left the rifle on the kitchen table.

Bit of a strange thing to do, take something as big as a rifle from a gun cupboard, then two minutes later not bother returning it back there.

Bit rude as well, him leaving a big rifle sprawled across someone else's table. When the gun cuoboard was feet away.

I can understand if he took a coffee mug from a cupboard. Drank a coffee & then left it on the kitchen table. Although still polite to wash it up & put it away afterwards.

Nevill & June would have seen the rifle sprawled across the kitchen table. However it has to assummed neither of them put it away.

Title: Re: The gun cupboard
Post by: David1819 on August 08, 2018, 08:59:AM
Is there any information about whether the gun cupboard would normally have been kept locked?

I find it odd that it was open and that JB stated he didn't replace a gun in the cupboard when he left that day

with two 6 year olds in the house i would have thought it a priority that it was kept locked and wouldn't that have been a condition of his gun licence?

There was no lock on the gun cupboard. Back then the laws were very relaxed.
Title: Re: The gun cupboard
Post by: Adam on August 08, 2018, 09:04:AM
There was no lock on the gun cupboard. Back then the laws were very relaxed.

Do you believe Sheila got the rifle from the kitchen table, or from the unlocked gun cupboard ?
Title: Re: The gun cupboard
Post by: Adam on August 08, 2018, 09:15:AM
Sheila getting the rifle from the gun cupboard is very unlikely.

Bamber has always promoted Sheila taking it from the kitchen table. This is more appropriate to a spontaneous action in the middle of a 3am pyschotic rage.

Doubtful Sheila in a rage would stop to think & decide to go to the gun cupboard. If she did she would not know what gun was loaded or the best weapon to use in a massacre attempt. Nevill would also have more chance to stop her.

Both Nevill and June must have left the rifle sprawled across the kitchen table. After Bamber put it there around 9pm.
Title: Re: The gun cupboard
Post by: lookout on August 08, 2018, 09:19:AM
I don't think Sheila gave her dad a chance of putting the rifle away before she grabbed it.


Nevill may have taken the dogs out before he put the guns away in the cupboard. He wouldn't have finished the harvest until late as he'd resumed after Jeremy had left for home that night, then by the time Nevill took the dogs out the time would be getting on so who knows if Sheila had been in the kitchen on his return ? Sheila may have already been brandishing the rifle, we don't know.
Title: Re: The gun cupboard
Post by: Adam on August 08, 2018, 09:24:AM
How could Nevill, June, Bamber & Sheila have supper on the kitchen table ?

The first thing Bamber did when arriving at WHF, was get the rifle & then leave it on the kitchen table. There would be no room for supper.
Title: Re: The gun cupboard
Post by: lookout on August 08, 2018, 09:29:AM
How could Nevill, June, Bamber & Sheila have supper on the kitchen table ?

The first thing Bamber did when arriving at WHF, was get the rifle & then leave it on the kitchen table. There would be no room for supper.




 


By the time JB had left supper was well finished because while he was waiting to go home weren't the family at the table discussing foster-care ?


However,the morning photo's showed the table had been laid for breakfast so someone had been busy  the night before ?
Title: Re: The gun cupboard
Post by: Adam on August 08, 2018, 09:35:AM



 


By the time JB had left supper was well finished because while he was waiting to go home weren't the family at the table discussing foster-care ?


However,the morning photo's showed the table had been laid for breakfast so someone had been busy  the night before ?

The table was laid for breakfast ? So the rifle had been put away.

I know supper was finished before Bamber left. As Bamber was at supper when the fostering conversations took place.

But how could the four of them have supper if the rifle was sprawled across the kitchen table ? The first thing Bamber did when entering WHF was get the rifle.
Title: Re: The gun cupboard
Post by: Adam on August 08, 2018, 09:39:AM
Court of appeal:

'He said he had left the gun on the kitchen table with a full magazine and a box of ammunition nearby.'
Title: Re: The gun cupboard
Post by: Jane on August 08, 2018, 09:54:AM
The table was laid for breakfast ? So the rifle had been put away.

