Jeremy Bamber Forum

JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: Roch on September 14, 2020, 09:40:PM

Title: What caused Sheila Caffell to kill her parents?
Post by: Roch on September 14, 2020, 09:40:PM
Here is one suggestion...

Four years ago, the CT announced that a letter several pages long, had come to light addressed to 'Mummy', which was claimed as referring to Sheila's natural mother Christine (and claimed that Sheila described June Bamber as 'Mother').

They claimed there were a 'number of angry references to her ex-husband the twin’s father, Colin Caffell who wanted full custody of the children'.

Apparently within the letter, Sheila indicated that she would be 'in the other world,' after the police arrive, and wrote 'my babys and me we go to our rest.'

Furthermore, she made reference to 'us' being put into a deep trench after the police arrive.

The CT claimed to have received a 'preliminary overview of the material' 'provided to a handwriting expert - who believes that the material was written by Sheila Caffell'.

Apparently the letter was revealed in 2011.  I am unsure why it was not acted upon sooner.  However, I'm aware that the CT were made up of volunteers and were/are dependent upon funding for expert assessments / forensic analysis etc. 

As most people know, Jeremy Bamber claimed there was a conversation around the dinner table regarding 'fostering' about which, people have argued either wouldn't have been mentioned at all - or - may have been mentioned in the context extra help for Sheila.  Perhaps Nevill and June were worried that they might lose contact with the twins, if the situation continued without some type of intervention or influence brought to bear?  Perhaps they sensed that in the future Colin might act decisively, to shield the twins from June's religious bent?

We know that instead of portraying Sheila as having been enraged or merely annoyed or sulky, Bamber portrays her as having seemed vacant.  If his portrayal is accurate, what may have been behind her vacant stare?  What might Sheila have ruminated on, as late evening crossed over in to the small hours? 

Could it be that Sheila had lost all hope that she could keep her babies with her in this world?  Did she reason that if she could not keep her babies with her in this world, her only choice was to keep them with her in the next?

When Sheila had 'gone berserk' with one of Nevill's guns, could it be that in her own mind, she was simply enacting the safeguarding of her self and her babies as a unit, together, in the next world?

Is it possible that either Nevill or June or Nevill and June were killed by Sheila because they interfered with Sheila's mission to send herself and her babies to their rest? 

If Sheila has shot the twins and thinks they may be dead - she has to then ensure that she herself is killed, in order to be with them on the other side.  Otherwise, she will have sent her babies over to the other side without the protection of their mother.  If Sheila was prevented from joining her babies by the intervention of one or both parents, might she not have experienced anguish, panic and an incredible sense of urgency to complete her mission? 

If Sheila has shot the twins but is unsure as to whether they are dead, the situation is no better for her - because there is now no going back.  Again, in this scenario, Sheila must complete her mission.   

We cannot know to what extent Sheila may have experienced auditory or visual hallucinations but we can try to imagine her as experiencing thoughts that we would view as warped but which she may have viewed as being cogent and meaningful.  Perhaps even forceful to the point of being demonic in their insistence (that she carry out her duty). 

I don't think Nevill or June stood much of a chance. They didn't know what they were up against.  It was the small hours and the situation was one of pure dread.  Nevill is presented with a situation of having to either kill or save his own daughter - who may be locked up for years in an institution.  He cant save her without possibly losing his own life.  Can he bring himself to kill her?  Can he overpower her with his wounds?  What will happen to his wife if he fails?  The anguish and dread they must have felt regarding the fate of the twins is horrific.
 
Title: Re: What caused Sheila Caffell to kill her parents?
Post by: David1819 on September 14, 2020, 09:49:PM
If I remember correctly, Sheila hated June.

Here is an interesting snipped from a study.



Mothers, particularly, are the group with the highest risk
of becoming victims of homicide by patients with schizophrenia
(Devaux et al., 1974; Estroff et al., 1998; McKnight
et al., 1966). In this study, the rate of matricide was also
higher than the rate of patricide, and female sex of the victim
was a significant factor that raised the risk of parricide
20-fold. Raising a child is primarily the mother’s responsibility
and they are the caregivers who spend the most time
with the patients. Thus, they play major roles in forcing
medications, forcing hospitalisations, and providing discipline.
In this process, long-term conflicts between mothers
and patients can occur, and mothers can be direct targets of
longstanding delusional ideas of persecution or paranoid
ideation or both.

source- Clinical features of parricide in
patients with schizophrenia (2008)
Title: Re: What caused Sheila Caffell to kill her parents?
Post by: Roch on September 14, 2020, 09:57:PM
If I remember correctly, Sheila hated June.

Here is an interesting snipped from a study.



Mothers, particularly, are the group with the highest risk
of becoming victims of homicide by patients with schizophrenia
(Devaux et al., 1974; Estroff et al., 1998; McKnight
et al., 1966). In this study, the rate of matricide was also
higher than the rate of patricide, and female sex of the victim
was a significant factor that raised the risk of parricide
20-fold. Raising a child is primarily the mother’s responsibility
and they are the caregivers who spend the most time
with the patients. Thus, they play major roles in forcing
medications, forcing hospitalisations, and providing discipline.
In this process, long-term conflicts between mothers
and patients can occur, and mothers can be direct targets of
longstanding delusional ideas of persecution or paranoid
ideation or both.

source- Clinical features of parricide in
patients with schizophrenia (2008)


I have amended the last paragraph of my post, since you posted.  I have already considered this.  I would say that it's possible that the 'interference' towards Sheila's aims that night may have came from both a hated mother and a loved father. 

We do not know in which context she viewed either, when the incident was unfolding - because we cannot experience her exact thinking or hallucinations (if they were present).
Title: Re: What caused Sheila Caffell to kill her parents?
Post by: JackieD on September 14, 2020, 09:58:PM
Here is one suggestion...

Four years ago, the CT announced that a letter several pages long, had come to light addressed to 'Mummy', which was claimed as referring to Sheila's natural mother Christine (and claimed that Sheila described June Bamber as 'Mother)’.

They claimed there were a 'number of angry references to her ex-husband the twin’s father, Colin Caffell who wanted full custody of the children'.

Apparently within the letter, Sheila indicated that she would be 'in the other world,' after the police arrive, and wrote 'my babys and me we go to our rest.'

Furthermore, she made reference to 'us' being put into a deep trench after the police arrive.

The CT claimed to have received a 'preliminary overview of the material' 'provided to a handwriting expert - who believes that the material was written by Sheila Caffell'.

Apparently the letter was revealed in 2011.  I am unsure why it was not acted upon sooner.  However, I'm aware that the CT were made up of volunteers and were/are dependent upon funding for expert assessments / forensic analysis etc. 

As most people know, Jeremy Bamber claimed there was a conversation around the dinner table regarding 'fostering' about which, people have argued either wouldn't have been mentioned at all - or - may have been mentioned in the context extra help for Sheila.  Perhaps Nevill and June were worried that they might lose contact with the twins, if the situation continued without some type of intervention or influence brought to bear?  Perhaps they sensed that in the future Colin might act decisively, to shield the twins from June's religious bent?

We know that instead of portraying Sheila as having been enraged or merely annoyed or sulky, Bamber portrays her as having seemed vacant.  If his portrayal is accurate, what may have been behind her vacant stare?  What might Sheila have ruminated on, as late evening turned crossed over in to the small hours? 

Could it be that Sheila had lost all hope that she could keep her babies with her in this world?  Did she reason that if she could not keep her babies with her in this world, her only choice was to keep them with her in the next?

