Jeremy Bamber Forum

JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: Nigel on May 06, 2018, 02:11:PM

Title: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Nigel on May 06, 2018, 02:11:PM
This has probably been discussed many times before but I think its worth a refresh.

I find it shocking that the Judge said it could 'only have been JEREMY or SHEILA'.

Theory:

SHEILA was desperately ill and wanted to kill her family, but couldn't do it herself.

She confided in a 'friend' 'X' who was a sicko and 'he' said "I'll do it", "but you will have to take your own life, I cant kill a 'friend'"

SHEILA "Okay but I want JEREMY rid of Evil as well, and it must be after dark"

X "okay but how do I access and exit the house"

SHEILA "I will allow you in, and allow you out"

X "okay, but what about JEREMY"

SHEILA "you will have to point a rifle at my dads head and say, "phone your son and say 'your sister has the gun and gone berserk'

when he (JEREMY) comes to the house kill the evil devil as well.

X "yes, but what about you, and again access, exit?

SHEILA "I will let you in and out, and then wash myself and prepare for my final journey"

X "okay"


JEREMY should have died at the hands of the 'X' that fateful night, but 'by luck' he didn't

Phone call by NEVILLE to police, not sure how that happened, but stranger things have occured. and I need more time to think about this important point.

I guess 'quilters' will say 'above could have been JEREMY', well I don't believe that but again JUDGE misguided jury.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Steve_uk on May 06, 2018, 02:30:PM
The problem with this ingenious if implausible theory is that going off Jeremy's version of events it was Nevill himself who during the course of the brief telephone call laid the blame on Sheila's shoulders.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Nigel on May 06, 2018, 02:32:PM
The problem with this ingenious if implausible theory is that going off Jeremy's version of events it was Nevill himself who during the course of the brief telephone call laid the blame on Sheila's shoulders.

yes, if you read my post it may help you...

'SHEILA "you will have to point a rifle at my dads head and say, "phone your son and say 'your sister has the gun and gone berserk' '


"otherwise you may get blamed, I wouldn't want that"
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on May 06, 2018, 02:43:PM
The " other " one responsible was whoever was in her mind/thoughts at the time. The voice !
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Nigel on May 06, 2018, 02:52:PM
The " other " one responsible was whoever was in her mind/thoughts at the time. The voice !

Possibly 'X' was part of poor Sheila's Schizophrenia.

Maybe 'X' was an equally unwell living breathing 'friend'.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Steve_uk on May 06, 2018, 02:57:PM
yes, if you read my post it may help you...

'SHEILA "you will have to point a rifle at my dads head and say, "phone your son and say 'your sister has the gun and gone berserk' '


"otherwise you may get blamed, I wouldn't want that"
Not in the man's character to do that..
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Nigel on May 06, 2018, 02:59:PM
Were there any unidentified finger prints of the BAMBER rifle?

Was there a male seen around or just after 3.50am at WHF, who could not be identified?
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Steve_uk on May 06, 2018, 03:05:PM
Were there any unidentified finger prints of the BAMBER rifle?

Was there a male seen around or just after 3.50am at WHF, who could not be identified?
You'd better ask lookout..she has her theories.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Nigel on May 06, 2018, 03:05:PM
Not in the man's character to do that..

His grand children were threaten with death, he had no choice.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Steve_uk on May 06, 2018, 03:16:PM
His grand children were threaten with death, he had no choice.
..a man who has built up his farming empire from nothing, an autodidact who expected the same obedience and work ethic from his son, whom he may have neglected in the process of his labours, and who would mete out his terrible retribution in the form of a vicious punishment beating whilst on the point of death he himself had engendered..
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Steve_uk on May 06, 2018, 03:19:PM
..he had never asked his son's opinion on anything and wasn't about to start that process, Jeremy taking his orders in the morning and retiring to Bourtree Cottage of an evening. This was Nevill's domain, to which Jeremy remained in all aspects subservient.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on May 06, 2018, 03:24:PM
JB was not what I'd have called a man of the world nor was he streetwise. He'd have probably ran in the opposite direction if he'd seen trouble ahead his dallying around proved this when fumbling for a number to phone the police. He probably dreaded the thought of facing something head on. Those of us with a fearless fighting spirit would have sped off regardless and faced whatever hit us on our arrival wouldn't we ??
His sister was no longer there to give moral support like she had been when he'd been bullied on their way to primary school.
The man was frightened of his own shadow and certainly no fighter like many 24 year olds are today. Now we have 24 year old women who can knock a man cold !
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Nigel on May 06, 2018, 03:25:PM
'X' must be very very odd, but appear 'normal'.
Almost certainly religious.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on May 06, 2018, 03:27:PM
You'd better ask lookout..she has her theories.






Now now Steve. ;D
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Nigel on May 06, 2018, 03:30:PM
I think the word 'Martyr' would be important to 'X'

He (X) probably lives alone or with his Mother, who dotes on him.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Steve_uk on May 06, 2018, 03:33:PM
JB was not what I'd have called a man of the world nor was he streetwise. He'd have probably ran in the opposite direction if he'd seen trouble ahead his dallying around proved this when fumbling for a number to phone the police. He probably dreaded the thought of facing something head on. Those of us with a fearless fighting spirit would have sped off regardless and faced whatever hit us on our arrival wouldn't we ??
His sister was no longer there to give moral support like she had been when he'd been bullied on their way to primary school.
The man was frightened of his own shadow and certainly no fighter like many 24 year olds are today. Now we have 24 year old women who can knock a man cold !
It's true he was not a natural bully, but he overcompensated this self-perceived pusillanimity with attempts at braggadocio, which only further alienated him from his contemporaries at Gresham's and his playmates at the White House. Indeed it may have been Jackie Wood who complained on the occasion of the Summer vacation that "he was turning into a nasty piece of work", and let's not forget the Headmaster's comments, Logie Bruce Lockhart that he was a "prickly boy, a relentless tease."
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Nigel on May 06, 2018, 03:33:PM
I think the word 'Martyr' would be important to 'X'

He (X) probably lives alone or with his Mother, who dotes on him.

Definitely 'X' is a Church goer...
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on May 06, 2018, 03:34:PM
..a man who has built up his farming empire from nothing, an autodidact who expected the same obedience and work ethic from his son, whom he may have neglected in the process of his labours, and who would mete out his terrible retribution in the form of a vicious punishment beating whilst on the point of death he himself had engendered..





While we're on the subject of work ethics why was it that the relatives couldn't match Nevill's acumen for business as RWB wore out his shoe leather forever going to grannie's for a handout ? Nevill himself remarked on the poor business heads on the relatives--------yet they had the same chances. Can't blame JB for that as he didn't work for the relatives.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Nigel on May 06, 2018, 03:35:PM
Definitely 'X' is a Church goer...

'X' probably struggles with GOOD and EVIL especially while attending Church.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Nigel on May 06, 2018, 03:36:PM
'X' is a mothers boy
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Steve_uk on May 06, 2018, 03:37:PM




While we're on the subject of work ethics why was it that the relatives couldn't match Nevill's acumen for business as RWB wore out his shoe leather forever going to grannie's for a handout ? Nevill himself remarked on the poor business heads on the relatives--------yet they had the same chances. Can't blame JB for that as he didn't work for the relatives.
..and yet Robert and Nevill remained friends from their racing days, a liason which Jeremy resented as the two of them conspired to maintain the family hierarchy and keep Jeremy firmly in his place.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Nigel on May 06, 2018, 03:38:PM
'X' is a mothers boy

'X' 100% still has a great interest in the BAMBER case.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Nigel on May 06, 2018, 03:41:PM
Come on CHICKEN are you a man or a women?
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on May 06, 2018, 03:44:PM
It's true he was not a natural bully, but he overcompensated this self-perceived pusillanimity with attempts at braggadocio, which only further alienated him from his contemporaries at Gresham's and his playmates at the White House. Indeed it may have been Jackie Wood who complained on the occasion of the Summer vacation that "he was turning into a nasty piece of work", and let's not forget the Headmaster's comments, Logie Bruce Lockhart that he was a "prickly boy, a relentless tease."






Prickly because he probably spent a lot of his time on his guard from those nasty individuals who delight in picking on those who've been sheltered from the outside world.
Teasing like sarcasm is a safety valve in those who don't particularly want to partake in more serious matters of using fists.
I haven't read anything pertaining to fights or a vicious nature while JB attended Greshams,or any trouble that's usually expected and sometimes accepted.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on May 06, 2018, 03:46:PM
'X' is a mothers boy






I've always maintained that " mummy's boys " end up criminals or gay.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on May 06, 2018, 03:47:PM
..and yet Robert and Nevill remained friends from their racing days, a liason which Jeremy resented as the two of them conspired to maintain the family hierarchy and keep Jeremy firmly in his place.





I don't see any other choice except to remain friendly because of their wives being sisters.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on May 06, 2018, 03:48:PM
'X' IS A CHICKEN.

A FU#KING CHICKEN.





Nigel you'll end up in the garden  ::)
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Steve_uk on May 06, 2018, 03:53:PM





Prickly because he probably spent a lot of his time on his guard from those nasty individuals who delight in picking on those who've been sheltered from the outside world.
Teasing like sarcasm is a safety valve in those who don't particularly want to partake in more serious matters of using fists.
I haven't read anything pertaining to fights or a vicious nature while JB attended Greshams,or any trouble that's usually expected and sometimes accepted.
No but in those days sometimes a fight did clear the air, and even a caning performed by the Head brought closure to the misdemeanour in question. Of course Jeremy did become aware that he was different biologically when he learned of his adoption and shared this truth with his contemporaries, who only misappropriated the trust by labelling him "The Bastard." This monicker was yet further alienation from the world around him after the primal wound and the failure to bond with Nevill and June.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: mike tesko on May 06, 2018, 04:01:PM
The problem with this ingenious if implausible theory is that going off Jeremy's version of events it was Nevill himself who during the course of the brief telephone call laid the blame on Sheila's shoulders.

Maybe, by that stage (his call to Jeremy at about 3.25am, followed by Neville's call to police at 3.26am) Neville had only been aware that Sheila had got one of the guns? It's possible, that Neville Bamber wasn't forced by either Sheila, or her accomplice to make the call to Jeremy, or the call to the police, since both calls were made one straight after the other, Neville Bamber to Jeremy, then Neville Bamber to the police (3.26am)! This is borne out by the reference when Neville spoke to Jeremy, he said, 'Sheila has got the gun', but he told the police something slightly different moments later, when Neville said, 'my daughter has got hold of one of my guns'..

To Jeremy - 'the gun'..

To the police - One of my guns'..

We know, for example, that at least two different guns were used to shoot dead Sheila, and there seems to be support for saying that not all the other 24 bullets that were fired during the tragedy, were all fired via the anshuzt rifle - everything is pointing to these killings having been carried out by use of at least two different guns, and two silencers, as well as different types of .22 ammunition!
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: mike tesko on May 06, 2018, 04:06:PM
Maybe, by that stage (his call to Jeremy at about 3.25am, followed by Neville's call to police at 3.26am) Neville had only been aware that Sheila had got one of the guns? It's possible, that Neville Bamber wasn't forced by either Sheila, or her accomplice to make the call to Jeremy, or the call to the police, since both calls were made one straight after the other, Neville Bamber to Jeremy, then Neville Bamber to the police (3.26am)! This is borne out by the reference when Neville spoke to Jeremy, he said, 'Sheila has got the gun', but he told the police something slightly different moments later, when Neville said, 'my daughter has got hold of one of my guns'..

To Jeremy - 'the gun'..

To the police - One of my guns'..

We know, for example, that at least two different guns were used to shoot dead Sheila, and there seems to be support for saying that not all the other 24 bullets that were fired during the tragedy, were all fired via the anshuzt rifle - everything is pointing to these killings having been carried out by use of at least two different guns, and two silencers, as well as different types of .22 ammunition!

I have three suspects in mind:-

(1) - Anthony Pargeter
(2) - Freddie Emani
(3) - Ralph Neville...
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: mike tesko on May 06, 2018, 04:07:PM
I have three suspects in mind:-

(1) - Anthony Pargeter
(2) - Freddie Emani
(3) - Ralph Neville...
Why (1) - Anthony Pargeter?
Why (2) - Freddie Emani
Why (3) - Ralph Neville?
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on May 06, 2018, 04:11:PM
No but in those days sometimes a fight did clear the air, and even a caning performed by the Head brought closure to the misdemeanour in question. Of course Jeremy did become aware that he was different biologically when he learned of his adoption and shared this truth with his contemporaries, who only misappropriated the trust by labelling him "The Bastard." This monicker was yet further alienation from the world around him after the primal wound and the failure to bond with Nevill and June.





No doubt it would have been the type of school which maybe used boxing gloves to settle differences between warring pupils as being the proper way instead of fist fights. I couldn't have imagined JB volunteering to blacken someone's eye.
The fact that JB was said to have bordered on the effeminate also tells me that his nature was one of sensitivity and his way of stepping aside from the more manly nature of joining in fighting.

In my day he'd have been branded as a drip !
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Nigel on May 06, 2018, 04:11:PM
Why (1) - Anthony Pargeter?
Why (2) - Freddie Emani
Why (3) - Ralph Neville?

I wouldn't leave 'Frog face" aka DB out either, the calling card under the receiver of the cream telephone speaks volumes.

Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on May 06, 2018, 04:13:PM
That man's supercilious grin gets on my nerves.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: mike tesko on May 06, 2018, 04:18:PM
Well, let's deal with (1) Anthony Pargeter first and foremost..

His .22 bolt action rifle and silencer and his .22 ammunition was present at the scene at the time of the shootings! His rifle almost certainly fired the first shot into Sheila's neck downstairs in the kitchen! His rifle was the rifle captured in one of the crime scene photographs taken in the kitchen, and which was 'not to be mentioned' by anyone in either their notes, reports or their witness statements! I also believe that the rifle to which DS Davidson spoke about in his COLP interview regarding the fact that some paint had been found on the end of a guns barrel, a gun which had been found downstairs is reference to Anthony Pargeters .22 rifle! In addition, the blood evidence attributed as belonging exclusively to Sheila, was found inside Anthony Pargeters silencer (DB/1, SJ/1, SBJ/1). In addition, some of the batch of crime scene bullets weighed too heavily to have originated from the batch of Eley .22 LR subsonic Hollow point ammunition (purchased by Neville Bamber) and Anthony Pargeter had a different variety of different types of ammunition that he kept at the farmhouse, capable of being the source for these overweighted bullets, and some underweight ones!

He and his sister were also in debt to Neville Bamber to the tune of £50,000 at the time of Neville Bambers tragic death...
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Steve_uk on May 06, 2018, 04:19:PM




No doubt it would have been the type of school which maybe used boxing gloves to settle differences between warring pupils as being the proper way instead of fist fights. I couldn't have imagined JB volunteering to blacken someone's eye.
The fact that JB was said to have bordered on the effeminate also tells me that his nature was one of sensitivity and his way of stepping aside from the more manly nature of joining in fighting.

In my day he'd have been branded as a drip !
Yes and how he earned kudos from his peers by his familiarity and knowledge of firearms.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Nigel on May 06, 2018, 04:21:PM
Yes and how he earned kudos from his peers by his familiarity and knowledge of firearms.

you seem an expert on fire arms.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on May 06, 2018, 04:22:PM
Yes and how he earned kudos from his peers by his familiarity and knowledge of firearms.






Because someone,particularly a farm worker is adept at shooting ( as was AP )  doesn't say that they go around shooting people too.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Nigel on May 06, 2018, 04:23:PM
That man's supercilious grin gets on my nerves.

Yep, 'Frog face" aka DB lying about JEREMY as per usual, and talking about himself:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcTvqLk0MWU&t=1778s

28mins 43 seconds

Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: mike tesko on May 06, 2018, 04:24:PM
Then, there is (2) - Freddie Emani...

Rumoured to be a drug dealer, Sheila's friend..

Rumours have it that Sheila had run up a drugs bill at the expense of Emani, running into tens of thousands of pounds! Was he the scruffy looking hunched man seen walking away from the farmhouse about an hour after the police first arrived there (this would put the time of this sighting at about 4.48am)?
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Steve_uk on May 06, 2018, 04:25:PM
Then, there is (2) - Freddie Emani...

Rumoured to be a drug dealer, Sheila's friend..

Rumours have it that Sheila had run up a drugs bill at the expense of Emani, running into tens of thousands of pounds! Was he the scruffy looking hunched man seen walking away from the farmhouse about an hour after the police first arrived there (this would put the time of this sighting at about 4.48am)?
But what possible motive would he have if both Sheila and the twins were killed..
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: David1819 on May 06, 2018, 04:31:PM
Yep, 'Frog face" aka DB lying about JEREMY as per usual, and talking about himself:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcTvqLk0MWU&t=1778s

28mins 43 seconds

Frog Face lol
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: mike tesko on May 06, 2018, 04:35:PM
But, my money is on (3) - Ralph Neville, the south African...

He had fled South Africa amid rumours that he was wanted in connection with a number of shootings, involving white farmers and their families! According to Jeremy he was a firearms dealer! On the morning of the tragedy he fled the UK as a hitchhiker, leaving his mobile home parked up at the farmhouse! It's too much of a coincidence that he was wanted in South Africa for shooting dead farmers and their families, and that he should be working at whf at the time of the tragedy, and he flees the country telling lies to the driver who was kind enough to give him a lift, saying some reporter or other had told him about a family who had all been shot, but Ralph Neville said, he didn't know where the shootings had been! Of course he knew, he knew because the family that got shot were the family that he had been staying with!

I think Ralph Neville was the scruffy looking hunched man seen walking away from the farmhouse after he had helped Sheila to shoot and kill the other four victims!

It is rather astonishing that when he was picked up as a hitchhiker on the morning of the tragedy, that he was standing a 100 yards or so leaning against a wall close to Head Street, Goldhanger, where Jeremy was residing! Maybe he had gone there intending to kill Jeremy, only to find that he was not home at that stage, because Jeremy was still at the scene with the police until about 9.30am...
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: mike tesko on May 06, 2018, 04:38:PM
But what possible motive would he have if both Sheila and the twins were killed..

Sheila's accomplice didn't kill Sheila, she could easily have overpowered both her children all by herself - but it makes complete sense that she had an accomplice to help her to dispose of her parents!
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: mike tesko on May 06, 2018, 04:43:PM
As I say, my money would be on Ralph Neville being Sheila Caffell's accomplice, he was involved in the shooting of white farmers in South Africa, that's why he fled to the UK, and that's why the farming Bamber family were shot and killed!

He just seems to have slipped out of the country, immediateky after the shootings in South Africa, and here in the UK and nobody has raised an eyebrow!

Alarm bells should have been ringing!

How many family murders was he suspected of having been involved in back in South Africa?
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Nigel on May 06, 2018, 04:44:PM


LOL, so funny!
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: mike tesko on May 06, 2018, 04:45:PM
As I say, my money would be on Ralph Neville being Sheila Caffell's accomplice, he was involved in the shooting of white farmers in South Africa, that's why he fled to the UK, and that's why the farming Bamber family were shot and killed!

He just seems to have slipped out of the country, immediateky after the shootings in South Africa, and here in the UK and nobody has raised an eyebrow!

Alarm bells should have been ringing!

How many family murders was he suspected of having been involved in back in South Africa?

Was Ralph Neville, the hitman?
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Nigel on May 06, 2018, 04:46:PM
Was Ralph Neville, the hitman?