I know supper was finished before Bamber left. As Bamber was at supper when the fostering conversations took place.

But how could the four of them have supper if the rifle was sprawled across the kitchen table ? The first thing Bamber did when entering WHF was get the rifle.

But we only have his word for it that it was left out. It had to have been SAID that it was left out in order for Sheila -losing her grip on reality, we're encouraged to believe- to have become aware of it being there.
Title: Re: The gun cupboard
Post by: lookout on August 08, 2018, 10:02:AM
The table was laid for breakfast ? So the rifle had been put away.

I know supper was finished before Bamber left. As Bamber was at supper when the fostering conversations took place.

But how could the four of them have supper if the rifle was sprawled across the kitchen table ? The first thing Bamber did when entering WHF was get the rifle.





Supper had finished and the twins in bed by the time JB had left. Beside anything else,the rifle had been left on the monks bench and not the table which guilters have stated.
Title: Re: The gun cupboard
Post by: Adam on August 08, 2018, 10:05:AM
But we only have his word for it that it was left out. It had to have been SAID that it was left out in order for Sheila -losing her grip on reality, we're encouraged to believe- to have become aware of it being there.

It is very surprising that Bamber did not put the rifle back in the gun cupboard after returning inside.

It is also very surprising that Bamber put the rifle sprawling across the kitchen table, knowing supper was about to be served.

It is very surprising that the table was not already laid for supper prior to Bamber putting the rifle on it.

It is also very surprising that Nevill or June did not tell Bamber to remove the rifle from the kitchen table prior to supper.

It is also very surprising that Nevill or June did not remove the rifle from the kitchen table themselves before supper.

It is very surprising that the 4 of them ate supper with the rifle sprawled across the kitchen table.

It is very surprising that after having supper with the rifle on the table, Nevill, June or Bamber still didn't remove the rifle.

It is very surprising that the kitchen table was set for Breakfast. But the rifle was still not put away.
Title: Re: The gun cupboard
Post by: lookout on August 08, 2018, 10:11:AM
It is very surprising that Bamber did not put the rifle back in the gun cupboard after returning inside.

It is also very surprising that Bamber put the rifle sprawling across the kitchen table, knowing supper was about to be served.

It is very surprising that the table was not already laid for supper prior to Bamber putting the rifle on it.

It is also very surprising that Nevill or June did not tell Bamber to remove the rifle from the kitchen table prior to supper.

It is also very surprising that Nevill or June did not remove the rifle from the kitchen table themselves before supper.

It is very surprising that the 4 of them ate supper with the rifle sprawled across the kitchen table.

It is very surprising that after having supper with the rifle on the table, Nevill, June or Bamber still didn't remove the rifle.

It is very surprising that the kitchen table was set for Breakfast. But the rifle was still not put away.





The rifle had been used the night/early morning before the table had been set for breakfast.
Title: Re: The gun cupboard
Post by: IndigoJ on August 08, 2018, 10:18:AM




The rifle had been used the night/early morning before the table had been set for breakfast.

are you saying that someone set the table for breakfast after the murders took place?

or are you saying JB left the rifle on the table which had been set for breakfast as supper had already been eaten by the time he put the rifle on the table?
Title: Re: The gun cupboard
Post by: Adam on August 08, 2018, 10:19:AM
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5631.0

Panic over. Bamber said he left the rifle in the hallway. The myth is that it was left on the kitchen table in plain view for Sheila.
Title: Re: The gun cupboard
Post by: IndigoJ on August 08, 2018, 10:19:AM
JB said he left it on the table  , therefore he is stuck with it , and we are to believe that it was not put away or if it was put away it was then taken out again by SC
Title: Re: The gun cupboard
Post by: lookout on August 08, 2018, 10:24:AM
are you saying that someone set the table for breakfast after the murders took place?

or are you saying JB left the rifle on the table which had been set for breakfast as supper had already been eaten by the time he put the rifle on the table?





