Jeremy Bamber Forum

OFF TOPIC => Off Topic => Topic started by: Hartley. on February 22, 2016, 10:54:PM

Title: EU Referendum
Post by: Hartley. on February 22, 2016, 10:54:PM
Just wondered if anybody had any thoughts on the EU Referendum?

Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Stephanie on February 22, 2016, 10:59:PM
Has anyone else noticed that Dave has started saying 'IF' and when a deal is made.......'IF' I can get what Britain needs.......'IF' I'm satisfied.....etc etc.
Yet still many EU countries despise and ridicule him enough to veto.
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Stephanie on February 22, 2016, 10:59:PM
And - Boris Johnson has decided to support Boris Johnson and anything else which will further the ambitions of Boris Johnson.
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Hartley. on February 22, 2016, 11:01:PM
And - Boris Johnson has decided to support Boris Johnson and anything else which will further the ambitions of Boris Johnson.

Yes, Boris wants to leave, as does Priti Patel and Will Quince.
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Hartley. on February 22, 2016, 11:01:PM
This is from Will Quince:
Colchester MP Will Quince says he'll vote to leave the European Union in the upcoming referendum.

He's given a full statement on his personal Facebook page explaining why, which is as follows:
 
"The Conservative Manifesto, on which I was proud to stand, promised to renegotiate Britain's membership of the EU. It then committed to put these changes to the British people in a straight in-out referendum by the end of 2017.
 
I was confident the renegotiation process would secure the changes the Prime Minister had committed to. A four year wait before EU workers could claim in-work benefits, child benefit or apply for social housing in the UK. A ban on sending child benefits to children of migrants living abroad. A requirement for EU migrants to have a job before coming to the UK.
 
I was also hopeful the Prime Minister could return more powers to Britain, over issues such as social and employment legislation and EU judges re-interpreting laws affecting our country. I also expected Britain to receive more powers on Home Affairs and Justice matters.  These were things the Prime Minster committed to address in 2009 after the ratification of the Lisbon Treaty. I hoped these issues could be tackled in a comprehensive renegotiation deal.
 
The Prime Minister is a skilled negotiator and the renegotiation has lasted a full nine months. But I'm afraid, in that time, the Prime Minister has just not been able to secure the changes we promised. I think it speaks volumes that, in the biggest renegotiation Britain has ever attempted with the EU, back by a democratic mandate from the British people, EU leaders have been unwilling to even grant Britain these relatively modest concessions".
 
It shows that the EU is just not really interested in the types of reforms that suits Britain. This year, the UK is forecast to contribute £15.3 billion to the EU budget (more money than we collect in Stamp Duty and Inheritance tax). I don't think it's unreasonable for us to ask for reforms that recognise Britain's unique relationship in the EU. Unfortunately, the EU has rejected these common-sense reforms.
 
That's why, on balance, I have decided to vote for Britain to leave the European Union. Britain has always had an uneasy relationship with the project. Every loss of sovereignty has been resented by a majority of the British people. There are big structural problems at an EU level that the British public has never accepted. The EU Commission - the main EU Government - is unelected. The Common Agricultural Policy still accounts for nearly one third of the whole EU budget. Tariff policies which perpetuate the cycle of poverty in poorer nations. I was optimistic that the renegotiation could reset our relationship with the EU and make it suitable in the 21st Century.  I don't think this has been achieved". 
 
Whichever way the referendum goes, I am confident that Britain has a bright future ahead of it. The sky will not fall in if Britain leaves the EU. We will still attract more inward investment that any country in the EU. If we voted to leave, we would be able to sign our own free trade deals with other nations. We could have points-based immigration system based on skills, not geography. And we could be sure that it was the elected British Parliament that made the laws that run Britain.
 
I will not be playing a role in the Leave campaign or campaigning in Colchester for a Leave vote. My number one priority remains my job as the MP for Colchester, working for local people. This is a matter that, ultimately, will be decided by the British people, not politicians. But many constituents have asked me which way I was voting and I wanted to let them know how I stood on this important matter".
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Hartley. on February 22, 2016, 11:02:PM
And - Boris Johnson has decided to support Boris Johnson and anything else which will further the ambitions of Boris Johnson.

I do love Boris though.  ;D
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Stephanie on February 22, 2016, 11:06:PM
 ;D
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: maggie on February 22, 2016, 11:10:PM
And - Boris Johnson has decided to support Boris Johnson and anything else which will further the ambitions of Boris Johnson.
;D Think he just may have e backed the wrong horse this time.  Hope so.
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Stephanie on February 22, 2016, 11:16:PM
I do love Boris though.  ;D

Imagine this scenario though - Johnson as PM and Trump as president..
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Hartley. on February 22, 2016, 11:19:PM
Imagine this scenario though - Johnson as PM and Trump as president..

I think Boris could be PM one day. Trump as President though .......shudder........ :o
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Stephanie on February 22, 2016, 11:20:PM
I think Boris could be PM one day. Trump as President though .......shudder........ :o

You may well be right!
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: maggie on February 22, 2016, 11:37:PM
You may well be right!
Cant bear the thought of either.
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: maggie on February 22, 2016, 11:39:PM
I think Boris could be PM one day. Trump as President though .......shudder........ :o
Boris is very right-wing behind his buffoon facade. Not my type at all!!
As for Trump, I believe he was a friend of the Clintons and a democrat at one time. I read a quote where he said if he ever stood for President he would stand as a Republican because they are brainless and easily fooled..... or words to that effect. Makes you wonder, well he's hard to believe whichever way you look at him, hard to make him worse than he already is. :'( :'(
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Caroline on February 22, 2016, 11:51:PM
I think Boris could be PM one day. Trump as President though .......shudder........ :o

You can say what you like about Trump BUT, he's NOT going bald!  >:(

(http://i2.listal.com/image/1848964/600full-donald-trump.jpg)

OH!  :-\ ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Stephanie on February 22, 2016, 11:56:PM
You can say what you like about Trump BUT, he's NOT going bald!  >:(

(http://i2.listal.com/image/1848964/600full-donald-trump.jpg)

OH!  :-\ ;D ;D ;D ;D

Ha ha! LOL
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Hartley. on February 22, 2016, 11:57:PM
You would just get the razor out SURELY?  ;D
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Stephanie on February 22, 2016, 11:59:PM
Anyone seen this https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aTjSkO4WO_k
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Stephanie on February 23, 2016, 12:01:AM
 :)
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: maggie on February 23, 2016, 12:05:AM
 :))
Anyone seen this https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aTjSkO4WO_k
:)) :)) :))
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Stephanie on February 23, 2016, 12:15:AM
You would just get the razor out SURELY?  ;D

Or do this..  ;D
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Stephanie on February 23, 2016, 12:16:AM
:)) :)) :)) :))

Good innit  ;D
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: maggie on February 23, 2016, 12:20:AM
 :'(
Good innit  ;D
:'( :'( :'(
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Caroline on February 23, 2016, 12:40:AM
Anyone seen this https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aTjSkO4WO_k

Ha, ha!! LOVE IT!  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Caroline on February 23, 2016, 12:41:AM
You would just get the razor out SURELY?  ;D

You would think someone would tell him - or maybe they did? (YOU'RE FIRED!  ;D ;D ;D ;D)

He's an archetypal snake in a suit!
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Caroline on February 23, 2016, 12:44:AM
Ha, ha!! This is hilarious!!  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

http://www.funnyworm.com/p/things-look-like-donald-trumps-hilarious-hair-style/
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Stephanie on February 23, 2016, 12:47:AM
You would think someone would tell him - or maybe they did? (YOU'RE FIRED!  ;D ;D ;D ;D)

He's an archetypal snake in a suit
!

Without a doubt!
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Stephanie on February 23, 2016, 12:52:AM
Ha, ha!! This is hilarious!!  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

http://www.funnyworm.com/p/things-look-like-donald-trumps-hilarious-hair-style/

Kirk and the Trumples - ha ha

Trump driving down the road campaigning - ha ha

Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Stephanie on February 23, 2016, 12:57:AM
You would think someone would tell him - or maybe they did? (YOU'RE FIRED!  ;D ;D ;D

He obviously doesn't care ha ha  ;D
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Caroline on February 23, 2016, 01:22:AM
These two were my favs  ;D ;D ;D ;D
 
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Neil on February 23, 2016, 06:51:AM
I have enjoyed watching Boris Johnson on 'Have I Got News For You', over the years.

The obsession with all things 'celebrity' in this country, drives me mad. 


Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: buddy on February 23, 2016, 09:40:AM
There is a lot of things that peeve me about the EU, just to mention a few.
1 bent cucumbers
2 potato size
3 fishing quotas
4 unfairness to british farmers
The end is almost endless with these stupid rules, also the wages they earn,not to forget the  leftist EU ministers.
After all that I still believe that we are better in than out.
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: maggie on February 23, 2016, 11:58:AM
I have enjoyed watching Boris Johnson on 'Have I Got News For You', over the years.

The obsession with all things 'celebrity' in this country, drives me mad.
I agree but Boris has exploited his 'celebrity' fame by acting like a buffoon on Have I got New For You' etc and yes he was funny on that but I think it's contrived, he's ruthlessly ambitious imo
Cannot bear the thought of living in a country with Boris Johnson as PM.
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: susan on February 23, 2016, 12:05:PM
I agree but Boris has exploited his 'celebrity' fame by acting like a buffoon on Have I got New For You' etc and yes he was funny on that but I think it's contrived, he's ruthlessly ambitious imo
Cannot bear the thought of living in a country with Boris Johnson as PM.

Maggie I kinda like Boris and think behind the buffoon is a very clever man.
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: maggie on February 23, 2016, 12:22:PM
Maggie I kinda like Boris and think behind the buffoon is a very clever man.
I know he's a clever man but I don't agree with his right wing philosophy one bit. xxx
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: susan on February 23, 2016, 12:40:PM
I know he's a clever man but I don't agree with his right wing philosophy one bit. xxx

Maggie :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: lookout on February 23, 2016, 01:53:PM
I'm pretty well divided about this.
Would leaving the EU halt the £350 million a week that goes there, benefitting our own citizens instead ?

If there was to be a " strike " from Russia,would we get the support from Europe if we vote out ?

This country will still remain trading with the rest of the world as it always has done ( out-vote )

We're already being dictated to by the EU.Are we still willing to allow them full control of how we run our own country ?

I think those of us who are older citizens are more likely to vote out/exit.

A lot will yet depend on whether all questions regarding this " move " will be answered honestly,for and against.

Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Caroline on February 23, 2016, 03:47:PM
I agree but Boris has exploited his 'celebrity' fame by acting like a buffoon on Have I got New For You' etc and yes he was funny on that but I think it's contrived, he's ruthlessly ambitious imo
Cannot bear the thought of living in a country with Boris Johnson as PM.

Can't stand him, he's an arse! Bumbling idiot!
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: John on February 27, 2016, 11:37:PM
I'm pretty well divided about this.
Would leaving the EU halt the £350 million a week that goes there, benefitting our own citizens instead ?

If there was to be a " strike " from Russia,would we get the support from Europe if we vote out ?

This country will still remain trading with the rest of the world as it always has done ( out-vote )

We're already being dictated to by the EU.Are we still willing to allow them full control of how we run our own country ?

I think those of us who are older citizens are more likely to vote out/exit.

