Jeremy Bamber Forum

JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: Jane on June 04, 2018, 09:53:AM

Title: Truth, The Whole Truth......Or That Which Others Want Us To Believe Is Truth
Post by: Jane on June 04, 2018, 09:53:AM
It seems to me that we have two entirely different stories going on here. We have the version given us by EP. I'm perfectly certain that the case is now used as a training exercise in "How Not To Run An Investigation". I feel certain that, as a force, they're probably a little embarrassed by it, albeit, they got their man..................in the end.

 However, I am convinced, that much may have been done by those seeking to exonerate Jeremy, to exaggerate what occurred by showing them in as bad a light as possible. It leaves us with a choice. We accept -warts and all- what the police tell us occurred, OR we dismiss it and accept what those who are pro Jeremy tell us 'REALLY' occurred...............but before we take their version as the definitive one, perhaps we should have a close look at their possible agenda. Just how many of them lend their full support to police in general -there are more than a few who seem to think they could have done a better job- how many of them would be prepared to stand up and admit we probably have the finest police force in the world? How many of them take pleasure in "getting one over" when it comes to their dealings with police? It's very possible that such persons, whilst probably being the first to demand that "police should do something" will be doing their best to make it as difficult for them as they can. Their versions of events, all designed to make police look incompetent, are certainly likely to be very different from versions given us by police....................

.............To whit!! We're led to believe that there was more corruption, within that small unit of EP engaged in the investigation at WHF, than in the rest of the force in England, and America, it seems, don't know nuttin' when it comes to corruption...................and it all begins with a couple of 'numpties' operating in different buildings, one a civilian, deciding to withhold information just in case it was decided to prosecute Jeremy at a later date -THIS of course, has to presupposes that they already knew Jeremy and what was going to be the outcome of the incident he called about. Moving on, we have a group of 'incompetents' gathered outside the farmhouse, allegedly not knowing what to do. It matters not that their information is that there's a mentally insane woman, a paranoid schizophrenic, in there, recently released from a psych unit, brandishing a weapon that she's fully conversant with, along with her children and her parents, who'd allegedly been threatening to take them away from her. Never mind any of that, they SHOULD have gone in. To hell with the potential consequences.................which had been covered because this mad woman had allegedly had the forethought to call 999 and ask for ambulances!!! Enter -and quickly exit- another incompetent in a hurry to get to his game of golf. Then, we're told, comes the alcoholic doctor. How do we know he's an alcoholic? A Jeremy supporter once smelled alcohol on his breath, AND he carried a hip flask!!! To add to his failures, he only diagnosed Sheila as having A gunshot wound -this, later being translated into a whole OTHER story!!!- never mind that he didn't diagnose any of the victims with more than A gunshot wound. Still, at least the case seemed cut and dried. Thanks to Jeremy, they had the whole history and background of Sheila's mental illness and two hospitalizations. It was clearly a case of murders/suicide.

Enter the family. We're told, grasping, greedy, jealous, determined to do Jeremy out of his birthright. Their biggest crime? to have an alleged Freemason in their midst. We're encouraged to believe that every crime ever committed has Freemasonery at it's heart. We're further encouraged to believe that this family took it upon themselves to manipulate evidence of Sheila as the culprit -not that there had ever been any to start with which wasn't staged- towards Jeremy, and to aid and abet them in this, somehow, so we're encouraged to believe, EP manage to persuade professionals into corruption by getting them to falsify just about everything they handle which is to do with the case. Then, of course, we have the alleged intervention of Drugs Squad and Special Branch, who are there to protect Jeremy -from the drug pushers that his girl friend was allegedly one of, albeit, they were supplied by Jeremy- because of his alleged biological 'father'. One can begin to see how such ludicrousy -lunacy?- if believed, can convince one of police incompetency and corruption.

This all seems to be sucked up, unquestioningly, by Jeremy supporters, who will grab at any straw which might lead to Jeremy's freedom. They only need to hear it said that evidence exists and they're taken in, hook, line and sinker. They seem incapable of seeing the consequences of any of these fictions being fact. Everything which points to police having been corrupt, to them, appears to be further proof of Jeremy's innocence.