First of all JB had left the rifle on a bench/settle which is off the kitchen area. It was one of the newspapers when first reporting the tragedy that had said that the gun/rifle had been left on the table-------now whether it was found there during investigation I don't know. However the table must have been cleared the night before in order for it to be laid for breakfast.
Title: Re: The gun cupboard
Post by: IndigoJ on August 08, 2018, 10:26:AM
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5631.0

Panic over. Bamber said he left the rifle in the hallway. The myth is that it was left on the kitchen table in plain view for Sheila.

Ah! but from all i have read he said he left it in the kitchen
Title: Re: The gun cupboard
Post by: IndigoJ on August 08, 2018, 10:29:AM




First of all JB had left the rifle on a bench/settle which is off the kitchen area. It was one of the newspapers when first reporting the tragedy that had said that the gun/rifle had been left on the table-------now whether it was found there during investigation I don't know. However the table must have been cleared the night before in order for it to be laid for breakfast.

in the book Blood Relations- Roger Wilkes , page 314 , in evidence he said he left it in the "kitchen"

I've just got the Carol Ann Lee Book from the library and page 291 , "I put it down by the seat thing-the bench- unclipped the magazine and put it down on the side" JB in evidence
Title: Re: The gun cupboard
Post by: Adam on August 08, 2018, 10:40:AM
Ah! but from all i have read he said he left it in the kitchen

To be fair, a WS supercedes anything written down in books.

He may have told the police on the night he left it on the kitchen table, however his WS's on the 7th & 8th August do not say this.
Title: Re: The gun cupboard
Post by: IndigoJ on August 08, 2018, 10:47:AM
To be fair, a WS supercedes anything written down in books.

He may have told the police on the night he left it on the kitchen table, however his WS's on the 7th & 8th August do not say this.

the books were apparently relating what JB had said in evidence , did he say in the WS he left it in the hall?
Title: Re: The gun cupboard
Post by: Caroline on August 08, 2018, 10:57:AM
Ah! but from all i have read he said he left it in the kitchen

He said he left it standing near the wellington boots after removing the magazine and placing that on the bench/settle.
Title: Re: The gun cupboard
Post by: Caroline on August 08, 2018, 11:04:AM




First of all JB had left the rifle on a bench/settle which is off the kitchen area. It was one of the newspapers when first reporting the tragedy that had said that the gun/rifle had been left on the table-------now whether it was found there during investigation I don't know. However the table must have been cleared the night before in order for it to be laid for breakfast.

First of all, no he didn't - he left the magazine on the settle. It was one of the police officers that said Jeremy told him at the scene that he left it on the table. His WS all state that he left it standing by wellington boots which are next to the settle.
Title: Re: The gun cupboard
Post by: David1819 on August 08, 2018, 11:31:AM
Do you believe Sheila got the rifle from the kitchen table, or from the unlocked gun cupboard ?

I believe she got the rifle from near the kitchen doorway leading to the office. It would have been in plain view for her to take as she was placing her bloody panties into the kitchen bucket near the sink.
Title: Re: The gun cupboard
Post by: Caroline on August 08, 2018, 11:34:AM
I believe she got the rifle from near the kitchen doorway leading to the office. It would have been in plain view for her to take as she was placing her bloody panties into the kitchen bucket near the sink.

He said it was left next to the wellington boots, next to the settle - I presume where the coats are hanging.
Title: Re: The gun cupboard
Post by: lookout on August 08, 2018, 02:12:PM
First of all, no he didn't - he left the magazine on the settle. It was one of the police officers that said Jeremy told him at the scene that he left it on the table. His WS all state that he left it standing by wellington boots which are next to the settle.