When Sheila had 'gone berserk' with one of Nevill's guns, could it be that in her own mind, she was simply enacting the safeguarding of her self and her babies as a unit, together, in the next world?

Is it possible that either Nevill or June or Nevill and June were killed by Sheila because they interfered with Sheila's mission to send herself and her babies to their rest? 

If Sheila has shot the twins and thinks they may be dead - she has to then ensure that she herself is killed, in order to be with them on the other side.  Otherwise, she will have sent her babies over to the other side without the protection of their mother.  If Sheila was prevented from joining her babies by the intervention by one or both parents, might she not have experienced anguish, panic and an incredible sense of urgency to complete her mission? 

If Sheila has shot the twins but is unsure as to whether they are dead, the situation is no better for her - because there is now no going back.  Again, in this scenario, Sheila must complete her mission.   

We cannot know to what extent Sheila may have experienced auditory or visual hallucinations but we can try to imagine her as experiencing thoughts that we would view as warped but she may have viewed as being cogent and meaningful. Perhaps even forceful to the point of being demonic in their insistence (that she carry out her duty). 

I don't think Nevill or June stood much of a chance. They didn't know what they were up against.  It was the small hours and the situation was one of pure dread.


Is this post for real or a joke ?????

If the CT had or have a suicide letter written by Sheila that should have been with the cCRC or given to every newspaper in the UK

Are the CT once again ruining the chance of the conviction being overturned

Colin thought Sheila was suicidal??? There’s a suicide letter???
Where the •••• is this letter
Title: Re: What caused Sheila Caffell to kill her parents?
Post by: Roch on September 14, 2020, 10:08:PM

Is this post for real or a joke ?????

If the CT had or have a suicide letter written by Sheila that should have been with the cCRC or given to every newspaper in the UK

Are the CT once again ruining the chance of the conviction being overturned

Colin thought Sheila was suicidal??? There’s a suicide letter???
Where the •••• is this letter

My understanding is that the material was sent for forensic examination, paid for with funds raised by the public.  That is all I know.  They approached the press with content and an article appeared in at least one newspaper. 
Title: Re: What caused Sheila Caffell to kill her parents?
Post by: JackieD on September 14, 2020, 10:13:PM
My understanding is that the material was sent for forensic examination, paid for with funds raised by the public.  That is all I know.  They approached the press with content and an article appeared in at least one newspaper.

Nothing would surprise with the campaign team. It’s 4 years. If there really was this suicide letter any national newspaper would pay for the forensics

Give it to MWT or Piers Morgan

This is getting ridiculous
Title: Re: What caused Sheila Caffell to kill her parents?
Post by: JackieD on September 14, 2020, 10:25:PM
COVID-19 UPDATE: Ruth is still available for enquiries. Given the unprecedented circumstances, more complex instructions may take a little longer than usual. Please contact Ruth here. Take care.

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Ruth Myers ABFHE WADE CGA, a leading forensic handwriting analyst (graphology), provides a fully qualified handwriting analysis service. See here for terms of business.

Using proven scientific techniques, Ruth's handwriting service assists in personality analysis for business, personal requirements and suspect document examination.

Her skills have landed her on television, radio and print media. Click here to view past clients.

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Exhibitions and Corporate Events - with audience participation these events are both an interactive and memorable occasions for client and guests alike.
Title: Re: What caused Sheila Caffell to kill her parents?
Post by: JackieD on September 14, 2020, 10:26:PM
COVID-19 UPDATE: Ruth is still available for enquiries. Given the unprecedented circumstances, more complex instructions may take a little longer than usual. Please contact Ruth here. Take care.

ventotene.jpg
my services.png
Ruth Myers ABFHE WADE CGA, a leading forensic handwriting analyst (graphology), provides a fully qualified handwriting analysis service. See here for terms of business.

Using proven scientific techniques, Ruth's handwriting service assists in personality analysis for business, personal requirements and suspect document examination.

Her skills have landed her on television, radio and print media. Click here to view past clients.

Many Corporate and Private Companies including Banks, Building Societies, Insurance Companies, Financial Institutions, Solicitors, Media Groups, Arbitrational Tribunals and the Crown Prosecution Service have taken advantage of Ruth Myers' expert forensic handwriting analysis skills.

These are some of the services that Ruth offers:

Character Assessment - Analysis of personality traits from a handwriting sample.

Face-to-face consultations

Self-improvement - handwriting analysis, or graphology, can reveal hidden talents, certain qualities you could use for personal improvement and gain.

Forensic graphology for identifying falsified documents and examination of poison pen letters etc.

Relationships - does your partner's handwriting say something about them you should know? What about your colleagues?

Media Services - handwriting analysis of public figures and entertainers.

After Dinner Speaking - an informative, but entertaining approach to handwriting analysis.

Exhibitions and Corporate Events - with audience participation these events are both an interactive and memorable occasions for client and guests alike.
Title: Re: What caused Sheila Caffell to kill her parents?
Post by: JackieD on September 14, 2020, 10:27:PM
4 years ??????
Title: Re: What caused Sheila Caffell to kill her parents?
Post by: Roch on September 14, 2020, 10:34:PM
I'm interested in what people think of my speculation and reasoning, regarding one or more parents having  interfered with the aims and completion of Sheila's mission.  Do people think my reasoning regarding Sheila's aims that night rings true? 
Title: Re: What caused Sheila Caffell to kill her parents?
Post by: QCChevalier on September 14, 2020, 11:05:PM
I'm interested in what people think of my speculation and reasoning, regarding one or more parents having  interfered with the aims and completion of Sheila's mission.  Do people think my reasoning regarding Sheila's aims that night rings true?

Though Nevill was a magistrate, Nevill and June can't be expected to have understood much about the ins and out of fostering, so from that angle, what you say seems plausible.

As for Sheila, assuming the letter you refer to exists and is genuine, then your scenario is promising, but to answer your question, I would need an answer to another question:

Was Sheila happy with the arrangement in which Colin had majority custody of the children?  Did she express any definite unhappiness with it?

The reason I ask is to gauge what affect a threat from Colin to take full custody might have on her.  I assume she would still have supervised contact with the children under those circumstances and Colin must have reassured her of this.  I don't doubt she loved her boys, but was she a keen mother?  Dr. Ferguson did say after the trial that his evidence would have been different had he known about the custody issue.

Another question I have, on an entirely different matter, is if we assume your scenario, then at what stage are we saying Nevill made the call to Jeremy?  How does it fit in?  You obviously must realise that Nevill can't have been shot when he made that call, so the call was made before Sheila starting shooting and probably also was made with Sheila present. 

Maybe Sheila goes downstairs in the middle of the night with the intentions you mention.  She starts fiddling around with the rifle and magazine.  June has heard her, and wakes Nevill, who goes to investigate.  Nevill then confronts Sheila in the kitchen.  Nevill is faced with his daughter pointing a loaded gun at him and perhaps going psychotic.  He could rush her, but it's not that simple.  Maybe he picks up the phone and rings Jeremy because that's the first thing he thinks of and it's a way to keep Sheila talking/occupied/distracted.  When Jeremy comes to the phone, Sheila then runs upstairs and Nevill terminates the call.
Title: Re: What caused Sheila Caffell to kill her parents?
Post by: JackieD on September 14, 2020, 11:13:PM
There is not a shadow of doubt that Sheila was capable of the murders and Colin confirmed her mindset

I am just surprised it didn’t happen earlier

She didn’t stand a chance with a very sick adoptive parent and a dreadful husband that showed no compassion

Sheila must have been on her knees begging for help. It doesntbare thinking about.
Where were all the relatives when she was suicidal ???
They were straight around when there was money and plenty of goods to Nick
The vile vultures
Title: Re: What caused Sheila Caffell to kill her parents?
Post by: Real Justice on September 15, 2020, 08:47:AM
My understanding is that the material was sent for forensic examination, paid for with funds raised by the public.  That is all I know.  They approached the press with content and an article appeared in at least one newspaper.
I take it nothing came of it?
Title: Re: What caused Sheila Caffell to kill her parents?
Post by: lookout on September 15, 2020, 09:23:AM
I'm interested in what people think of my speculation and reasoning, regarding one or more parents having  interfered with the aims and completion of Sheila's mission.  Do people think my reasoning regarding Sheila's aims that night rings true?