Not for a moment am I suggesting that corruption doesn't exist within organizations. However, I don't believe it exists to the extent that everyone connected to a case -other than the accused- is guilty of it, which is what we're being asked to believe.

Title: Re: Truth, The Whole Truth......Or That Which Others Want Us To Believe Is Truth
Post by: lookout on June 04, 2018, 10:27:AM
If it wasn't so serious it would be laughable-----akin to a Brian Rix farce.
Title: Re: Truth, The Whole Truth......Or That Which Others Want Us To Believe Is Truth
Post by: Jane on June 04, 2018, 10:31:AM
If it wasn't so serious it would be laughable-----akin to a Brian Rix farce.


It would, Lookout. Sadly, that's exactly what it's been turned into, rather than what it actually is.
Title: Re: Truth, The Whole Truth......Or That Which Others Want Us To Believe Is Truth
Post by: lookout on June 04, 2018, 10:48:AM

It would, Lookout. Sadly, that's exactly what it's been turned into, rather than what it actually is.





I bet it's left a few reeling having gone through the case from start to finish as well as asking umpteen questions---------which should have ALL been answered in court at the trial.

This alone whether a supporter of guilt or innocence is most definitely worth another long hard look as well as another day in court with the words " beyond reasonable doubt " one way or the other for JB's guilt was NEVER  proven beyond reasonable doubt in the first place which I must admit as being strange given the length of the sentencing but hay-ho who am I to argue with the law ?
Title: Re: Truth, The Whole Truth......Or That Which Others Want Us To Believe Is Truth
Post by: maggie on June 04, 2018, 11:06:AM

It would, Lookout. Sadly, that's exactly what it's been turned into, rather than what it actually is.
Anyone who watched the drama and following documentary about the Jeremy Thorpe case can see the power of the Establishment. If ever there was a farce that is it. It reinforces that anything is possible and we the people only know what we are allowed to know until somehow the truth is forced out. Why trust EP anymore than anyone else in authority?  It should always be questioned. Don't know what is the true reason they might be hiding the truth, it does sound far fetched but that doesn't mean they didn't manipulate. Norman Scott was rubbished and defamed as 'weak' but appears to be rather strong, a survivor.  Reviled but still wanting the truth against all the odds. It's easy to defame people who have no power, he was called 'unstable' , fantasist', paranoid etc. the words 'narcissist', 'psychopath' weren't fashionable.  To commit the crime Jeremy Bamber committed he surely has to be severely disordered but is he? There is no proof he is to public knowledge only hearsay which is used to support people's own opinions. 
Title: Re: Truth, The Whole Truth......Or That Which Others Want Us To Believe Is Truth
Post by: lookout on June 04, 2018, 11:20:AM
Hello Maggie.

I remember vividly when this first came about. The newspapers were packed to the gunnels with the story and this docu-play certainly highlighted the absolute corruption which was abound. It will have opened a lot of eyes as well as cans of worms.
You can bet your life the " whole " truth is well buried under the work of the " establishment " as it invariably is when such a crime surfaces. I remember my mother saying that the truth will never come out.
Norman Scott will be hounded for the rest of his life for just being a friend nothing more.
Title: Re: Truth, The Whole Truth......Or That Which Others Want Us To Believe Is Truth
Post by: maggie on June 04, 2018, 11:30:AM
Hello Maggie.

I remember vividly when this first came about. The newspapers were packed to the gunnels with the story and this docu-play certainly highlighted the absolute corruption which was abound. It will have opened a lot of eyes as well as cans of worms.
You can bet your life the " whole " truth is well buried under the work of the " establishment " as it invariably is when such a crime surfaces. I remember my mother saying that the truth will never come out.
Norman Scott will be hounded for the rest of his life for just being a friend nothing more.
Well, it's a bit off topic but no doubt Jeremy Thorpe groomed and raped Scott. My argument is that the Establishment can close ranks against anyone if it's in their interests. The question is .. Have they done this to JB and if so why?  It doesn't have to be big deal spy or drug stuff and would more likely be far more mundane.
Title: Re: Truth, The Whole Truth......Or That Which Others Want Us To Believe Is Truth
Post by: lookout on June 04, 2018, 11:33:AM
In this,the Bamber case those who can only say that JB was " convicted by a jury"so must be guilty" is not correct as it would only apply where there'd never been a MOJ.