If he was 'X' he was...

did he know Sheil?
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: mike tesko on May 06, 2018, 04:47:PM
Was there some kind of a pact made, involving Sheila, Ralph Neville, and or Jeremy?
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Nigel on May 06, 2018, 04:50:PM
It was a very bizarre 'suicide pact' that went wrong. ie one lived.

They either planned it as 'opening post', or 'X' bottled out.

Or both....
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: mike tesko on May 06, 2018, 04:51:PM
Was there some kind of a pact made, involving Sheila, Ralph Neville, and or Jeremy?

I know I have mentioned this before, but on one occasion when I was a serving prisoner on B Wing at HMP Full Sutton, I once said to Jeremy that I believed that Sheila had not acted alone, I said, I think she had an accomplice, to which right out of the blue, Jeremy called me a fucking clever, bastard, he said, 'You fucking clever bastard'!..

It's always stuck with me, the way he just came out with that in that way...
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on May 06, 2018, 04:52:PM
Strikes me they were all crackers. This is what happens when you make money your God.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Nigel on May 06, 2018, 04:53:PM
Strikes me they were all crackers. This is what happens when you make money your God.

Didn't AP go stark raving mad?
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: mike tesko on May 06, 2018, 04:57:PM
I know I have mentioned this before, but on one occasion when I was a serving prisoner on B Wing at HMP Full Sutton, I once said to Jeremy that I believed that Sheila had not acted alone, I said, I think she had an accomplice, to which right out of the blue, Jeremy called me a fucking clever, bastard, he said, 'You fucking clever bastard'!..

It's always stuck with me, the way he just came out with that in that way...

After this we used to discuss who was the most likeliest accomplice in the frame?

He became really convinced at one stage that Ralph Neville had been Sheila's accomplice, but he was forever claiming that his other relatives had all framed him in one way or another, so that they would all benefit from his parents estate(s), and grand mother Speakmans estate!
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on May 06, 2018, 04:59:PM
Didn't AP go stark raving mad?






Yes,he had some kind of a breakdown.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: mike tesko on May 06, 2018, 05:05:PM
After this we used to discuss who was the most likeliest accomplice in the frame?

He became really convinced at one stage that Ralph Neville had been Sheila's accomplice, but he was forever claiming that his other relatives had all framed him in one way or another, so that they would all benefit from his parents estate(s), and grand mother Speakmans estate!

Ralph Neville could have fought with Neville Bamber in the kitchen, overpowered him, and finished him off!

Everything that the prosecution said that Jeremy had done, or could have done, Ralph Neville could have and did do!

I think the jury should have been told all about Ralph Neville, why he fled from South Africa, and end up at whf and fleeing the UK immediately after the shootings. Maybe, the shootings in the whf tragedy had been replicated back in South Africa? Seems like the authorities were neglectful in tracking Ralph Neville down, here in the UK after he fled the shootings in South Africa, and likewise after he fled the UK after the shootings at whf where he had been staying!

Was this why Special Branch took an involvement in the whf tragedy?
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Nigel on May 06, 2018, 05:15:PM
Ralph Neville could have fought with Neville Bamber in the kitchen, overpowered him, and finished him off!

Everything that the prosecution said that Jeremy had done, or could have done, Ralph Neville could have and did do!

I think the jury should have been told all about Ralph Neville, why he fled from South Africa, and end up at whf and fleeing the UK immediately after the shootings. Maybe, the shootings in the whf tragedy had been replicated back in South Africa? Seems like the authorities were neglectful in tracking Ralph Neville down, here in the UK after he fled the shootings in South Africa, and likewise after he fled the UK after the shootings at whf where he had been staying!

Was this why Special Branch took an involvement in the whf tragedy?

Did Ralph Neville are you sure that was his name? as JEREMY's dad was 'RN' was this a 'nickname'?

Know Sheila?

If No

then I think SHEILA met 'X' while in Psychiatric hospital, or via drugs in Maida Vale, London.

They befriended, and had a common interest: the occult, tarot cards, Ouija boards, The devil, Good and Evil. and their relationship with God.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: mike tesko on May 06, 2018, 05:15:PM
Ralph Neville could have fought with Neville Bamber in the kitchen, overpowered him, and finished him off!

Everything that the prosecution said that Jeremy had done, or could have done, Ralph Neville could have and did do!

I think the jury should have been told all about Ralph Neville, why he fled from South Africa, and end up at whf and fleeing the UK immediately after the shootings. Maybe, the shootings in the whf tragedy had been replicated back in South Africa? Seems like the authorities were neglectful in tracking Ralph Neville down, here in the UK after he fled the shootings in South Africa, and likewise after he fled the UK after the shootings at whf where he had been staying!

Was this why Special Branch took an involvement in the whf tragedy?

Was there something unique about the no. Of shots fired during the tragedy?

7 June
8 Neville
5 Daniel
3 Nicholas?

7 8 5 3
7 5 3 8
7 3 8 5
8 5 3 7
8 3 7 5
8 7 5 3
5 3 8 7
5 7 8 3
5 8 3 7
3 7 8 5
3 8 5 7
3 5 7 8

7th August 1985..
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: mike tesko on May 06, 2018, 05:18:PM
Did Ralph Neville are you sure that was his name? as JEREMY's dad was 'RN' was this a 'nickname'?

Know Sheila?

If No

then I think SHEILA met 'X' while in Psychiatric hospital, or via drugs in Maida Vale, London.

They befriended, and had a common interest: the occult, tarot cards, Ouija boards, The devil, Good and Evil. and their relationship with God.

Jeremy said that Ralph Neville was one of Neville Bambers distant relatives, who was brought up in South Africa...

Maybe we should try to find out as much as we can about him!
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Nigel on May 06, 2018, 05:19:PM
Was there something unique about the no. Of shots fired during the tragedy?

7 June
8 Neville
5 Daniel
3 Nicholas?

7 8 5 3
7 5 3 8
7 3 8 5
8 5 3 7
8 3 7 5
8 7 5 3
5 3 8 7
5 7 8 3
5 8 3 7
3 7 8 5
3 8 5 7
3 5 7 8

7th August 1985..

were any of their relatives born in 1953 or 1935?
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: mike tesko on May 06, 2018, 05:21:PM
Was there something unique about the no. Of shots fired during the tragedy?

7 June
8 Neville
5 Daniel
3 Nicholas?

7 8 5 3
7 5 3 8
7 3 8 5
8 5 3 7
8 3 7 5
8 7 5 3
5 3 8 7
5 7 8 3
5 8 3 7
3 7 8 5
3 8 5 7
3 5 7 8

7th August 1985..

Might be something to do with the occult, numerology, or something of that nature!
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Nigel on May 06, 2018, 05:24:PM
Might be something to do with the occult, numerology, or something of that nature!

3, 5, 7 are Prime numbers

"A prime number is a whole number greater than 1 whose only factors are 1 and itself. A factor is a whole numbers that can be divided evenly into another number. "

8 is not a Prime number

2 is a Prime number
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on May 06, 2018, 05:27:PM
The number 7 has great significance in the Bible world.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Nigel on May 06, 2018, 05:29:PM
8 on its side is the infinity sign

"Modern symbolism

The infinity symbol appears on several cards of the Rider–Waite tarot deck
In modern mysticism, the infinity symbol has become identified with a variation of the ouroboros, an ancient image of a snake eating its own tail that has also come to symbolize the infinite, and the ouroboros is sometimes drawn in figure-eight form to reflect this identification, rather than in its more traditional circular form"
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Nigel on May 06, 2018, 05:30:PM
The number 7 has great significance in the Bible world.

It does.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Nigel on May 06, 2018, 05:36:PM
Modern symbolism

Rider–Waite tarot deck 'Ouroboros'
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on May 06, 2018, 05:42:PM
7 is the foundation of God's word.

7 is the number of completeness and perfection both physical and spiritual.

The word creative is used 7 times describing God's creative work.

There are 7 days in a week and God's Sabbath is on the 7th day.

The Bible was divided into 7 major divisions :
             The Law.
              The Prophets.
               The Writings or Psalms.
               The Gospels and Acts.
               The General Epistles.
                The Epistles of Paul.
                The book of Revelation.

The total number of originally inspired books was 49 or 7x7 demonstrating the absolute perfection of the Word of God.

Also at least 7 men of God : Moses,Joshua,David,Samuel,Shemaiah,Elija,Elisha.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Nigel on May 06, 2018, 05:44:PM
7 is the foundation of God's word.

7 is the number of completeness and perfection both physical and spiritual.

The word creative is used 7 times describing God's creative work.

There are 7 days in a week and God's Sabbath is on the 7th day.

The Bible was divided into 7 major divisions :
             The Law.
              The Prophets.
               The Writings or Psalms.
               The Gospels and Acts.
               The General Epistles.
                The Epistles of Paul.
                The book of Revelation.

The total number of originally inspired books was 49 or 7x7 demonstrating the absolute perfection of the Word of God.

Also at least 7 men of God : Moses,Joshua,David,Samuel,Shemaiah,Elija,Elisha.

Yes.

and 7 is the opposite of God's will, 'Evil' "the Seven deadly Sins"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_deadly_sins
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on May 06, 2018, 05:46:PM
Which was probably Sheila's bedtime story read to her by her mother and frightening her to death.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on May 06, 2018, 05:52:PM
Sheila had imagined that her family had been possessed by the Devil------which she probably " saw " that night and her only way was annhilation.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Nigel on May 06, 2018, 05:56:PM
Okay so what do we have here....


1/ There is a possibility that the Judges's summing up 'JEREMY' or 'SHEILA" is misleading to the Jury, someone else could easily and probably was involved.

2/ There were unidentified finger prints on BAMBER rifle, see above if 3rd party

3/ There was an unidentified male outside on or around 3.50am

4/ 1/ above is correct, I challenge anyone to disagree, therefore this is misleading:

Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Nigel on May 06, 2018, 05:57:PM
Okay so what do we have here....


1/ The Judges's summing up 'JEREMY' or 'SHEILA" is TOTALLY misleading to the Jury, someone else could easily and probably was involved.

2/ There were unidentified finger prints on BAMBER rifle, see above if 3rd party

3/ There was an unidentified male outside on or around 3.50am

4/ 1/ above is correct, I challenge anyone to disagree, therefore this is misleading:

"Then another point is that when she was found, there was no blood marks on her feet – on the soles of her feet. Well, you may think that is a matter of considerable importance because she had been involved in the fighting with her father as well as killing her mother, surely it is inconceivable that her feet would have been clean in the way that they were found to be, and in the way you see them to be clean from the photograph. What is suggested on behalf of the Defence is that after killing, at any rate, the father and the mother, she went and washed; and tied up with that piece of evidence is the fact that there were no marks of lead on her hands. Well, now, so far as that is concerned, you have had the opportunity yourselves to load the magazine, and see what happened to your hands which you will bear in mind, whether you think it likely that she would have had lead marks on her hands. If she would have done, then the Defence answer that by saying well, nevertheless she may have washed between loading the magazine the second time and killing herself. "As to the suggestion that she may have washed, well it is a matter to which I am sure you will give thought because it may be an important part of the evidence in this case that her hands and feet did not bear upon them either blood on her feet, or marks from the bullets on the hands, that one might have been expecting."
JUDGE'S SUMMING UP
thanks David

Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on May 06, 2018, 05:57:PM
What we don't know and are never likely to know are " visions and voices " that people see and hear !!
Only as the person themselves describes. Are they real or are they to be taken with a pinch of salt ?
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on May 06, 2018, 05:59:PM
Okay so what do we have here....


1/ There is a possibility that the Judges's summing up 'JEREMY' or 'SHEILA" is misleading to the Jury, someone else could easily and probably was involved.

2/ There were unidentified finger prints on BAMBER rifle, see above if 3rd party

3/ There was an unidentified male outside on or around 3.50am

4/ 1/ above is correct, I challenge anyone to disagree, therefore this is misleading:






What was Sheila's print doing on the rifle anyway ?
Was it a thumb print or fingerprint ?
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Nigel on May 06, 2018, 06:04:PM





What was Sheila's print doing on the rifle anyway ?
Was it a thumb print or fingerprint ?

Not sure David or Neil would know
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Nigel on May 06, 2018, 06:07:PM
I am no 'Wordsmith' but if the Jury were read my 'opening post' surely that makes three possibilities?
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on May 06, 2018, 06:17:PM
Although the case appears to be multifaceted,it isn't and shouldn't be but appears that way because of EP's shoddy workmanship.
It's not impossible that Sheila carried out the killings single-handedly and her history makes it all the more possible.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on May 06, 2018, 06:26:PM
Initially Vanezis had no problem in admitting that Sheila wouldn't have had any trouble using a rifle.
It was SJ who was forcing the issue of impossibility.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: mike tesko on May 07, 2018, 01:01:AM
...

S(3)H(5)E((5)I(1)L(3)A(1) = 18 1+8= (9)

N(5)E(5)V(6)I(1)L(3)L(3)E(5) = 28 2+8=10 1+0= (1)

J(1)U(6)N(5)E(5) = 17 1+7= (8)

D(2)A(1)N(5)I(1)E(5)L(3) = 17 1+7= (8)

N(5)I(1)C(3)H(5)O(7)L(3)A(1)S(3) = 28 2+8= 10 1+0= (1)


J(1)E(5)R(2)E(5)M(3)Y(1) - (17) 1 + 7 = (8)

B(2)A(1)M(3)B(2)E(5)R(2) = 15 1+5 = (6)
C(3)A(1)F(8)F(8)E(5)L(3)L(3) = 31 3+1 = (4)


Sheila - 9 (alone)

Neville + June - 9 (added together)
Neville +  Daniel - 9 (added together)
June + Nicholas - 9 (added together)
Daniel + Nicholas - 9 (added together)

Total Sum - Sheila(9) Neville + June(9) Neville + Daniel(9) June +Nicholas(9) Daniel + Nicholas(9) = 45 4+5 = (9)

NUMBER of Shots Fired

T(4) W(6) E(5) N(5) T(4) Y(1) F(8) I(1) V(6) E(5) = 45 4+5 = (9)

4 Murders (Neville, June, Daniel, Nicholas) + 5 Deaths (Neville, June, Daniel, Nicholas) and Sheila (45) 4+5 = (9)

Wednesday (+) 7 / 8 / 1985

W(6)E(5)D(4)N(5)E(5)S(3)D(2)A(1)Y(1) - 34
7 8 1985 - 38

Total Sum - 34 + 38 = (72) 7 + 2 = (9)

Add the value of the names Sheila (9), Neville (1), June (8), Daniel (8), Nicholas (1), Jeremy (8), Bamber (6), and Caffell (4) together, it produces (45) 4 + 5 = (9)...


(1) - https://youtu.be/LOJ50EUbWzg
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: mike tesko on May 07, 2018, 03:47:AM
How about the following:-

Neville was shot 8 times, by Sheila (whose name value is 9)  9 - 8 = 1 (the value of Neville's name)!

June was shot 7 times (one shot less than Neville whose name value is 1)

Daniel was shot 5 times (his name value is 8), the difference between both produces a value of 3

Daniel was shot 3 times less than Neville

Nicholas was shot 3 times (his name value is 1), the difference between both produces a value of 2

Nicholas was shot 2 times less than Daniel

Here...

Neville shot 8 times, he has a name value of 1, (8 - 1 = 7 representing the total number of shots received by June) or 8 + 1 = (9) Sheila's name value, the total no. of shots received by the two child victims of the tragedy was (8) equalling the no. of shots received by Neville (8), add together the total no. of shots received by Neville (8), Daniel (5), and Nicholas (3), it produces a total of 16 shots, 1 + 6 = 7 (the total number of shots received by June). If you take the total no. of shots (7) received by June from the total of the accumulated shots previously mentioned (16), 16 - 7 = (9)..

Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: mike tesko on May 07, 2018, 03:57:AM
Add the values of Sheila's name (9), to the date of the shootings, 'WEDNESDAY' 7 - 8 - 1985 (9), it produces a total of 18 (1 + 8 = 9)..

Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: mike tesko on May 07, 2018, 04:05:AM
'One dead male', and 'One dead female' found in kitchen upon entry as per police radio message log contents, timed at 7.38am (7 + 3 + 8 = 18), 1 + 8 = (9).

'A further three bodies found upstairs' by 8.10am (8 + 1 = 9)!
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: mike tesko on May 07, 2018, 04:07:AM
Neville's call to Jeremy at 3.24am (3 + 2 + 4 = 9)..
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: mike tesko on May 07, 2018, 04:09:AM
Jeremy's call to Julie Mugford' terminated at 3.33am (3 + 3 + 3 = 9)..
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: mike tesko on May 07, 2018, 04:49:AM
I am convinced that the cops tampered with the batch of crime scene ammunition, compromising of bullets, and spent cartridge cases!

We now know as a result of information received by ballistic expert 'RENSHAW' from work he carried out at Birdwell armoury in 2004, that there still existed a total of 14 spent cartridge cases in storage at Huntingdon Lab' under an exhibit reference of MDF/100. It is strongly suspected that these 14 casings were part of the original batch of crime scene ammunition found at the scene, and possibly fired by way of the second rifle!

If true, and by my calculation , there has to exist some basic clues somewhere in the case files, capable of supporting it!

Well, Sheila, or Sheila and her accomplice, only fired 23 of the 25 shots during the tragedy!

You will all see very shortly that Essex police did shoot Sheila dead on the bedroom floor..

That issue to one side for the moment, I am mindful that according to the ballistic evidence, there existed 12 whole bullets, 9 nearly whole bullets, three fragmented bullets, and a half a bullet! Based on the recorded weights of all these bullets, of the 12 whole bullets none of these could have belonged to the batch of Eley subsonic hollow pointed ammunition claimed to have been the sole source used in all the shootings, because 7 of these were too heavy, and the other 5 were much to light! 3 fragmented bullets could not be associated Ballistically with the anshuzt rifle...

This leaves only 9 nearly whole bullets (9) linked to the Anshuzt rifle plus the half bullet...

Add this unique batch of (9) nearly whole bullets, to the original 14 bullets associated to the 14 spent bullet cases still being kept at the Lab' under exhibi 'MDF/100', its combined total equals 23 (the correct number of shots fired by either Sheila, herself, or by Sheila and her accomplice)  23 - 14 = (9)..
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Nigel on May 10, 2018, 08:19:PM
While we wait for Mike to have a well deserved cuppa!, this is my view on what happened:

‘The accomplice’, was let in to WHF by SHEILA while the rest of the family were in bed.

‘The accomplice’ killed JUNE and NEVILLE. *

Then either the accomplice or SHEILA killed the twins. *

‘The accomplice’ forces NEVILLE to phone JEREMY and say "Please come over. Your sister has gone crazy and has got the gun."
This was to lure Jeremy with a view to kill him. Also exonerating the accomplice from crime.

NEVILLE forced to call the '5th furthest away police station', allowing time to kill JEREMY when he arrives at WHF. Importantly again exonerating ‘the accomplice’ from crime.

This was high risk for ‘The accomplice’ but he lived minutes walk away from WHF and felt he could fade into the night or pretend he heard shots and came to see if he could 'help'.

‘The accomplice’ places two silencers in cupboard under stairs

Preparing for JEREMY,

He sees/hears the cops arrive.

SHEILA let the accomplice out.

SHEILA then took her own life.

‘The accomplice’ is the 'unidentified male'.

* I maybe swayed by Mike on these two points, but ‘The accomplice’ and SHEILA were involved.