I'm fully in agreement with what you posted re. Sheila, Roch.  As I pointed out in my post yesterday, not enough notice/concern was ever given regarding Sheila's MH/ behaviour or general persona to have realised that there was something radically wrong.
Title: Re: What caused Sheila Caffell to kill her parents?
Post by: Roch on September 15, 2020, 11:23:AM
Though Nevill was a magistrate, Nevill and June can't be expected to have understood much about the ins and out of fostering, so from that angle, what you say seems plausible.

As for Sheila, assuming the letter you refer to exists and is genuine, then your scenario is promising, but to answer your question, I would need an answer to another question:

Was Sheila happy with the arrangement in which Colin had majority custody of the children?  Did she express any definite unhappiness with it?

The reason I ask is to gauge what affect a threat from Colin to take full custody might have on her.  I assume she would still have supervised contact with the children under those circumstances and Colin must have reassured her of this.  I don't doubt she loved her boys, but was she a keen mother?  Dr. Ferguson did say after the trial that his evidence would have been different had he known about the custody issue.

Another question I have, on an entirely different matter, is if we assume your scenario, then at what stage are we saying Nevill made the call to Jeremy?  How does it fit in?  You obviously must realise that Nevill can't have been shot when he made that call, so the call was made before Sheila starting shooting and probably also was made with Sheila present. 

Maybe Sheila goes downstairs in the middle of the night with the intentions you mention.  She starts fiddling around with the rifle and magazine.  June has heard her, and wakes Nevill, who goes to investigate.  Nevill then confronts Sheila in the kitchen.  Nevill is faced with his daughter pointing a loaded gun at him and perhaps going psychotic.  He could rush her, but it's not that simple.  Maybe he picks up the phone and rings Jeremy because that's the first thing he thinks of and it's a way to keep Sheila talking/occupied/distracted.  When Jeremy comes to the phone, Sheila then runs upstairs and Nevill terminates the call.

Thanks for your response.  Appreciate it.  I think we do have to consider David's post as well - it is well known Sheila had a difficult relationship with June.  This is why I have implied that although June may have been killed because she attempted to 'interfere' with Sheila's mission that night, she might have been killed by Sheila anyway.  If Shelia wanted to send herself and her babies to their rest  -  she may have wanted to send June somewhere else (depending upon what she was experiencing in her mind)?

Re your scenario above.. there is this.  Not sure if it's of any use..

6 August 2002 Stokenchurch investigation. Room 101 Trenchard House. DS 21 Stanley Jones speaking to DCI Jeannette McDiarmid about the kitchen telephone.

Jones) “I can’t even see anybody using the phone in that kitchen, the state of it, do you know what I mean. There’s no way I want to use that phone”

Every known photograph of the ivory coloured kitchen phone, including those on this website, shows the phone in pristine condition. What could Jones have meant by "the state of it"? Blood all over it?

We may never know whether Jones is referring to the state of the phone or the state of the kitchen?
Title: Re: What caused Sheila Caffell to kill her parents?
Post by: QCChevalier on September 15, 2020, 11:47:AM
@Roch

Room 101??  Was he being threatened with rats when he said that?

Anyway, I don't put much stall in Stan Jones' words about the phone/kitchen in that COLP interview, simply because he is referring to the state of the phone and/or kitchen post-incident.  It is common ground that the phone was working - which, for me, is the important observation.

The point is: There's no phone in the master bedroom and the phone in the upstairs office is behind a locked door.  They don't have mobile phones at that point in time.  On this basis, if we assume Jeremy is telling the truth, then I am deducing that the call to Jeremy was made from the kitchen.  This also makes sense because of where the rifle and magazine are.  Sheila must go downstairs at some point. 

The twins aren't downstairs, they're upstairs.  Nevill is making the call downstairs, not upstairs, and he has to make the call before anybody else is shot, otherwise he would dial 999, surely?  He must also make the call before he is shot, or again he would attempt to dial 999 and he certainly would not be speaking to Jeremy.

This means that in a Sheila scenario, there must be a stand-off between Nevill and Sheila in the kitchen, and more than likely, Nevill makes the call to Jeremy with Sheila present.  The more I think about it, the more I believe he rang Jeremy because it was the first thing that popped into his head in a panicked situation.  All sorts of things would have been running through his mind: his daughter, the safety of the twins and June, his firearms certificate and his reputation as a magistrate, obviously with the twins at the forefront of this mind.

It could be that your scenario fits all this in that Sheila goes downstairs and intends then to return upstairs with the rifle, but Nevill stops her in the kitchen.  She then starts ranting and raving and that may have gone on for some time, before a confused and worried Nevill rings Jeremy, maybe as a way of keeping her in the kitchen, but the ploy backfires as Jeremy's involvement only makes her angrier.

As for Sheila's motivations, I am not sure because I am unsure whether loss of custody would have bothered her.  That might sound like an odd thing to say, but she was ill and may even have welcomed Colin's offer to take on the burden on the understanding she had contact.  On the other hand, Dr. Ferguson seemed to think a threat of loss of custody would have been cataclysmic for her psychologically.
Title: Re: What caused Sheila Caffell to kill her parents?
Post by: lookout on September 15, 2020, 12:18:PM
All Sheila had felt that she'd had in her life were her boys. Nobody and nothing---in Sheila's mind---was going to take them away from her. Is it any wonder she did what she did ??
Title: Re: What caused Sheila Caffell to kill her parents?
Post by: lookout on September 15, 2020, 12:23:PM
You don't have to have MH issues to know/ realise that your children are going to be removed from you. Ask any mother how they'd react ! They're not going to sit back are they ? Sheila's " fight " mechanism kicked in good style. Normal reaction is to go into hysterics, Sheila did this using a rifle----easily done.
Title: Re: What caused Sheila Caffell to kill her parents?
Post by: Roch on September 15, 2020, 12:25:PM
@Roch

Room 101??  Was he being threatened with rats when he said that?

Anyway, I don't put much stall in Stan Jones' words about the phone/kitchen in that COLP interview, simply because he is referring to the state of the phone and/or kitchen post-incident.  It is common ground that the phone was working - which, for me, is the important observation.

The point is: There's no phone in the master bedroom and the phone in the upstairs office is behind a locked door.  They don't have mobile phones at that point in time.  On this basis, if we assume Jeremy is telling the truth, then I am deducing that the call to Jeremy was made from the kitchen.  This also makes sense because of where the rifle and magazine are.  Sheila must go downstairs at some point. 

The twins aren't downstairs, they're upstairs.  Nevill is making the call downstairs, not upstairs, and he has to make the call before anybody else is shot, otherwise he would dial 999, surely?  He must also make the call before he is shot, or again he would attempt to dial 999 and he certainly would not be speaking to Jeremy.