A lot will yet depend on whether all questions regarding this " move " will be answered honestly,for and against.

It's nice to be able to agree with you for a change lookout.  The people of the UK are being fed the lie continually that we are dependent upon the EU for trade and for security, neither is true.  A mere 9% of the UK's GDP is trade with Europe, this is a paltry amount so leaving the EU will have no impact. What will impact however is that we will be able to tear up the existing trade agreements which are biased towards the EU.  The EU needs the UK and its buying power much more than we need it.  Consequently, leaving the EU will allow the UK to again strike deals which benefit us and not the rest of Europe.  As an example, European car manufacturers flood the UK with their products at inflated prices.  Once we are free from the customs tariffs imposed by the EU we will be able to buy cars at the price we want and not at the price they want to sell them.  The reason for this is simple, they need to flog us cars but we will be free to choose what to buy.

The UK has a cost of living 8% higher than it need be simply because of the EU imposed trade barriers.  We are forced to pay overinflated prices because of EU trade agreements.  Agreements which were put into place to protect the poorer States within the EU.  The UK is subsidising those poorer States to the tune of some £3 billion each and every year. The UK pays in some £10 billion into the EU every year but only gets back about £6 billion in so-called EU projects.  Better we keep the £10 billion and fund our own projects, why should the UK pay for impoverished former Soviet Bloc States?

Finally, much has been made of our national security which the stay campaigners claim will be jeopardised. The truth here is that the EU is a toothless dinosaur. If push came to shove the EU could do little if anything.  The EU cannot even deal with the migrant crisis with any consensus so expecting European States to act together in the face of Soviet aggression is a joke.  It is NATO we look to for security and not the EU.

The EU wants to dictate to us how many migrants we can take, they want to flood our towns and cities with people who have no cultural link to our country, this is unacceptable.  We need to control our borders, we need to be able to deal with illegal immigrants effectively and we can only do so out with the EU.

We don't need the EU, it is merely a staging post en route to a federal entity called the United States of Europe. It has destroyed many of our industries and alienated us from our traditional trading partners around the world.  The people shouting loudest about remaining in the EU have vested interests in doing so but then that is no surprise.  The vast majority of people in the UK have at last seen through this charade and will have the greatest opportunity since the end of the second world war to forge our own destiny.

 The sooner we get the hell out the better!   



Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: lookout on February 28, 2016, 10:53:AM
Agreed John.
It'll mark the end of a once Great Britain,a nation in which the rest of the world looked up to-------and who now walk all over it !!
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Neil on April 19, 2016, 07:38:PM
Michael Gove.....a generally unpopular politician, leading the leave campaign.

Gove and Cameron, old muckers who go way back, otherwise tightly in political allegiance.

Could he be a plant?

Am I beginning to sound like Mike?

Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: susan on April 19, 2016, 08:03:PM
Michael Gove.....a generally unpopular politician, leading the leave campaign.

Gove and Cameron, old muckers who go way back, otherwise tightly in political allegiance.

Could he be a plant?

Am I beginning to sound like Mike?

Hahaha Neil you could well be right all fair in love and politics :))
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: John on April 19, 2016, 08:47:PM
Michael Gove.....a generally unpopular politician, leading the leave campaign.

Gove and Cameron, old muckers who go way back, otherwise tightly in political allegiance.

Could he be a plant?

Am I beginning to sound like Mike?

Never liked Gove but his speech today was spot on.  The EU is a dead duck the minute the UK leaves it so who gives a toss about consequences.  :)
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: lookout on April 25, 2016, 11:14:AM
I thought I'd heard all the " scary,fairy stories " on leaving the EU,but here's a cracker : Brits going abroad on the continent will need visas.  :o
Nothing about those coming into the UK though. ::)
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: John on May 01, 2016, 08:25:PM
I think the question we should all be asking is, do we want out towns and villages to end up like London.  An ethnic and multicultural cesspit!

If you don't then Vote LEAVE!!
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: maggie on May 01, 2016, 08:52:PM
I think the question we should all be asking is, do we want out towns and villages to end up like London.  An ethnic and multicultural cesspit!

If you don't then Vote LEAVE!!
My family is comprised of an ethnic mix but I don't regard my house as a cesspit.
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: John on May 01, 2016, 09:12:PM
My family is comprised of an ethnic mix but I don't regard my house as a cesspit.

I'm lucky that in my region of the UK we don't have this problem but I feel for people who do.
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: maggie on May 01, 2016, 09:24:PM
I'm lucky that in my region of the UK we don't have this problem but I feel for people who do.
I think your words are pretty offensive John, I have tried to justify them and not over react but they are still very offensive imo.
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: John on May 02, 2016, 12:26:AM
I think your words are pretty offensive John, I have tried to justify them and not over react but they are still very offensive imo.

Everyone to their own maggie.  The vast majority of people in the UK do not want to see their communities swamped and their culture diluted by droves of immigrants coming into this country who care little for our way of life.  The only way this can ever be stopped is if we take back control of our country from those parasites in Brussels.

Vote leave for sure!
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: maggie on May 02, 2016, 10:33:AM
Everyone to their own maggie.  The vast majority of people in the UK do not want to see their communities swamped and their culture diluted by droves of immigrants coming into this country who care little for our way of life.  The only way this can ever be stopped is if we take back control of our country from those parasites in Brussels.

Vote leave for sure!
Everyone has a right to their own opinions but surely opinions should be based on fact and not on hysterical racist propaganda.  Of course cultural differences can be difficult but describing people of different  ethnic  backgrounds as living in 'cesspits' is racist and offensive and untrue.

There are plenty of British born Aryans who live in 'cesspits' in many town and country areas in this country.  I live in a country area and don't have to go far to see some disgusting dumps some 'rustic' locals have created.

We also have some Portuguese, Polish and other East Europeans in our very small town, haven't noticed any 'cesspits' appearing.
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: lookout on May 02, 2016, 12:40:PM
 I think we'll see the end of our Royalty if it's to be a vote to stay in the EU. 10,000 miles away in Australia,the Prime Minister,Malcolm Turnbull ( Liberal and Republican ) is pressing for this country to remain in the EU. Obama,another Republican is also forcing the issue to stay in,along with most of our own politicians,Corbyn and Cameron the leaders. Power and control is what it's all about and is rarely in the interests of its peoples.
You've only got to look/judge the type of people that want to stay in Europe.!! Enough said.
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: maggie on May 02, 2016, 12:55:PM
I think we'll see the end of our Royalty if it's to be a vote to stay in the EU. 10,000 miles away in Australia,the Prime Minister,Malcolm Turnbull ( Liberal and Republican ) is pressing for this country to remain in the EU. Obama,another Republican is also forcing the issue to stay in,along with most of our own politicians,Corbyn and Cameron the leaders. Power and control is what it's all about and is rarely in the interests of its peoples.
You've only got to look/judge the type of people that want to stay in Europe.!! Enough said.
With respect I don't agree Lookout, I believe the right wing in this country from politicians to the media want to be out for their on ends.  They want control back and the ordinary people will find they start losing the freedoms they have fought for. 
Do you think Boris Johnson wants to be out for any other reason than his own political ambitions?  Michael Gove is another one plus Liam Fox etc.   
Daily Mail, Express, S*n, Murdoch Press etc. 
I cannot see how Obama is any more of a republican than any other American except of course for members of the Republican Party.  Of course Boris Johnson seems to think the fact that his father is from Kenya and therefore Obama has Kenyan blood has something to do with it, maybe related to the fact he thinks all black people have Pickaninny Faces and Watermelon Smiles and maybe therefore cannot be trusted. :o
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: maggie on May 02, 2016, 01:08:PM
Everyone to their own maggie.  The vast majority of people in the UK do not want to see their communities swamped and their culture diluted by droves of immigrants coming into this country who care little for our way of life.  The only way this can ever be stopped is if we take back control of our country from those parasites in Brussels.

Vote leave for sure!
But John most of our culture has been formed by immigrants, the majprity of the people of this country have immigrant ancestry.
Angela Merkel is no left winger but she has admitted so many immigrants into Germany because their population of young people is falling and they need immigrants to swell the work force in the future.  That is the reason and also the same reason that we need immigration, the government should do more and should build infrastructure such as new schools and hospital and housing to make room for these people and help them to integrate.
I do agree that immigrants should be helped to integrate more easily into society but most of those mistakes were made many years ago and have little to do with East European immigration but rather immigration from the Indian subcontinent etc.  It would have been better and maybe kinder to have helped these people to integrate rather than live in ghettos which has kept many poor and on the edge of society.  Integration is happening in younger generations but it probably could have been achieved earlier.
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Neil on May 02, 2016, 01:36:PM
But John most of our culture has been formed by immigrants, the majprity of the people of this country have immigrant ancestry.
Angela Merkel is no left winger but she has admitted so many immigrants into Germany because their population of young people is falling and they need immigrants to swell the work force in the future.  That is the reason and also the same reason that we need immigration, the government should do more and should build infrastructure such as new schools and hospital and housing to make room for these people and help them to integrate.
I do agree that immigrants should be helped to integrate more easily into society but most of those mistakes were made many years ago and have little to do with East European immigration but rather immigration from the Indian subcontinent etc.  It would have been better and maybe kinder to have helped these people to integrate rather than live in ghettos which has kept many poor and on the edge of society.  Integration is happening in younger generations but it probably could have been achieved earlier.
Absolutely spot on!
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: John on May 02, 2016, 01:51:PM
Everyone has a right to their own opinions but surely opinions should be based on fact and not on hysterical racist propaganda.  Of course cultural differences can be difficult but describing people of different  ethnic  backgrounds as living in 'cesspits' is racist and offensive and untrue.

There are plenty of British born Aryans who live in 'cesspits' in many town and country areas in this country.  I live in a country area and don't have to go far to see some disgusting dumps some 'rustic' locals have created.

We also have some Portuguese, Polish and other East Europeans in our very small town, haven't noticed any 'cesspits' appearing.

It is only a matter of time.  These immigrants bring their backward cultures and their bigotries with them.  Whilst diluted in British society they are constrained but once they form greater numbers and then closed communities the same old behaviour usually raises its head.  You only need to look at Belgium and what is happening in some areas of Brussels which are virtually no-go areas to police.  Do we really want that in the UK?
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: John on May 02, 2016, 01:53:PM
I think we'll see the end of our Royalty if it's to be a vote to stay in the EU. 10,000 miles away in Australia,the Prime Minister,Malcolm Turnbull ( Liberal and Republican ) is pressing for this country to remain in the EU. Obama,another Republican is also forcing the issue to stay in,along with most of our own politicians,Corbyn and Cameron the leaders. Power and control is what it's all about and is rarely in the interests of its peoples.
You've only got to look/judge the type of people that want to stay in Europe.!! Enough said.

I totally agree lookout.
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: John on May 02, 2016, 02:02:PM
But John most of our culture has been formed by immigrants, the majprity of the people of this country have immigrant ancestry.
Angela Merkel is no left winger but she has admitted so many immigrants into Germany because their population of young people is falling and they need immigrants to swell the work force in the future.  That is the reason and also the same reason that we need immigration, the government should do more and should build infrastructure such as new schools and hospital and housing to make room for these people and help them to integrate.
I do agree that immigrants should be helped to integrate more easily into society but most of those mistakes were made many years ago and have little to do with East European immigration but rather immigration from the Indian subcontinent etc.  It would have been better and maybe kinder to have helped these people to integrate rather than live in ghettos which has kept many poor and on the edge of society.  Integration is happening in younger generations but it probably could have been achieved earlier.