Evidence should be re-examined,it's JB's right as well as everyone else's who find themselves in a similar situation where evidence was withheld.
Title: Re: Truth, The Whole Truth......Or That Which Others Want Us To Believe Is Truth
Post by: David1819 on June 04, 2018, 11:47:AM
It seems to me that we have two entirely different stories going on here. We have the version given us by EP. I'm perfectly certain that the case is now used as a training exercise in "How Not To Run An Investigation". I feel certain that, as a force, they're probably a little embarrassed by it, albeit, they got their man..................in the end.

 However, I am convinced, that much may have been done by those seeking to exonerate Jeremy, to exaggerate what occurred by showing them in as bad a light as possible. It leaves us with a choice. We accept -warts and all- what the police tell us occurred, OR we dismiss it and accept what those who are pro Jeremy tell us 'REALLY' occurred...............but before we take their version as the definitive one, perhaps we should have a close look at their possible agenda. Just how many of them lend their full support to police in general -there are more than a few who seem to think they could have done a better job- how many of them would be prepared to stand up and admit we probably have the finest police force in the world? How many of them take pleasure in "getting one over" when it comes to their dealings with police? It's very possible that such persons, whilst probably being the first to demand that "police should do something" will be doing their best to make it as difficult for them as they can. Their versions of events, all designed to make police look incompetent, are certainly likely to be very different from versions given us by police....................

.............To whit!! We're led to believe that there was more corruption, within that small unit of EP engaged in the investigation at WHF, than in the rest of the force in England, and America, it seems, don't know nuttin' when it comes to corruption...................and it all begins with a couple of 'numpties' operating in different buildings, one a civilian, deciding to withhold information just in case it was decided to prosecute Jeremy at a later date -THIS of course, has to presupposes that they already knew Jeremy and what was going to be the outcome of the incident he called about. Moving on, we have a group of 'incompetents' gathered outside the farmhouse, allegedly not knowing what to do. It matters not that their information is that there's a mentally insane woman, a paranoid schizophrenic, in there, recently released from a psych unit, brandishing a weapon that she's fully conversant with, along with her children and her parents, who'd allegedly been threatening to take them away from her. Never mind any of that, they SHOULD have gone in. To hell with the potential consequences.................which had been covered because this mad woman had allegedly had the forethought to call 999 and ask for ambulances!!! Enter -and quickly exit- another incompetent in a hurry to get to his game of golf. Then, we're told, comes the alcoholic doctor. How do we know he's an alcoholic? A Jeremy supporter once smelled alcohol on his breath, AND he carried a hip flask!!! To add to his failures, he only diagnosed Sheila as having A gunshot wound -this, later being translated into a whole OTHER story!!!- never mind that he didn't diagnose any of the victims with more than A gunshot wound. Still, at least the case seemed cut and dried. Thanks to Jeremy, they had the whole history and background of Sheila's mental illness and two hospitalizations. It was clearly a case of murders/suicide.

Enter the family. We're told, grasping, greedy, jealous, determined to do Jeremy out of his birthright. Their biggest crime? to have an alleged Freemason in their midst. We're encouraged to believe that every crime ever committed has Freemasonery at it's heart. We're further encouraged to believe that this family took it upon themselves to manipulate evidence of Sheila as the culprit -not that there had ever been any to start with which wasn't staged- towards Jeremy, and to aid and abet them in this, somehow, so we're encouraged to believe, EP manage to persuade professionals into corruption by getting them to falsify just about everything they handle which is to do with the case. Then, of course, we have the alleged intervention of Drugs Squad and Special Branch, who are there to protect Jeremy -from the drug pushers that his girl friend was allegedly one of, albeit, they were supplied by Jeremy- because of his alleged biological 'father'. One can begin to see how such ludicrousy -lunacy?- if believed, can convince one of police incompetency and corruption.