‘The accomplice’ was known to SHEILA and the family almost certainly from a young age.
He lived/lives VERY nearby.

IF ‘THE ACCOMPLICE” IS READING THIS I URGE YOU TO VISIT A POLICE STATION IMMEDIATELY AND EXPLAIN WHAT HAPPENED AT WHF IN THE EARLY HOURS OF WEDNESDAY 7 AUGUST 1985…..
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on May 10, 2018, 09:39:PM
I've never been comfortable with the fact that Nevill was being threatened. He'd spoken about the shoot ( annual event ) then allegedly to BW about " never turning his back " on someone ? and latterly the phone-call which a friend of Nevill's had witnessed while being with Nevill at WHF. In fact there were two phone-calls which had left Nevill shaken because of the " threat ". So it would have appeared that Nevill had been scared of someone---------------but it wasn't Jeremy.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on May 10, 2018, 09:42:PM
Before these threats Nevill had given Jeremy a piece of land to farm-------should something go wrong with/at WHF. Why would Nevill have thought that ? What could go wrong ?
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on May 10, 2018, 09:48:PM
Whoever it was wanted Jeremy out of the way too judging by the forced call that Nevill made to him,hence why Nevill hadn't rang earlier when everything kicked off.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on May 10, 2018, 09:58:PM
Someone definitely wanted Jeremy out of the way and there's a possibility that Jeremy may have twigged which is why he dawdled about looking for a phone number hanging fire. Whether or not his father ever hinted at anything we won't know and even if JB mentioned anything nobody would believe him anyway :(
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Nigel on May 11, 2018, 08:25:AM
While we wait for Mike to have a well deserved cuppa!, this is my view on what happened:

‘The accomplice’, was let in to WHF by SHEILA while the rest of the family were in bed.

‘The accomplice’ killed JUNE and NEVILLE. *

Then either the accomplice or SHEILA killed the twins. *

‘The accomplice’ forces NEVILLE to phone JEREMY and say "Please come over. Your sister has gone crazy and has got the gun."
This was to lure Jeremy with a view to kill him.
Also exonerating the accomplice from crime.

NEVILLE forced to call the '5th furthest away police station', allowing time to kill JEREMY when he arrives at WHF. Importantly again exonerating ‘the accomplice’ from crime.

This was high risk for ‘The accomplice’ but he lived minutes walk away from WHF and felt he could fade into the night or pretend he heard shots and came to see if he could 'help'.

‘The accomplice’ places two silencers in cupboard under stairs

Preparing for JEREMY,

He sees/hears the cops arrive.

SHEILA let the accomplice out.

SHEILA then took her own life.

‘The accomplice’ is the 'unidentified male'.

* I maybe swayed by Mike on these two points, but ‘The accomplice’ and SHEILA were involved.



‘The accomplice’ was known to SHEILA and the family almost certainly from a young age.
He lived/lives VERY nearby.

IF ‘THE ACCOMPLICE” IS READING THIS I URGE YOU TO VISIT A POLICE STATION IMMEDIATELY AND EXPLAIN WHAT HAPPENED AT WHF IN THE EARLY HOURS OF WEDNESDAY 7 AUGUST 1985…..

NEVILLE was trying to save JEREMY, by blocking the Kitchen door while sat in the chair, leaning against another chair.

Trying desperately, in his dying breaths to protect JEREMY from the ‘The accomplice’ and SHEILA.

NEVILLE, you are a brave thoughtful caring gentleman.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Nigel on May 11, 2018, 08:33:AM
NEVILLE was trying to save JEREMY, by blocking the Kitchen door while sat in the chair, leaning against another chair.

Trying desperately, in his dying breaths to protect JEREMY from the ‘The accomplice’ and SHEILA.

NEVILLE, you are a brave thoughtful caring gentleman.

NEVILLE had been forced to put JEREMY in a life threatening situation.

He did his very best to not expose JEREMY to this threat, by blocking the door, even mortally wounded and a few last breaths on this earth left.

Good God, your dad loves you JEREMY with all his heart and soul.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on May 11, 2018, 09:33:AM
It's also a possibility that Nevill couldn't get to phone the police if he'd been in a hostage situation,hoping that by phoning Jeremy he'd do the job for him.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on May 11, 2018, 10:34:AM
The recent very sad mass murder/suicide in Perth,Australia was rounded off by a telling poster as saying,I quote " all became too much RIP," unquote. A powerful truth.
This tragedy also involved a farmhouse/farm and guns. 4 children and 3 adults. R.I.P.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Adam on May 11, 2018, 10:43:AM
I don't think there is much chance of Sheila's accomplice coming forward after 33 years. If still alive.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on May 11, 2018, 10:51:AM
You're joking aren't you ? How many killers have ever come forward ?
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on May 11, 2018, 11:14:AM
A murderer will flee abroad or hang/shoot himself before sentence,or if imprisoned will usually commit suicide by hanging or overdose to avoid a long sentence-------they don't plead innocence for 33 years !!
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Adam on May 11, 2018, 11:28:AM
You're joking aren't you ? How many killers have ever come forward ?

Nigel was asking Sheila's accomplice to come forward.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on May 11, 2018, 11:28:AM
How do we know if Sheila had willingly let someone in ? We don't do we ? We know that her parents weren't happy with the people she'd mixed with.
Those who say an entrance could have been gained through a downstairs window.Why did it have to be Jeremy when an open window is an invitation to both strangers,friends and acquaintances  ? This " open window " SHOULD have led to a long line of enquiries !! But didn't.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on May 11, 2018, 11:57:AM
Jeremy didn't have to tell EP or anyone where he left the rifle before returning home.
Jeremy didn't have to mention that his father had called him.

Both above immediately draws attention to those who say " he covered himself " early in the case but surely the way to cover yourself is to keep your mouth shut ? Which is what Jeremy would have done if he'd been a " psychopathic killer " or even an accomplice. Besides which if he'd KNOWN he did it he'd have killed himself before now,as they do,or even attempt to.   

How would the case have gone had there been no phone-call ? ( if JB hadn't mentioned his dad phoning )
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Nigel on May 11, 2018, 12:25:PM
8 mins 27 seconds

DAVID BOUTFLOUR hearing 'the news'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcTvqLk0MWU&t=517s

at 8 mins 50 seconds it appears that DAVID BOUTFLOUR has a 'slip of the tongue' and says he thought JEREMY was ALSO dead.

Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on May 11, 2018, 12:45:PM
I remember Patti posting a few years back about the marks on the back of Nevill. Marks that could have come from the rifle's barrel forcing him to call Jeremy but limiting the conversation--------meaning that Jeremy could well have driven to the farmhouse unaccompanied and dead into the bargain !
These marks were of a " prodding " movement and deliberately made in a gesture of urgency. Then the conversation was cut by depressing the button on top of the phone.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on May 11, 2018, 12:47:PM
There are too many unanswered questions to have blamed one man !
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on May 11, 2018, 12:48:PM
A forensic psychologist should have been brought in.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Nigel on May 11, 2018, 12:53:PM
NEVILLE was forced to make the phone call to JEREMY no doubt about that.
The call was abruptly ended by 'the accomplice, as there was another call to make, to the '5th furthest away police station'.

Mike,

Please can you confirm that the bullet wounds suffered to NEVILLE in the bedroom are consistent to the shooter not wanting to kill NEVILLE, just wound him?

Thanks

Nigel
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on May 11, 2018, 12:55:PM
Sadly these " events " occur at around 3am.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on May 11, 2018, 01:00:PM
If JB had been the killer he'd have killed his father in the bedroom along with the others,but for reasons unknown Nevill was forced into the kitchen from his bedroom-----------where a working phone was.?
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on May 11, 2018, 06:42:PM
It's not impossible that Sheila had let someone in-------after Jeremy left. Nevill was back out working and the back door would have been open to all and sundry.
 Not enough questions were asked because everyone's main focus centred on JB. It HAD to be him do or die !! Very dodgy. Very suspicious.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Adam on May 13, 2018, 11:02:AM
Not sure about Sheila's accomplice getting Nevill to ring the 5th furthest away police station.

This would have been 16/26 minutes after Nevill had been forced to phone Jeremy. What was happening during this 16/26 gap ?

It's also too much of a coincidence that both Jeremy & Nevill would both phone the 5th furthest away police station.

The best option would be to wait for Jeremy to arrive at WHF alone. Then Sheila's accomplice can kill Jeremy. Then Sheila's accomplice can get Nevill to ring Chelmsford police before killing him.

As everyone knows,  Jeremy did not go within 50 feet of WHF after getting Nevill's call.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on May 13, 2018, 11:11:AM
Not sure about Sheila's accomplice getting Nevill to ring the
5th furthest away police station. This would have been 16/26 minutes after Nevill had been forced to phone Jeremy. What was happening during this 16/26 gap ?

It's also too much of a coincidence that both Jeremy & Nevill would both phone the 5th furthest away police station.

The best option would be to wait for Jeremy to arrive at WHF alone. Then Sheila's accomplice can kill Jeremy. Then Sheila's accomplice can get Nevill to ring Chelmsford police before killing him.

As everyone knows,  Jeremy did not go within 50 feet of WHF after getting Nevill's call.






Both men were " killing time " ( excuse the pun ) as when dealing with the unknown there's so much to be explained or asked that the biggest enemy is the time you have. Nevill trying to ward off his killer in order to use the phone at all and Jeremy wanting to know the full situation of his dad's call,hence why Jeremy tried in vain to get back to his dad but found the line engaged.

Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Nigel on May 13, 2018, 12:09:PM
Not sure about Sheila's accomplice getting Nevill to ring the 5th furthest away police station.

This would have been 16/26 minutes after Nevill had been forced to phone Jeremy. What was happening during this 16/26 gap ?

It's also too much of a coincidence that both Jeremy & Nevill would both phone the 5th furthest away police station.

The best option would be to wait for Jeremy to arrive at WHF alone. Then Sheila's accomplice can kill Jeremy. Then Sheila's accomplice can get Nevill to ring Chelmsford police before killing him.

As everyone knows,  Jeremy did not go within 50 feet of WHF after getting Nevill's call.

NEVILL would never have allowed that to happen, 'the accomplice' knew this.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Adam on May 13, 2018, 01:18:PM
NEVILL would never have allowed that to happen, 'the accomplice' knew this.

The other option was for Sheila's accomplice to kill Nevill after he had rang Jeremy.

Then after Jeremy arrived alone & had been killed, Sheila's accomplice could ring the 5th furthest away police station & pretend to be Nevill.

Not sure why Sheila & her accomplice would want to alert the police. Their aim was for Sheila to die after the other 5 family members had been killed. Once achieved, it would have been easier for Sheila's accomplice to leave the front door ajar & for Sheila to leave a suicide note.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Adam on May 13, 2018, 01:29:PM
With the two calls to Chelmsford police, it seems that both Jeremy & Nevill/Sheila's accomplice rang them.

Sheila & her accomplice were confident Jeremy would not call the police himself & would arrive alone a long time before the police arrived. Giving them time to kill Jeremy.

Sheila and her accomplice would have waited for Jeremy. Upon seeing police cars arrive instead, Sheila's accomplice exited WHF leaving Sheila still alive.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Adam on May 13, 2018, 01:42:PM
Not sure how Nevill was shot 4 times upstairs.

He died after his call to either Jeremy or the police. Both calls being in the kitchen.

Why would Nevill run upstairs or be marched upstairs by Sheila's accomplice after making one of these phone calls ?

There are also big time constraints after Nevill phoned Chelmsford police at 3.26/36am. To go upstairs, get shot 4 times, go downstairs, fight, get shot another 4 times, get his back burnt, get put on a goal scuttle, then Sheila's accomplice to escape,  before the police arrive is amazing.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Adam on May 13, 2018, 01:53:PM
It has to be assumed that no one else in WHF had been shot, prior to Nevill ringing Jeremy & the 5th furthest police station. Or if they had been shot, Nevill was not aware.

Nevill would not just agree to ring Jeremy & then Chelmsford police 16/26 minutes later, if he knew his wife & grand sons had been shot.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Adam on May 13, 2018, 01:55:PM
It is surprising Nevill's call to Jeremy was so abrupt & panic sounding. Which resulted in Jeremy calling Chelmsford police instead of going to WHF alone.

I would have thought that Sheila's accomplice would have told Nevill to be as calm as possible & certainly not say the words 'crazy' & 'gun' before putting the phone down without giving Jeremy a chance to speak.

Nevill was certainly a lot calmer when ringing the police 16/26 minutes later.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: David1819 on May 13, 2018, 02:19:PM
I see Adam is back trolling again. 

Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Adam on May 13, 2018, 02:23:PM
NGB can you remove David's post. He's goading again.

You have said 'posters should focus on the post & not the poster'.

Thank you.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Adam on May 13, 2018, 02:28:PM
Anyway, David the 'Bamber protector' on the Blue forum has resurfaced. Focusing on the guilter rather than his post as always.

Hopefully he will disappear as quickly as he resurfaced. Maybe back to his bedroom to find another 'forensic evidence breakthrough' everyone can laugh at.

Mike can maybe give a scenario on how Sheila & her accomplice committed the massacre, including Nevill's two phone calls.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Adam on May 13, 2018, 02:37:PM
Mike's previously given a Sheila scenario, saying 'by shooting them'. He now believes Sheila had an accomplice. Hopefully his new Sheila/accomplice scenario will be a bit more detailed.

Lookout seems to be leaning towards Sheila having an accomplice. Maybe she can give a scenario.

Roch's scenario has always been 'Sheila shot them but I can't explain the phone calls'. Maybe if he follows Mike, Nigel & Lookout & considers an accomplice, that may assist him in working things out more.

Hopefully Nigel will respond to my recent posts.

David just surfaces to focus on guilters as some sort of weirdo 'Bamber protector'.

Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: mike tesko on May 13, 2018, 04:14:PM
With the two calls to Chelmsford police, it seems that both Jeremy & Nevill/Sheila's accomplice rang them.

Sheila & her accomplice were confident Jeremy would not call the police himself & would arrive alone a long time before the police arrived. Giving them time to kill Jeremy.

Sheila and her accomplice would have waited for Jeremy. Upon seeing police cars arrive instead, Sheila's accomplice exited WHF leaving Sheila still alive.

This seems plausible to me..
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Nigel on May 13, 2018, 04:17:PM
Not sure how Nevill was shot 4 times upstairs.

He died after his call to either Jeremy or the police. Both calls being in the kitchen.

Why would Nevill run upstairs or be marched upstairs by Sheila's accomplice after making one of these phone calls ?

There are also big time constraints after Nevill phoned Chelmsford police at 3.26/36am. To go upstairs, get shot 4 times, go downstairs, fight, get shot another 4 times, get his back burnt, get put on a goal scuttle, then Sheila's accomplice to escape,  before the police arrive is amazing.

NEVILL and JUNE were in bed.

My belief it JUNE was either dead or mortally wounded. NEVILL witnessed his wife and soul mate being shot. Words cannot express how he must have felt.

He was then frogmarched to the Kitchen cream coloured phone......

'The accomplice' using the muzzle of the Wolf bolt action rife prodding NEVILL'S back forcing him down the stairs towards and into the kitchen.

The twins were still alive at this stage.

NEVILL was threatened to comply with phone calls or TWINS would die like JUNE, NEVILL had no choice but to phone JEREMY and the Police.

NEVILL tried his VERY best (already wounded) in ’a ferocious fight for life'. He was mortally wounded but still with JEREMY in mind blocked entrance to the kitchen, in a valiant effort to protect JEREMY….
The son he loved dearly.

NEVILL never returned up the stairs.

He died in the chair blocking the kitchen door.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Adam on May 13, 2018, 06:31:PM
This seems plausible to me..

Thanks Mike.

Do you not believe Sheila's accomplice would tell Nevill to be more calm & give Jeremy more information in the phone call to him ?

Nevill just saying 'Sheila's gone crazy & she's got the gun'  then putting the phone down, would not result in Jeremy arriving at WHF alone.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Adam on May 13, 2018, 06:53:PM
NEVILL and JUNE were in bed.

My belief it JUNE was either dead or mortally wounded. NEVILL witnessed his wife and soul mate being shot. Words cannot express how he must have felt.

He was then frogmarched to the Kitchen cream coloured phone......

'The accomplice' using the muzzle of the Wolf bolt action rife prodding NEVILL'S back forcing him down the stairs towards and into the kitchen.

The twins were still alive at this stage.

NEVILL was threatened to comply with phone calls or TWINS would die like JUNE, NEVILL had no choice but to phone JEREMY and the Police.

NEVILL tried his VERY best (already wounded) in ’a ferocious fight for life'. He was mortally wounded but still with JEREMY in mind blocked entrance to the kitchen, in a valiant effort to protect JEREMY….
The son he loved dearly.

NEVILL never returned up the stairs.

He died in the chair blocking the kitchen door.

If Nevill saw a stranger shooting June, do you not believe he would fight back or attempt to escape. Nevill letting Sheila's accomplice order him to phone Jeremy & the police 16/26 minutes later is very surprising. 

The bullet casing evidence is Nevill was shot 4 times upstairs 
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Nigel on May 13, 2018, 07:09:PM
If Nevill saw a stranger shooting June, do you not believe he would fight back or attempt to escape. Nevill letting Sheila's accomplice order him to phone Jeremy & the police 16/26 minutes later is very surprising. 

The bullet casing evidence is Nevill was shot 4 times upstairs

Adam, show some respect to NEVILL.

I have been clear about by admiration and respect for NEVILL.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on May 13, 2018, 07:22:PM
I wonder why AE had "wondered why Jeremy wasn't dead ?"  How odd that she'd order black flowers " knowing " that JB had committed the crime ?
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on May 13, 2018, 07:28:PM
JB wasn't dead because he'd lived at Goldhanger or wasn't AE aware of that either ? Most strange.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: mike tesko on June 04, 2018, 03:27:PM
Thanks Mike.

Do you not believe Sheila's accomplice would tell Nevill to be more calm & give Jeremy more information in the phone call to him ?

Nevill just saying 'Sheila's gone crazy & she's got the gun'  then putting the phone down, would not result in Jeremy arriving at WHF alone.

I don't believe that after the short call to Jeremy that Neville Bamber simply put the phone down, since after Neville said what he said to Jeremy, he quickly obtained a dialing tone and he telephoned the police as per the 3.26am, telephone log contents, 'DAUGHTER GONE BERSERK', and 'MY DAUGHTER HAS GOT HOLD OF ONE OF MY GUNS'...
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: mike tesko on June 04, 2018, 03:30:PM
I don't believe that after the short call to Jeremy that Neville Bamber simply put the phone down, since after Neville said what he said to Jeremy, he quickly obtained a dialing tone and he telephoned the police as per the 3.26am, telephone log contents, 'DAUGHTER GONE BERSERK', and 'MY DAUGHTER HAS GOT HOLD OF ONE OF MY GUNS'...

Whilst Neville Bamber was busy contacting the police, Jeremy's attempt to re-establish contact with his dad at whf were met by the monotonous sound of an 'engagement tone', a feature which is consistent with Neville Bamber having cut the connection he had with Jeremy, to enable him to make that all important phone call to the police at 3.26am!
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: mike tesko on June 04, 2018, 03:39:PM
Essex police, and the prosecution went out of their way to pretend that if Neville Bamber had hypothetically telephoned Jeremy (as claimed by Jeremy), that Jeremy would have been unable to ring his dad back and get an 'engaged tone', or the police, or his girlfriend, because several minutes would need to have elapsed before his phone 'reset' itself!