This means that in a Sheila scenario, there must be a stand-off between Nevill and Sheila in the kitchen, and more than likely, Nevill makes the call to Jeremy with Sheila present.  The more I think about it, the more I believe he rang Jeremy because it was the first thing that popped into his head in a panicked situation.  All sorts of things would have been running through his mind: his daughter, the safety of the twins and June, his firearms certificate and his reputation as a magistrate, obviously with the twins at the forefront of this mind.

It could be that your scenario fits all this in that Sheila goes downstairs and intends then to return upstairs with the rifle, but Nevill stops her in the kitchen.  She then starts ranting and raving and that may have gone on for some time, before a confused and worried Nevill rings Jeremy, maybe as a way of keeping her in the kitchen, but the ploy backfires as Jeremy's involvement only makes her angrier.

As for Sheila's motivations, I am not sure because I am unsure whether loss of custody would have bothered her.  That might sound like an odd thing to say, but she was ill and may even have welcomed Colin's offer to take on the burden on the understanding she had contact.  On the other hand, Dr. Ferguson seemed to think a threat of loss of custody would have been cataclysmic for her psychologically.

Yes, I think Dr Ferguson used the term catastrophic. 

In your scenario for an inititial Nevill / Sheila confrontation in the kitchen (I think you have summed up Nevill's dilemma very well), are you factoring in that Sheila has spotted the rifle earlier in the night, after dinner and kept quiet about this? She may not even had made the connection until later on, during her rumination. Or, perhaps she made the connection early on, and realised that an opportunity presented itself?  She chose during the night to avoid interference?  Are we also factoring in the possibility that Jeremy left the rifle out deliberately ie in collusion with Sheila - or - do you think it more likely that Jeremy was merely was lazy and subsequently, Nevill was unobservant? If the former, some prior communication would have needed to occur between Jeremy and Sheila, in order for both to have an understanding.  I take it that after the phone call to Jeremy, Nevill attempts to intervene upstairs and this is where he is forced to turn tail, retreating down the stairs with shots fired?

But when Sheila goes upstairs after the initial confrontation with Nevill in the kitchen, where does she go first and who does she fire upon first?
Title: Re: What caused Sheila Caffell to kill her parents?
Post by: QCChevalier on September 15, 2020, 01:27:PM
Yes, I think Dr Ferguson used the term catastrophic. 

In your scenario for an inititial Nevill / Sheila confrontation in the kitchen (I think you have summed up Nevill's dilemma very well), are you factoring in that Sheila has spotted the rifle earlier in the night, after dinner and kept quiet about this? She may not even had made the connection until later on, during her rumination. Or, perhaps she made the connection early on, and realised that an opportunity presented itself?  She chose during the night to avoid interference?  Are we also factoring in the possibility that Jeremy left the rifle out deliberately ie in collusion with Sheila - or - do you think it more likely that Jeremy was merely was lazy and subsequently, Nevill was unobservant? If the former, some prior communication would have needed to occur between Jeremy and Sheila, in order for both to have an understanding.  I take it that after the phone call to Jeremy, Nevill attempts to intervene upstairs and this is where he is forced to turn tail, retreating down the stairs with shots fired?

But when Sheila goes upstairs after the initial confrontation with Nevill in the kitchen, where does she go first and who does she fire upon first?

In the past, I had always thought that Jeremy encouraging Sheila could have been a possibility, but when you yourself mentioned it recently on a different thread, that prompted me to go back to it and have another think about it.

On reflection, I find it unlikely for the reason that Jeremy would not know and could not control the outcome, and frankly, he would surely doubt Sheila's ability to complete such a massacre 'successfully' (if that's the right word). 

I don't believe there was any prior communication between them along the lines you suggest, because Jeremy would not have been able to rely on Sheila and it would have made no sense if his goal was inheritance. What if Sheila told somebody?  I just find it rather implausible.  The only caveat is: we don't know the extent of Sheila's experience with guns, and also, if Jeremy's motive was something other than inheritance, then maybe he colluded with Sheila, but we can't see in his mind, and as explained, how could he rely on and trust Sheila? 

I really think it is a simple choice: Jeremy or Sheila. 

If Jeremy is innocent, then he is culpable for leaving the rifle and magazine out, which must have been carelessness or sheer laziness, though in mitigation, Nevill was the certificated firearms owner and must bear ultimate responsibility, and hardly set a good example in that respect.  He couldn't even be bothered to fit a proper lock on the gun cupboard.
Title: Re: What caused Sheila Caffell to kill her parents?
Post by: JackieD on September 15, 2020, 01:42:PM
Without question reasonable doubt
Title: Re: What caused Sheila Caffell to kill her parents?
Post by: JackieD on September 15, 2020, 10:16:PM
Here is one suggestion...

Four years ago, the CT announced that a letter several pages long, had come to light addressed to 'Mummy', which was claimed as referring to Sheila's natural mother Christine (and claimed that Sheila described June Bamber as 'Mother').

They claimed there were a 'number of angry references to her ex-husband the twin’s father, Colin Caffell who wanted full custody of the children'.

Apparently within the letter, Sheila indicated that she would be 'in the other world,' after the police arrive, and wrote 'my babys and me we go to our rest.'

Furthermore, she made reference to 'us' being put into a deep trench after the police arrive.

The CT claimed to have received a 'preliminary overview of the material' 'provided to a handwriting expert - who believes that the material was written by Sheila Caffell'.

Apparently the letter was revealed in 2011.  I am unsure why it was not acted upon sooner.  However, I'm aware that the CT were made up of volunteers and were/are dependent upon funding for expert assessments / forensic analysis etc. 

As most people know, Jeremy Bamber claimed there was a conversation around the dinner table regarding 'fostering' about which, people have argued either wouldn't have been mentioned at all - or - may have been mentioned in the context extra help for Sheila.  Perhaps Nevill and June were worried that they might lose contact with the twins, if the situation continued without some type of intervention or influence brought to bear?  Perhaps they sensed that in the future Colin might act decisively, to shield the twins from June's religious bent?

We know that instead of portraying Sheila as having been enraged or merely annoyed or sulky, Bamber portrays her as having seemed vacant.  If his portrayal is accurate, what may have been behind her vacant stare?  What might Sheila have ruminated on, as late evening crossed over in to the small hours? 

Could it be that Sheila had lost all hope that she could keep her babies with her in this world?  Did she reason that if she could not keep her babies with her in this world, her only choice was to keep them with her in the next?

When Sheila had 'gone berserk' with one of Nevill's guns, could it be that in her own mind, she was simply enacting the safeguarding of her self and her babies as a unit, together, in the next world?

Is it possible that either Nevill or June or Nevill and June were killed by Sheila because they interfered with Sheila's mission to send herself and her babies to their rest? 

If Sheila has shot the twins and thinks they may be dead - she has to then ensure that she herself is killed, in order to be with them on the other side.  Otherwise, she will have sent her babies over to the other side without the protection of their mother.  If Sheila was prevented from joining her babies by the intervention of one or both parents, might she not have experienced anguish, panic and an incredible sense of urgency to complete her mission? 

If Sheila has shot the twins but is unsure as to whether they are dead, the situation is no better for her - because there is now no going back.  Again, in this scenario, Sheila must complete her mission.   

We cannot know to what extent Sheila may have experienced auditory or visual hallucinations but we can try to imagine her as experiencing thoughts that we would view as warped but which she may have viewed as being cogent and meaningful.  Perhaps even forceful to the point of being demonic in their insistence (that she carry out her duty). 

I don't think Nevill or June stood much of a chance. They didn't know what they were up against.  It was the small hours and the situation was one of pure dread.  Nevill is presented with a situation of having to either kill or save his own daughter - who may be locked up for years in an institution.  He cant save her without possibly losing his own life.  Can he bring himself to kill her?  Can he overpower her with his wounds?  What will happen to his wife if he fails?  The anguish and dread they must have felt regarding the fate of the twins is horrific.