This all seems to be sucked up, unquestioningly, by Jeremy supporters, who will grab at any straw which might lead to Jeremy's freedom. They only need to hear it said that evidence exists and they're taken in, hook, line and sinker. They seem incapable of seeing the consequences of any of these fictions being fact. Everything which points to police having been corrupt, to them, appears to be further proof of Jeremy's innocence.

Not for a moment am I suggesting that corruption doesn't exist within organizations. However, I don't believe it exists to the extent that everyone connected to a case -other than the accused- is guilty of it, which is what we're being asked to believe.

"A straw man is a logical fallacy which occurs when a debater intentionally misrepresents their opponent's argument as a weaker version, and rebuts said version — rather than their opponent's genuine argument. Intentional strawmanning is usually done with a certain goal in mind, including:

1.Avoiding real debate against an opponent's real argument, because the misrepresenter risks losing in fair debate

2.Making the opponent's position appear ridiculous as a way of poisoning the well"



Title: Re: Truth, The Whole Truth......Or That Which Others Want Us To Believe Is Truth
Post by: lookout on June 04, 2018, 12:20:PM
Well, it's a bit off topic but no doubt Jeremy Thorpe groomed and raped Scott. My argument is that the Establishment can close ranks against anyone if it's in their interests. The question is .. Have they done this to JB and if so why?  It doesn't have to be big deal spy or drug stuff and would more likely be far more mundane.






Of course they'll close ranks if it's thought that it's going to affect the " Establishment " in any way and yes,I would say that this has happened in the JB case taking into consideration the position of his bio-father and the risk of scandal in those quarters as well as the botched but questionable police investigation which appeared to have been openly biased towards the relatives------------even though they'd " allegedly ?" found the smoking gun before benefitting. So much jiggery-pokery went on it's not surprising that the now legal team didn't know where to start.
Title: Re: Truth, The Whole Truth......Or That Which Others Want Us To Believe Is Truth
Post by: lookout on June 04, 2018, 12:23:PM
The thread should read------- The Truth,the Whole Truth and Nothing Like the Truth !!
Title: Re: Truth, The Whole Truth......Or That Which Others Want Us To Believe Is Truth
Post by: Caroline on June 04, 2018, 12:27:PM
"A straw man is a logical fallacy which occurs when a debater intentionally misrepresents their opponent's argument as a weaker version, and rebuts said version — rather than their opponent's genuine argument. Intentional strawmanning is usually done with a certain goal in mind, including:

1.Avoiding real debate against an opponent's real argument, because the misrepresenter risks losing in fair debate

2.Making the opponent's position appear ridiculous as a way of poisoning the well"

You should know ALL about strawmanning - you're an expert at it! This is why you keep posting insults and BS. You''re doing it now but are too dumb to realise!
Title: Re: Truth, The Whole Truth......Or That Which Others Want Us To Believe Is Truth
Post by: Adam on June 04, 2018, 12:36:PM
"A straw man is a logical fallacy which occurs when a debater intentionally misrepresents their opponent's argument as a weaker version, and rebuts said version — rather than their opponent's genuine argument. Intentional strawmanning is usually done with a certain goal in mind, including:

1.Avoiding real debate against an opponent's real argument, because the misrepresenter risks losing in fair debate

2.Making the opponent's position appear ridiculous as a way of poisoning the well"

What a pity David is goading again and not contributing towards the thread discussion.
Title: Re: Truth, The Whole Truth......Or That Which Others Want Us To Believe Is Truth
Post by: Jane on June 04, 2018, 12:48:PM
Anyone who watched the drama and following documentary about the Jeremy Thorpe case can see the power of the Establishment. If ever there was a farce that is it. It reinforces that anything is possible and we the people only know what we are allowed to know until somehow the truth is forced out. Why trust EP anymore than anyone else in authority?  It should always be questioned. Don't know what is the true reason they might be hiding the truth, it does sound far fetched but that doesn't mean they didn't manipulate. Norman Scott was rubbished and defamed as 'weak' but appears to be rather strong, a survivor.  Reviled but still wanting the truth against all the odds. It's easy to defame people who have no power, he was called 'unstable' , fantasist', paranoid etc. the words 'narcissist', 'psychopath' weren't fashionable.  To commit the crime Jeremy Bamber committed he surely has to be severely disordered but is he? There is no proof he is to public knowledge only hearsay which is used to support people's own opinions.