This of course was not true!

All that Neville Bamber had to do, was say what he needed to say to Jeremy, then depress the receiver to get a dialing tone, followed by the telephone no. of the police - this I believe was what happened! Jeremy's account being verified by the timed record of Neville Bambers 3.26am call that he made to Essex police, 'DAUGHTER GONE BERSERK', and 'MY DAUGHTER HAS GOT HOLD OF ONE OF MY GUNS'...
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on June 04, 2018, 04:23:PM
I think EP had got baffled at hearing two " Mr Bamber's " and only realised there were indeed two until it was too late to admit it. It doesn't take much to confuse them.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Jane on June 04, 2018, 04:34:PM
I think EP had got baffled at hearing two " Mr Bamber's " and only realised there were indeed two until it was too late to admit it. It doesn't take much to confuse them.

Whilst it's acceptable, but not a given, that Nevill, HAD he called the police, would have called himself MR Bamber, it highly unlikely that Jeremy would have called himself anything other than Jeremy Bamber. I see you taken another dig at police.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on June 04, 2018, 04:40:PM
Whilst it's acceptable, but not a given, that Nevill, HAD he called the police, would have called himself MR Bamber, it highly unlikely that Jeremy would have called himself anything other than Jeremy Bamber. I see you taken another dig at police.





Aw,c'mon,with so much said about JB's arrogance etc etc,he'd have called himself MR as in " important "
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on June 04, 2018, 04:43:PM
I worked with two members of staff at the hospital------both were married to police officers and one whose remark I'll never forget was that some " were unbelievably thick ".Those were her words which she'd repeated from her husband.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Jane on June 04, 2018, 05:24:PM




Aw,c'mon,with so much said about JB's arrogance etc etc,he'd have called himself MR as in " important "


Well, he must have given forenames because I believe both were written.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Jane on June 04, 2018, 05:33:PM
I worked with two members of staff at the hospital------both were married to police officers and one whose remark I'll never forget was that some " were unbelievably thick ".Those were her words which she'd repeated from her husband.

So because one woman said that her husband said that some were unbelievably thick you're going to tar them all with the same brush? I'm inclined to think that the "unbelievably thick" turn up in every walk of life. I wonder if they're labelled according to the IQ of the person who's comparing them with themselves?
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on June 04, 2018, 05:55:PM
So because one woman said that her husband said that some were unbelievably thick you're going to tar them all with the same brush? I'm inclined to think that the "unbelievably thick" turn up in every walk of life. I wonder if they're labelled according to the IQ of the person who's comparing them with themselves?






You won't get anywhere surmising how I think !
This was said in the late 80's early 90's when I had the greatest respect for the police,especially those who were on the beat in the area where they knew they could get a good cup of tea and biccies too.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Jane on June 04, 2018, 06:09:PM





You won't get anywhere surmising how I think !
This was said in the late 80's early 90's when I had the greatest respect for the police,especially those who were on the beat in the area where they knew they could get a good cup of tea and biccies too.

Did you not see the question mark, or did you choose to ignore it so you could have a dig? NOWHERE was I "surmising" how you think. I don't care how you think. What you demonstrate of how you think, I don't much like, and I don't care when it was that you heard the remark, what I said stands whatever decade you name. In all walks of life there will be those found who are unbelievably thick, although it's relative to the intelligence of whomsoever is making the observation.
They were good day when the local bobby dropped by for tea and biccies. In the evenings it might be whiskey. The doctor always had a G&T.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Caroline on June 04, 2018, 06:40:PM
Did you not see the question mark, or did you choose to ignore it so you could have a dig? NOWHERE was I "surmising" how you think. I don't care how you think. What you demonstrate of how you think, I don't much like, and I don't care when it was that you heard the remark, what I said stands whatever decade you name. In all walks of life there will be those found who are unbelievably thick, although it's relative to the intelligence of whomsoever is making the observation.
They were good day when the local bobby dropped by for tea and biccies. In the evenings it might be whiskey. The doctor always had a G&T.

Hope they didn't have hip flasks because that makes a person an alcoholic you know?  ::)
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Jane on June 04, 2018, 06:43:PM
Hope they didn't have hip flasks because that makes a person an alcoholic you know?  ::)
[/quote

 :-X :-X :-X ;)
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on June 04, 2018, 06:56:PM
On duty too,tut tut.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on June 04, 2018, 06:59:PM
The GP who first examined Sheila was also Grahame's ( Lugg ) GP who'd said the man's breath always reeked of ale during surgery.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Jane on June 04, 2018, 07:05:PM
The GP who first examined Sheila was also Grahame's ( Lugg ) GP who'd said the man's breath always reeked of ale during surgery.


Like so much else, it's relative, isn't it? I guess if one was a teetotaler, one drink would smell like someone had drunk a brewery. My friend's husband was a doctor back in the days when surgery's were open 7 days a week. He'd get in around 9pm after a long day, have a drink or two, go to bed and the phone would ring about 2am. By today's standards he would have been over the limit. Nevertheless he never refused to go out to one of his patients.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on June 04, 2018, 07:14:PM

Like so much else, it's relative, isn't it? I guess if one was a teetotaler, one drink would smell like someone had drunk a brewery. My friend's husband was a doctor back in the days when surgery's were open 7 days a week. He'd get in around 9pm after a long day, have a drink or two, go to bed and the phone would ring about 2am. By today's standards he would have been over the limit. Nevertheless he never refused to go out to one of his patients.






There used to be locums who stood in for such eventualities unless you lived in the dark ages.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Caroline on June 04, 2018, 07:20:PM
The GP who first examined Sheila was also Grahame's ( Lugg ) GP who'd said the man's breath always reeked of ale during surgery.

He didn't examin Sheila during surgery. It was the early morning - the would have slept and I very much doubt even he could drink while asleep!
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Jane on June 04, 2018, 07:23:PM





There used to be locums who stood in for such eventualities unless you lived in the dark ages.

This is probably going back to 1950/60. There were just 2 doctors in the practice. They lived way out in the sticks, several miles from their village surgery which was several miles from the nearest big town. Surely you remember how it was? My mother's doctor came out to her brother in the 1940's in his pyjamas, diagnozed pneumonia, took him into hospital and drained his lungs still wearing his pyjamas and carpet slippers.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Jane on June 04, 2018, 07:27:PM
He didn't examin Sheila during surgery. It was the early morning - the would have slept and I very much doubt even he could drink while asleep!


I seem to recall that Grahame had had one or two disputes with him. I can't imagine such didn't colour his view of him. Perhaps causing one nip to become a bottle full?
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on June 04, 2018, 07:32:PM
This is probably going back to 1950/60. There were just 2 doctors in the practice. They lived way out in the sticks, several miles from their village surgery which was several miles from the nearest big town. Surely you remember how it was? My mother's doctor came out to her brother in the 1940's in his pyjamas, diagnozed pneumonia, took him into hospital and drained his lungs still wearing his pyjamas and carpet slippers.





I was going to mention the 40's and I too remember a doctor with his pyjamas on under his trousers,spats and all,when I developed scarlet fever and was whisked to a sanatorium in a rickety ambulance.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Jane on June 04, 2018, 07:48:PM




I was going to mention the 40's and I too remember a doctor with his pyjamas on under his trousers,spats and all,when I developed scarlet fever and was whisked to a sanatorium in a rickety ambulance.

I certainly wouldn't wish my doctor to work such hours, but my friend's husband and his partner were both young men. They worked one weekend on and one off but they ran their surgery 7 days a week with the help of their wives, both nurses -one a doctor's daughter- who had to take their toddlers with them. Incredible!
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on June 04, 2018, 07:54:PM
I certainly wouldn't wish my doctor to work such hours, but my friend's husband and his partner were both young men. They worked one weekend on and one off but they ran their surgery 7 days a week with the help of their wives, both nurses -one a doctor's daughter- who had to take their toddlers with them. Incredible!






Makes you wonder why the same can't be done today.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Jane on June 04, 2018, 07:58:PM





Makes you wonder why the same can't be done today.

That's a hell of a lot of working hours, though. I'm not privy to all the mistakes made, but I know there were some.Thankfully, their 5 children all turned out splendidly.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: petey on June 05, 2018, 01:50:AM





You won't get anywhere surmising how I think !
This was said in the late 80's early 90's when I had the greatest respect for the police,especially those who were on the beat in the area where they knew they could get a good cup of tea and biccies too.

You had the greatest respect for the police in the late 80s and early 90s, when Hillsborough was in April 1989!

Please tell me you're not being serious????
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on June 05, 2018, 09:57:AM
You had the greatest respect for the police in the late 80s and early 90s, when Hillsborough was in April 1989!

Please tell me you're not being serious????






I can't do right for doing wrong can I ?? ::)
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: petey on June 05, 2018, 11:27:AM





I can't do right for doing wrong can I ?? ::)

Was a simple question.

If u were being honest and you stand by what u said then that’s your call.

Personally, I wouldn’t dream of making such a claim given my connections to Liverpool and the abhorent actions of certain members of police in April 1989.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on June 05, 2018, 11:29:AM
Was a simple question.

If u were being honest and you stand by what u said then that’s your call.

Personally, I wouldn’t dream of making such a claim given my connections to Liverpool and the abhorent actions of certain members of police in April 1989.





" Certain members of police "-------------I don't generalise !! Do you ??
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: petey on June 05, 2018, 11:35:AM




" Certain members of police "-------------I don't generalise !! Do you ??

You don’t generalise? So does that mean that you did indeed have the greatest of respect for the police in late 80s and early 90s, irrespective of Hillsborough?

My opinions towards the police from 1989 onwards were negative given what they had done at Hillsborough. This is obviously said with the caveat that I was very young at the time so my opinions were shaped by family influences and experiences of people who had been at the game.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on June 05, 2018, 11:40:AM
You don’t generalise? So does that mean that you did indeed have the greatest of respect for the police in late 80s and early 90s, irrespective of Hillsborough?

My opinions towards the police from 1989 onwards were negative given what they had done at Hillsborough. This is obviously said with the caveat that I was very young at the time so my opinions were shaped my family influences and experiences of people who had been at the game.





Unless you didn't notice I indexed " certain members of police " meaning just them along with those incompetents known as the Essex police !
I would have said the mid 80's onward as EP had set a precedent to expect the worse in policing.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Caroline on June 05, 2018, 11:45:AM





You won't get anywhere surmising how I think !
This was said in the late 80's early 90's when I had the greatest respect for the police,especially those who were on the beat in the area where they knew they could get a good cup of tea and biccies too.

On the beat in the late 80's and 90's?  ???
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: petey on June 05, 2018, 11:50:AM




Unless you didn't notice I indexed " certain members of police " meaning just them along with those incompetents known as the Essex police !
I would have said the mid 80's onward as EP had set a precedent to expect the worse in policing.

So are you saying that in the late 80s and early 90s you had the greatest respect for SOME members of police but not for other members of police from Essex and South Yorkshire?
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on June 05, 2018, 12:07:PM
So are you saying that in the late 80s and early 90s you had the greatest respect for SOME members of police but not for other members of police from Essex and South Yorkshire?





Particularly those who I knew personally on the Cheshire side where I live.To date I don't like the Liverpool police !
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on June 05, 2018, 12:12:PM
Neither am I impressed with some of the Cheshire police either.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Jane on June 05, 2018, 12:46:PM




" Certain members of police "-------------I don't generalise !! Do you ??


I'm afraid you're wrong there, Lookout. I guess that's what comes of only having the ability to see things in terms of black or white. Those "sweeping statements" that you're so fond of making are just  generalizations. Life doesn't fall into the one size fits all category.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Jane on June 05, 2018, 12:48:PM
Neither am I impressed with some of the Cheshire police either.


And as for Essex police.....................
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Caroline on June 05, 2018, 12:59:PM

And as for Essex police.....................

I think tarring the whole of Essex police with the same brush based on what you think about the Bamber case might just fall under the category of a 'generalisation'?
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Jane on June 05, 2018, 01:09:PM
I think tarring the whole of Essex police with the same brush based on what you think about the Bamber case might just fall under the category of a 'generalisation'?

Undoubtedly so.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: David1819 on June 05, 2018, 01:33:PM
The GP who first examined Sheila was also Grahame's ( Lugg ) GP who'd said the man's breath always reeked of ale during surgery.

Dr Craig was called to attend the scene under the impression he would be needed to help the police subdue Sheila. When he arrived he had nothing to do other than declare them dead. He spent around fifteen minutes inside the farm house.

Had the chain of communication got the fact of no survivors to him sooner, he would not have attended and the five dead would have been certified/declared dead by a doctor on arrival at the autopsy facility instead.

Dr Craig is of no real significance. His job was to help the police manage difficult people and difficult situations not investigate the aftermath.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on June 05, 2018, 02:49:PM
Dr Craig was called to attend the scene under the impression he would be needed to help the police subdue Sheila. When he arrived he had nothing to do other than declare them dead. He spent around fifteen minutes inside the farm house.

Had the chain of communication got the fact of no survivors to him sooner, he would not have attended and the five dead would have been certified/declared dead by a doctor on arrival at the autopsy facility instead.

Dr Craig is of no real significance. His job was to help the police manage difficult people and difficult situations not investigate the aftermath.






The least he could have done was to have taken her temperature and given an appx time of death.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Jane on June 05, 2018, 02:56:PM





The least he could have done was to have taken her temperature and given an appx time of death.

Why Sheila and not the others?
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on June 05, 2018, 02:57:PM
Why Sheila and not the others?






Why not ?
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Jane on June 05, 2018, 03:10:PM





Why not ?

Why are you singling out Sheila? Why was it any more important to know when she died over the others?
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on June 05, 2018, 03:14:PM
Why are you singling out Sheila? Why was it any more important to know when she died over the others?





Because Sheila is the subject here.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Jane on June 05, 2018, 03:19:PM




Because Sheila is the subject here.


But she was only one of five bodies there.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on June 05, 2018, 03:24:PM

But she was only one of five bodies there.






But I wasn't talking about 5 bodies,was I ?
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Caroline on June 05, 2018, 03:28:PM
Dr Craig was called to attend the scene under the impression he would be needed to help the police subdue Sheila. When he arrived he had nothing to do other than declare them dead. He spent around fifteen minutes inside the farm house.

Had the chain of communication got the fact of no survivors to him sooner, he would not have attended and the five dead would have been certified/declared dead by a doctor on arrival at the autopsy facility instead.

Dr Craig is of no real significance. His job was to help the police manage difficult people and difficult situations not investigate the aftermath.

Where did you get that from?
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Jane on June 05, 2018, 03:33:PM





But I wasn't talking about 5 bodies,was I ?

No, you weren't, but I'm just pointing out that he had no more justification for taking Sheila's temperature or giving an approximate time for her death, than any of the others.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on June 05, 2018, 04:24:PM
No, you weren't, but I'm just pointing out that he had no more justification for taking Sheila's temperature or giving an approximate time for her death, than any of the others.






Really ?
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Jane on June 05, 2018, 04:30:PM





Really ?

What happened, happened. However much you might not like it, it is as it is. He didn't take her temperature or give an approximate time of death.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: David1819 on June 05, 2018, 07:52:PM
Where did you get that from?


Its in Dr Craig's statement from late 1986 after the trial. He was expecting to help the police disarm/ mitigate the situation. The police never told him anyone/everyone had been shot dead until he had arrived.

Dr Craig was the a local GP. His position as police sergeon was to be on call and attend crime scenes and give medical help and save lives. He was never in any investigative role.



Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Caroline on June 05, 2018, 07:56:PM

Its in Dr Craig's statement from late 1986 after the trial. He was expecting to help the police disarm/ mitigate the situation. The police never told him anyone/everyone had been shot dead until he had arrived.

Dr Craig was the a local GP. His position as police sergeon was to be on call and attend crime scenes and give medical help and save lives. He was never in any investigative role.

Can you post a reference to it? Where did you read this? Do you have a copy to post?
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on June 05, 2018, 08:00:PM
Caroline you can find reference to Dr Craig's " breath " by looking at Grahame's ( Lugg's ) posts as I wasn't the one who said it in the first place as Holly is inferring. I'm pig sick of being blamed for everything I post.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on June 05, 2018, 08:01:PM
I couldn't give a tinkers cuss about this blooomin' case any more.It's more trouble than it's worth.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Adam on June 05, 2018, 08:03:PM
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1187.0.html

Here is a 2 page WS of Dr Craig.

I didn't know the police had also knocked broken crockery onto the kitchen floor.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Adam on June 05, 2018, 08:06:PM
Dr Craig also says Sheila had 'dried' blood.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: maggie on June 05, 2018, 08:14:PM
Caroline you can find reference to Dr Craig's " breath " by looking at Grahame's ( Lugg's ) posts as I wasn't the one who said it in the first place as Holly is inferring. I'm pig sick of being blamed for everything I post.
I agree lookout, Grahame was always saying that Dr Craig 'drank'. 
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Jane on June 05, 2018, 08:19:PM
I agree lookout, Grahame was always saying that Dr Craig 'drank'.

Wouldn't you also agree that on a scale of 1 to 10, there;s a hell of a difference between a DRINK and a DRUNK. A drink on the breath can be detected, especially if one is teetotal.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Caroline on June 05, 2018, 08:22:PM
Caroline you can find reference to Dr Craig's " breath " by looking at Grahame's ( Lugg's ) posts as I wasn't the one who said it in the first place as Holly is inferring. I'm pig sick of being blamed for everything I post.

I'm not asking about reference being made to him being an alcoholic, I'm asking about David's post in reference to Craig thinking he'd been called out to help defuse Sheila.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on June 05, 2018, 08:23:PM
I agree lookout, Grahame was always saying that Dr Craig 'drank'.






Thanks Maggie and I'm sure Grahame didn't tell lies.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on June 05, 2018, 08:25:PM
I'm not asking about reference being made to him being an alcoholic, I'm asking about David's post in reference to Craig thinking he'd been called out to help defuse Sheila.





I DIDN'T mention " alcoholic " ::) This is what's getting me hanged,other people's made up words.Dear me
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: maggie on June 05, 2018, 08:30:PM
Wouldn't you also agree that on a scale of 1 to 10, there;s a hell of a difference between a DRINK and a DRUNK. A drink on the breath can be detected, especially if one is teetotal.
Yes but Grahame was quite specific that in his opinion Dr Craig drank ie. He drank all the time . He may or may not have used the word alcoholic I can't remember but that is what was implied. 
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Caroline on June 05, 2018, 08:33:PM




I DIDN'T mention " alcoholic " ::) This is what's getting me hanged,other people's made up words.Dear me

I didn't say you did - when there is an insinuation that someone 'drinks' it's to infer they are alcoholics and as previous stated, I wasn't even referring to that. Don't draw me into your spat Lookout - I'm keeping well out of it on purpose but if you want to draw me in .....
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Caroline on June 05, 2018, 08:34:PM
Yes but Grahame was quite specific that in his opinion Dr Craig drank ie. He drank all the time . He may or may not have used the word alcoholic I can't remember but that is what was implied.

Thank you Maggie.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Caroline on June 05, 2018, 08:35:PM
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1187.0.html

Here is a 2 page WS of Dr Craig.

I didn't know the police had also knocked broken crockery onto the kitchen floor.

Thanks Adam, I have read that one but David mentioned a 1986 statement?
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Adam on June 05, 2018, 08:41:PM
The source David is going to supply will contradict Dr Craig's WS. As David said -

'Dr Craig was called to attend the scene under the impression he would be needed to help the police subdue Sheila.'