Actually if you go back far enough the entire population of the UK have African ancestry but that isn't the point.  The point is that over 2000 years British and Irish peoples have come to be what we are today, forged by civil wars and conflict.  A civilised society with laws and respect for others, in many ways life in the UK is the envy of many other people around the world. We have to protect that society from those who would infiltrate and destroy it.

Allowing unfettered immigration of millions of Syrians into Europe as the Germans advocated was a recipe for disaster as Merkel found out.  It wasn't long before other countries took the Law into their own hands and put up the fences.  The European Union is a toothless entity incapable of controlling mass migration let alone providing protection to countries threaten by Russia.

We don't need migrants coming to the UK en masse, it has to be controlled.  The face of Britain has already been changed as can be seen in London and the Midlands by allowing generations of Indians, Africans and West Indians to come here.  Add to that the Russians and Eastern Europeans who have flocked here over the last few years for one reason or another.  Why should we allow an open door policy?  We are a small island nation, our society is being changed and for the worse imo.

Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: maggie on May 02, 2016, 02:25:PM
Actually if you go back far enough the entire population of the UK have African ancestry but that isn't the point.  The point is that over 2000 years British and Irish peoples have come to be what we are today, forged by civil wars and conflict.  A civilised society with laws and respect for others, in many ways life in the UK is the envy of many other people around the world. We have to protect that society from those who would infiltrate and destroy it.

Allowing unfettered immigration of millions of Syrians into Europe as the Germans advocated was a recipe for disaster as Merkel found out.  It wasn't long before other countries took the Law into their own hands and put up the fences.  The European Union is a toothless entity incapable of controlling mass migration let alone providing protection to countries threaten by Russia.

We don't need migrants coming to the UK en masse, it has to be controlled.
I will never agree with your opinions anymore than you will agree with mine and I accept that and leave it there.

I come from a city with the largest Irish and oldest Black and Chinese comunities in the country and we seem to be doing OK.
I still think your use of words such as 'cesspit' when alluding to other ethnicities are racist, insulting and unacceptable but that is just my opinion. 
I believe in the end the most important question for most people is economic and that is what will decide the results of this referendum as it decides every election.  Most people vote with their wallets when it comes to it.
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: John on May 02, 2016, 03:00:PM
I will never agree with your opinions anymore than you will agree with mine and I accept that and leave it there.

I come from a city with the largest Irish and oldest Black and Chinese comunities in the country and we seem to be doing OK.
I still think your use of words such as 'cesspit' when alluding to other ethnicities are racist, insulting and unacceptable but that is just my opinion. 
I believe in the end the most important question for most people is economic and that is what will decide the results of this referendum as it decides every election.  Most people vote with their wallets when it comes to it.

Immigration into the UK should be based on the Australian model where only immigrants with skills are considered. There should also be age restrictions and strict regulations governing their conduct whilst here.  Two strokes and your out for example.

Letting droves of uneducated skilless asylum seekers into the UK is a recipe for disaster and if it requires getting out of the EU to protect this country, so be it.
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: lookout on May 02, 2016, 03:36:PM
 I was just about to talk about Australia. Having been there a few times to visit my family. It's only when you've had the misfortune to visit a GP there that you appreciate,or realise how stupid your own country is in offering such services free. It cost me an arm and a leg for a consultation,then prescription charges on top of that. I needed antibiotics so the visit was vital. I once had a troublesome wisdom tooth,but couldn't even get treated at all and was told to buy painkillers.
Aside of this,in the mid-80's the family had decided to emigrate to Oz where we had family there. What a performance ! Full medicals including x-rays,etc,which none of us groused about as it was expected,and it was all costly. Then applications for visas and a letter from the Royal North Shore hospital as proof of where I was going to work,being the main applicant. My family were the sponsors,so they were scrutinised too,even though they had gone through all the practicalities,etc a few years previous.
You CANNOT get into Australia without permits,which are checked at immigration,and we had a family there with Aussie kids too.
However,after being given a date to emigrate,my husband sadly lost his sister and there was that much to do that Aus. had to go on the back burner.Then I lost my mother.I swear to this day that the reason for their deaths was that we'd told them we were emigrating.
However,this shows how difficult it is to enter the country,and they're tough on those who try it illegally,believe me,I've seen it happen. I've seen a few front doors bashed in by police and immigration.

The trouble with this country is as Maggie had said,there was nothing in place after entry------homes.
I can see Cameron's face now as he delivered his sickening speech welcoming those from the Eastern Bloc to enter in their hordes------oh,come in,etc etc,as if he was doing everyone a favour. Well he's done the complete opposite ! No arrangements or anything in place,nowhere for them to live,no jobs,the NHS bursting at the seams and GP surgeries unable to cope with the influx.
How can it be right and proper for these immigrants to sleep in the streets,airports,and underground tunnel areas ? Hard working people have to use these facilities daily and pass the heaps of bodies,while risking being robbed at the same time. What on earth were politicians thinking about ? 
I would definitely kick-off if I had to step over bodies to get to work. This country's a joke.!!
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: John on May 02, 2016, 05:25:PM
I was just about to talk about Australia. Having been there a few times to visit my family. It's only when you've had the misfortune to visit a GP there that you appreciate,or realise how stupid your own country is in offering such services free. It cost me an arm and a leg for a consultation,then prescription charges on top of that. I needed antibiotics so the visit was vital. I once had a troublesome wisdom tooth,but couldn't even get treated at all and was told to buy painkillers.
Aside of this,in the mid-80's the family had decided to emigrate to Oz where we had family there. What a performance ! Full medicals including x-rays,etc,which none of us groused about as it was expected,and it was all costly. Then applications for visas and a letter from the Royal North Shore hospital as proof of where I was going to work,being the main applicant. My family were the sponsors,so they were scrutinised too,even though they had gone through all the practicalities,etc a few years previous.
You CANNOT get into Australia without permits,which are checked at immigration,and we had a family there with Aussie kids too.
However,after being given a date to emigrate,my husband sadly lost his sister and there was that much to do that Aus. had to go on the back burner.Then I lost my mother.I swear to this day that the reason for their deaths was that we'd told them we were emigrating.
However,this shows how difficult it is to enter the country,and they're tough on those who try it illegally,believe me,I've seen it happen. I've seen a few front doors bashed in by police and immigration.

The trouble with this country is as Maggie had said,there was nothing in place after entry------homes.
I can see Cameron's face now as he delivered his sickening speech welcoming those from the Eastern Bloc to enter in their hordes------oh,come in,etc etc,as if he was doing everyone a favour. Well he's done the complete opposite ! No arrangements or anything in place,nowhere for them to live,no jobs,the NHS bursting at the seams and GP surgeries unable to cope with the influx.
How can it be right and proper for these immigrants to sleep in the streets,airports,and underground tunnel areas ? Hard working people have to use these facilities daily and pass the heaps of bodies,while risking being robbed at the same time. What on earth were politicians thinking about ? 
I would definitely kick-off if I had to step over bodies to get to work. This country's a joke.!!

An excellent post lookout.  Strangely the same thing happened to me just as we were about to move to Spain in 2000.  It took a year to sell our house in Scotland and we set off on completion for what was to be a week or so in Ireland to visit my mum.  No sooner had we arrived but she took ill, she was sent into hospital two weeks later for a scan, she never came out!  Her idiot GP had been treating her for osteoporosis when all along she had cancer which originated from a lump under her arm but had spread terribly.

We had no option but to put our plans on hold and six months later we set off.  I still wonder to this day if only we had stayed would events have turned out differently.

The UK has been looked at as a soft touch for years, successive governments have all had their own agendas for encouraging immigrants.  It has got to stop but there is a ground swell of people at the moment who have had enough of it.  I am lucky in that where I reside in the UK the immigrant is almost unheard of except for a few Poles.

Long may it last!
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: lookout on June 09, 2016, 08:38:PM
Age Pension :

Sweden-----£25,000 per year.
Spain------£26,630-max-earnings related.
Germany____£26,366.-earnings related.
France------£15,811-earnings related.
Ireland-----£10,415.

UK___£7,500.

Bottom of the league and 4th worst in the world !! SHAMEFUL !!

Will we be on a par with Europe if we vote to stay in ? NO CHANCE !!
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: maggie on June 09, 2016, 08:43:PM
Age Pension :

Sweden-----£25,000 per year.
Spain------£26,630-max-earnings related.
Germany____£26,366.-earnings related.
France------£15,811-earnings related.
Ireland-----£10,415.

UK___£7,500.

Bottom of the league and 4th worst in the world !! SHAMEFUL !!

Will we be on a par with Europe if we vote to stay in ? NO CHANCE !!
I agree it is shameful lookout but it certainly won't go up if we leave, it's nothing to do with the EU.
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: lookout on June 18, 2016, 12:10:PM
I agree it is shameful lookout but it certainly won't go up if we leave, it's nothing to do with the EU.





We're still answerable to Brussels though as it's they who call the shots on whatever this country does------or not do.
I note that Jeremy is very emphatic at remaining in the EU  ::) Which is where I differ from him as regards supporting him. Maybe he likes being dictated to ?
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: sami on June 22, 2016, 10:22:PM




We're still answerable to Brussels though as it's they who call the shots on whatever this country does------or not do.
I note that Jeremy is very emphatic at remaining in the EU  ::) Which is where I differ from him as regards supporting him. Maybe he likes being dictated to ?
maybe its because eu are against whole life sentences :)
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Caroline on June 22, 2016, 11:56:PM




We're still answerable to Brussels though as it's they who call the shots on whatever this country does------or not do.
I note that Jeremy is very emphatic at remaining in the EU  ::) Which is where I differ from him as regards supporting him. Maybe he likes being dictated to ?

The EU has nothing to do with how much pensions UK citizens receive. They don't call the shots on everything, there would be no point in having  UK government if that were the case.
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: sami on June 23, 2016, 10:01:AM
i think its wise to leave ,and take back control,theres been some scare mongering about defence but we dont need to be part of a gang we are a nuclear power,and no enemy dare attack us cause they now they will be wiped out,MADE IN BRITAIN used to mean alot before now you never see it,our farmers ,our fishermen get told what their must grow and how much fish they can catch.instead of buying products which we have grown ourselves ,we buy cheaper eu products ,killing our industries  DEAD ,since 1066 we have been on our own and coped fine,eu needs us we dont need eu,iam all for helping people but i cant allow my tax money to go to another country so a family thats never lived in britain get  my money cause one member is living here and claiming money for them,lets think of our own ,the countrys not doing well ,we need to spend our money on ourselves,we thank the usa for their help in the war and if they ever need ours we will be happy to oblige,but we cant be doing the usa dirty work,if they have a problem with russia thats they business nothing to do with us,i could go on but will take too long :)
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: maggie on June 25, 2016, 09:30:AM
Just wondered if anybody had any thoughts on the EU Referendum?
I have many thoughts on the result.

Anyone unhappy about EU result can sign a government petition for a second referendum on a point of law. Votes already over 800,000. 
This is why Ireland had to repeat their referendum a few years ago.
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Stephanie on June 25, 2016, 10:26:AM
I have many thoughts on the result.