Whilst I can see that there was every reason for the "Establishment" to conceal, from the general public, the fact that one of their own number -a member of the ruling class- was SHOCK! HORROR!! queer!!!! I can find no justifiably reason for them to need to convict an innocent man to the point where it required the potential corruption and defamation of character of ALL those connected to it.
We've been drip fed various,and always salacious, titbits. We may have failed to notice them over time. We certainly won't have thought what they might look like if they were presented as a whole. This, in full knowledge that it's an incomplete exercise, is what I've attempted to do. You may not agree, but to me, it leaves standing the Jeremy Thorpe farce.
Title: Re: Truth, The Whole Truth......Or That Which Others Want Us To Believe Is Truth
Post by: maggie on June 04, 2018, 12:57:PM

Whilst I can see that there was every reason for the "Establishment" to conceal, from the general public, the fact that one of their own number -a member of the ruling class- was SHOCK! HORROR!! queer!!!! I can find no justifiably reason for them to need to convict an innocent man to the point where it required the potential corruption and defamation of character of ALL those connected to it.
We've been drip fed various,and always salacious, titbits. We may have failed to notice them over time. We certainly won't have thought what they might look like if they were presented as a whole. This, in full knowledge that it's an incomplete exercise, is what I've attempted to do. You may not agree, but to me, it leaves standing the Jeremy Thorpe farce.
Did you see the BBC4 Documentary after the final part of the series last night? The suppression of evidence and support of one of their own who tried to kill another man 5 times to keep his power?   I use it as an example of what the Establishment is capable of. A witness was called to a police station where his original statement was destroyed and he was ordered to sign a rewritten one with all mention of Thorpe removed shows how corrupt the law can be. I'm not comparing like with like and indeed they were very different cases but we really may not know the whole truth about the Bamber case however much we, collectively or individually may believe we do.
Title: Re: Truth, The Whole Truth......Or That Which Others Want Us To Believe Is Truth
Post by: Caroline on June 04, 2018, 01:05:PM
Did you see the BBC4 Documentary after the final part of the series last night? The suppression and support of one of their own who tried to kill another man 5 times to keep his power?   I use it as an example of what the Establishment is capable of. A witness was called to a police station where his original statement was destroyed and he was ordered to sign a rewritten one with all mention of Thorpe removed shows how corrupt the law can be. I'm not comparing like with like and indeed they were very different cases however we really may not know the whole truth about the Bamber case however much we, collectively or individually may believe we do.

I m sure we don't know all of the details but enough to decide whether he did it or not.
Title: Re: Truth, The Whole Truth......Or That Which Others Want Us To Believe Is Truth
Post by: Jane on June 04, 2018, 01:15:PM





Of course they'll close ranks if it's thought that it's going to affect the " Establishment " in any way and yes,I would say that this has happened in the JB case taking into consideration the position of his bio-father and the risk of scandal in those quarters as well as the botched but questionable police investigation which appeared to have been openly biased towards the relatives------------even though they'd " allegedly ?" found the smoking gun before benefitting. So much jiggery-pokery went on it's not surprising that the now legal team didn't know where to start.