---------

I look forward to seeing David's source.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on June 05, 2018, 08:50:PM
Like I look forward to seeing these " despicable posts " I'm supposed to have written.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Caroline on June 06, 2018, 12:26:AM
I'm not asking about reference being made to him being an alcoholic, I'm asking about David's post in reference to Craig thinking he'd been called out to help defuse Sheila.

Why would the police call Craig 'specifically'?
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on June 06, 2018, 08:04:AM
Why would the police call Craig 'specifically'?






He was the police doctor.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Jane on June 06, 2018, 08:06:AM
Rereading Dr Craig's WS -one tends to forget the minutiae of what witnesses say- it appears that he dispels several myths which have grown up out of this case.

 He was informed that there had been a shooting incident some hours earlier. He noted that there appeared to have been a bullet entry at the back of Nevill's skull. He noted that a woman in a very bloodied nightgown had a bullet wound between her eyes. He further noted that "on the other side of the bedROOM" was a woman who had sustained a bullet wound to her neck.

We know, of course, that Nevill and June both sustained NUMEROUS gunshots, but it wasn't in Craig's remit to note them all individually, plus, the two he named would have been a likely cause of immediate death. The same can be applied to Sheila -about whom there is absolutely NO ambiguity- she was found on the "other side of the bedROOM", NOT, as has been previously suggested, on the other/far side of the bed. Quite reasonably he noted a wound which was likely to have been the cause of death. If one wishes to split hairs, he did "see" only one wound on Sheila, but he also did only "see" one wound on Nevill and June. If we transpose "see" into "noted", what actually transpired, in the few minutes he was in the house, certifying deaths, becomes much more clear.

As to the inferences -NO! accusations- regarding Dr Craig's ALLEGED sobriety. They appear to have no basis in fact other than someone, possibly teetotal and no longer a poster, claiming to have detected alcohol on his breath. It maybe worth mentioning that the poster had their own agenda regarding Dr Craig re the alleged treatment of their family by him.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: mike tesko on June 06, 2018, 08:18:AM
The source David is going to supply will contradict Dr Craig's WS. As David said -

'Dr Craig was called to attend the scene under the impression he would be needed to help the police subdue Sheila.'

---------

I look forward to seeing David's source.

Highly unlikely, since a message was sent from the scene for the police surgeon (which turned out to be Dr Craig) to be requested to attend the scene at whf where two bodies had been discovered upon entry to the premises by armed police (time of this request being at 7.42am)...

My point is this, How could Dr Craig be summoned to the scene to defuse the Sheila threat situation, if she was the second body being referred to in the timed police radio message log?

Surely, with June Bambers body propped up at the main bedroom doorway, hers would have been the second body, the female body referred to, and mentioned in at the 7.42am note, and by 7.45am why DS Davidson (SOCO) was contacted at his home address, by a female operative, named 'Linda' to request that he come on duty because police were presently dealing with an incident at whf concerning and involving two bodies, a murder, and a suicide...

Well, this becomes extremely interesting in the grand scheme of things, since had June Bambers body been the second body that was 'found', how on earth can anybody describe her death as being by way of suicide? The only way that any sense can be made out of all this madness, is that Sheila Caffell was the second body mentioned in the timed police radio message log contents (7.35am, 7.37am, 7.38am,
 7.42am, and 7.45am). The irony of the situation, places Sheila Caffells body as that which is mentioned in the various timed police radio message log accounts, Only her body could have been the body mentioned in all of the aforementioned timed log entries, she was the dead female body reportedly found upon entry by the firearm officers into the premises at around 7.30am! Only the death of Sheila Caffell could be described potentially by 7.45am, as being a suicide...

 
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: mike tesko on June 06, 2018, 08:26:AM
Highly unlikely, since a message was sent from the scene for the police surgeon (which turned out to be Dr Craig) to be requested to attend the scene at whf where two bodies had been discovered upon entry to the premises by armed police (time of this request being at 7.42am)...

My point is this, How could Dr Craig be summoned to the scene to defuse the Sheila threat situation, if she was the second body being referred to in the timed police radio message log?

Surely, with June Bambers body propped up at the main bedroom doorway, hers would have been the second body, the female body referred to, and mentioned in at the 7.42am note, and by 7.45am why DS Davidson (SOCO) was contacted at his home address, by a female operative, named 'Linda' to request that he come on duty because police were presently dealing with an incident at whf concerning and involving two bodies, a murder, and a suicide...

Well, this becomes extremely interesting in the grand scheme of things, since had June Bambers body been the second body that was 'found', how on earth can anybody describe her death as being by way of suicide? The only way that any sense can be made out of all this madness, is that Sheila Caffell was the second body mentioned in the timed police radio message log contents (7.35am, 7.37am, 7.38am,
 7.42am, and 7.45am). The irony of the situation, places Sheila Caffells body as that which is mentioned in the various timed police radio message log accounts, Only her body could have been the body mentioned in all of the aforementioned timed log entries, she was the dead female body reportedly found upon entry by the firearm officers into the premises at around 7.30am! Only the death of Sheila Caffell could be described potentially by 7.45am, as being a suicide...

Neville Bambers death - definitely not a suicide!
June Bambers death - definitely not a suicide!

Daniel Caffells death - definitely not a suicide!
Nicholas Caffells death - definitely not a suicide!

Sheila Caffell, was the only victim who's death could be described potentially as it having been by way of suicide by 7.45am, a fact mentioned by The female operator (Linda) at 7.45am)!!
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on June 06, 2018, 09:34:AM
It would have to have taken a seriously deranged and insane person to have carried out these murders in the way in which they were.
In the 33 years that JB has been imprisoned there has never ever been concern about his behaviour. Prison officers and psychiatrists are clever people whose job it is is to detect certain changes in prisoners and will know what to look out for. I imagine that over the years being a Cat A prisoner and the most dangerous area of the inmates JB would have been well surveyed along with others in their assessment and intervention centre within by psychologists and probation staff where monitoring by video is key.
JB's move from Long Lartin to the present Wakefield could well have been one of a security issue as the former has a history of riots and general unrest among prisoners. Then again a prisoner can be moved for no apparent reason unless being released then the prison will be nearer to where the home is.

I see no earthly reason why JB can't be released or even put down to a B Cat for starters,but to do nothing and to also ignore the man's existence is totally wrong.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Caroline on June 06, 2018, 11:10:AM





He was the police doctor.

Yes, I know that but David seems to think he was the family GP?
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Caroline on June 06, 2018, 11:16:AM
It would have to have taken a seriously deranged and insane person to have carried out these murders in the way in which they were.
In the 33 years that JB has been imprisoned there has never ever been concern about his behaviour. Prison officers and psychiatrists are clever people whose job it is is to detect certain changes in prisoners and will know what to look out for. I imagine that over the years being a Cat A prisoner and the most dangerous area of the inmates JB would have been well surveyed along with others in their assessment and intervention centre within by psychologists and probation staff where monitoring by video is key.
JB's move from Long Lartin to the present Wakefield could well have been one of a security issue as the former has a history of riots and general unrest among prisoners. Then again a prisoner can be moved for no apparent reason unless being released then the prison will be nearer to where the home is.

I see no earthly reason why JB can't be released or even put down to a B Cat for starters,but to do nothing and to also ignore the man's existence is totally wrong.

Jeremy moved from Full Sutton to Wakefield.

Killing five people and taking no responsibility is why they won't consider freeing him.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Jane on June 06, 2018, 12:44:PM
Jeremy moved from Full Sutton to Wakefield.

Killing five people and taking no responsibility is why they won't consider freeing him.


Using supporters claims that just because something isn't known doesn't mean it hasn't happened, we can't simply assume there has never been any concern about his behaviour. The prison authorities don't issue regular behavioral reports for any other murderer -and why should they?- so there's no reason for Jeremy to be singled out. I don't imagine the treatment he receives is any more 'special' than that of other convicted murderers. Unless it's a serious enough incident -ie Peter Sutcliffe getting his eye poked out with a biro?- to warrant a bit of newspaper space, I inclined to think it's a case of what happens in house stays in house. The last think the authorities seek is celebrity for their residents. It remains to be seen, as 'Life' clearly does not necessarily mean LIFE, whether  it may be considered that all convicted murderers will have been deemed to have served a long enough sentence after 25 years.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on June 06, 2018, 01:07:PM
Jeremy moved from Full Sutton to Wakefield.

Killing five people and taking no responsibility is why they won't consider freeing him.





A person can't take responsibility for something they didn't do,would you ?
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Jane on June 06, 2018, 01:15:PM




A person can't take responsibility for something they didn't do,would you ?

Unless it can be proved that he didn't, it remains that he did. Even allowing for the conclusion being reached that he may not have, there remains the fact that he could have..................which was held to be good enough to convict him in the first place.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on June 06, 2018, 01:15:PM
It's only just being admitted by police,judges etc that things have gone wrong with the legal system and that many are being held in prisons with wrongful convictions.
It's taken all these years for them to realise that this is and has been going on.
You have to ask yourself what they've all been doing over the years.

I got this info at the tail-end of the news this morning and I'm not sure if there's a programme to follow it.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Jane on June 06, 2018, 01:36:PM
It's only just being admitted by police,judges etc that things have gone wrong with the legal system and that many are being held in prisons with wrongful convictions.
It's taken all these years for them to realise that this is and has been going on.
You have to ask yourself what they've all been doing over the years.

I got this info at the tail-end of the news this morning and I'm not sure if there's a programme to follow it.


No one is denying this. There has recently been the revelations about the Jeremy Thorpe case. It's all a very convenient hook for Jeremy supporters to latch onto. Couldn't have come at a more convenient time. They did it to others, ergo it's proof they did it to Jeremy? No, it isn't.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on June 06, 2018, 02:11:PM

No one is denying this. There has recently been the revelations about the Jeremy Thorpe case. It's all a very convenient hook for Jeremy supporters to latch onto. Couldn't have come at a more convenient time. They did it to others, ergo it's proof they did it to Jeremy? No, it isn't.





At least it's being highlighted--------courtesy of the gullible who see no wrong in how the law works or doesn't as the case may be.
There are others besides JB who hopefully will get to see fair play sooner rather than later though JB has the backing of a legal team why haven't others ?
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on June 06, 2018, 02:15:PM
Would you say that JB's legal team are wasting their time ?

Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: David1819 on June 06, 2018, 02:34:PM
Yes, I know that but David seems to think he was the family GP?


Where did I say that?  ???
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: David1819 on June 06, 2018, 02:41:PM
The source David is going to supply will contradict Dr Craig's WS. As David said -

'Dr Craig was called to attend the scene under the impression he would be needed to help the police subdue Sheila.'

---------

I look forward to seeing David's source.

Here

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,3125.msg119799.html#msg119799 (http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,3125.msg119799.html#msg119799)
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Jane on June 06, 2018, 03:02:PM




At least it's being highlighted--------courtesy of the gullible who see no wrong in how the law works or doesn't as the case may be.
There are others besides JB who hopefully will get to see fair play sooner rather than later though JB has the backing of a legal team why haven't others ?

There are several issues here. That it's been highlighted is probably the most important. It's no more a question of "the gullible who see no wrong in how the law works or doesn't............." than the anti establishments who'll jump on anything they can make noise about. By this, I mean neither the uncaring nor the militant can unhappen what has gone before and there's EVERY chance they won't fully eradicate it in the future. Probably the best that can be hoped for is that it can be stemmed.

We differ in how we believe legal teams work. I'll go no further than saying I think most do the best they can for their client, but I don't believe it's necessary for them to believe in the client's guilt or innocence. You may see what they do as being altruistic. I see it as an exercise. Cases such as Jeremy's, whilst possibly being headed by a legal "name" are a way of giving interns something to grind their legal teeth on. It certainly won't be their only case -it's likely to be a fill in between others- especially if it's pro bono. It MAY be that A team is made up of members from different firms. There is always a chance that the team, whoever they're representing, will win. Another reason why they need to remain ambivalent regarding their client's innocence or guilt. In Jeremy's case, there's NOTHING concrete to suggest his innocence. Training is always good so maybe it will be used as the sort of training exercise we're told took place -using corpse's as props- at WHF.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Adam on June 06, 2018, 03:26:PM
Here

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,3125.msg119799.html#msg119799 (http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,3125.msg119799.html#msg119799)

Dr Craig was wrong in his assessment of the phone call.

The raid team had already broken into WHF and discovered everyone dead by 8.10am. Dr Craig just had to certify the deaths.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Jane on June 06, 2018, 03:44:PM
Dr Craig was wrong in his assessment of the phone call.

The raid team had already broken into WHF and discovered everyone dead by 8.10am. Dr Craig just had to certify the deaths.

To clarify. Dr Craig, expecting to be going out to premises at which there was a siege situation, he's greeted by police who tell him everyone is dead in what they believe to be a murder/suicide scenario. It transpires that the information given him regarding the family and Sheila originated from Jeremy.  His only requirement is to certify death, which he does, noting obvious bullet wounds on three bodies. No physical examination of the bodies was required to determine death. He was in the house between 15 and 20 minutes. There appears to have been no reason -given information received and what he'd seen- for him to question murder/suicide.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Caroline on June 06, 2018, 03:46:PM




A person can't take responsibility for something they didn't do,would you ?

But I (and others) and the state believe he did, so they won't release him unless he can prove he didn't.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on June 06, 2018, 03:50:PM
But I (and others) and the state believe he did, so they won't release him unless he can prove he didn't.





He'd have been released years ago if that were the point,i.e. confession-release. Isn't that how it works ?
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Caroline on June 06, 2018, 03:51:PM
Here

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,3125.msg119799.html#msg119799 (http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,3125.msg119799.html#msg119799)

So that is what he 'thought'. Clearly they didn't tell him the full situation until he arrived at the scene. He was there to pronounce death and that's what he did.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Caroline on June 06, 2018, 03:52:PM




He'd have been released years ago if that were the point,i.e. confession-release. Isn't that how it works ?

Not necessarily given that he received a whole life tariff. 
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Adam on June 06, 2018, 03:56:PM
David was trying to create the impression the police knew there was a seige situation at WHF. This attempt was rumbled due to the time Dr Craig received the phone call.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on June 06, 2018, 03:58:PM
So that is what he 'thought'. Clearly they didn't tell him the full situation until he arrived at the scene. He was there to pronounce death and that's what he did.





He'd gathered it was a murder/suicide by what Harris had told him from his notes. I wonder what Harris wrote to indicate murder/suicide.? I can't seem to find his notes/statement.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Jane on June 06, 2018, 04:04:PM




He'd gathered it was a murder/suicide by what Harris had told him from his notes. I wonder what Harris wrote to indicate murder/suicide.? I can't seem to find his notes/statement.


I've suggested that the views and subsequent actions of police were informed by what Jeremy had spent ages telling therm. I've been told that this couldn't have been the case. That police would have formed the opinions they'd been trained  in. However, no one seems to have turned a hair over Dr Craig accepting what police told him. It no longer seems important that the information they gave him came from Jeremy.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on June 06, 2018, 04:06:PM

I've suggested that the views and subsequent actions of police were informed by what Jeremy had spent ages telling therm. I've been told that this couldn't have been the case. That police would have formed the opinions they'd been trained  in. However, no one seems to have turned a hair over Dr Craig accepting what police told him. It no longer seems important that the information they gave him came from Jeremy.





So you're saying police are gullible too ?
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Jane on June 06, 2018, 04:13:PM




So you're saying police are gullible too ?

We can all be gullible if we're being shafted by someone we think we have no reason to distrust.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on June 06, 2018, 04:23:PM
We can all be gullible if we're being shafted by someone we think we have no reason to distrust.






Some more than others--------yet when JB mentioned foster-care nobody believed him ( which was the truth ) and it was from then on that everyone had made up their minds that everything he said was lies.

There's none so deaf as those who don't want to hear !!
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Jane on June 06, 2018, 04:36:PM





Some more than others--------yet when JB mentioned foster-care nobody believed him ( which was the truth ) and it was from then on that everyone had made up their minds that everything he said was lies.

There's none so deaf as those who don't want to hear !!

Did he not once say it was important to tell as much of the truth as possible? In this, he probably did, albeit there's no way of proving it. It IS possible, given how we're told Sheila was, that fostering -something she was more than used to- was spoken of. What's VERY unlikely is that she was threatened with losing her children/having them taken into care or whatever other sort of fait acomplis Jeremy is hinting took place. The children were in COLIN'S care. The Bambers had no rights over them. However, the police weren't to know that when Jeremy told them.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: mike tesko on June 06, 2018, 05:03:PM
The Cops shot Sheila Caffell dead, and tried to get away with promoting the idea that she had only been shot once in the neck! Cops told Ann Eaton and everyone who was present at Jeremy's cottage on the first morning of the tragedy, that Sheila was laid on top of the bed, shot once in the neck, a Bible on her chest, and the rifle which had been used to kill her was resting on the bed in-between the bodies of Sheila and June Bamber! When Julie Mugford' went along to Chelmsford Hospital Mortuary to formally identify Sheila's body, upon returning back to Jeremy's cottage she recounted that Sheila only had a single shot to her neck (so, obviously, by that stage, the presence of the second bullet wound to her neck had cleverly been disguised). At the opening of the inquest, the Coroner was told that Sheila had shot and killed the other four victims, before turning the gun upon herself and committing suicide by way of one shot to the neck!

The simple truth of the matter, is that once the suspicious relatives forced Essex Police to start a fresh Investigation with Jeremy Bamber as the chief suspect, it became necessary to deal with the fact that Sheila had in fact been shot twice, and this led to the creation of a Ballistical problem, because she had been shot by bullets which had been fired from two different guns! Hence, why one of the two bullets recovered from her body (PV/20) became transformed, from originally being described as a piece of badly fragmented bullet, which became transformed into a whole bullet, so that both of these bullets could be said to have been fired from the same gun! This is turn enabled the cops to try to conceal for the fact that Sheila was shot downstairs in the kitchen by the second gun and announced as being dead downstairs in the kitchen as per the timed police messages, 7.35am, 7.37am, 7.38am, 7.42am, and 7.45am!

Also linked is the fact that cops photographed the second rifle in a scenes of crime photograph that was taken whilst the second gun was still on display downstairs in the kitchen area..

Hence, why there exists a massive discrepancy concerning the body count downstairs and upstairs at different stages of the morning, for example between 7.35am and 8.10am, two bodies reportedly present downstairs in the kitchen, with the other three victims bodies upstairs in the bedrooms after 8.10am..

The witness statement version of the events being the vehicle by which the body count altered at some point after 8.10am, when Sheila Caffell's body found its way upstairs into her parents bedroom, at a time when she only sported one bullet wound which had been fired across her neck, a shot which had been fired by the rifle captured in at least one of the photographs that was taken downstairs in the kitchen - two versions therefore, exist giving contradictory information concerning the body count both upstairs and downstairs, 2 downstairs / 3 upstairs as per the timed police message log, versus 1 downstairs / 4 upstairs in the witness statement version of the events!
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: mike tesko on June 06, 2018, 05:12:PM
The Cops shot Sheila Caffell dead, and tried to get away with promoting the idea that she had only been shot once in the neck! Cops told Ann Eaton and everyone who was present at Jeremy's cottage on the first morning of the tragedy, that Sheila was laid on top of the bed, shot once in the neck, a Bible on her chest, and the rifle which had been used to kill her was resting on the bed in-between the bodies of Sheila and June Bamber! When Julie Mugford' went along to Chelmsford Hospital Mortuary to formally identify Sheila's body, upon returning back to Jeremy's cottage she recounted that Sheila only had a single shot to her neck (so, obviously, by that stage, the presence of the second bullet wound to her neck had cleverly been disguised). At the opening of the inquest, the Coroner was told that Sheila had shot and killed the other four victims, before turning the gun upon herself and committing suicide by way of one shot to the neck!