You have not explained yourself??

What exactly is your point ???
Title: Re: What caused Sheila Caffell to kill her parents?
Post by: Hartley. on September 15, 2020, 10:44:PM
You have not explained yourself??

What exactly is your point ???

I think Rochy is just pondering on a possible scenario that Sheila chose to kill herself and her children, Nevill and June were actually only killed because they interfered and tried to stop her.

I don't think he is making a point, just suggesting a possible scenario. It's not one which I recall being voiced before.
Title: Re: What caused Sheila Caffell to kill her parents?
Post by: Hartley. on September 15, 2020, 11:01:PM
I'm interested in what people think of my speculation and reasoning, regarding one or more parents having  interfered with the aims and completion of Sheila's mission.  Do people think my reasoning regarding Sheila's aims that night rings true?

It seems reasonable to me.

Obviously the evidence of the silencer, JM's claims etc remain a hurdle but without that (I.e. if it was planted/doctored  evidence and false statements) then on the face of it your suggestion seems potentially plausible.

Interesting thought certainly better than the simplistic narrative of 'she just went mad and killed everyone'.
Title: Re: What caused Sheila Caffell to kill her parents?
Post by: Adam on September 15, 2020, 11:03:PM
Hopefully Roch will give a more detailed scenario of events in the minutes before & during the massacre. Ditto Mike.

Mike's scenario is 'by shooting them'.

Roch's is 'Sheila shot them but I can't explain the phone calls'.

Title: Re: What caused Sheila Caffell to kill her parents?
Post by: Roch on September 15, 2020, 11:06:PM
You have not explained yourself??

What exactly is your point ???

Hartley has summed it up well.  I think Sheila was on a mission to take herself and her sons to the other side / heaven.  She saw the gun and didn't go to bed that night. She waited until the early hours when everyone would be asleep.

I think Nevill was killed because he tried to prevent her from carrying it out. I'm not sure whether June was killed for the same reason or whether she was just shot by Sheila regardless. I suspect Sheila's thinking was obviously paranoid and she experienced some form of hallucinatory thoughts / warped reasoning. She can't allow the twins to go to heaven without her and so once she has shot them, she must kill herself to join them. Nothing can stop her. This is what Nevill and June were really faced with when they became aware of the incident.

I think what happened was, when it finally came down to it, she hesitated and was left alone in the house with the corpses of her family that she had killed. The TFG raid brought things to a conclusion and she died quite some time after the others.

It's a desperately sad situation.
Title: Re: What caused Sheila Caffell to kill her parents?
Post by: Roch on September 15, 2020, 11:11:PM
Hopefully Roch will give a more detailed scenario of events in the minutes before & during the massacre. Ditto Mike.

Mike's scenario is 'by shooting them'.

Roch's is 'Sheila shot them but I can't explain the phone calls'.

QC had a decent go of fitting the alleged call from Nevill to Jeremy, in to my scenario.
Title: Re: What caused Sheila Caffell to kill her parents?
Post by: Hartley. on September 15, 2020, 11:27:PM
QC had a decent go of fitting the alleged call from Nevill to Jeremy, in to my scenario.

I haven't seen his suggestion, but I could probably put something together, I guess it would involve Nevill going to the kitchen to make the phone call, going back upstairs before fleeing back to the kitchen again whilst under fire.
Title: Re: What caused Sheila Caffell to kill her parents?
Post by: JackieD on September 15, 2020, 11:29:PM
Hartley has summed it up well.  I think Sheila was on a mission to take herself and her sons to the other side / heaven.  She saw the gun and didn't go to bed that night. She waited until the early hours when everyone would be asleep.

I think Nevill was killed because he tried to prevent her from carrying it out. I'm not sure whether June was killed for the same reason or whether she was just shot by Sheila regardless. I suspect Sheila's thinking was obviously paranoid and she experienced some form of hallucinatory thoughts / warped reasoning. She can't allow the twins to go to heaven without her and so once she has shot them, she must kill herself to join them. Nothing can stop her. This is what Nevill and June were really faced with when they became aware of the incident.

I think what happened was, when it finally came down to it, she hesitated and was left alone in the house with the corpses of her family that she had killed. The TFG raid brought things to a conclusion and she died quite some time after the others.

It's a desperately sad situation.

Hartley is the last person who would sum something up honestly

I am talking about the letter
You always make these comments as if you are part of the campaign team and then leave it

Was there a letter or not
What did the handwriting expert say
Do you not realise the importance of a suicide letter
Or has it all been made up
I am sure if a suicide letter exists Hartley will then admit Jeremy is most likely innocent
Title: Re: What caused Sheila Caffell to kill her parents?
Post by: Roch on September 15, 2020, 11:35:PM
I haven't seen his suggestion, but I could probably put something together, I guess it would involve Nevill going to the kitchen to make the phone call, going back upstairs before fleeing back to the kitchen again whilst under fire.

Carbon copy virtually. He has Nevill coming downstairs and confronting Sheila in the kitchen before shots are fired. While he's making the call she goes upstairs and he ends call. Then as you say, he retreats under fire.
Title: Re: What caused Sheila Caffell to kill her parents?
Post by: Hartley. on September 15, 2020, 11:39:PM
Carbon copy virtually. He has Nevill coming downstairs and confronting Sheila in the kitchen before shots are fired. While he's making the call she goes upstairs and he ends call. Then as you say, he retreats under fire.

Seems to all work to me.

It's just all the rest of the circumstantial that then needs dismissing.
Title: Re: What caused Sheila Caffell to kill her parents?
Post by: Roch on September 15, 2020, 11:44:PM
Hartley is the last person who would sum something up honestly

I am talking about the letter
You always make these comments as if you are part of the campaign team and then leave it

Was there a letter or not
What did the handwriting expert say
Do you not realise the importance of a suicide letter
Or has it all been made up
I am sure if a suicide letter exists Hartley will then admit Jeremy is most likely innocent

I'll find out more info and get back to you on here. I'm not part of CT.  The article about these notes / letter was in The Express. It may have been in other papers.  I think the big problem for the CT was/is the huge costs involved from these experts.
Title: Re: What caused Sheila Caffell to kill her parents?
Post by: Hartley. on September 15, 2020, 11:45:PM
Hartley is the last person who would sum something up honestly

I am talking about the letter
You always make these comments as if you are part of the campaign team and then leave it

Was there a letter or not
What did the handwriting expert say
Do you not realise the importance of a suicide letter
Or has it all been made up
I am sure if a suicide letter exists Hartley will then admit Jeremy is most likely innocent

Do you think that there is a suicide note from Sheila?
Title: Re: What caused Sheila Caffell to kill her parents?
Post by: Hartley. on September 15, 2020, 11:49:PM
I'll find out more info and get back to you on here. I'm not part of CT.  The article about these notes / letter was in The Express. It may have been in other papers.  I think the big problem for the CT was/is the huge costs involved from these experts.

Is it possible that they pull stunts to attempt to gain awareness, and therefore funding?
Some of their antics have been well ridiculed by people of either stance.
Title: Re: What caused Sheila Caffell to kill her parents?
Post by: Roch on September 15, 2020, 11:57:PM
Is it possible that they pull stunts to attempt to gain awareness, and therefore funding?
Some of their antics have been well ridiculed by people of either stance.