This may just be an example of how people get sucked in. You seem to accept the BS about his alleged biological father -and I'm NOT talking about Leslie Marsham here- and the "risk of scandal in those quarters", but let's, for a moment, consider that it's true. Are you prepared, for one moment, to believe the Establishment would allow a small matter of family inheritance being claimed by others in the family to stand in the way of them preventing ANY person with even the tiniest connection to the RF from being hauled through courts on a mass murder charge, especially as we're also told they'd been keeping tabs on him since his birth? If they were capable of the sort of corruption and manipulation you're accusing them of, they'd have gone to any lengths to prevent it. Sheila would undoubtedly have been found guilty.
Title: Re: Truth, The Whole Truth......Or That Which Others Want Us To Believe Is Truth
Post by: Jane on June 04, 2018, 01:20:PM
Did you see the BBC4 Documentary after the final part of the series last night? The suppression and support of one of their own who tried to kill another man 5 times to keep his power?   I use it as an example of what the Establishment is capable of. A witness was called to a police station where his original statement was destroyed and he was ordered to sign a rewritten one with all mention of Thorpe removed shows how corrupt the law can be. I'm not comparing like with like and indeed they were very different cases however we really may not know the whole truth about the Bamber case however much we, collectively or individually may believe we do.

So the Establishment was protecting it's own. Surely, if Jeremy's genes are where we're told they are, after allegedly watching over him all his life, they'd have gone out of their way to protect him, too. Not throw him to the lions.
Title: Re: Truth, The Whole Truth......Or That Which Others Want Us To Believe Is Truth
Post by: lookout on June 04, 2018, 02:08:PM

This may just be an example of how people get sucked in. You seem to accept the BS about his alleged biological father -and I'm NOT talking about Leslie Marsham here- and the "risk of scandal in those quarters", but let's, for a moment, consider that it's true. Are you prepared, for one moment, to believe the Establishment would allow a small matter of family inheritance being claimed by others in the family to stand in the way of them preventing ANY person with even the tiniest connection to the RF from being hauled through courts on a mass murder charge, especially as we're also told they'd been keeping tabs on him since his birth? If they were capable of the sort of corruption and manipulation you're accusing them of, they'd have gone to any lengths to prevent it. Sheila would undoubtedly have been found guilty.






Not necessarily would Sheila have been found guilty as even 30 odd years later it still remains to be an impossibility in the eyes of the law that a female murders all her family let alone any thought of it in 1985 so it's only natural that a male takes the wrap.
Sheila might just have been found guilty if all the facts had been presented but sadly they weren't. Colin would have best explained about Sheila's moods and behaviour especially when he wrote a pleading letter to Nevill telling him that it would be better for her and the boys if he,Colin,had them most of the time. I'd sensed Colin's concern but he'd had to choose his words carefully because it was Sheila's parents and if anyone knew what living with Sheila was like,it had been Colin.

Anyway as far as Marsham is concerned when he uttered about dis-owning or refusing knowledge of JB's existence ( didn't he forfeit/relinquish that when he handed him over as a baby ?) with all the rot about JB being a danger it will remain in the interest of all those concerned to keep him where he is ( though he's never hurt anyone ) There's more danger on the streets right now.
Title: Re: Truth, The Whole Truth......Or That Which Others Want Us To Believe Is Truth
Post by: maggie on June 04, 2018, 02:15:PM
So the Establishment was protecting it's own. Surely, if Jeremy's genes are where we're told they are, after allegedly watching over him all his life, they'd have gone out of their way to protect him, too. Not throw him to the lions.
I did not say that, I used the Thorpe case to highlight the lengths the 'establishment' will go to, to protect its own  I  but that doesn't need to be a huge conspiracy.  I am simply saying cover ups happen and the Establishment which to me includes the Criminal Justice System and the Police are capable of going to any lengths if it's in their own interests.  Their interests can be as simple as covering up their own mistakes and incompetence to protecting politicians and beyond. Maybe they discovered they were right the first time and it had to be Sheila after all? How stupid was Stan Jones etc willing to look in public? It was accepted JB was the culprit let sleeping dogs lie and save their own skins. I don't claim to know the answer but it could be that simple.
Title: Re: Truth, The Whole Truth......Or That Which Others Want Us To Believe Is Truth
Post by: Jane on June 04, 2018, 02:47:PM





Not necessarily would Sheila have been found guilty as even 30 odd years later it still remains to be an impossibility in the eyes of the law that a female murders all her family let alone any thought of it in 1985 so it's only natural that a male takes the wrap.
Sheila might just have been found guilty if all the facts had been presented but sadly they weren't. Colin would have best explained about Sheila's moods and behaviour especially when he wrote a pleading letter to Nevill telling him that it would be better for her and the boys if he,Colin,had them most of the time. I'd sensed Colin's concern but he'd had to choose his words carefully because it was Sheila's parents and if anyone knew what living with Sheila was like,it had been Colin.