Anyone unhappy about EU result can sign a government petition for a second referendum on a point of law. Votes already over 800,000. 
This is why Ireland had to repeat their referendum a few years ago.

Any ideas what the point of law is Maggie and where to find the petition?
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: sami on June 25, 2016, 10:39:AM
to be fair the 40% odd scottish people that wanted to leave the uk ,should also have invoked a petition ;)
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Stephanie on June 25, 2016, 11:25:AM
Anyone unhappy about EU result can sign a government petition for a second referendum on a point of law. Votes already over 800,000. 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/brexit-petition-for-second-eu-referendum-so-popular-the-government-sites-crashing-a7099996.html
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Stephanie on June 25, 2016, 11:30:AM
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/brexit-petition-for-second-eu-referendum-so-popular-the-government-sites-crashing-a7099996.html

Link to petition for anyone interested http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/brexit-petition-for-second-eu-referendum-so-popular-the-government-sites-crashing-a7099996.html
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: David1819 on June 25, 2016, 07:03:PM
I have many thoughts on the result.

Anyone unhappy about EU result can sign a government petition for a second referendum on a point of law. Votes already over 800,000. 
This is why Ireland had to repeat their referendum a few years ago.

Ireland did not have a referendum on leavening the EU. They had a referendum on the treaty of Lisbon then another when they changed the terms.

You can't just have another referendum because you don't like the way the vote went
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: maggie on June 25, 2016, 07:07:PM
Ireland did not have a referendum on leavening the EU. They had a referendum on the treaty of Lisbon then another when they changed the terms.

You can't just have another referendum because you don't like the way the vote went
I know I used the wrong words thank you David.  Do you think I'm stupid David?  I made a mistake I know very well you can't just have another referendum because you don't like the result.  I've been involved in politcs all my adult life.
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: David1819 on June 25, 2016, 07:22:PM
I know I used the wrong words thank you David.  Do you think I'm stupid David?  I made a mistake I know very well you can't just have another referendum because you don't like the result.  I've been involved in politcs all my adult life.

I wasn't directing that comment at you, I was referring to people in general

Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: maggie on June 25, 2016, 07:36:PM
I wasn't directing that comment at you, I was referring to people in general
Sorry am just fed up with the situation, wish we could just go again!!  So many people have now realised what their 'protest vote' may have done, between them and all those who want 'Britain to be great again' I am just about referendummed out. :'( :'(   :)
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: David1819 on June 25, 2016, 07:50:PM
Sorry am just fed up with the situation, wish we could just go again!!  So many people have now realised what their 'protest vote' may have done, between them and all those who want 'Britain to be great again' I am just about referendummed out. :'( :'(   :)

Don't buy into the scaremongering, Switzerland and Norway are not in the EU and they have more money in their pockets than we do.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2004rank.html (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2004rank.html)
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: sami on June 25, 2016, 07:52:PM
Sorry am just fed up with the situation, wish we could just go again!!  So many people have now realised what their 'protest vote' may have done, between them and all those who want 'Britain to be great again' I am just about referendummed out. :'( :'(   :)
maggie one thing that never dies in us is hope,it may just turn out fine .we will be in uncharterd waters thats for sure,but we have the spirit to make anything work if we try,even hitler couldnt break the spirit in us :)
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: sami on June 25, 2016, 07:55:PM
Don't buy into the scaremongering, Switzerland and Norway are not in the EU and they have more money in their pockets than we do.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2004rank.html (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2004rank.html)
iam with you on that one david,notice all who appear for the bbc look somewhat sad,cause their scaremongering didnt work as well as it did with the scots referendum ;)
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: maggie on June 25, 2016, 07:58:PM
Don't buy into the scaremongering, Switzerland and Norway are not in the EU and they have more money in their pockets than we do.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2004rank.html (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2004rank.html)
Norway is a democratic socialist country, they have got it right imo.  This country is a different thing altogether we have the right wingers in charge and they are in cahoots with the right wing press.
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: sami on June 25, 2016, 08:02:PM
was it sweden who said the the nordic block of countries are ready to do trade deals with us if we vote to leave
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: maggie on June 25, 2016, 08:14:PM
was it sweden who said the the nordic block of countries are ready to do trade deals with us if we vote to leave
don't know Sami but they aren't huge countries are they. Norway trades with EU and has more immigration than we do, he outers sort of omitted to mention that.  :o
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: sami on June 25, 2016, 08:20:PM
don't know Sami but they aren't huge countries are they. Norway trades with EU and has more immigration than we do, he outers sort of omitted to mention that.  :o
yes thats true,some people are taking it badly my mum in law and her sister were crying.uncertainty i guess about what may lye ahead
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: David1819 on June 25, 2016, 08:26:PM
don't know Sami but they aren't huge countries are they. Norway trades with EU and has more immigration than we do, he outers sort of omitted to mention that.  :o

Its not so much the number of immigrants that's the problem its having control over immigration that's important.

High immigration drives up house prices. and causes higher demand for services. It benefits mortgage lenders, landlords and big business! nobody else
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: maggie on June 25, 2016, 09:43:PM
Its not so much the number of immigrants that's the problem its having control over immigration that's important.

High immigration drives up house prices. and causes higher demand for services. It benefits mortgage lenders, landlords and big business! nobody else
We have more people emigrating than immigrants coming here. We are an aging population and need young people to come here.
The problems we have with services and housing is because of our national governments and has nothing to do with the EU. 
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Hartley. on June 20, 2019, 07:18:PM
Imagine this scenario though - Johnson as PM and Trump as president..

 :o
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Steve_uk on June 20, 2019, 09:58:PM
We have more people emigrating than immigrants coming here. We are an aging population and need young people to come here.
The problems we have with services and housing is because of our national governments and has nothing to do with the EU.
But young people get old. Are they coming here on licence or will they stay long-term, in which case we would need even more immigrants, when I'm sure there are old people in their own countries who need looking after.
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Caroline on June 26, 2019, 03:16:PM
:o

A prophecy fulfilled.  ???
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Caroline on June 26, 2019, 03:16:PM
We have more people emigrating than immigrants coming here. We are an aging population and need young people to come here.
The problems we have with services and housing is because of our national governments and has nothing to do with the EU.

Totally agree!
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Roch on June 27, 2019, 10:50:AM
We have more people emigrating than immigrants coming here. We are an aging population and need young people to come here.
The problems we have with services and housing is because of our national governments and has nothing to do with the EU.

Could it be that some of the people emigrating are doing so to get a better life elsewhere, in comparison to living standards in the UK?  And probably emigrating to countries that have a more strict criteria for immigration.
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Steve_uk on June 28, 2019, 07:01:PM
Could it be that some of the people emigrating are doing so to get a better life elsewhere, in comparison to living standards in the UK?  And probably emigrating to countries that have a more strict criteria for immigration.

Some people are retiring to countries with a better climate and are leaving the workforce altogether; others are emigrating for a better quality of life. The UK is still taking in immigrants at an unsustainable rate even if the numbers are slowing down.
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Roch on June 29, 2019, 12:21:AM
Some people are retiring to countries with a better climate and are leaving the workforce altogether; others are emigrating for a better quality of life. The UK is still taking in immigrants at an unsustainable rate even if the numbers are slowing down.

Agree.   I think the damage is done now.  Would have like us to have taken a much firmer stance a lot earlier, alongside a genuine 'ethical foreign policy' which I think was a term coined by New Labour.  Sadly it was just words.  We should not be assisting or supporting countries whose actions and policies cause refugees to occur in the first place.  As for economic migrants, it's complex but must be strictly micro-managed in the interests of the host country.
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Caroline on July 08, 2019, 09:25:AM
Agree.   I think the damage is done now.  Would have like us to have taken a much firmer stance a lot earlier, alongside a genuine 'ethical foreign policy' which I think was a term coined by New Labour.  Sadly it was just words.  We should not be assisting or supporting countries whose actions and policies cause refugees to occur in the first place.  As for economic migrants, it's complex but must be strictly micro-managed in the interests of the host country.

Bexit should not be about immigration.
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Steve_uk on July 09, 2019, 06:28:PM
Bexit should not be about immigration.
It's in the mix Caroline because low-skilled immigrants drive wages down.
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: maggie on July 10, 2019, 11:34:AM
It's in the mix Caroline because low-skilled immigrants drive wages down.
I think that is more to do with government attitudes rather than immigration per se.  What about nurses from within the EU?  're they immigrant workers or professionals? How much would a fruit farmer ever pay fruit pickers whether from UK or elsewhere unless the minimum wage was enforced?  In the area where I live pre free movement of people fruit picking was seasonal, casual, low paid work, often done by 'housewive's'.  Now that most women work at regular jobs, just like men, there is a definite need for fruit pickers from wherever, however all workers should be paid the minimum wage which should be raised to a decent standard.
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Steve_uk on July 10, 2019, 10:10:PM
I think that is more to do with government attitudes rather than immigration per se.  What about nurses from within the EU?  're they immigrant workers or professionals? How much would a fruit farmer ever pay fruit pickers whether from UK or elsewhere unless the minimum wage was enforced?  In the area where I live pre free movement of people fruit picking was seasonal, casual, low paid work, often done by 'housewive's'.  Now that most women work at regular jobs, just like men, there is a definite need for fruit pickers from wherever, however all workers should be paid the minimum wage which should be raised to a decent standard.
It's all very well taking nurses from Poland and I don't wish to disparage these individuals in any way. But there must be huge gaps now in these Eastern European countries and who is going to look after their old folk? The whole concept is a nonsense unless Brits make the journey to Poland, Bulgaria or wherever and this just isn't going to happen.
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Jane on July 11, 2019, 07:52:AM
It's all very well taking nurses from Poland and I don't wish to disparage these individuals in any way. But there must be huge gaps now in these Eastern European countries and who is going to look after their old folk? The whole concept is a nonsense unless Brits make the journey to Poland, Bulgaria or wherever and this just isn't going to happen.


My friend is theatre sister on the opthalmology ward of our large local hospital. She heads a team of nurses, NONE of whom are British. She has no fault to find with any of them, indeed, if they, along with ALL other nationalities were sent back to their countries of origin, she believes the NHS would collapse within a month. Further, she said there was once a time when a junior nurse, when asked to perform a caring -'menial'?- task, ie helping a patient to go to the bathroom or giving them a wash, they'd do it because they knew it was part of their training, NOW, she's required to ask would they mind doing it. On more than one occasion she's been told that the nurse in question was not doing a degree to wipe someone's bottom, and they refused. Academia and vocation, it seems, do not sit comfortably together. From the horse's mouth, our hospitals are not as clean, since outside cleaners have been employed, as they were when nurses were doing it. Could it be that nurses took more pride -and felt it to be their responsibility- in keeping patients safe, than do outside contractors?