I think they're prone to over-interpretation.  David1819 might say misinterpretation.  I think they see what they want to see.  Me and you understand that claims made about documents essentially have to be 'guilter-proof' in order to avoid becoming dismantled or at least questioned by case-aware individuals.  Ambiguity is an enemy for the defence. 
Title: Re: What caused Sheila Caffell to kill her parents?
Post by: Roch on September 16, 2020, 12:04:AM
Having said that, I honestly can't see them forging suicide notes or letters. However, I get your point. Might I have gone off on my tangent as a result of a stunt? I hope not.
Title: Re: What caused Sheila Caffell to kill her parents?
Post by: Hartley. on September 16, 2020, 12:08:AM
I think they're prone to over-interpretation.  David1819 might say misinterpretation.  I think they see what they want to see.  Me and you understand that claims made about documents essentially have to be 'guilter-proof' in order to avoid becoming dismantled or at least questioned by case-aware individuals.  Ambiguity is an enemy for the defence.

That's a fantastic way of putting it, I couldn't agree more.
Title: Re: What caused Sheila Caffell to kill her parents?
Post by: Hartley. on September 16, 2020, 12:11:AM
Having said that, I honestly can't see them forging suicide notes or letters. However, I get your point. Might I have gone off on my tangent as a result of a stunt? I hope not.

Aaah, no, I didn't mean that at all. My logic leads me me to think that if a suicide note existed then it would have been found in the month prior to JB's arrest, which would have meant that there would be no reason for the change in suspect. Corruption aside.
Title: Re: What caused Sheila Caffell to kill her parents?
Post by: Adam on September 16, 2020, 07:09:AM
QC had a decent go of fitting the alleged call from Nevill to Jeremy, in to my scenario.

Do you agree Nevill did not call the police then?
Title: Re: What caused Sheila Caffell to kill her parents?
Post by: Roch on September 16, 2020, 02:22:PM
Do you agree Nevill did not call the police then?

That's a good question Adam. In short, I am non-committal on whether a call to police took place. I don't have a very analytical brain and I find the whole telephone times argument labyrinthine and unfathomable. I do have some sympathy with Bill Robertson's views regarding this, which are to some extent based upon his own experiences as an officer within the same force and around the same time. His posts regarding 'a shooting incident at White House Farm' are worth a visit. However, I balance this against the opinions of the likes of ngb1066 and David1819, who do not believe any such call took place. 
Title: Re: What caused Sheila Caffell to kill her parents?
Post by: David1819 on September 16, 2020, 03:46:PM
A while ago I compared Sheila’s handwriting samples to the alleged suicide letter. It seemed to be the same handwriting to me. Both the letter and handwriting samples were in the same COLP box
Title: Re: What caused Sheila Caffell to kill her parents?
Post by: lookout on September 16, 2020, 05:33:PM
I think I'm the only one who believes that Nevill did ring the police because EP being as they were, gormless, they took 2 " Mr Bamber " calls which morphed into one like the silencer did along with the rifle.
Title: Re: What caused Sheila Caffell to kill her parents?
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 16, 2020, 10:06:PM
A while ago I compared Sheila’s handwriting samples to the alleged suicide letter. It seemed to be the same handwriting to me. Both the letter and handwriting samples were in the same COLP box
Have you got photographs to support your view here please.  How about uploading them to the forum please.
Title: Re: What caused Sheila Caffell to kill her parents?
Post by: David1819 on September 16, 2020, 10:22:PM
Have you got photographs to support your view here please.  How about uploading them to the forum please.

Yes. I am on my mobile at the moment, I will upload them when I am at my PC  :)
Title: Re: What caused Sheila Caffell to kill her parents?
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 17, 2020, 06:20:AM
Yes. I am on my mobile at the moment, I will upload them when I am at my PC  :)
I'll be waiting.
Title: Re: What caused Sheila Caffell to kill her parents?
Post by: David1819 on September 17, 2020, 11:36:AM
I'll be waiting.

The words on the left are from a letter written by Sheila in 1982. The same words to the right are from the alleged suicide note.

Title: Re: What caused Sheila Caffell to kill her parents?
Post by: Hartley. on September 17, 2020, 11:59:AM
The words on the left are from a letter written by Sheila in 1982. The same words to the right are from the alleged suicide note.

Is the alleged suicide note available to see?
Title: Re: What caused Sheila Caffell to kill her parents?
Post by: Hartley. on September 17, 2020, 12:05:PM
Is the alleged suicide note available to see?

Are these the words:

Love one another. A determination always to act in the others’ best interest, whether we feel good or not, whether we like them or not. It is an act of will, commandment to obey. Be determined to be loving and kind to every person you meet whether you like them or not. Lord Jesus in Thy mercy, teach me to love for Thy name’s sake, help me to live and speak as a Christian, no matter what others may think.
Title: Re: What caused Sheila Caffell to kill her parents?
Post by: Roch on September 17, 2020, 12:11:PM
Are these the words:

Love one another. A determination always to act in the others’ best interest, whether we feel good or not, whether we like them or not. It is an act of will, commandment to obey. Be determined to be loving and kind to every person you meet whether you like them or not. Lord Jesus in Thy mercy, teach me to love for Thy name’s sake, help me to live and speak as a Christian, no matter what others may think.

Not the one I'm referring to. But David's may be different.
Title: Re: What caused Sheila Caffell to kill her parents?
Post by: Hartley. on September 17, 2020, 12:18:PM
Not the one I'm referring to. But David's may be different.

Is the one that you refer to available?
Title: Re: What caused Sheila Caffell to kill her parents?
Post by: JackieD on September 17, 2020, 12:19:PM
Not the one I'm referring to. But David's may be different.

Roch


Can you post the suicide note you are referring to

Title: Re: What caused Sheila Caffell to kill her parents?
Post by: David1819 on September 17, 2020, 12:43:PM
Is the alleged suicide note available to see?

Yes.

(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5372.0;attach=36543)

(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5372.0;attach=36544)

(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5372.0;attach=36539)

(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5372.0;attach=36540)

(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5372.0;attach=36541)

(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5372.0;attach=36542)
Title: Re: What caused Sheila Caffell to kill her parents?
Post by: Hartley. on September 17, 2020, 12:45:PM
Yes.

Thanks David, that makes my eyes hurt, was she a doctor!!!
Title: Re: What caused Sheila Caffell to kill her parents?
Post by: Hartley. on September 17, 2020, 12:50:PM
Anyone fancy a job as a translator and typing it out?  :-\
Title: Re: What caused Sheila Caffell to kill her parents?
Post by: David1819 on September 17, 2020, 12:59:PM
Anyone fancy a job as a translator and typing it out?  :-\

Some attempts have been made. Here are two parts deciphered by another member here.

"MUMMY DARLING,

STOP LOOKING AT MY PICTURE YOU WILL BREAK YOUR HEART
? ? JUST REMEMBER I AM YOUR DAUGHTER BAMBI. ? ?  BORN 3. 3. 57.
AND NO ONE CAN TAKE THAT AWAY FROM YOU AND I.
THE SUN NEWSPAPER & THE POLICE ARE GOING TO BE IN TOUCH SOON AND GET THIS ? DIRTY MESS CLEARED UP AND I MUST SAY IT IS A  ? DIRTY MESSY BUSINESS. AS I SAID BEFORE TURN OVER THE STONE & A LOT A DIRTY BUGS WILL CRAWL OUT. OH MUMMY DON’T YOU THINK I HAVE FEELINGS ALSO ON THIS FLOATING SPACE I AM IN. AS SOON AS THE DIRT IS DUG UP AND THE PUBLIC NO, THEN MY DARLING MUMMY WELL ( will) MY BABYS AND I GO TO  (our) MY REST.
WE NO  (what)  AWFUL STRAIN YOU’RE GOING THROUGH  ? ? ALL THE TEARS AND PAIN I WOULD DEARLY ……."