So the newspaper quoted what the officer had told him ( journo ) as is what happens,yes ?
Title: Re: The gun cupboard
Post by: Caroline on August 08, 2018, 04:15:PM




So the newspaper quoted what the officer had told him ( journo ) as is what happens,yes ?

The officer who he said it to said so in his statement - it's on the forum somewhere but I give up posting sources as they are just hearsay.
Title: Re: The gun cupboard
Post by: Steve_uk on August 08, 2018, 04:40:PM
I believe she got the rifle from near the kitchen doorway leading to the office. It would have been in plain view for her to take as she was placing her bloody panties into the kitchen bucket near the sink.
..and reloading twice David? I really think the Bamberettes should make up their mind whether Sheila was in the grips of psychosis or not..http://www.jeremy-bamber.co.uk/the-rifle
Title: Re: The gun cupboard
Post by: lookout on August 08, 2018, 05:14:PM
Hammersley wasn't aware there was a gun cupboard until weeks later after the tragedy. Because he hadn't seen/noticed the gun cupboard he also hadn't seen staining which had run down and when asked if the stain had been examined he answered no. He'd answered no to a few things that weren't investigated.


Title: Re: The gun cupboard
Post by: Steve_uk on August 08, 2018, 05:18:PM
Hammersley wasn't aware there was a gun cupboard until weeks later after the tragedy. Because he hadn't seen/noticed the gun cupboard he also hadn't seen staining which had run down and when asked if the stain had been examined he answered no. He'd answered no to a few things that weren't investigated.
Were there any photographs of the carpet for blood trail? There must have been photographs of the lounge too, but nothing disclosed.
Title: Re: The gun cupboard
Post by: Jane on August 08, 2018, 05:20:PM
Hammersley wasn't aware there was a gun cupboard until weeks later after the tragedy. Because he hadn't seen/noticed the gun cupboard he also hadn't seen staining which had run down and when asked if the stain had been examined he answered no. He'd answered no to a few things that weren't investigated.

If you're referring to the understair cupboard, unless it had, written on it, "GUN CUPBOARD" why would anyone think it was such?
Title: Re: The gun cupboard
Post by: lookout on August 08, 2018, 05:24:PM
Were there any photographs of the carpet for blood trail? There must have been photographs of the lounge too, but nothing disclosed.





Not to my knowledge Steve. Sweepings from the various rooms were never carried out either.
I can only repeat that such pics if ever taken are held under PII.
Title: Re: The gun cupboard
Post by: lookout on August 08, 2018, 05:29:PM
If you're referring to the understair cupboard, unless it had, written on it, "GUN CUPBOARD" why would anyone think it was such?





This is a member of SOCO that we're talking about and apparently the gun cupboard is/was near the downstairs bathroom.
He'd admitted to not having done a full investigation  ::)
Title: Re: The gun cupboard
Post by: Jane on August 08, 2018, 05:36:PM




This is a member of SOCO that we're talking about and apparently the gun cupboard is/was near the downstairs bathroom.
He'd admitted to not having done a full investigation  ::)

But the gun cupboard that's linked to the tragedy is the understair cupboard that Jeremy said the gun wouldn't fit with the silencer attached. Were the other guns taken from a different place?
Title: Re: The gun cupboard
Post by: lookout on August 08, 2018, 05:49:PM
But the gun cupboard that's linked to the tragedy is the understair cupboard that Jeremy said the gun wouldn't fit with the silencer attached. Were the other guns taken from a different place?






AP's rifle was in the downstairs bathroom.
Title: Re: The gun cupboard
Post by: Jane on August 08, 2018, 05:56:PM





AP's rifle was in the downstairs bathroom.


Not in another gun cupboard, then? There has to be many little nooks and crannies in a house like WHF -ie a larder/walk in pantry. I wonder if they searched every one to see what they contained, and why would they, having found a gun cupboard, imagine there might be another?
Title: Re: The gun cupboard
Post by: lookout on August 08, 2018, 06:25:PM
Not in another gun cupboard, then? There has to be many little nooks and crannies in a house like WHF -ie a larder/walk in pantry. I wonder if they searched every one to see what they contained, and why would they, having found a gun cupboard, imagine there might be another?