Personally, I have no bias. I'm inclined towards employing the person best capable of doing the job. My only caveat is my concern for the very elderly whose hearing is declining, as, maybe, is their mental capacity. They don't always hear what their fellow countrymen say, trying to decipher strange accents at a time when they're at their most vulnerable, can be scary.
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Caroline on July 11, 2019, 01:11:PM
It's in the mix Caroline because low-skilled immigrants drive wages down.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46918729
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Caroline on July 11, 2019, 01:14:PM

My friend is theatre sister on the opthalmology ward of our large local hospital. She heads a team of nurses, NONE of whom are British. She has no fault to find with any of them, indeed, if they, along with ALL other nationalities were sent back to their countries of origin, she believes the NHS would collapse within a month. Further, she said there was once a time when a junior nurse, when asked to perform a caring -'menial'?- task, ie helping a patient to go to the bathroom or giving them a wash, they'd do it because they knew it was part of their training, NOW, she's required to ask would they mind doing it. On more than one occasion she's been told that the nurse in question was not doing a degree to wipe someone's bottom, and they refused. Academia and vocation, it seems, do not sit comfortably together. From the horse's mouth, our hospitals are not as clean, since outside cleaners have been employed, as they were when nurses were doing it. Could it be that nurses took more pride -and felt it to be their responsibility- in keeping patients safe, than do outside contractors?

Personally, I have no bias. I'm inclined towards employing the person best capable of doing the job. My only caveat is my concern for the very elderly whose hearing is declining, as, maybe, is their mental capacity. They don't always hear what their fellow countrymen say, trying to decipher strange accents at a time when they're at their most vulnerable, can be scary.

Better that than hearing no voice at all.
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Jane on July 11, 2019, 03:04:PM
Better that than hearing no voice at all.


On balance, indeed so.
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: maggie on July 11, 2019, 03:30:PM

My friend is theatre sister on the opthalmology ward of our large local hospital. She heads a team of nurses, NONE of whom are British. She has no fault to find with any of them, indeed, if they, along with ALL other nationalities were sent back to their countries of origin, she believes the NHS would collapse within a month. Further, she said there was once a time when a junior nurse, when asked to perform a caring -'menial'?- task, ie helping a patient to go to the bathroom or giving them a wash, they'd do it because they knew it was part of their training, NOW, she's required to ask would they mind doing it. On more than one occasion she's been told that the nurse in question was not doing a degree to wipe someone's bottom, and they refused. Academia and vocation, it seems, do not sit comfortably together. From the horse's mouth, our hospitals are not as clean, since outside cleaners have been employed, as they were when nurses were doing it. Could it be that nurses took more pride -and felt it to be their responsibility- in keeping patients safe, than do outside contractors?

Personally, I have no bias. I'm inclined towards employing the person best capable of doing the job. My only caveat is my concern for the very elderly whose hearing is declining, as, maybe, is their mental capacity. They don't always hear what their fellow countrymen say, trying to decipher strange accents at a time when they're at their most vulnerable, can be scary.
All true Jane.  Training used to be done mainly on the wards with 6 week blocks being tutored.  The menial jobs were very much part of training as it is the basis of nursing.  While doing personal care you build a relationship with a patient which is important in building trust which enables a nurse to assess and understand their patient, so much of this has been lost in recent years and it has left a gap in nursing care which has knock on consequences on various levels.  Of course in those days as a student nurse I worked alongside commonwealth student nurses rather than those trained in different European countries.
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: maggie on July 11, 2019, 03:43:PM
It's all very well taking nurses from Poland and I don't wish to disparage these individuals in any way. But there must be huge gaps now in these Eastern European countries and who is going to look after their old folk? The whole concept is a nonsense unless Brits make the journey to Poland, Bulgaria or wherever and this just isn't going to happen.
No Steve in the nursing profession there are enough trained nurses remaining in their home countries  in fact in Spain so many nurses have left the UK and gone home due to the uncertainty over Brexit that Spain now has a surplus of nurses at least some of whom will move on to other countries.  I’m sure similar situation occur in the care sector.  We don’t have enough young people to fill these important roles in this country and need immigration.
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Jane on July 11, 2019, 04:53:PM
All true Jane.  Training used to be done mainly on the wards with 6 week blocks being tutored.  The menial jobs were very much part of training as it is the basis of nursing.  While doing personal care you build a relationship with a patient which is important in building trust which enables a nurse to assess and understand their patient, so much of this has been lost in recent years and it has left a gap in nursing care which has knock on consequences on various levels.  Of course in those days as a student nurse I worked alongside commonwealth student nurses rather than those trained in different European countries.


Maggie, it's my opinion that nursing is one of those jobs -no, vocations- which is probably best done hands on. The apprenticeship route with day release for the necessary academic component. I can't help but feel it all worked SO much better when there was a Matron, ward sisters, staff nurses, and nurses at all levels from senior to junior. Where did SRN's fit in, and how were they different from those who were RCN's? Also, what's the difference between accepting commonwealth student nurses and rejecting fully trained nurses from European countries? Is it to do with training standards?
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Caroline on July 11, 2019, 07:28:PM
All true Jane.  Training used to be done mainly on the wards with 6 week blocks being tutored.  The menial jobs were very much part of training as it is the basis of nursing.  While doing personal care you build a relationship with a patient which is important in building trust which enables a nurse to assess and understand their patient, so much of this has been lost in recent years and it has left a gap in nursing care which has knock on consequences on various levels.  Of course in those days as a student nurse I worked alongside commonwealth student nurses rather than those trained in different European countries.

None of that now, there is almost no rapport at all.
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: maggie on July 12, 2019, 09:13:AM
None of that now, there is almost no rapport at all.
I know Caroline,that interaction between patient and nursing staff seems to be actively discouraged in many areas there days. It is the basis of all nursing, all very well to be technically excellent but it is only half the story.  We used to have the best training in the world but sadly we have fallen behind most of Europe.
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Caroline on July 12, 2019, 04:15:PM
I know Caroline,that interaction between patient and nursing staff seems to be actively discouraged in many areas there days. It is the basis of all nursing, all very well to be technically excellent but it is only half the story.  We used to have the best training in the world but sadly we have fallen behind most of Europe.

I think that's true of just about everything now and I fully believe that if we leave the EU iut will only get worse.
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: maggie on July 12, 2019, 10:00:PM
I think that's true of just about everything now and I fully believe that if we leave the EU iut will only get worse.
Agreed, just come back from Spain, fabulous country now.  We lead the way and as Europe rebuilt they took our blueprints and modernised them, they now have great welfare services and we are wrecked and just getting ready to finish ourselves off.   In Germany state pension is 26k a year and France £24 so we seem to be missing something.
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Caroline on July 12, 2019, 11:09:PM
Agreed, just come back from Spain, fabulous country now.  We lead the way and as Europe rebuilt they took our blueprints and modernised them, they now have great welfare services and we are wrecked and just getting ready to finish ourselves off.   In Germany state pension is 26k a year and France £24 so we seem to be missing something.

We certainly do! We've become lost and seem to be trawling through one weak, inept leader after another. Most politicians are in it for themselves, siphoning off as much as they can from expenses while more and more 'working' people are having to use food banks. Someone flushed the chain and we're disappearing up the U bend!

Just watched a 3 part series about the area I grew up in. When I was kid, there was a massive sense of community and people were proud to work. It was a mining area and it just pains me to see how it is now. Although the programme makers have portrayed it to be much worse than it is, it's certainly bad enough. This is Britain folks!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p07dhcfb
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: maggie on July 13, 2019, 10:40:AM
We certainly do! We've become lost and seem to be trawling through one weak, inept leader after another. Most politicians are in it for themselves, siphoning off as much as they can from expenses while more and more 'working' people are having to use food banks. Someone flushed the chain and we're disappearing up the U bend!

Just watched a 3 part series about the area I grew up in. When I was kid, there was a massive sense of community and people were proud to work. It was a mining area and it just pains me to see how it is now. Although the programme makers have portrayed it to be much worse than it is, it's certainly bad enough. This is Britain folks!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p07dhcfb
Well the privileged are back in charge.  Low wages are not the fault of immigrants they are the fault of the appalling government over the past 10 years.  It is true what you say about mining areas they were devastated and have never really recovered.  I know that Liverpool has benefitted massively from EU grants as I believe has Newcastle but our own government has diminished so many benefits and protection gained by the working people over generations. It’s all about a quick buck.  Unions gave workers a sense of community and control over their lives and with the loss of that sense of identity many have turned to Farage and Brexit as a source of hope but he is a wolf in sheep’s clothing only out for himself and his mates such as Trump, Banks, Assange and goodness only knows who else
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Caroline on July 23, 2019, 01:22:PM
Well the privileged are back in charge.  Low wages are not the fault of immigrants they are the fault of the appalling government over the past 10 years.  It is true what you say about mining areas they were devastated and have never really recovered.  I know that Liverpool has benefitted massively from EU grants as I believe has Newcastle but our own government has diminished so many benefits and protection gained by the working people over generations. It’s all about a quick buck.  Unions gave workers a sense of community and control over their lives and with the loss of that sense of identity many have turned to Farage and Brexit as a source of hope but he is a wolf in sheep’s clothing only out for himself and his mates such as Trump, Banks, Assange and goodness only knows who else

Now the games begin!
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Steve_uk on July 23, 2019, 01:34:PM
As far as immigration is concerned I hope we can move to a points based system or at least issue work permits which have to be renewed after a period so at least we're not lumbered with low-skilled non-English speaking immigrants who can only become a burden to our welfare state in the long term.
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: lookout on July 23, 2019, 05:12:PM
I think it's a bit late in the day for that Steve. It should have been implemented years ago.
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Steve_uk on July 23, 2019, 05:36:PM
I think it's a bit late in the day for that Steve. It should have been implemented years ago.
The problem is that London, the South East, Greater Manchester to name but three regions are full, whilst Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland probably could take more.
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: lookout on July 23, 2019, 06:08:PM
The problem is that London, the South East, Greater Manchester to name but three regions are full, whilst Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland probably could take more.




According to past census's both Northern Ireland and Wales have had their share  ( quite a high percentage )of immigrants over the years though Scotland seems to have had fewer. It's England that's had the bulk obviously.
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: lookout on July 23, 2019, 06:10:PM
Not all wagons leaving Dover are searched either.
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Steve_uk on August 01, 2019, 08:42:PM
From today's Times newspaper:

Tax break to halt young brain drain

Poland has abolished income tax for more than two million young people in an attempt to reverse its "brain drain" and lure graduates back from overseas.

Nearly 1.7 million Poles, including 580,000 with degrees, have found work in other European countries, leaving the mother country with an acute shortage of skilled labour, in particular scientists, doctors and IT specialists.

Mateusz Morawiecki, 51, the prime minister, told parliament: "We have to draw the young people back. Over the past 30 years Poland has asked too much of its young people and has not done enough to help them. Employers were not ready to raise salaries for their young workers, so we will do it through scrapping their income tax".

As of today, Poles under the age of 26 earning up to 85,500 zlotys (£18,200) a year will be exempted from the 18 per cent basic rate of tax.

The reform makes good on one of the central pledges made to voters by Mr. Morawiecki's arch-conservative Law and Justice Party before the European parliamentary elections in May.

Poland's average annual income per person is about £5500, compared with £15,500 across the EU as a whole. Those leaving are overwhelmingly the young: the country's median age has risen from 36 in 2000 to 41 last year.

The UK is home to the largest chunk of the Polish diaspora at 764,000.
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Caroline on August 19, 2019, 12:24:PM
From today's Times newspaper:

Tax break to halt young brain drain

Poland has abolished income tax for more than two million young people in an attempt to reverse its "brain drain" and lure graduates back from overseas.