The simple truth of the matter, is that once the suspicious relatives forced Essex Police to start a fresh Investigation with Jeremy Bamber as the chief suspect, it became necessary to deal with the fact that Sheila had in fact been shot twice, and this led to the creation of a Ballistical problem, because she had been shot by bullets which had been fired from two different guns! Hence, why one of the two bullets recovered from her body (PV/20) became transformed, from originally being described as a piece of badly fragmented bullet, which became transformed into a whole bullet, so that both of these bullets could be said to have been fired from the same gun! This is turn enabled the cops to try to conceal for the fact that Sheila was shot downstairs in the kitchen by the second gun and announced as being dead downstairs in the kitchen as per the timed police messages, 7.35am, 7.37am, 7.38am, 7.42am, and 7.45am!

Also linked is the fact that cops photographed the second rifle in a scenes of crime photograph that was taken whilst the second gun was still on display downstairs in the kitchen area..

Hence, why there exists a massive discrepancy concerning the body count downstairs and upstairs at different stages of the morning, for example between 7.35am and 8.10am, two bodies reportedly present downstairs in the kitchen, with the other three victims bodies upstairs in the bedrooms after 8.10am..

The witness statement version of the events being the vehicle by which the body count altered at some point after 8.10am, when Sheila Caffell's body found its way upstairs into her parents bedroom, at a time when she only sported one bullet wound which had been fired across her neck, a shot which had been fired by the rifle captured in at least one of the photographs that was taken downstairs in the kitchen - two versions therefore, exist giving contradictory information concerning the body count both upstairs and downstairs, 2 downstairs / 3 upstairs as per the timed police message log, versus 1 downstairs / 4 upstairs in the witness statement version of the events!

Bearing in mind that by 7.45am, police were talking in terms of only having found or located two bodies, the body of one dead male, and the body of one dead female, a murder, and a suicide - a scenario which only fits into the police radio message log version of the events involving SHEILA Caffell's demise! Hers can't possibly have been the second body mentioned in the witness statement version of the alleged events, except that once Sheila's body found its way from the kitchen downstairs, to the bedroom upstairs, only then resulted in four bodies being upstairs, and leaving one body downstairs!
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: mike tesko on June 06, 2018, 05:17:PM
The police witness statement versions of the events are fabricated, since with Sheila's body being the only victim who's death could be regarded as a suicide being the second of the two bodies which were reported as found by 7.45am, she could not have been found secondly by reference to the contents of police witness statements, her body would have been found third in sequence!
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: maggie on June 06, 2018, 05:24:PM
Did he not once say it was important to tell as much of the truth as possible? In this, he probably did, albeit there's no way of proving it. It IS possible, given how we're told Sheila was, that fostering -something she was more than used to- was spoken of. What's VERY unlikely is that she was threatened with losing her children/having them taken into care or whatever other sort of fait acomplis Jeremy is hinting took place. The children were in COLIN'S care. The Bambers had no rights over them. However, the police weren't to know that when Jeremy told them.
The problem is there is hearsay on both sides and no one knows if Jeremy said 'it is important to tell tell as much of the truth as possible' and even if he did say that it depends what context it was said in as to what he meant.  There are a few different interpretations of that sentence therefore although often quoted it proves nothing really.  Think if we question hearsay on one side of the arguemental as being unproven  we shold do so on the other too.  They seemed to use the word 'fostering' as meaning child care which causes confusion.  They apart entry did discuss day lily child care with someone in the village if I remember rightly.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Jane on June 06, 2018, 05:31:PM
The problem is there is hearsay on both sides and no one knows if Jeremy said 'it is important to tell tell as much of the truth as possible' and even if he did say that it depends what context it was said in as to what he meant.  There are a few different interpretations of that sentence therefore although often quoted it proves nothing really.


Alright, let's suppose he never said it. However, he was in the position to tell police anything he wanted them to believe regarding the circumstances of the last hours he was at the farm. The police were in no position to question anything her said. What I've said MAY have happened is valid.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on June 06, 2018, 06:45:PM
I imagine that JB had felt that he was betraying trusts being as his parents hadn't divulged much outside WHF by telling what was told or what he knew,even. They were a private family as we all know and certain things weren't openly discussed.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Caroline on June 06, 2018, 06:57:PM
I imagine that JB had felt that he was betraying trusts being as his parents hadn't divulged much outside WHF by telling what was told or what he knew,even. They were a private family as we all know and certain things weren't openly discussed.

So saying Sheila was 'a nutter' is his way of keeping a confidence?
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Jane on June 06, 2018, 07:05:PM
I imagine that JB had felt that he was betraying trusts being as his parents hadn't divulged much outside WHF by telling what was told or what he knew,even. They were a private family as we all know and certain things weren't openly discussed.

Betraying trusts!!! Jeez! he couldn't have told the police much more about the family and Sheila's medical history if he'd tried. It doesn't sound as if they had to tease anything out of him.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on June 06, 2018, 07:29:PM
So saying Sheila was 'a nutter' is his way of keeping a confidence?





He was talking their language.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on June 06, 2018, 07:30:PM
Betraying trusts!!! Jeez! he couldn't have told the police much more about the family and Sheila's medical history if he'd tried. It doesn't sound as if they had to tease anything out of him.





How do you know ?
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Caroline on June 06, 2018, 07:32:PM




He was talking their language.

Their language? It was his language - his words and if he's uttering them, he's not keeping any confidence.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on June 06, 2018, 07:46:PM
Their language? It was his language - his words and if he's uttering them, he's not keeping any confidence.





Language that they'd understand rather than using medical terms.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Jane on June 06, 2018, 07:55:PM




Language that they'd understand rather than using medical terms.

Oh right. This is Jeremy's sensitive and caring side coming out, is it? Consideration for others' sensitivities............whilst slagging his sister off?
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on June 06, 2018, 08:29:PM
Oh right. This is Jeremy's sensitive and caring side coming out, is it? Consideration for others' sensitivities............whilst slagging his sister off?





He wasn't slagging his sister off at all. It's you being neurotic.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on June 06, 2018, 08:31:PM
The " black flowers " saga was worse. It was really sick ! What sort of a person suggests that ?
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on June 06, 2018, 08:36:PM
What a good job JB didn't think that one up. It would have been another nail in his coffin alright.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: maggie on June 06, 2018, 08:39:PM
So saying Sheila was 'a nutter' is his way of keeping a confidence?
To be fair that was a phrase in constant use back 8n the 80s. Would like to bet he probably didn't know what was really wrong with her or his mother. Think he's quoted in a statement from the scene saying Sheila was a psychopath, unless he was misquoted.  He probably did tell himself she was a 'nutter'.  Not great but doesn't make him a murderer,  makes him a 24 year old self obsessed man, which is about normal. (No offence guys were all self obsessed at 24 if we're normal)
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Jane on June 06, 2018, 08:55:PM
The " black flowers " saga was worse. It was really sick ! What sort of a person suggests that ?


Did Ann admit to saying it? I guess you'd feel pretty angry at a person you wanted to send black flowers to, but I suppose anger isn't inappropriate within a mix of emotions if you think someone's killed your family?
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Jane on June 06, 2018, 09:01:PM
To be fair that was a phrase in constant use back 8n the 80s. Would like to bet he probably didn't know what was really wrong with her or his mother. Think he's quoted in a statement from the scene saying Sheila was a psychopath, unless he was misquoted.  He probably did tell himself she was a 'nutter'.  Not great but doesn't make him a murderer,  makes him a 24 year old self obsessed man, which is about normal. (No offence guys were all self obsessed at 24 if we're normal)

He did rather lay it on with a trowel though, didn't he? One could almost say he was desperate to show her in a bad a light as possible? To convince them of her guilt, perhaps? Didn't he say she'd attempted suicide before? Didn't he say she was fully conversant with firearms? Didn't he say she was about to go back into a psych hospital? I believe he said "loony bin"?
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on June 06, 2018, 09:09:PM

Did Ann admit to saying it? I guess you'd feel pretty angry at a person you wanted to send black flowers to, but I suppose anger isn't inappropriate within a mix of emotions if you think someone's killed your family?





AE had actually handwritten it along with the guest list for the funeral arrangements. It's on the forum somewhere and also mentioned in one or two of the books which were written about the murders.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on June 06, 2018, 09:13:PM
Black flowers wouldn't be an option for those whose minds were balanced and normal.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Jane on June 06, 2018, 09:21:PM
Black flowers wouldn't be an option for those whose minds were balanced and normal.


But Jeremy's behaviours were all perfectly acceptable because he was grieving? SUCH hypocrisy!!!
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: maggie on June 06, 2018, 09:27:PM
He did rather lay it on with a trowel though, didn't he? One could almost say he was desperate to show her in a bad a light as possible? To convince them of her guilt, perhaps? Didn't he say she'd attempted suicide before? Didn't he say she was fully conversant with firearms? Didn't he say she was about to go back into a psych hospital? I believe he said "loony bin"?
He very well may have said loony bin, it is what people said and possibly was a phrase used in the Bamber household.  As for what he said, apparently he said all kinds of things but we cannot be sure what he said that night was remembered word for word by the police when writing their statements hours later when they had been traumatised themselves and up all night.  Immediately I will be accused b6 some of making excuses for him but I'm actually trying to be fair
 He may have said some of it or all of it,  repeated information often gets distorted.  Anyone who has worked nights knows how it feels by 8 am the next morning. Wouldn't just be JB who had low blood sugar.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on June 06, 2018, 09:34:PM

But Jeremy's behaviours were all perfectly acceptable because he was grieving? SUCH hypocrisy!!!





What behaviours would they be ?
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Caroline on June 06, 2018, 09:34:PM
To be fair that was a phrase in constant use back 8n the 80s. Would like to bet he probably didn't know what was really wrong with her or his mother. Think he's quoted in a statement from the scene saying Sheila was a psychopath, unless he was misquoted.  He probably did tell himself she was a 'nutter'.  Not great but doesn't make him a murderer,  makes him a 24 year old self obsessed man, which is about normal. (No offence guys were all self obsessed at 24 if we're normal)

No of course it doesn't make him a murderer, that wasn't the point I was making. Lookout's claim that he was worried about betraying trusts is clearly incorrect given that he offered up a ready diagnosis of her being a nutter and a psychopath. Trusts wasn't the first thing on his mind, regardless of whether he was talking 'their language' or using his own.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Jane on June 06, 2018, 09:36:PM
He very well may have said loony bin, it is what people said and possibly was a phrase used in the Bamber household.  As for what he said, apparently he said all kinds of things but we cannot be sure what he said that night was remembered word for word by the police when writing their statements hours later when they had been traumatised themselves and up all night.  Immediately I will be accused b6 some of making excuses for him but I'm actually trying to be fair
 He may have said some of it or all of it,  repeated information often gets distorted.  Anyone who has worked nights knows how it feels by 8 am the next morning. Wouldn't just be JB who had low blood sugar.

Well, if all -or any- of what you say is true, Maggie, we CANNOT, in all justification, apply it ONLY to this case. We MUST apply it elsewhere. Our prisons are likely to be much less full if we're generous with benefit of doubt, but I'll guarantee many more guilty people will be free to commit more crimes. It's probably the sort of stance defense lawyers take but all it does is cast doubt. It doesn't make the guilty innocent.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Caroline on June 06, 2018, 09:37:PM




Language that they'd understand rather than using medical terms.

These people weren't neanderthals - they would have heard the term 'schizophrenic' before. It would seem to be Bamber who didn't know the medical term for Sheila's condition because he probably wasn't interested past using her as a scapegoat.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Caroline on June 06, 2018, 09:39:PM
Black flowers wouldn't be an option for those whose minds were balanced and normal.

Neither would killing 5 members of your family but hey ho!
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Caroline on June 06, 2018, 09:42:PM
He very well may have said loony bin, it is what people said and possibly was a phrase used in the Bamber household.  As for what he said, apparently he said all kinds of things but we cannot be sure what he said that night was remembered word for word by the police when writing their statements hours later when they had been traumatised themselves and up all night.  Immediately I will be accused b6 some of making excuses for him but I'm actually trying to be fair
 He may have said some of it or all of it,  repeated information often gets distorted.  Anyone who has worked nights knows how it feels by 8 am the next morning. Wouldn't just be JB who had low blood sugar.

What is written is all we have to go on. It is documented and hasn't been challenged by Jeremy. All he has said in the years since was that 'I didn't understand my sisters illness back then'. He understood it enough to call her 'crazy'.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Jane on June 06, 2018, 09:43:PM




What behaviours would they be ?

All those you claim he was entitled to display because you claim he was grieving. We've never heard anything about anger though, have we. That's very surprising, don't you think? Sheila who had everything handed to her on a plate has allegedly slaughtered his entire family? One might have thought he'd have felt a little cross?
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on June 06, 2018, 09:44:PM
No of course it doesn't make him a murderer, that wasn't the point I was making. Lookout's claim that he was worried about betraying trusts is clearly incorrect given that he offered up a ready diagnosis of her being a nutter and a psychopath. Trusts wasn't the first thing on his mind, regardless of whether he was talking 'their language' or using his own.






He was 24 and a " playboy " not someone trained in science of the brain so his diagnosis was bound to be hit and miss. No doubt he was trying to be as helpful as he could in his own language but only when he was in prison was he able to thoroughly read up about mental illnesses so that he could then understand what Sheila was going through.

How many times have we read about him saying that he'd wished he'd known how ill Sheila had been ?
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: maggie on June 06, 2018, 09:54:PM
Well, if all -or any- of what you say is true, Maggie, we CANNOT, in all justification, apply it ONLY to this case. We MUST apply it elsewhere. Our prisons are likely to be much less full if we're generous with benefit of doubt, but I'll guarantee many more guilty people will be free to commit more crimes. It's probably the sort of stance defense lawyers take but all it does is cast doubt. It doesn't make the guilty innocent.
I was just addressing your particular post Jane. I have said many times I do not know if he is innocent or guilty but I do believe second hand talk written as statemends hours after the event by people who had been up all night is hardly water tight evidence.
The state of our prisons is a different argument.  Many prison inmates have mental health illness, many were abused as children,  they are full to the brim and it's  a failure of our society. Prisons in Scandinavia are half empty and the citizens seem to live a happy life but that's another story.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Jane on June 06, 2018, 10:09:PM
I was just addressing your particular post Jane. I have said many times I do not know if he is innocent or guilty but I do believe second hand talk written as statemends hours after the event by people who had been up all night is hardly water tight evidence.
The state of our prisons is a different argument.  Many prison inmates have mental health illness, many were abused as children,  they are full to the brim and it's  a failure of our society. Prisons in Scandinavia are half empty and the citizens seem to live a happy life but that's another story.

Maggie, from how you write, i feel you're much closer to innocent than guilty. I doubt that any suspect has much more than "second hand talk written as statements..................." As for police having been up all night, those police of my knowledge did three 8 hour shifts, so there'd have been a mix there of those on 10 til 6 overlapping with those on 6 til 2.

The state of out prisons is perhaps a reflection of the state of our society and that's a whole other story.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on June 06, 2018, 10:16:PM
As for convictions,for the first time the CPS have had to apologise due to the failures of the police and prosecutors to hand over evidence that could have proved a defendant's innocence.

Granted this apology was for the 47 rape cases which had to be dropped since January this year but the none disclosure or late disclosure of vital evidence was at the root of the problem which it was also said is so widespread that it was inevitable that innocent people would have been wrongly convicted of extremely serious offences.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Jane on June 06, 2018, 10:18:PM
As for convictions,for the first time the CPS have had to apologise due to the failures of the police and prosecutors to hand over evidence that could have proved a defendant's innocence.

Granted this apology was for the 47 rape cases which had to be dropped since January this year but the none disclosure or late disclosure of vital evidence was at the root of the problem which it was also said is so widespread that it was inevitable that innocent people would have been wrongly convicted of extremely serious offences.

I agree entirely....................but it doesn't make ANY guilty person innocent.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on June 06, 2018, 10:19:PM
As if we didn't already know that failure to disclose evidence to the defense is what's keeping JB where he is. And still they won't cough up ! Maybe after Alison Saunders goes ?
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Jane on June 06, 2018, 10:26:PM
As if we didn't already know that failure to disclose evidence to the defense is what's keeping JB where he is. And still they won't cough up ! Maybe after Alison Saunders goes ?

You recite it like a mantra but you've got no idea what's in them -IF they exist- and IF they do and they're produced and they contain nothing of any consequence, we'll hear the same mantra repeated as a fall back.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: maggie on June 06, 2018, 10:40:PM
Maggie, from how you write, i feel you're much closer to innocent than guilty. I doubt that any suspect has much more than "second hand talk written as statements..................." As for police having been up all night, those police of my knowledge did three 8 hour shifts, so there'd have been a mix there of those on 10 til 6 overlapping with those on 6 til 2.

The state of out prisons is perhaps a reflection of the state of our society and that's a whole other story.
I suspect he could be innocent yes, I certainly believe Sheila was involved but I'm well aware JB could be as well. I have always struggled with the idea of him climbing through the window in the dark after biking across dark fields,  banging the window shut etc. although it is a possibility which is one reason he was convicted. It seems this was thought up to solve the problem of how he eas able to enter the house with the door locked and bolted rather than any proof he did.  They didn't have to prove he did just that he could.  I know it's acceptable in law but not particularly convincing.    We know that in the past statements have been inaccurate or even rewritten to fit in with belief of guilt or innocence. Ito not a great way to convict someone and take their life away.  I assume you mean some police would have been on duty 6pm til 2 am then gone home and slept before they reported to work and recalled accurately what had been said many hours before or those who had been up all night possibly gone home and slept before they all met up to make their statements.  It's the same for any case not just for this one but it seems a pretty inadequate way to record information which is so important to the defendant whoever he/she is. 
I
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Caroline on June 06, 2018, 11:38:PM
I suspect he could be innocent yes, I certainly believe Sheila was involved but I'm well aware JB could be as well. I have always struggled with the idea of him climbing through the window in the dark after biking across dark fields,  banging the window shut etc. although it is a possibility which is one reason he was convicted. It seems this was thought up to solve the problem of how he eas able to enter the house with the door locked and bolted rather than any proof he did.  They didn't have to prove he did just that he could.  I know it's acceptable in law but not particularly convincing.    We know that in the past statements have been inaccurate or even rewritten to fit in with belief of guilt or innocence. Ito not a great way to convict someone and take their life away.  I assume you mean some police would have been on duty 6pm til 2 am then gone home and slept before they reported to work and recalled accurately what had been said many hours before or those who had been up all night possibly gone home and slept before they all met up to make their statements.  It's the same for any case not just for this one but it seems a pretty inadequate way to record information which is so important to the defendant whoever he/she is. 
I

He didn't have to bike there or crawl through a window, that's simplu one scenario and it certainly isn't what I believe. We don't know the door was locked and bolted when he entered, just when he left. I also think he left by the bathroom window because all you need to close and lock that from the outside is a piece of string and we know he had used this window before.