It would have been much easier if we'd had pics of every room as to where what was where.
Title: Re: The gun cupboard
Post by: Jane on August 08, 2018, 06:35:PM




It would have been much easier if we'd had pics of every room as to where what was where.

Unless we knew what was where and what it was, I'm not certain how it would advantage us............other than to give us something else to argue about?
Title: Re: The gun cupboard
Post by: lookout on August 08, 2018, 06:40:PM
Unless we knew what was where and what it was, I'm not certain how it would advantage us............other than to give us something else to argue about?





Oh, I don't know. We'd have been more clear on which room was which in relation to where the actual scenes of crime were ( where the bodies were )
Title: Re: The gun cupboard
Post by: mike tesko on October 06, 2018, 08:25:AM
Is there any information about whether the gun cupboard would normally have been kept locked?

I find it odd that it was open and that JB stated he didn't replace a gun in the cupboard when he left that day

with two 6 year olds in the house i would have thought it a priority that it was kept locked and wouldn't that have been a condition of his gun licence?

Unfortunately, the so called gun cupboard situated in the downstairs office (the den) did not have a lock up on it!

Apparently guns and ammunitions were being supposedly stored all around the farmhouse, not only in the so called gun cupboard, but also in the downstairs toilet where Anthony Pargeter kept his small arsenal of weapons and a variety of Ammunitions for use with his .22 bolt action rifle, and shotguns! Additionally, there a bandolier full of shotgun cases found on the spiral staircase in one corner of the kitchen, and according to what Jeremy told police at one time or other, his father always kept a loaded shotgun under his bed in case of foxes trespassing in the Barnes, gardens and courtyard of the house...

This was the state of play at the time of this shooting tragedy..

When Jeremy left that evening he left the anschutz rifle on a settle In the back hallway, in the region of the downstairs office (the den), and not on the kitchen table as referred to by police officers! As you enter White House Farm from the rear Courtyard door, and go into the premises, the laundry room or the back kitchen as it was sometimes called, would be on your left next to the downstairs office where are the gun cupboard was located. The wooden settle that Jeremy speaks of, what's the Jesus on the right hand side of the hallway that you walked into one coming through that external door! In particular, the settle was on the right hand side of the back hallway just passed an internal door which lead into the kitchen!

I provide the following image which shows the settle in question (2nd image) which Jeremy spoke about, it is present from the bottom left hand corner of the photograph! Clearly shown, in the external doorway of the premises, and a kitchen sink units which is the laundry, not the kitchen! The downstairs office can be accessed through the white painted glass panelled door on the right!

The window through which PC Collins and PC Delgado peered into just before the farmhouse door was forced open with five sledgehammer blows can be seen in the background - upon peering through this window Collins and Delgado reported that they could see the body of a woman!

There was zero possibility of Collins and Delgado having been able to see Neville Bambers body which they supposedly mistook for the body of a woman when they peered into the laundry room window before cops entered the premises! Their claim that once they got into the kitchen they realised that the body they had seen was the body of Neville Bamber, and not the body of a woman, is a deliberate lie! Because from the vantage point of standing outside the laundry room window looking into the laundry as had Collins and Delgado, neither of the had a cat's in hell chance of seeing Neville Bambers body in the other room beyond the internal kitchen door which had caused police a problem preventing them from opening it to enable themselves to get into the kitchen in the first instance...
Title: Re: The gun cupboard
Post by: mike tesko on October 06, 2018, 09:17:AM
It is easy to see why the police could have been confused into thinking that the room beyond the Laundry room window which Collins and Delgado had peered into was a kitchen, but the Bambers referred to this room as the Laundry!