Nearly 1.7 million Poles, including 580,000 with degrees, have found work in other European countries, leaving the mother country with an acute shortage of skilled labour, in particular scientists, doctors and IT specialists.

Mateusz Morawiecki, 51, the prime minister, told parliament: "We have to draw the young people back. Over the past 30 years Poland has asked too much of its young people and has not done enough to help them. Employers were not ready to raise salaries for their young workers, so we will do it through scrapping their income tax".

As of today, Poles under the age of 26 earning up to 85,500 zlotys (£18,200) a year will be exempted from the 18 per cent basic rate of tax.

The reform makes good on one of the central pledges made to voters by Mr. Morawiecki's arch-conservative Law and Justice Party before the European parliamentary elections in May.

Poland's average annual income per person is about £5500, compared with £15,500 across the EU as a whole. Those leaving are overwhelmingly the young: the country's median age has risen from 36 in 2000 to 41 last year.

The UK is home to the largest chunk of the Polish diaspora at 764,000.

The polish have has a positive impact on the UK

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/3556852/Why-Britain-needs-Polish-migrants.html
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: lookout on August 19, 2019, 02:14:PM
The Polish are hard workers and are the only ones who'll do the menial tasks that our own won't.

I voted Remain and am sorely disappointed in this outcome. To Remain is to believe in democracy and freedom of movement which the Brexit vote is blocking. Why ?
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Jane on August 19, 2019, 03:19:PM
Not all wagons leaving Dover are searched either.


Perhaps not, but the Port Authorities clearly believed our coach to be full of potential terrorists and made us all get off to have our passports individually scrutinized, forcing us to wait another hour for a sailing!!!
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: lookout on August 19, 2019, 04:55:PM

Perhaps not, but the Port Authorities clearly believed our coach to be full of potential terrorists and made us all get off to have our passports individually scrutinized, forcing us to wait another hour for a sailing!!!




I've had that happen to my friend and myself in the past coming back from Northern France.
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Steve_uk on August 19, 2019, 08:18:PM
The polish have has a positive impact on the UK

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/3556852/Why-Britain-needs-Polish-migrants.html
Of course they have. Do you think the elderly, handicapped or infirm have come to the UK? Why has the Polish government offered a bribe to their young when they have already lost revenue from the talented workforce they have lost?
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Steve_uk on August 19, 2019, 08:20:PM
The Polish are hard workers and are the only ones who'll do the menial tasks that our own won't.

I voted Remain and am sorely disappointed in this outcome. To Remain is to believe in democracy and freedom of movement which the Brexit vote is blocking. Why ?
I'm not sure what you mean lookout. The democracy is the 17.4 million who voted to leave.
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: lookout on August 20, 2019, 04:40:PM
No Steve, by leaving, people lose their freedom to remain in this country, freely. Those who live outside the EU are expected to earn a ridiculous annual salary or they're deported, even if they've lived in this country for a long time, usually up to 10 years. Is this right and fair ? 
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: lookout on August 20, 2019, 05:20:PM
The back-stop in NI is anti-democratic. BJ has no right to enforce this.
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Caroline on August 20, 2019, 07:35:PM
No Steve, by leaving, people lose their freedom to remain in this country, freely. Those who live outside the EU are expected to earn a ridiculous annual salary or they're deported, even if they've lived in this country for a long time, usually up to 10 years. Is this right and fair ?

I also voted to stay but people living here from the EU aren't being forced to leave. Where did you get that from?
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Caroline on August 20, 2019, 07:36:PM
The back-stop in NI is anti-democratic. BJ has no right to enforce this.

BJ doesn't want the backstop.
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Steve_uk on August 20, 2019, 07:53:PM
No Steve, by leaving, people lose their freedom to remain in this country, freely. Those who live outside the EU are expected to earn a ridiculous annual salary or they're deported, even if they've lived in this country for a long time, usually up to 10 years. Is this right and fair ?
I think it's fair because there is a large enough pool of low-skilled immigrants for indigenous Brits to choose from in this country already, without bringing in more from overseas. All 3 million EU citizens currently residing in the UK will be able to stay whatever their income, though things will change for new arrivals after October 31.
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Jane on August 20, 2019, 08:14:PM
I think it's fair because there is a large enough pool of low-skilled immigrants for indigenous Brits to choose from in this country already, without bringing in more from overseas. All 3 million EU citizens currently residing in the UK will be able to stay whatever their income, though things will change for new arrivals after October 31.


I think part of the problem is that we have those here in receipt of benefits who are capable of doing work of some sort, but prefer not to, ergo, we give the jobs to immigrants who are not only prepared to work but also manage to send money back to their families whilst earning wages that some wouldn't be prepared to get out of bed for. Personally, if there's blame to be laid, I'd lay it at the door of the system which allows it.

For future reference, I'd like to see the sort of points system used by Australia. ie, if you have a job to come to, can support yourself, can speak the language and are prepared to follow our rules, you're welcome.
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: lookout on August 20, 2019, 08:25:PM
I think it's fair because there is a large enough pool of low-skilled immigrants for indigenous Brits to choose from in this country already, without bringing in more from overseas. All 3 million EU citizens currently residing in the UK will be able to stay whatever their income, though things will change for new arrivals after October 31.




Freedom of movement will come to a halt. Diane Abbott is right about it being chaotic as EU citizens will no longer have the right to live and work in the UK after a no-deal Brexit.   
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Steve_uk on August 20, 2019, 08:38:PM



Freedom of movement will come to a halt. Diane Abbott is right about it being chaotic as EU citizens will no longer have the right to live and work in the UK after a no-deal Brexit.
I think this is a negotiating tactic and I wish the country would pull together as it did in wartime. Unfortunately due to its disparate nature I'm not optimistic.
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: lookout on August 20, 2019, 08:40:PM
The hostilities this will create towards many countries will be unimaginable as well as the EU nationals who have settled into this country legally but without the relevant paperwork who will have to scramble to register by the 31st of October. Problems galore !
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Caroline on August 20, 2019, 09:01:PM
The hostilities this will create towards many countries will be unimaginable as well as the EU nationals who have settled into this country legally but without the relevant paperwork who will have to scramble to register by the 31st of October. Problems galore !

Legally but without the relevant paperwork?  ???
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Jane on August 20, 2019, 09:02:PM
I think this is a negotiating tactic and I wish the country would pull together as it did in wartime. Unfortunately due to its disparate nature I'm not optimistic.


Sadly Steve, I fear Britain is a very different place to the one in the war. I believe at that time the country fought and stood together for the common good. Since then there are those here who are prepared to take the benefits we give them whilst plotting to destroy our way of life.
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Caroline on August 20, 2019, 09:10:PM

Sadly Steve, I fear Britain is a very different place to the one in the war. I believe at that time the country fought and stood together for the common good. Since then there are those here who are prepared to take the benefits we give them whilst plotting to destroy our way of life.

That and the fact that almost have of the population voted to stay in the EU. I don't want to leave and can't be happy that we are.
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Jane on August 20, 2019, 09:37:PM
That and the fact that almost have of the population voted to stay in the EU. I don't want to leave and can't be happy that we are.


I voted to stay. Seeing the EU as a gang, I can quite see why people join gangs. It's better than being the odd one out and being ganged up on. I see the disarray in Parliament as being a microcosm of what's going on nationally. Yes, there was a majority and although it was hardly close enough to call, morally, I guess it has to be adhered to. Trouble is, we were never asked what conditions we wanted to be applied. We were only asked if we wanted to leave or stay.
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Steve_uk on August 21, 2019, 01:48:AM
The hostilities this will create towards many countries will be unimaginable as well as the EU nationals who have settled into this country legally but without the relevant paperwork who will have to scramble to register by the 31st of October. Problems galore !
There's a longer deadline. https://www.gov.uk/settled-status-eu-citizens-families
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Caroline on August 21, 2019, 08:47:AM

I voted to stay. Seeing the EU as a gang, I can quite see why people join gangs. It's better than being the odd one out and being ganged up on. I see the disarray in Parliament as being a microcosm of what's going on nationally. Yes, there was a majority and although it was hardly close enough to call, morally, I guess it has to be adhered to. Trouble is, we were never asked what conditions we wanted to be applied. We were only asked if we wanted to leave or stay.

It's a mess, even now they don't have a plan.
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: lookout on August 21, 2019, 12:13:PM
I have a copy from one individual on the importance of staying in the EU. Written by none other than JB himself and believe you me it makes far more sense than what any politician has had to say.
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Caroline on August 21, 2019, 06:48:PM
I have a copy from one individual on the importance of staying in the EU. Written by none other than JB himself and believe you me it makes far more sense than what any politician has had to say.

Well, I would prefer to stay in but  aman locked up as long as he has, is out of touch with the outside world and I think he may have more personal reasons for wishing to remain.
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Roch on August 21, 2019, 11:01:PM
I was originally a narrow leave voter. On the cusp. I think that if all those who reluctantly claimed they would abide by the result had actually done so, we'd be in far better situation now.  Negotiating from a position of weakness and disarray has not only proved ineffective but has damaged our standing in the world. Theresa May was a disaterous shoehorn, forced upon us. She has damaged her own career reputation in the process, which was needless.

Corbyn, who was riding high in 2017, has come out of this very damaged; as a result of being forced to accommodate parliamentary party members who've shown bad faith.

The way to a 'good' deal was to all-out prepare for no- deal as early as possible.

Also, it's pathetic how we were drip fed patronising news that we were 'making progress' in negotiations, when no such progress was actually being made. Embarrassing, like something from the 1950's.

As for the Lib Dems.. Their blatant opportunism is sickening. They took a gamble in hoovering up the remain vote and it paid off. Prior to that, they were dead in the water.

As for Caroline Lucas.. Bizarre.
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Caroline on August 22, 2019, 01:04:PM
I was originally a narrow leave voter. On the cusp. I think that if all those who reluctantly claimed they would abide by the result had actually done so, we'd be in far better situation now.  Negotiating from a position of weakness and disarray has not only proved ineffective but has damaged our standing in the world. Theresa May was a disaterous shoehorn, forced upon us. She has damaged her own career reputation in the process, which was needless.

Corbyn, who was riding high in 2017, has come out of this very damaged; as a result of being forced to accommodate parliamentary party members who've shown bad faith.

The way to a 'good' deal was to all-out prepare for no- deal as early as possible.

Also, it's pathetic how we were drip fed patronising news that we were 'making progress' in negotiations, when no such progress was actually being made. Embarrassing, like something from the 1950's.

As for the Lib Dems.. Their blatant opportunism is sickening. They took a gamble in hoovering up the remain vote and it paid off. Prior to that, they were dead in the water.

As for Caroline Lucas.. Bizarre.

They are abiding by the result - there was no time limit attached to the referendum question, nor was there anything to suggest HOW we would leave. At the moment Boris thinks he is playing a clever game by being seen to try and get a new deal. However, he knew fine well that he wouldn't be able to do so and will simply blame the EU when he comes back empty handed. We're still being drip fed bullshit - they still have no plan, even though they claim they do. It will be a mess - just wait for the panic buyers to hit the shops and for the violence to escalate in Northern Ireland. What price sovereignty? You certainly can't eat it! Interestingly, the word in Latin, it derived from the work 'superanus' - how ironic is that?

As for Corbyn, he should have stuck by his principles - that's the problem with politicians, they lose their principles as they rise up the chain!