The point about statements being rewritten has to be looked at with the question of 'why'? They had the case wrapped up and made themselves look foolish when they changed tack to Jeremy. They had no reason to frame an innocent man and if they were going to do that, then why didn't make sure the Dickinson Report pointed to murder suicide, after all, it was commissioned by the people thought to be responsible for the frame up?
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Jane on June 07, 2018, 07:29:AM
I suspect he could be innocent yes, I certainly believe Sheila was involved but I'm well aware JB could be as well. I have always struggled with the idea of him climbing through the window in the dark after biking across dark fields,  banging the window shut etc. although it is a possibility which is one reason he was convicted. It seems this was thought up to solve the problem of how he eas able to enter the house with the door locked and bolted rather than any proof he did.  They didn't have to prove he did just that he could.  I know it's acceptable in law but not particularly convincing.    We know that in the past statements have been inaccurate or even rewritten to fit in with belief of guilt or innocence. Ito not a great way to convict someone and take their life away.  I assume you mean some police would have been on duty 6pm til 2 am then gone home and slept before they reported to work and recalled accurately what had been said many hours before or those who had been up all night possibly gone home and slept before they all met up to make their statements.  It's the same for any case not just for this one but it seems a pretty inadequate way to record information which is so important to the defendant whoever he/she is. 
I

Well, I wouldn't stir myself from my comfortable home at dead of night and do a bike ride across uneven tracks to crawl through someone else's window -my psychology isn't right. My greed isn't strong enough- but the lure of several millions pounds in today's money would, I suspect make such more attractive. It wasn't exactly unknown terrain for him so less difficult than you might imagine, perhaps. The door MAY not have been locked when he went in. It's not impossible that Nevill was till up and let him in. All that's required then, having locked the door from the inside, is for him to exit a window.

The shifts run 6am til 2pm, 2pm til 10pm, 10pm til 6am, so those involved would probably have been a mix/overlap of two shifts. The firearms team would all have been members of other units. I'm almost certain that personnel don't go home and sleep on it before writing reports!

The point you raise re statements and their accuracy, or lack of -in this case, there was little to report as nothing happened for several hours. They were just hanging around outside waiting for something to happen, nothing of which changed when Jeremy was eventually suspected. If we're to go down the 'not fit for purpose route' there wouldn't be any convictions. If we relied on the word of the convicted insisting the police had got it wrong and took their word for it our prisons would be relatively empty. Such MAY work in Sweden but I'd suggest that the Swedish mind set is very different from ours.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: maggie on June 07, 2018, 08:07:AM
Well, I wouldn't stir myself from my comfortable home at dead of night and do a bike ride across uneven tracks to crawl through someone else's window -my psychology isn't right. My greed isn't strong enough- but the lure of several millions pounds in today's money would, I suspect make such more attractive. It wasn't exactly unknown terrain for him so less difficult than you might imagine, perhaps. The door MAY not have been locked when he went in. It's not impossible that Nevill was till up and let him in. All that's required then, having locked the door from the inside, is for him to exit a window.

The shifts run 6am til 2pm, 2pm til 10pm, 10pm til 6am, so those involved would probably have been a mix/overlap of two shifts. The firearms team would all have been members of other units. I'm almost certain that personnel don't go home and sleep on it before writing reports!

The point you raise re statements and their accuracy, or lack of -in this case, there was little to report as nothing happened for several hours. They were just hanging around outside waiting for something to happen, nothing of which changed when Jeremy was eventually suspected. If we're to go down the 'not fit for purpose route' there wouldn't be any convictions. If we relied on the word of the convicted insisting the police had got it wrong and took their word for it our prisons would be relatively empty. Such MAY work in Sweden but I'd suggest that the Swedish mind set is very different from ours.
My main point was that the statements made that night about what JB did or didn't say were written from memory of much earlier conversations . We all know what happens when people repeat earlier conversations, intentionally or not they can add their own interpretations, attitudes, misunderstandings and jargon so using such reported words is far from dependable to make a point, no matter who said it or repeated it.
As for crawling through windows etc.  it is true he COULD have and that stands in a court of law I know that but this is the problem  with circumstantial evidence it's flakey and can always be questioned.  There is so little factual evidence, Julie Mugford is questionable as is the silencer evidence. The main reason people are definite he's guilty range from 'he's a psychopath'..... is he? How do you know?  or 'he is greedy and arrogant' or they 'know' just as Lookout and others 'know' he's innocent. It leaves me after years on this forum not knowing.  :-\
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on June 07, 2018, 08:39:AM
JB just isn't/wasn't the " type " to see or even be involved with the carnage that were the murders of WHF.
He didn't even relish the pheasant shoot and would have been totally useless during combat. Unlike his father.

 
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Jane on June 07, 2018, 08:46:AM
JB just isn't/wasn't the " type " to see or even be involved with the carnage that were the murders of WHF.
He didn't even relish the pheasant shoot and would have been totally useless during combat. Unlike his father.

 


And what, in your opinion, is the "type"?
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Jane on June 07, 2018, 08:55:AM
My main point was that the statements made that night about what JB did or didn't say were written from memory of much earlier conversations . We all know what happens when people repeat earlier conversations, intentionally or not they can add their own interpretations, attitudes, misunderstandings and jargon so using such reported words is far from dependable to make a point, no matter who said it or repeated it.
As for crawling through windows etc.  it is true he COULD have and that stands in a court of law I know that but this is the problem  with circumstantial evidence it's flakey and can always be questioned.  There is so little factual evidence, Julie Mugford is questionable as is the silencer evidence. The main reason people are definite he's guilty range from 'he's a psychopath'..... is he? How do you know?  or 'he is greedy and arrogant' or they 'know' just as Lookout and others 'know' he's innocent. It leaves me after years on this forum not knowing.  :-\

Maggie, I have no idea if your comment is "Jeremy" particular or those accused per se. If the latter is so, I guess you have a problem with all convictions, "How to you know?" can be applied everywhere.
As for statements being written later, other than teaching the police shorthand, I don't know what the answer is. I'm happy to admit that my belief in his innocence was entirely emotional. My change to his guilt was reasoned.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on June 07, 2018, 09:40:AM

And what, in your opinion, is the "type"?






As we know ALL nursing staff,police and the fire service are faced with carnage of sorts throughout their careers and it takes a certain type of person to carry out such duties and to be able to deal with these horrors that life throws up otherwise the job isn't for you.
These people DO suffer after a trauma and although it eases with time it NEVER goes away as at certain times in their lives they experience flashbacks which in some cases affects them greatly.

Does this mean that the majority who deal/have dealt with such traumas are psychopaths in your world just because they can continue with their lives and jobs ?

If Jeremy had indeed murdered his family he WOULD have shown the marked effects his killings would have done.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on June 07, 2018, 09:45:AM
JB will be reminded of his own trauma on a daily basis for the simple reason that he was never allowed the time to grieve but instead had to begin making notes on the whys and wherefores of how this tragedy happened and he's never stopped writing since.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: David1819 on June 07, 2018, 11:03:AM
Maggie, I have no idea if your comment is "Jeremy" particular or those accused per se. If the latter is so, I guess you have a problem with all convictions, "How to you know?" can be applied everywhere.
As for statements being written later, other than teaching the police shorthand, I don't know what the answer is. I'm happy to admit that my belief in his innocence was entirely emotional. My change to his guilt was reasoned.

No it wasn’t.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on June 07, 2018, 11:14:AM
These killings had been carried out by a person in a blind psychotic state whose delusions got the better of them and no way need I explain myself about Jeremy's innocence when he took no part.

Jeremy,to my knowledge,hasn't even shown a temper in all these years let alone psychosis. Not even a trashed cell when certain thoughts emerge. Staying relatively calm is key to saving the sanity and thought processing.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Jane on June 07, 2018, 11:49:AM





As we know ALL nursing staff,police and the fire service are faced with carnage of sorts throughout their careers and it takes a certain type of person to carry out such duties and to be able to deal with these horrors that life throws up otherwise the job isn't for you.
These people DO suffer after a trauma and although it eases with time it NEVER goes away as at certain times in their lives they experience flashbacks which in some cases affects them greatly.

Does this mean that the majority who deal/have dealt with such traumas are psychopaths in your world just because they can continue with their lives and jobs ?

If Jeremy had indeed murdered his family he WOULD have shown the marked effects his killings would have done.


There's a vast difference between being a psychopath and being on the psychopathic spectrum, Lookout. What you've just said shows how lacking in knowledge you are of the subject.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Jane on June 07, 2018, 12:02:PM
These killings had been carried out by a person in a blind psychotic state whose delusions got the better of them and no way need I explain myself about Jeremy's innocence when he took no part.

Jeremy,to my knowledge,hasn't even shown a temper in all these years let alone psychosis. Not even a trashed cell when certain thoughts emerge. Staying relatively calm is key to saving the sanity and thought processing.


Why have you introduced psychosis? No one have ever suggested he's psychotic. It's not even necessary for him to have a violent temper to commit murder, it was simply something necessary in order to achieve his aim -although wasn't there an incident in which he painted his cell walls with poo?- mind you, suppressing temper CAN lead to violent emotional explosions. I'm not saying any one of these things occurred. I'm just pointing out the possibilities. 'My' world differs from yours because the inhabitants aren't restricted to the hard and fast rules that those in 'your' world are required to adhere to in order to fit.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Caroline on June 07, 2018, 12:08:PM
JB just isn't/wasn't the " type " to see or even be involved with the carnage that were the murders of WHF.
He didn't even relish the pheasant shoot and would have been totally useless during combat. Unlike his father.

 

As you said to me, you don't know him Lookout - you just think you do.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Caroline on June 07, 2018, 12:11:PM
These killings had been carried out by a person in a blind psychotic state whose delusions got the better of them and no way need I explain myself about Jeremy's innocence when he took no part.

Jeremy,to my knowledge,hasn't even shown a temper in all these years let alone psychosis. Not even a trashed cell when certain thoughts emerge. Staying relatively calm is key to saving the sanity and thought processing.

He attacked another prisoner and took part in a dirty protest, smearing excrement all over his cell walls. So that's both claims debunked. I doubt he would make a habit of causing bother in prison, his victimology is women, children and old people.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on June 07, 2018, 12:18:PM
He attacked another prisoner and took part in a dirty protest, smearing excrement all over his cell walls. So that's both claims debunked.






Now why was I waiting for this his only incident ?-----------which no doubt taught him a lesson as well as giving off his pent-up emotion.
I don't condone such behaviour at all, but having had a taste of this kind of attention-seeking you'd have thought he'd continued his protests since those early days.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on June 07, 2018, 12:19:PM
Wasn't his attack in retaliation to a prisoner cutting open his neck with a bottle ?
As I understood JB had been in a queue for the phone with his back to the offender ?
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Jane on June 07, 2018, 12:26:PM





Now why was I waiting for this his only incident ?-----------which no doubt taught him a lesson as well as giving off his pent-up emotion.
I don't condone such behaviour at all, but having had a taste of this kind of attention-seeking you'd have thought he'd continued his protests since those early days.

Who says he doesn't. He doesn't have to do anything major. He can just be an irritant, a thorn in the side. As you say, he'll have learned, Don't we all do what works best for us? The portrait -actually, the several portraits- you've painted of him have produced an unbelievable character.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on June 07, 2018, 12:52:PM
Who says he doesn't. He doesn't have to do anything major. He can just be an irritant, a thorn in the side. As you say, he'll have learned, Don't we all do what works best for us? The portrait -actually, the several portraits- you've painted of him have produced an unbelievable character.






Not an " unbelievable character " at all. A normal person who goes through his or her life as life dictates.
What's so remarkable about that ? You " paint his picture " as being that of another Ripper character just because everyone else does. Why question me because I have different views.Is not that my prerogative on a discussion forum ?   
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on June 07, 2018, 01:00:PM
Why should you care what I think or say because as sure as Hell I don't care what you and others say. I'm not here to change people's minds the same as one or two of you aren't so what's the problem ?

A couple of childish incidents in prison doesn't equate to having murdered anyone.

I'm sick of this feminism fad that has swept the world that it's ALWAYS the men who commit the crimes and not the women. Even the law comes down heavily on males in favour of females. Where's the equality there ? It's about time people woke up to the fact that many males are suffering because of a woman/women. 
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on June 07, 2018, 01:10:PM
Everyone listened/read what JM had to say and agreed-------openly accusing without impunity because in the eyes of the law she was a defenceless woman standing against a " subhuman " JB.

If the police 33 years later wouldn't believe that a woman could kill her family---what chance did JB ever have ?
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Jane on June 07, 2018, 01:11:PM





Not an " unbelievable character " at all. A normal person who goes through his or her life as life dictates.
What's so remarkable about that ? You " paint his picture " as being that of another Ripper character just because everyone else does. Why question me because I have different views.Is not that my prerogative on a discussion forum ?

The picture I paint allows him to have and experience feelings. The one you paint is of the child who can't wait to grow up and follow in his father's footsteps, yet everything about Jeremy tells me he can think of nothing worse. Your picture paints him as a family oriented, well behaved youth, yet June never talked about him to her friends. You present him as having nothing more than the odd, youthful disagreement with Nevill, yet friends of Nevill claimed he despaired of him. You paint him as wanting to do nothing more than farm in Essex. I believe he was desperate to gain his freedom and have plenty of money whilst he was young enough to enjoy both.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Jane on June 07, 2018, 01:12:PM
Why should you care what I think or say because as sure as Hell I don't care what you and others say. I'm not here to change people's minds the same as one or two of you aren't so what's the problem ?

A couple of childish incidents in prison doesn't equate to having murdered anyone.

I'm sick of this feminism fad that has swept the world that it's ALWAYS the men who commit the crimes and not the women. Even the law comes down heavily on males in favour of females. Where's the equality there ? It's about time people woke up to the fact that many males are suffering because of a woman/women.

You appear not to have much time for the female of the species.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on June 07, 2018, 01:19:PM
The picture I paint allows him to have and experience feelings. The one you paint is of the child who can't wait to grow up and follow in his father's footsteps, yet everything about Jeremy tells me he can think of nothing worse. Your picture paints him as a family oriented, well behaved youth, yet June never talked about him to her friends. You present him as having nothing more than the odd, youthful disagreement with Nevill, yet friends of Nevill claimed he despaired of him. You paint him as wanting to do nothing more than farm in Essex. I believe he was desperate to gain his freedom and have plenty of money whilst he was young enough to enjoy both.







I don't know anyone who hasn't despaired over their offspring---------they wouldn't be normal otherwise so that's another weak excuse along with other feeble excuses in order to justify your guilt of him.

Feelings ? You don't allow anyone to have feelings least of all JB so don't kid yourself. I'll ignore the fact that you said that at all.
 
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Jane on June 07, 2018, 01:20:PM
Everyone listened/read what JM had to say and agreed-------openly accusing without impunity because in the eyes of the law she was a defenceless woman standing against a " subhuman " JB.

If the police 33 years later wouldn't believe that a woman could kill her family---what chance did JB ever have ?

Lookout, you seem to forget that, at the time it happened, I thought he was innocent. I don't, for a moment think "the law" regarded Julie as "a defenceless woman". Locally, most seemed to be against her. However, the jury believed her. It COULD have gone either way -wasn't it said that they could both have been consummate actors?- they MAY have taken the 'woman scorned' route.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Jane on June 07, 2018, 01:27:PM






I don't know anyone who hasn't despaired over their offspring---------they wouldn't be normal otherwise so that's another weak excuse along with other feeble excuses in order to justify your guilt of him.

Feelings ? You don't allow anyone to have feelings least of all JB so don't kid yourself. I'll ignore the fact that you said that at all.

Perhaps you can name the feelings YOU'VE allowed him. What do you mean by saying I need to justify my guilt of him? I certainly believe my picture of him is more human than the cardboard cutout, goody two shoes, Hugh Grant buffoon lookalike you present.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on June 07, 2018, 01:28:PM
Lookout, you seem to forget that, at the time it happened, I thought he was innocent. I don't, for a moment think "the law" regarded Julie as "a defenceless woman". Locally, most seemed to be against her. However, the jury believed her. It COULD have gone either way -wasn't it said that they could both have been consummate actors?- they MAY have taken the 'woman scorned' route.





JM was pivotal in this case yet she managed to hoodwink EVERYONE even the police which points to my claim about men always getting the blame.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on June 07, 2018, 01:37:PM
Exactly how many questions have you asked yourself about this case ? To change your mind about a huge mass murder takes more than the time it took for you to change your mind.

Have you ever thought of giving your reasons for his guilt beyond forums like others have done so that you can form a page on Twitter for the guilt side of JB ?
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Jane on June 07, 2018, 01:54:PM




JM was pivotal in this case yet she managed to hoodwink EVERYONE even the police which points to my claim about men always getting the blame.

Dear me. And to think I used to go along with that................until I came to my senses. Have you ANY idea how much power you loading onto a rather unattractive -albeit- highly intelligent 21 year old. You're basically saying that all men, connected with the case, who had any contact with her, were seduced by her, and/or are therefore fools for allowing her to walk over them.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on June 07, 2018, 02:07:PM
Dear me. And to think I used to go along with that................until I came to my senses. Have you ANY idea how much power you loading onto a rather unattractive -albeit- highly intelligent 21 year old. You're basically saying that all men, connected with the case, who had any contact with her, were seduced by her, and/or are therefore fools for allowing her to walk over them.






You don't half fabricate what I've said. What a stupid answer that bears nothing to what I said whatsoever. Is it any wonder there are so many MOJ's when people like you all have the same far-out mindset of a blinkered individual.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on June 07, 2018, 02:15:PM
How about answering my other questions without " going round the houses " ..

Even the " highly intelligent " can come a cropper at some point !!  Unattractive ?? Why,can you beat her in the attractive stakes or something ?
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on June 07, 2018, 02:17:PM
Thank goodness I didn't say she was unattractive. Can you imagine the stick I'd have got  for that too ??
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on June 07, 2018, 02:21:PM
To my mind all 21 year old girls are attractive. This is coming from someone who isn't a feminist too !! Or any other " ist ".
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: maggie on June 07, 2018, 02:24:PM
Thank goodness I didn't say she was unattractive. Can you imagine the stick I'd have got  for that too ??
She certainly had something JB wanted. I don't see her as unattractive as a young woman, nothing wrong with her imo but not a dazzling beauty.  So I expect Jeremy actually liked her as I'm sure he wasn't stuck for female company.   They must have had a lot in common to get on as well as they seemed to for quite a long time.  :-\
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on June 07, 2018, 02:48:PM
Usually said by those who are no oil-painting themselves.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Jane on June 07, 2018, 02:52:PM





You don't half fabricate what I've said. What a stupid answer that bears nothing to what I said whatsoever. Is it any wonder there are so many MOJ's when people like you all have the same far-out mindset of a blinkered individual.

I'm fabricating? When you said she managed to hoodwink everybody? She would have required something rather special in order to do that. All I did was point out how bamboozled must have been the men who allowed it.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Jane on June 07, 2018, 02:58:PM
Usually said by those who are no oil-painting themselves.

Undoubtedly you'd say that of me.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on June 07, 2018, 03:01:PM
I'm fabricating? When you said she managed to hoodwink everybody? She would have required something rather special in order to do that. All I did was point out how bamboozled must have been the men who allowed it.