"TO TESTIFIED TO EX HUSBAND OF MINE WHAT TO DO.
HOW DARE HE SAY NOT TO BRING MY SONS WITH ME THEY'RE WHERE THEY BELONG WITH ME HE NEVER WANTED THEM. OH SO SORRY MUMMY HERE I GO AGAIN GETTING ANGRY BUT HE NEVER WAS ANY GOOD....."
Title: Re: What caused Sheila Caffell to kill her parents?
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 17, 2020, 01:02:PM
The words on the left are from a letter written by Sheila in 1982. The same words to the right are from the alleged suicide note.

Thanks for that.  I'd say they were written by two different people, but there are similarities as might be expected between a mother and daughter, living for a long time in the same household.

Did you ever see an expert opinion confirming the two writings were done by Sheila?
Title: Re: What caused Sheila Caffell to kill her parents?
Post by: Hartley. on September 17, 2020, 01:03:PM
Some attempts have been made. Here are two parts deciphered by another member here.

"MUMMY DARLING,

STOP LOOKING AT MY PICTURE YOU WILL BREAK YOUR HEART
? ? JUST REMEMBER I AM YOUR DAUGHTER BAMBI. ? ?  BORN 3. 3. 57.
AND NO ONE CAN TAKE THAT AWAY FROM YOU AND I.
THE SUN NEWSPAPER & THE POLICE ARE GOING TO BE IN TOUCH SOON AND GET THIS ? DIRTY MESS CLEARED UP AND I MUST SAY IT IS A  ? DIRTY MESSY BUSINESS. AS I SAID BEFORE TURN OVER THE STONE & A LOT A DIRTY BUGS WILL CRAWL OUT. OH MUMMY DON’T YOU THINK I HAVE FEELINGS ALSO ON THIS FLOATING SPACE I AM IN. AS SOON AS THE DIRT IS DUG UP AND THE PUBLIC NO, THEN MY DARLING MUMMY WELL ( will) MY BABYS AND I GO TO  (our) MY REST.
WE NO  (what)  AWFUL STRAIN YOU’RE GOING THROUGH  ? ? ALL THE TEARS AND PAIN I WOULD DEARLY ……."


"TO TESTIFIED TO EX HUSBAND OF MINE WHAT TO DO.
HOW DARE HE SAY NOT TO BRING MY SONS WITH ME THEY'RE WHERE THEY BELONG WITH ME HE NEVER WANTED THEM. OH SO SORRY MUMMY HERE I GO AGAIN GETTING ANGRY BUT HE NEVER WAS ANY GOOD....."


Is mummy her birth mother or June I wonder?
Title: Re: What caused Sheila Caffell to kill her parents?
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 17, 2020, 01:10:PM
Yes.

(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5372.0;attach=36543)

(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5372.0;attach=36544)

(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5372.0;attach=36539)

(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5372.0;attach=36540)

(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5372.0;attach=36541)

(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5372.0;attach=36542)

Third line up on the last page above the signature  "... in the after world ..." 
That sounds a bit ominous doesn't it?
Title: Re: What caused Sheila Caffell to kill her parents?
Post by: David1819 on September 17, 2020, 01:20:PM
Third line up on the last page above the signature  "... in the after world ..." 
That sounds a bit ominous doesn't it?

Indeed. That's why I refer to it as an alleged suicide note. Suicide is not explicitly expressed but it can be seen as implied.
Title: Re: What caused Sheila Caffell to kill her parents?
Post by: Hartley. on September 17, 2020, 01:24:PM
Third line up on the last page above the signature  "... in the after world ..." 
That sounds a bit ominous doesn't it?

It's a bit dark, maybe influenced by her bible reading.  :-\

I see that there have been a few threads discussing these notes of the years.
Title: Re: What caused Sheila Caffell to kill her parents?
Post by: JackieD on September 17, 2020, 01:32:PM
Is mummy her birth mother or June I wonder?

Well if it’s genuine it calls Colin out although his behaviour and actions have been obvious to everyone
Title: Re: What caused Sheila Caffell to kill her parents?
Post by: Roch on September 17, 2020, 03:00:PM
Roch


Can you post the suicide note you are referring to

Hi Jackie I didn't know it was available but as David has posted it up, it must be. I don't think I have seen it before, only the Express article relating to it.
Title: Re: What caused Sheila Caffell to kill her parents?
Post by: lookout on September 17, 2020, 06:04:PM
It has shades of the old film ( 1981 ) of " Mommy Dearest " which starred Faye Dunaway as Joan Crawford. The film was based on a book which was written by Joan Crawford's daughter-----who was also adopted. It was a horrible film which told of the life of Joan Crawford as mother to her adopted daughter.
As has been said a few times, it has " a ring of truth " about it when you compare it with Sheila's life.
Title: Re: What caused Sheila Caffell to kill her parents?
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 17, 2020, 07:52:PM
It has shades of the old film ( 1981 ) of " Mommy Dearest " which starred Faye Dunaway as Joan Crawford. The film was based on a book which was written by Joan Crawford's daughter-----who was also adopted. It was a horrible film which told of the life of Joan Crawford as mother to her adopted daughter.
As has been said a few times, it has " a ring of truth " about it when you compare it with Sheila's life.
Could Sheila have been influence by the movie?   
Title: Re: What caused Sheila Caffell to kill her parents?
Post by: Hartley. on September 17, 2020, 08:22:PM
Could Sheila have been influence by the movie?

Funny, there was another movie which had parallels to the case which could have influenced JB, I think it even appeared on one of the police evidence inventories, I don't recall the title now, I'll have a look.
Title: Re: What caused Sheila Caffell to kill her parents?
Post by: lookout on September 17, 2020, 09:29:PM
Could Sheila have been influence by the movie?





Makes you wonder.
Title: Re: What caused Sheila Caffell to kill her parents?
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 17, 2020, 09:34:PM




Makes you wonder.
If it was, it wouldn't be the first murder influenced by themes from movies.   

Just for conversation "7 REAL-LIFE MURDERS THAT INSPIRED HORROR MOVIES"  https://www.syfy.com/syfywire/7-real-life-murders-that-inspired-horror-movies

I'm not saying they were.
Title: Re: What caused Sheila Caffell to kill her parents?
Post by: lookout on September 17, 2020, 09:39:PM




Makes you wonder.





It was an horrendous film, so cruel toward the daughter. Daughter was expelled from school as well. It'd be worth a watch just to pick up a few stages of the daughter growing up under the control of a mother.
Title: Re: What caused Sheila Caffell to kill her parents?
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 17, 2020, 10:15:PM




It was an horrendous film, so cruel toward the daughter. Daughter was expelled from school as well. It'd be worth a watch just to pick up a few stages of the daughter growing up under the control of a mother.
If you get a good link please post it.  Its a rainy day here in NZ.
Title: Re: What caused Sheila Caffell to kill her parents?
Post by: Roch on September 17, 2020, 10:26:PM
Robbitybob1,

I currently have you as roughly 60/40 in favour of guilt for JB.  This would fall in to the 'alleged neutrality' category.  At a push I would say maybe even 65/35.

What do you make of the NZ connection via 'David Shaw'?
Title: Re: What caused Sheila Caffell to kill her parents?
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 17, 2020, 10:34:PM
Robbitybob1,

I currently have you as roughly 60/40 in favour of guilt for JB.  This would fall in to the 'alleged neutrality' category.  At a push I would say maybe even 65/35.