Perhaps the lib dems can see that leaving the EU is suicide - previously I would never have voted for them but now there is no other option for me.
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: David1819 on August 22, 2019, 05:06:PM
Out of the top five wealthiest countries in the world (according to the world bank) in terms of GDP nominal. Three of those five countries are European countries not in the EU. Switzerland, Iceland and Norway.

The mean GDP for all western,central and northern EU states is lower than those not in the Union.

Meanwhile Greece, Portugal, Spain, Italy and Cyprus have had to endure a sovereign debt crisis that is still not over. As a result of giving control of monetary policy to the EU Central Bank.

According to the International Monetary Fund only four other countries in the world have declined  economically more than Greece in the 10 years. Those are Libya, Yemen, Venezuela and Equatorial Guinea. This is how an EU member state is doing?

There are countries that while in the EU have ended up in shit creek without a paddle. Thus the EU being seen as an entity of good or something to be desired is myopic and misguided.

The EU only benefits two groups of people. Those of run it and investors in government bonds.
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Steve_uk on August 22, 2019, 09:10:PM
Well, I would prefer to stay in but  aman locked up as long as he has, is out of touch with the outside world and I think he may have more personal reasons for wishing to remain.
He thinks he can get a better outcome from European judges if necessary than British ones.
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: David1819 on August 22, 2019, 09:32:PM
He thinks he can get a better outcome from European judges if necessary than British ones.

We are not leaving the ECHR. Brexit won’t make any difference to him.
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Steve_uk on August 22, 2019, 10:59:PM
We are not leaving the ECHR. Brexit won’t make any difference to him.
It's not certain, though I bow to your superior knowledge. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/apr/25/uk-must-leave-european-convention-on-human-rights-theresa-may-eu-referendum
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: David1819 on August 23, 2019, 07:47:AM
It's not certain, though I bow to your superior knowledge. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/apr/25/uk-must-leave-european-convention-on-human-rights-theresa-may-eu-referendum

Well that article claims it has nothing to do with Brexit.  :-\
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Steve_uk on August 23, 2019, 07:52:AM
Well that article claims it has nothing to do with Brexit.  :-\
So what? Once again your posts are pure conjecture, entertaining as they may be at times, faute de mieux.
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Caroline on August 23, 2019, 01:23:PM
It's not certain, though I bow to your superior knowledge. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/apr/25/uk-must-leave-european-convention-on-human-rights-theresa-may-eu-referendum

Think the point is that if we have sovereignty, we can make our own laws and choose to reject whatever we wish - including leaving the ECRH. 
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: David1819 on August 23, 2019, 03:58:PM
So what? Once again your posts are pure conjecture, entertaining as they may be at times, faute de mieux.

What is your opinion on leaving the EU?
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Steve_uk on August 23, 2019, 04:07:PM
What is your opinion on leaving the EU?
From a purely selfish point of view since I'm going to retire to Spain eventually the pound will be stronger if we remain.  But I can't agree with the EU structure so I'm a Brexiteer. If we're not careful we'll have the worst of both worlds: still paying in yet with no influence.

I agree with former Soviet leader Mikael Gorbachev:

The most puzzling development in politics during the last decade is the apparent determination of Western European leaders to re-create the Soviet Union in Western Europe.
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: lookout on August 23, 2019, 04:12:PM
Any particular part of Spain, Steve ?
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Steve_uk on August 23, 2019, 04:28:PM
Any particular part of Spain, Steve ?
Well after living in Manchester I don't want too much rain, so probably Andalucia.
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: lookout on August 23, 2019, 05:37:PM
Well after living in Manchester I don't want too much rain, so probably Andalucia.





My friend and myself once enjoyed a month is Southern Spain, visiting each province in the region. Fabulous and I couldn't blame anyone for leaving our dreary weather behind.
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Roch on August 23, 2019, 10:46:PM
Perhaps the lib dems can see that leaving the EU is suicide - previously I would never have voted for them but now there is no other option for me.

Presumably then, you are not one of those who claimed they would abide by the result? Good luck if you think the Lib Dem’s are trustworthy.
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Caroline on August 24, 2019, 12:30:AM
Presumably then, you are not one of those who claimed they would abide by the result? Good luck if you think the Lib Dem’s are trustworthy.

Abide by it? What choice do I have? The EU are not going to change their mind and BJ has made it even harder for them to do so with all his BS. My worries are concerned with Northern Ireland and the fact that there is no plan in place for no deal.

I hope that when (if) we leave it turns out to be a positive outcome, but I just can't see it.

When did I say I thought the LD's are trustworthy? That's the point - NONE OF THEN ARE!
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Roch on August 24, 2019, 11:26:PM
Abide by it? What choice do I have? The EU are not going to change their mind and BJ has made it even harder for them to do so with all his BS. My worries are concerned with Northern Ireland and the fact that there is no plan in place for no deal.

I hope that when (if) we leave it turns out to be a positive outcome, but I just can't see it.

When did I say I thought the LD's are trustworthy? That's the point - NONE OF THEN ARE!

A vote for Lib Dems is not an attempt to abide by the democratic result - it's an attempt to undermine it.  This is a party that was all but dead: it had been abandoned by the electorate as a result of the Clegg / Cameron era.  What they have done is very cynical.  They spotted an opportunity i.e. 'Remain' and then tried to claim ownership of that brand, to resurrect their own political livelihood.

You're levelling accusations that should be levelled at the EU.  The EU saw that the democratic victory for Leave was narrow, quickly realising that it could conspire with elements of 'Remain' in order to undermine the result, i.e. thwart it from being properly actioned.  This in no way represents 'abiding by' or 'respecting' the result of the referendum. 

The blame for a 'no deal' exit should be placed squarely at the door of the co-conspirators within the EU and 'Remain'.  The reason for this is that had both those pro-EU factions truly abided by the result (as repeatedly but disingenuously claimed) we could have exited already, with some kind of deal that was deemed to represent 'Brexit' among the majority of people.

'Northern Ireland' and the Irish border is a mechanism, deliberately deployed by the EU, in order to create a problematic dilemma for the UK's exit from the EU.
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Caroline on August 25, 2019, 01:38:AM
A vote for Lib Dems is not an attempt to abide by the democratic result - it's an attempt to undermine it.  This is a party that was all but dead: it had been abandoned by the electorate as a result of the Clegg / Cameron era.  What they have done is very cynical.  They spotted an opportunity i.e. 'Remain' and then tried to claim ownership of that brand, to resurrect their own political livelihood.

You're levelling accusations that should be levelled at the EU.  The EU saw that the democratic victory for Leave was narrow, quickly realising that it could conspire with elements of 'Remain' in order to undermine the result, i.e. thwart it from being properly actioned.  This in no way represents 'abiding by' or 'respecting' the result of the referendum. 

The blame for a 'no deal' exit should be placed squarely at the door of the co-conspirators within the EU and 'Remain'.  The reason for this is that had both those pro-EU factions truly abided by the result (as repeatedly but disingenuously claimed) we could have exited already, with some kind of deal that was deemed to represent 'Brexit' among the majority of people.

'Northern Ireland' and the Irish border is a mechanism, deliberately deployed by the EU, in order to create a problematic dilemma for the UK's exit from the EU.

How is you telling me how I should vote 'democratic'?

You seem to be saying that the EU should have just agreed to any and all demands - that was never going to happen and anyone who thought it would, is simply naive. The Irish Border is a real issue and a problematic result of things having not been properly thought through from the start!
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: lookout on August 25, 2019, 11:00:AM
The whole problem is that those who voted Brexit hadn't got a clue, initially, what they were voting for or what it entailed. A sheer lack of information was the biggest problem and no explanation of the truth.

I don't trust any politician right now to get this country out of the turmoil it's in presently.
 Boris is bluffing and flustering his way through what appears to him to be a circus show while Trump is looking at the UK as another State to add to his list of conquests under his control.

God help us !
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Caroline on August 25, 2019, 12:06:PM
The whole problem is that those who voted Brexit hadn't got a clue, initially, what they were voting for or what it entailed. A sheer lack of information was the biggest problem and no explanation of the truth.

I don't trust any politician right now to get this country out of the turmoil it's in presently.
 Boris is bluffing and flustering his way through what appears to him to be a circus show while Trump is looking at the UK as another State to add to his list of conquests under his control.

God help us !

Once again Lookout, I totally agree with you. When asked this question leavers tend to say that they did know what they were voting for, they were voting for 'sovereignty' - which is a theoretical concept and not a plan - it's an ideal. All very well wanting to 'rule the waves' again but without a plan, we're more likely to 'sink without trace'!  ;)
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: maggie on August 25, 2019, 01:09:PM
The whole problem is that those who voted Brexit hadn't got a clue, initially, what they were voting for or what it entailed. A sheer lack of information was the biggest problem and no explanation of the truth.

I don't trust any politician right now to get this country out of the turmoil it's in presently.
 Boris is bluffing and flustering his way through what appears to him to be a circus show while Trump is looking at the UK as another State to add to his list of conquests under his control.

God help us !
I agree with you Lookout, the vast majority had no idea at all the just ‘wanted their country back’ whatever that meant, think it was at the least racist.  The Irish border is the goal street, we have to respect he Good Friday Agreement, if that is lost we are in real trouble.
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Jane on August 25, 2019, 01:14:PM
The whole problem is that those who voted Brexit hadn't got a clue, initially, what they were voting for or what it entailed. A sheer lack of information was the biggest problem and no explanation of the truth.

I don't trust any politician right now to get this country out of the turmoil it's in presently.
 Boris is bluffing and flustering his way through what appears to him to be a circus show while Trump is looking at the UK as another State to add to his list of conquests under his control.

God help us !

Once again Lookout, I totally agree with you. When asked this question leavers tend to say that they did know what they were voting for, they were voting for 'sovereignty' - which is a theoretical concept and not a plan - it's an ideal. All very well wanting to 'rule the waves' again but without a plan, we're more likely to 'sink without trace'!  ;)

I fully concur. I'm happier being part of this particular 'gang' than being an outsider.  I don't believe there to be Utopia awaiting us when we leave. I don't believe any of our existing laws will change and I doubt that new ones will be made which will render happy those who now aren't. Our current state has arisen because the result of the vote was so close. I don't think any of us had any clear view of what would happen, which is hardly surprising given that the government had no definite plans -or none they were sharing!!!

I absolutely don't believe that because 'we stood alone during the war and won it single handed', we can do so now  -I wasn't here during the war, but my understanding is that if you weren't as country dweller, you may have starved because goods we relied on from other countries couldn't get here. Since then, we've given away our industries and farmers are selling off land or diversifying because, for various reasons, they're no longer growing the crops they once were. I do believe "WE" stood shoulder to shoulder.............then! but we're a very different country now and I suspect that there are those here who would like nothing more than to see this country dissolve into total anarchy. It would suit their agenda.

I like how BJ seems to be waving the flag, but he is a politician, and he is renown for his bluster.............I fear we flounder.
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Steve_uk on August 25, 2019, 01:17:PM
I'm saddened by the negativity. As Caroline said in an earlier post it's not really about immigration or hatred of foreigners: I just want to elect directly the people who govern me. There's no such thing as exiting with No Deal anyway: just leaving on World Trade Organization terms.
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Caroline on August 25, 2019, 01:17:PM
I fully concur. I'm happier being part of this particular 'gang' than being an outsider.  I don't believe there to be Utopia awaiting us when we leave. I don't believe any of our existing laws will change and I doubt that new ones will be made which will render happy those who now aren't. Our current state has arisen because the result of the vote was so close. I don't think any of us had any clear view of what would happen, which is hardly surprising given that the government had no definite plans -or none they were sharing!!!