She did manage to hoodwink everyone particularly when the tears flowed at the defence side of the argument. While knowing in her heart that JB hadn't been responsible for the killings. She was the actress it was clear especially when she knew there was a bounty to collect at the end of it.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on June 07, 2018, 03:02:PM
Nobody knew about that did they ? So hoodwinked is correct.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Jane on June 07, 2018, 03:07:PM




She did manage to hoodwink everyone particularly when the tears flowed at the defence side of the argument. While knowing in her heart that JB hadn't been responsible for the killings. She was the actress it was clear especially when she knew there was a bounty to collect at the end of it.

I believe it was said that they were both consummate actors? No matter. Regardless of whatever opinions you and I hold, they are ONLY that. Nothing I have to say will be responsible for keeping him where I believe he belongs and nothing you have to say will assist his release.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on June 07, 2018, 03:12:PM
I believe it was said that they were both consummate actors? No matter. Regardless of whatever opinions you and I hold, they are ONLY that. Nothing I have to say will be responsible for keeping him where I believe he belongs and nothing you have to say will assist his release.






The difference is that there's a legal and forensic team working behind the scenes to get him out but no such team fighting to keep him inside.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on June 07, 2018, 03:14:PM
Why do you think so many are fighting towards his release ?
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Jane on June 07, 2018, 03:17:PM





The difference is that there's a legal and forensic team working behind the scenes to get him out but no such team fighting to keep him inside.

Probably because no one believes he'll get out.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Jane on June 07, 2018, 03:19:PM




She did manage to hoodwink everyone particularly when the tears flowed at the defence side of the argument. While knowing in her heart that JB hadn't been responsible for the killings. She was the actress it was clear especially when she knew there was a bounty to collect at the end of it.

Only your opinion.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Jane on June 07, 2018, 03:20:PM
Why do you think so many are fighting towards his release ?


"So many" as opposed to what?  It's relative.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on June 07, 2018, 03:20:PM
Would you work for nothing to help release someone who was labelled a mass murderer ?

These are the sort of questions you should ask yourself. Then ask yourself why they'd do it.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Jane on June 07, 2018, 03:23:PM
Would you work for nothing to help release someone who was labelled a mass murderer ?

These are the sort of questions you should ask yourself. Then ask yourself why they'd do it.

Interns will work on cases as part of their training. I don't believe they're given a choice. I don't imagine that any one of his team have given up careers on his behalf.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on June 07, 2018, 03:26:PM
Probably because no one believes he'll get out.





C'mon,that's not the reason and you know it.You'll have to do better than that.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on June 07, 2018, 03:31:PM
Interns will work on cases as part of their training. I don't believe they're given a choice. I don't imagine that any one of his team have given up careers on his behalf.





There are trainees ( fresh minds ) as well as others who are " old-hands " at law including the QC,who know far more than you or I, by a mile or 10.
Nobody has " given up " their careers,on the contrary this case will further their existing employ.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Caroline on June 07, 2018, 04:21:PM





Now why was I waiting for this his only incident ?-----------which no doubt taught him a lesson as well as giving off his pent-up emotion.
I don't condone such behaviour at all, but having had a taste of this kind of attention-seeking you'd have thought he'd continued his protests since those early days.

He found a better way - he acquired a campaign team. I am sure he learned that dirty protests won't get him anywhere and that it's never a good idea to make to many enemies in prison by attacking the inmates.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Caroline on June 07, 2018, 04:21:PM
Wasn't his attack in retaliation to a prisoner cutting open his neck with a bottle ?
As I understood JB had been in a queue for the phone with his back to the offender ?

No, separate occasion.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: petey on June 07, 2018, 04:22:PM





The difference is that there's a legal and forensic team working behind the scenes to get him out but no such team fighting to keep him inside.

What do you believe actually happens ‘behind the scenes’ ?!

In a solicitors office, solicitors, trainees and paralegals work on numerous matters each day / week / month and and year. Some may be individual client matters, some different people from the same area of the firm may work together and some different people from different areas of the firm work together.

Each piece of work is usually assigned a priority due to the immediacy the work needs to be completed, the importance of the client to the firm and the likelihood of further work.

The thought that there is a legal team solely focussed on jb, working exclusively on his case is simply not true. He will be very low priority compared to fee-paying clients. Fee-paying work and work from regular clients will always take priority over jb. Obviously this is only my opinion but I’ve worked in solicitors offices long enough to know how they work.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on June 07, 2018, 04:25:PM
 I didn't say that these people will be working solely on JB's case.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Caroline on June 07, 2018, 04:28:PM
Why should you care what I think or say because as sure as Hell I don't care what you and others say. I'm not here to change people's minds the same as one or two of you aren't so what's the problem ?

A couple of childish incidents in prison doesn't equate to having murdered anyone.

I'm sick of this feminism fad that has swept the world that it's ALWAYS the men who commit the crimes and not the women. Even the law comes down heavily on males in favour of females. Where's the equality there ? It's about time people woke up to the fact that many males are suffering because of a woman/women.

Nothing in isolation equates to him murdering anyone but this is a discussion forum, to discuss aspects of the case we think might be relevant. Might I remind you that it was YOU who brought up the topic of him never having been in any trouble in prison and that isn't the case. It's not at all relevant to whether he commited five murders. I've never heard of Denis Nilsen being in any bother but he isn't innocent so although Bambers skirmishes don't make him guilty, they don't make him innocent either!
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Caroline on June 07, 2018, 04:31:PM
Exactly how many questions have you asked yourself about this case ? To change your mind about a huge mass murder takes more than the time it took for you to change your mind.

Have you ever thought of giving your reasons for his guilt beyond forums like others have done so that you can form a page on Twitter for the guilt side of JB ?

It seems to me that you haven't asked yourself any questions because as you keep telling us, you have never budged from your original position and refuse to question your position no matter what!
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Caroline on June 07, 2018, 04:32:PM
Why should you care what I think or say because as sure as Hell I don't care what you and others say. I'm not here to change people's minds the same as one or two of you aren't so what's the problem ?

A couple of childish incidents in prison doesn't equate to having murdered anyone.

I'm sick of this feminism fad that has swept the world that it's ALWAYS the men who commit the crimes and not the women. Even the law comes down heavily on males in favour of females. Where's the equality there ? It's about time people woke up to the fact that many males are suffering because of a woman/women.

What on earth has feminism got to do with murder?  ???
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Caroline on June 07, 2018, 04:34:PM




She did manage to hoodwink everyone particularly when the tears flowed at the defence side of the argument. While knowing in her heart that JB hadn't been responsible for the killings. She was the actress it was clear especially when she knew there was a bounty to collect at the end of it.

She didn't have a deal with anyone when she came forward.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Caroline on June 07, 2018, 04:35:PM





The difference is that there's a legal and forensic team working behind the scenes to get him out but no such team fighting to keep him inside.

No team needs to fight to keep him inside - no matter how many 'teams' are working to get him out, if they have bugger all to deal with, he won't be going anywhere.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Caroline on June 07, 2018, 04:35:PM
Why do you think so many are fighting towards his release ?

I don't think they are.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Caroline on June 07, 2018, 04:37:PM
Would you work for nothing to help release someone who was labelled a mass murderer ?

These are the sort of questions you should ask yourself. Then ask yourself why they'd do it.

Some because they believe him, others because they think they will get something out of it.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Caroline on June 07, 2018, 04:40:PM




There are trainees ( fresh minds ) as well as others who are " old-hands " at law including the QC,who know far more than you or I, by a mile or 10.
Nobody has " given up " their careers,on the contrary this case will further their existing employ.

Aye, there's the rub in your argument! Do they think he's innocent or do they want to further their careers?  ;)
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on June 07, 2018, 04:45:PM
What on earth has feminism got to do with murder?  ???






That professional males will believe a female over a male anytime. Women don't commit such crimes as murder/rape/fraud etc etc.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on June 07, 2018, 04:49:PM
It seems to me that you haven't asked yourself any questions because as you keep telling us, you have never budged from your original position and refuse to question your position no matter what!






It's because I don't see him in the equation at all and I certainly can't make myself form any other opinion. I don't doubt that you were already fixed on his guilt even before you " changed sides ".
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on June 07, 2018, 04:49:PM
She didn't have a deal with anyone when she came forward.







Prove it.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on June 07, 2018, 04:50:PM
I don't think they are.





Why,what makes you think that ?
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on June 07, 2018, 04:56:PM
No team needs to fight to keep him inside - no matter how many 'teams' are working to get him out, if they have bugger all to deal with, he won't be going anywhere.





But there are matters to deal with that the legal team have found. It's just that they haven't said what it is so we'll have to wait.
You seem intent on doing your best to leave him where he is,even after 33 years ? 
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on June 07, 2018, 04:58:PM
Aye, there's the rub in your argument! Do they think he's innocent or do they want to further their careers?  ;)






Both. Why's that so difficult  ?
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: mike tesko on June 07, 2018, 07:06:PM
According to the guilty mob, Jeremy not only tricked Essex police into initially believing that Sheila had shot the others, and then herself, but he also tricked Julie Mugford' into believing that he (Jeremy) had hired a hitman to carry out the killings for £2000...

Mugford' did not come forward voluntarily, she was pressurised to do so, at peril of being drawn into the sordid affair, by her pal who actually contacted the police on Mugford' behalf...

Her half baked account was soon exposed as nothing short of a fairy tale, I think as soon as she realised she wouldn't be getting g her hands on any of the inheritance benefits coming her way, once Jeremy dumped her, she took the path 'hell hath no fury like a woman scorned', and got a £25,000 payday for her troubles!

No hitman shot and killed Sheila Caffell, but the cops did!
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Adam on June 07, 2018, 07:31:PM
According to the guilty mob, Jeremy not only tricked Essex police into initially believing that Sheila had shot the others, and then herself, but he also tricked Julie Mugford' into believing that he (Jeremy) had hired a hitman to carry out the killings for £2000...

Mugford' did not come forward voluntarily, she was pressurised to do so, at peril of being drawn into the sordid affair, by her pal who actually contacted the police on Mugford' behalf...

Her half baked account was soon exposed as nothing short of a fairy tale, I think as soon as she realised she wouldn't be getting g her hands on any of the inheritance benefits coming her way, once Jeremy dumped her, she took the path 'hell hath no fury like a woman scorned', and got a £25,000 payday for her troubles!

No hitman shot and killed Sheila Caffell, but the cops did!

What did Jeremy say to you about Julie ?
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Caroline on June 07, 2018, 08:10:PM





That professional males will believe a female over a male anytime. Women don't commit such crimes as murder/rape/fraud etc etc.

That's nothing to do with feminism but I don't agree, it would depend on the circumstances.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Caroline on June 07, 2018, 08:13:PM





It's because I don't see him in the equation at all and I certainly can't make myself form any other opinion. I don't doubt that you were already fixed on his guilt even before you " changed sides ".

Huh? I don't even know what that means - I thought he was guilty even when I thought he was innocent? Heard it all now!  ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Caroline on June 07, 2018, 08:14:PM






Prove it.

I don't have to prove it - she didn't and I don't think anyone with any sense would suggest that she did!  ::)
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Caroline on June 07, 2018, 08:16:PM




Why,what makes you think that ?

Only the CT are 'fighting' - to anyone else, it's just a job, they don't even have to believe he's innocent.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Caroline on June 07, 2018, 08:18:PM




But there are matters to deal with that the legal team have found. It's just that they haven't said what it is so we'll have to wait.
You seem intent on doing your best to leave him where he is,even after 33 years ?

You have no idea if they have found anything - you're just speculating and the CT are just spouting the same old stuff. Too right I want him to stay where he is - I think he's GUILTY! And for killing 5 people (including two sleeping 6 year olds), 33 years is not enough.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Caroline on June 07, 2018, 08:19:PM





Both. Why's that so difficult  ?

Prove it!  ::)
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on June 07, 2018, 08:20:PM
Only the CT are 'fighting' - to anyone else, it's just a job, they don't even have to believe he's innocent.






So the legal team attached to the CT don't believe he's innocent ?
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on June 07, 2018, 08:24:PM
I don't have to prove it - she didn't and I don't think anyone with any sense would suggest that she did!  ::)






How do you know ?
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Caroline on June 07, 2018, 09:10:PM





How do you know ?

Because if she told the NOTW that Jeremy killed the family, they would have printed it  - like they did when Jeremy tried to sell the pictures.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: mike tesko on June 07, 2018, 11:00:PM
In the minds of the very sad guilters, Jeremy Bamber was, and is responsible for everything, providing that it paints the stance these brain dead morons seek to take...


God have mercy on anyone who is unfortunate enough to have people like these impaneled on a jury trying their case...


Bias, clearly comes into play, wherever these morons get involved, or form an opinion - they couldn't recognize the truth if it hit them, bang, smack, in the face...

Cops don't lie, cops don't fabricate evidence, and cops don't ever cover up anything!!!

The guilty supporters are untrustworthy, you simply cannot rely on the garbage that comes out of their mouths...

Cops are reliable, honest, trustworthy, and dependable - oh, yeah, who says so?

Cops only see and find what they are looking for...

The Crown prosecution service have license to interpret all of this nonsense any how they please, in full knowledge that they cannot ever be prosecuted for any lies, or 'that they try to brainwash the jury' with,during a trial...

Almost all of these guilty supporters have never fallen foul of the tactics that are often adopted by rogue police officers, trying to make a name for themselves, in a corrupted criminal Justice System...

It becomes a case of the blind, trying to lead the blind, a total hopeless exercise...
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: mike tesko on June 07, 2018, 11:04:PM
Many of these 'guilters'...

are at a considerable disadvantage, to anyone seeking the absolute truth, since...
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: mike tesko on June 07, 2018, 11:09:PM
Many of these 'guilters'...

are at a considerable disadvantage, to anyone seeking the absolute truth, since...

How...
 
can anyone, 'state in clear unambiguous terms', that ...
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: mike tesko on June 07, 2018, 11:14:PM
How...
 
can anyone, 'state in clear unambiguous terms', that ...

Jeremy Bamber, had shot and killed anyone?
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Caroline on June 08, 2018, 12:35:AM





So the legal team attached to the CT don't believe he's innocent ?

I have no interest in the CT and don't have faith in anything they say.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: mike tesko on June 08, 2018, 06:51:AM
Jeremy Bamber, had shot and killed anyone?

The truth in this matter was that Jeremy wasn't even present at the farmhouse when anyone got shot - in particular, when the cops shot and killed off Sheila Caffell upstairs on the main bedroom floor...

Sheila was shot downstairs in the kitchen and wrongly presumed to have died - the contents of the timed police radio log contents referring to this fact! Sheila's body was the female body mentioned as being present downstairs in the kitchen between 7.35am and 8.10am. Her body, or herself, was not upstairs until after 8.10am..

The contents of the contemporaneously recorded and individually timed police radio message log cannot be brushed off by a claim that they can be put down to errors in communication because for this to be true there exist some significant coincidences which simply could not occur simply for the purpose of masking what actually took place...

The devil is in the detail, and cops are renown for giving times to events they took part in (the witness statement version of the 'alleged events' have little or no timed events in any of them)...

The police messages timed at 7.35am, 7.37am, 7.38am, 7.42am, 7.45am, and 8.10am, are true!

Sheila was the female body being spoken about, downstairs in the kitchen, from as early as 7.35am, and what is more we can say with a degree of certainty that Sheila was not upstairs by 8.10am...

The rather fanciful explanation that Neville Bambers body was somehow mistaken for the body of a dead female is a preposterous and badly thought out suggestion - since, in order for that / this to be remotely true, reference to the body of a dead female would need to have been mentioned, prior to any mention of the body of a dead male. This is because the sighting of the dead female was made from outside the kitchen window, and the discovery of two bodies in the kitchen upon entry, were made once the police had entered the farmhouse, and in particular, the kitchen...

The timed police radio message log contents make it abundantly clear that the references which are recorded relate to instances and events which took place after the firearms officers had already entered the farmhouse...

Upon entering the farmhouse, in particular the kitchen, they discovered first and foremost, the body of a dead male,which can only be a reference to Neville Bambers body, followed by a series of reports confirming that in addition to his body, there was also the body of a female present in the kitchen at that stage...

Nothing could be any clearer..

Sheila was downstairs in the kitchen from 7.35am, onward, until after 8.10am, she had already been shot once by this stage, her assumed death being referred to at around 7.45am, as a suicide!

A suicide inside the farmhouse by 7.45am, and the police noting that by 8.10am, there were only three bodies found upstairs...

Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Jane on June 08, 2018, 12:01:PM





So the legal team attached to the CT don't believe he's innocent ?

They're not required to.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on June 08, 2018, 12:55:PM
They're not required to.






But they happen to be.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Jane on June 08, 2018, 12:59:PM





But they happen to be.


Have they all signed documents to that effect?
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on June 08, 2018, 01:13:PM

Have they all signed documents to that effect?






Another idiotic question of which neither you nor I can know. ::)
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Jane on June 08, 2018, 01:34:PM





Another idiotic question of which neither you nor I can know. ::)

Any more that we can know they're all convinced of his innocence.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on June 08, 2018, 02:18:PM
Any more that we can know they're all convinced of his innocence.






Says you. It's what I've come to expect.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Jane on June 08, 2018, 02:27:PM





Says you. It's what I've come to expect.

Mmm, but then I've dared suggest we don't know everything, whilst you're convinced you know it all.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on June 08, 2018, 02:30:PM
Mmm, but then I've dared suggest we don't know everything, whilst you're convinced you know it all.






I certainly don't profess to know it all nor do I convince myself that I do. That's your department with your " more than precise " projections.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Jane on June 08, 2018, 02:44:PM





I certainly don't profess to know it all nor do I convince myself that I do. That's your department with your " more than precise " projections.

Surely I'm not mistaken in recalling, that on numerous occasions, you've claimed to never be wrong?
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on June 08, 2018, 03:15:PM
Surely I'm not mistaken in recalling, that on numerous occasions, you've claimed to never be wrong?






I'm not " never wrong " but most of the time I'm not,particularly when it comes to judging people. When you've lived as " long " as I have it comes as second nature.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Caroline on June 08, 2018, 04:57:PM





But they happen to be.

I doubt that you are in their confidence.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on June 08, 2018, 05:11:PM
I doubt that you are in their confidence.






Would you think that I'd lose sleep over that ?
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Caroline on June 08, 2018, 06:39:PM





Would you think that I'd lose sleep over that ?

Not only do I not think about it now, I never have! You brought it up, you claimed they believe he's innocent and yet you really don't know one way or the other or even if (as you keep calling them), they are a 'team'! Personally, I don't believe 'they' even exist.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on June 08, 2018, 06:50:PM
Not only do I not think about it now, I never have! You brought it up, you claimed they believe he's innocent and yet you really don't know one way or the other or even if (as you keep calling them), they are a 'team'! Personally, I don't believe 'they' even exist.






You're not making sense either.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Caroline on June 08, 2018, 07:42:PM





You're not making sense either.

Well, we finally have something in common then!
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on June 08, 2018, 07:44:PM
Well, we finally have something in common then!







Glad you've admitted it.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Caroline on June 08, 2018, 07:49:PM






Glad you've admitted it.

That you don't make sense? No problem!
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on June 08, 2018, 07:54:PM
That you don't make sense? No problem!






You neither-------but a big problem.
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Caroline on June 08, 2018, 08:06:PM





You neither-------but a big problem.

This is almost "nah, nah, nah. nah nah" stuff.  ::)
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: lookout on June 08, 2018, 08:08:PM
This is almost "nah, nah, nah. nah nah" stuff.  ::)






---------not my fault !!
Title: Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
Post by: Caroline on June 08, 2018, 09:34:PM





---------not my fault !!

 ::)