What do you make of the NZ connection via 'David Shaw'?
Well actually I think that Jeremy didn't kill anyone himself.  But since he loaded the gun and left it out for his sister that might make him guilty in some sense. 

Was that JB best friend? "'David Shaw' 
Title: Re: What caused Sheila Caffell to kill her parents?
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 17, 2020, 10:43:PM
http://youknowwhokilledyoudontyou.blogspot.com/2011/02/innocent-man-by-david-shaw.html

I remember now David Shaw wrote a book about the case.  "An Innocent Man by David Shaw"

What makes you think there was a New Zealand connection?
Title: Re: What caused Sheila Caffell to kill her parents?
Post by: Roch on September 17, 2020, 10:54:PM
Well actually I think that Jeremy didn't kill anyone himself.  But since he loaded the gun and left it out for his sister that might make him guilty in some sense.


Looks like I'll have to move you in my scale.  I weighted you on the fact that I'd noticed more of your questions relating to guilt than innocence. 

Was that JB best friend? "'David Shaw'

Not quite: http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,776.0.html


http://youknowwhokilledyoudontyou.blogspot.com/2011/02/innocent-man-by-david-shaw.html

I remember now David Shaw wrote a book about the case.  "An Innocent Man by David Shaw"

What makes you think there was a New Zealand connection?

'David Shaw' was either Aus or NZ.  He wrote a book about steroids in competition weigh-lifting.  Forget the Innocent Man book for now.. check out the above link.
Title: Re: What caused Sheila Caffell to kill her parents?
Post by: JackieD on September 17, 2020, 11:13:PM
What is the other miscarriage of justice case going on for years where the wife committed suicide but they think the husband was responsible ????
Title: Re: What caused Sheila Caffell to kill her parents?
Post by: Hartley. on September 18, 2020, 01:14:AM
Funny, there was another movie which had parallels to the case which could have influenced JB, I think it even appeared on one of the police evidence inventories, I don't recall the title now, I'll have a look.

Fatal Vision. Item 641.

(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4229.0;attach=31225;image)
Title: Re: What caused Sheila Caffell to kill her parents?
Post by: JackieD on September 18, 2020, 10:36:AM
What is the other miscarriage of justice case going on for years where the wife committed suicide but they think the husband was responsible ????

THE JUSTICE TRAP: ‘No Hope’ of Justice for Eddie Gilfoyle after 18 Years in Prison for his Wife’s Hanging
Jon Robins
29 April 2019

The Criminal Cases Review Commission provides no effective safety net for victims of a miscarriage of justice – Eddie Gilfoyle is a striking example, reports Jon Robins.
Paula Gilfoyle was found hanging from a beam in the garage of their home in Upton, on the Wirral, Merseyside on 4 June 1992. She was eight-and-a-half months pregnant and apparently happy.
At the trial, the jury was told that pregnant women don’t take their own lives. Instead, they accepted that her husband Eddie Gilfoyle had faked her suicide and even tricked his wife into writing suicide notes.
Eddie Gilfoyle’s conviction attracted concern from the start.
There is no hope of establishing the truth for an innocent, wronged man and no hope of having a courageous, serious organisation capable of righting terrible historic wrongs.
Matt Foot, Eddie Gilfoyle’s solicitor
Back in 1996, an investigation for Channel Four’s Trial & Error programme revealed the immediate police response to be a farce. The lead officer assumed that Paula had committed suicide: the ‘crime scene’ was not secured (because he thought no crime had taken place), Paula’s body was cut down and laid out on the concrete floor, no photographs were taken and vital evidence was binned including the rope she had used. The programme also raised serious questions about the conduct of Merseyside Police’s later investigation.
Eddie Gilfoyle served 18 years in prison.

The Missing Diaries
Since his release in December 2010, a seemingly unstoppable momentum has been building behind the case. “Has a more tangled web ever been weaved by British police than that around the case of Eddie Gilfoyle?” wrote The Times’ investigation editor Dominic Kennedy in 2016.
As the years have gone by, the case of Eddie Gilfoyle has unravelled yet further. In 2012, Gilfoyle’s solicitor, Matt Foot, found a locked metal box containing Paula’s diaries amongst the unused exhibits at Bebington Police Station 20 years after her death. They revealed a very different picture to the happy-go-lucky personality created by the prosecution and presented to the jury. There was a suicide attempt and a first boyfriend who was convicted of the murder of a woman he had sex with, who he had never met previously, in a park.
The Times leader writer Daniel Finkelstein compared the case of the Falklands veteran to that of Alfred Dreyfus. “The tenacity with which the legal system and those responsible for the original case hold to their story and to their insistence that they were not in error is astonishing,” wrote the Tory peer. “Doubt it? Then read the history of the Birmingham Six or the Guildford Four… Or read the story of Eddie Gilfoyle”.
The almost complete lack of media scrutiny of one of the justice system’s most vital parts seems a striking oversight.
A couple of years ago, the campaign to overturn Gilfoyle’s conviction came to an abrupt halt. If you are convicted of a crime you didn’t commit and you have exhausted your opportunities to appeal, you then have to apply to the Criminal Cases Review Commission (CCRC). I first wrote about the Gilfoyle case in 1999 when it became the 42nd case that the new watchdog body sent back to the Court of Appeal. That appeal was unsuccessful.
Gilfoyle’s fate still rests in the hands of the CCRC. In 2016, it rejected a second application after having had it for around five years. The CCRC has only ever sent two cases back to the Appeal judges for a second time.

The CCRC – No Safety Net
Of all the parts of our failing justice system, the body that was set up as its safety net as a result of scandals such as the Birmingham Six and Guildford Four has received by far the most swingeing cuts.
The year the CCRC rejected the Gilfoyle cases, it had referred just a dozen cases back to the Court of Appeal. While it has sent back 33 cases a year over its 20-year history, in the past two years, those numbers have dropped off a cliff. Last year, it referred just 19 cases.
Another alarming statistic is the CCRC’s success rate. Its 20-year average was 67% and so more than two-thirds of referrals were overturned. However, as the number of referrals has crashed, so has its success rate – to just 46% last year.
The CCRC is in the grips of a funding crisis. When it was set up in 1997, its budget was £7.5m and it dealt with 800 cases a year. Last year, it had £5.45m with applications running at an average of 1,500 a year.
Diaries… revealed a very different picture to the happy-go-lucky personality created by the prosecution and presented to the jury.
For all the well publicised concerns about our ‘broken’ justice system and the cuts to legal aid, the almost complete lack of media scrutiny of one of its most vital parts seems a striking oversight. I can think of only one serious media investigation into the performance of the watchdog in the last five years (a BBC Panorama documentary by the journalist Mark Daly which featured the Gilfoyle case).
Matt Foot has accused the CCRC of being “desk-bound and moribund” in relation to the Gilfolye case. Speaking after an unsuccessful High Court challenge of its decision to reject the case, Foot said: “We are compelled to conclude there is no hope. No hope of establishing the truth for an innocent, wronged man and no hope of having a courageous, serious organisation capable of righting terrible historic wrongs.”



I recently discovered that, as a response to its funding crisis, the CCRC has stopped employing full-time commissioners – even though the watchdog is required by statute to have 11 commissioners and needs three to make a referral. Speaking at a conference at the end of last year, a former commissioner Dr Sharon Persaud explained that, when she joined in 2013, there were 8.6 full-time equivalent commissioners compared to 2.6 as she stepped down. Now, there is not a single full time commissioner.
Eddie Gilfoyle continues the fight to clear his name.