I absolutely don't believe that because 'we stood alone during the war and won it single handed', we can do so now  -I wasn't here during the war, but my understanding is that if you weren't as country dweller, you may have starved because goods we relied on from other countries couldn't get here. Since then, we've given away our industries and farmers are selling off land or diversifying because, for various reasons, they're no longer growing the crops they once were. I do believe "WE" stood shoulder to shoulder.............then! but we're a very different country now and I suspect that there are those here who would like nothing more than to see this country dissolve into total anarchy. It would suit their agenda.

I like how BJ seems to be waving the flag, but he is a politician, and he is renown for his bluster.............I fear we flounder.

Agreed Jane, no doubt when new laws are written (if they ever are), they won't be the ones that Brexiteers wanted but that will be the fault of the remainers  ???
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Caroline on August 25, 2019, 01:30:PM
I'm saddened by the negativity. As Caroline said in an earlier post it's not really about immigration or hatred of foreigners: I just want to elect directly the people who govern me. There's no such thing as exiting with No Deal anyway: just leaving on World Trade Organization terms.

But for the most part, you are governed by those directly elected here. This is an interesting article https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36473105.

I saw someone argue that state pension here were less than in most EU countries as an argument to leave, but state pension here, has nothing to do with the EU. If you're going to argue points for leaving, then at least people should get their facts right.
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Steve_uk on August 25, 2019, 01:57:PM
But for the most part, you are governed by those directly elected here. This is an interesting article https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36473105.

I saw someone argue that state pension here were less than in most EU countries as an argument to leave, but state pension here, has nothing to do with the EU. If you're going to argue points for leaving, then at least people should get their facts right.
The problem is that the European Union is moving on: to a single army, a single currency, a single diplomatic service. I'm afraid I'm old-fashioned enough to want the Westminster parliament 100% sovereign. The MPs can earn their money and the European Commission can butt out.
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Roch on August 25, 2019, 04:16:PM
The whole problem is that those who voted Brexit hadn't got a clue, initially, what they were voting for or what it entailed.

I know tonnes of Leave voters. They knew perfectly well what they were voting for.  Severance from EU membership and institutions. It is some of the remain voters who are in complete shock about what this entails. Not the leave voters. I assure you, they are at ease! All knew there would disruption and some potential pain initially.
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: lookout on August 25, 2019, 04:44:PM
I know tonnes of Leave voters. They knew perfectly well what they were voting for.  Severance from EU membership and institutions. It is some of the remain voters who are in complete shock about what this entails. Not the leave voters. I assure you, they are at ease! All knew there would disruption and some potential pain initially.





Roch I'm surrounded by Leavers and particularly across the water in Liverpool and I must admit that their sheepishness is evident among those who I know as they weren't expecting the fiasco that it's turned out to be, nor the many restrictions which could be in force.
Freedom of movement has always been the motto of this country which is why so many wish to come and live here and leaving the EU will desecrate trade to here. All this is doing is creating a division between us and Europe which is criminal as we've enjoyed years of peace with Europe and I was hoping to keep it that way.
As for the Irish border, we have a lot riding on keeping the Good Friday Agreement or else that's the end of the peace there too.
It appears that politicians are/seem intent on creating this division between countries. Why ?
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: lookout on August 25, 2019, 04:55:PM
Whatever happens now we don't want or need a no-deal at any cost least of all a hard border with Ireland and its peace process coming under threat.
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Caroline on August 25, 2019, 05:23:PM
I know tonnes of Leave voters. They knew perfectly well what they were voting for.  Severance from EU membership and institutions. It is some of the remain voters who are in complete shock about what this entails. Not the leave voters. I assure you, they are at ease! All knew there would disruption and some potential pain initially.

Well, obviously that is the BASIC they were voting for but they had no idea of the shit storm it would cause and never gave a thought to the Northern Ireland problem because they didn’t know it would be an issue - hence they were not I full control of the facts!

Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Steve_uk on August 25, 2019, 05:59:PM
I don't mind a second referendum in a few years but out of respect for the 2016 result you have to implement that first.
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Steve_uk on October 29, 2019, 11:06:PM
You can now have your say in the forthcoming General Election of 12 December 2019:

If you want Boris Johnson's deal you can vote Conservative.

If you want to cancel Brexit altogether you can vote Lib Dem.

If you want a new deal followed by a second referendum you can vote Labour.

If you want a no-deal Brexit you can vote for Nigel Farage.
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: maggie on October 30, 2019, 07:15:PM
You can now have your say in the forthcoming General Election of 12 December 2019:

If you want Boris Johnson's deal you can vote Conservative.

If you want to cancel Brexit altogether you can vote Lib Dem.

If you want a new deal followed by a second referendum you can vote Labour.

If you want a no-deal Brexit you can vote for Nigel Farage.
If you want a decent NHS, welfare state etc you can vote Labour.  If you want a privatised or devalued NHS and deregulated workers rights and pay vote for Johnson.
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Caroline on October 30, 2019, 10:17:PM
If you want a decent NHS, welfare state etc you can vote Labour.  If you want a privatised or devalued NHS and deregulated workers rights and pay vote for Johnson.

I would break all of my fingers before voting for that lying SOS!
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Steve_uk on January 31, 2020, 10:35:PM
https://youtu.be/c08wiEyVuak
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: sami on January 31, 2020, 10:48:PM
seems like the illegitimate son of angela merkel n donald trump has won the election.the description is from rory bremner
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Steve_uk on February 18, 2020, 06:18:PM
It's not looking bright for a stress-free trade deal: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-51549662
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Steve_uk on March 26, 2020, 12:41:PM
A spotlight on the Norwegian referendum of 1972: https://youtu.be/TgPJv9_XEZg
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: lookout on March 27, 2020, 10:54:AM
80,000 needed on farms for fruit and veg picking !
Granted, many Europeans will think twice because of the shocking pay and conditions but this virus will also halt production.

People will have to revert back to the 50's that if you want fresh produce from a nearby farm---get it yourself/ pick/dig your own.
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: nugnug on March 27, 2020, 11:14:AM
https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/489774-birx-cautions-against-inaccurate-models-predicting-signficant-coronavirus
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Reader on April 01, 2020, 10:52:AM
get it yourself/ pick/dig your own.
Recently, I asked someone I know whether they were okay in regards to food, and they replied they'd got eggs that they wanted direct from a farm.
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Steve_uk on August 01, 2020, 07:29:PM
Italy on the brink: https://youtu.be/SrdwoLZG3Ok
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Steve_uk on August 03, 2020, 08:33:AM
The EU slush fund..https://youtu.be/KelpEt0lTDs
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Steve_uk on August 18, 2020, 09:08:AM
Young Muslim men aged 18-26 coming in from a safe country..https://youtu.be/kVasr1YYZT0?list=WL
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Roch on August 18, 2020, 10:08:AM
Young Muslim men aged 18-26 coming in from a safe country..https://youtu.be/kVasr1YYZT0?list=WL

Don't mind Farage to an extent but he can seem a bit Alan Partridge at times.  This dinghy issue is being used to stir up division, with globalist remainers still smarting from 2016 on one side and everyone else on the other side. Unfortunately, 'everyone else' does include a right wing component who may hold certain prejudices and display a lack of empathy. To be honest it's hard to tell fact from fiction, which just about somes up the world we live in.
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Steve_uk on August 18, 2020, 11:03:AM
Don't mind Farage to an extent but he can seem a bit Alan Partridge at times.  This dinghy issue is being used to stir up division, with globalist remainers still smarting from 2016 on one side and everyone else on the other side. Unfortunately, 'everyone else' does include a right wing component who may hold certain prejudices and display a lack of empathy. To be honest it's hard to tell fact from fiction, which just about somes up the world we live in.
When I look back to the genuine Jewish refugee crisis of the 1930s there's really no comparison whatsoever, plus we have the terrorist element today which we didn't have then. We won't stop these opportunistic young men and the criminal gangs until word gets round that applications will be processed offshore and have agreements with these third countries, which I know may prove difficult. https://youtu.be/XlIiJ8b37EM
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Steve_uk on October 18, 2020, 07:44:PM
An excellent analysis of the history of Brexit negotiations by ex-barrister Alexander Mercouris. https://youtu.be/wwDIKxxgsQ4

It's such a pity there was a professional scandal in his recent past. https://www.legalcheek.com/2017/07/barrister-who-was-disbarred-after-forging-lady-hale-letter-sued-for-200000-by-ex-client/
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Steve_uk on November 30, 2020, 05:42:PM
It's not looking good for a deal at this late stage: https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/brexit/eu-will-not-fall-into-brexit-negotiating-trap-uk-told/ar-BB1btZlb?ocid=msedgntp
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Real Justice on November 30, 2020, 09:06:PM
It's not looking good for a deal at this late stage: https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/brexit/eu-will-not-fall-into-brexit-negotiating-trap-uk-told/ar-BB1btZlb?ocid=msedgntp
Brexit seems to have taken a back seat with a lot of people at moment Steve due to COVID, we’ve had it rammed down our throats for four years now, I sometimes ask is a trade deal that important, do we still want to be dictated by France and Germany?  I think our trade with Europe will diminish even further i think Britain's trade is going to shift away from Europe anyway because other markets will grow faster than Europe.  The thing that amuses me more than anything, listening to SNP from Scotland sucking up to the EU and trying to sell Britain out.
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Steve_uk on November 30, 2020, 10:31:PM
Brexit seems to have taken a back seat with a lot of people at moment Steve due to COVID, we’ve had it rammed down our throats for four years now, I sometimes ask is a trade deal that important, do we still want to be dictated by France and Germany? I think our trade with Europe will diminish even further i think Britain's trade is going to shift away from Europe anyway because other markets will grow faster than Europe.  The thing that amuses me more than anything, listening to SNP from Scotland sucking up to the EU and trying to sell Britain out.
It looks like Polly Toynbee knows more than the rest of us..https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/boris-johnson-will-get-a-deal-but-it-will-be-a-betrayal-of-the-brexiters/ar-BB1buOks?ocid=msedgntp
Title: Re: EU Referendum
Post by: Real Justice on December 01, 2020, 07:36:AM
It looks like Polly Toynbee knows more than the rest of us..https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/boris-johnson-will-get-a-deal-but-it-will-be-a-betrayal-of-the-brexiters/ar-BB1buOks?ocid=msedgntp
Its obvious Steve both sides want a deal, the only problem with the EU, they want to quash the threat that’s looming from other Countries who could possibly leave as well, Italy, Poland and Hungary.  So they still want to tie us to Europe and not become the Independent Country we sought, in other words they want to make us pay.  It’s been like a game of Chess, a Chess game that’s gone on too long with both sides looking for a win, I think the EU has the advantage personally, it’s whether they want to play out that advantage and grind out a difficult end game with not much time left, or walk away from talks or offer a draw.  Both sides will claim victory in any event, while us the Pawn’s in the middle (voters) will probably be sacrificed to save their face.