Anyway as far as Marsham is concerned when he uttered about dis-owning or refusing knowledge of JB's existence ( didn't he forfeit/relinquish that when he handed him over as a baby ?) with all the rot about JB being a danger it will remain in the interest of all those concerned to keep him where he is ( though he's never hurt anyone ) There's more danger on the streets right now.


 I HAVE to address the Marsham issue first!! This definitely IS about stuffing people full of untruths. It is EXACTLY as you said.  He, like countless other bio parents before him and since -although it's a moot point whether he ever had any rights back then as he and Jeremy's mother weren't married, at least, where he was concerned, not to each other- relinquished all rights over their child when they agreed to their adoption. In which case, it matters not a jot to anyone, least of all, the Establishment, that Jeremy was fathered by him, and as for him being a danger, won't that be something put forward by those who'd have us believe that he was fathered by a royal? It sounds rather like "The Man In The Iron Mask" to suggest "it will remain in the interest of all those concerned to keep him where he is". If "THEY" are really capable of such deviousness I'd have thought it would have been possible to persuade another prisoner -promise them new identity- to arrange for an 'accident' to happen. No more Jeremy. Problem over.

I'd be inclined to agree you re Sheila, had she lived. However, if we accept what is alleged is Jeremy's provenance, I don't think there'd have been a problem with sacrificing her. Indeed, IF Jeremy is who he's being hinted at as being, the Establishment would have made very certain that the case never got to court, at least, not with Jeremy as the accused.
Title: Re: Truth, The Whole Truth......Or That Which Others Want Us To Believe Is Truth
Post by: lookout on June 04, 2018, 02:55:PM
It certainly wouldn't be the first time that senior officers have been involved in corruption. They think they're untouchable and ironically it's true because nothing happens to them. They do what they do because they can.
It's happened in the Eddie Gilfoyle case where it's KNOWN that corruption played a part in his conviction yet nobody is dong anything about it despite Eddie being supported by police,parliamentarians you name it but he still hasn't been granted an appeal as the CCRC have stated as far as they're concerned everything was in order as they saw it after having gone through 5 years examining thousands of pages of evidence finally decided that there was no realistic chance of him ever being acquitted. This was in 2016.
Doesn't look too rosy for JB then if the CCRC have anything to do with it. Yet they're supposed to see into MOJ's ?? It's a joke !

I wonder if animosity played a part in Eddie's case too because of his bro-in-law being in the police service at the time ( different division ) It doesn't pay to be a match when confronting the police in case it shows more intelligence and common sense than they've got.??

 
Title: Re: Truth, The Whole Truth......Or That Which Others Want Us To Believe Is Truth
Post by: Jane on June 04, 2018, 03:03:PM
I did not say that, I used the Thorpe case to highlight the lengths the 'establishment' will go to, to protect its own  I  but that doesn't need to be a huge conspiracy.  I am simply saying cover ups happen and the Establishment which to me includes the Criminal Justice System and the Police are capable of going to any lengths if it's in their own interests.  Their interests can be as simple as covering up their own mistakes and incompetence to protecting politicians and beyond. Maybe they discovered they were right the first time and it had to be Sheila after all? How stupid was Stan Jones etc willing to look in public? It was accepted JB was the culprit let sleeping dogs lie and save their own skins. I don't claim to know the answer but it could be that simple.

I read you as presenting a case of the lengths the Establishment will go to in protecting it's own, and applied the possibility of them doing the same for anyone believed to be in a more elevated position. I understand that there are occasions where cover ups happen but if we start suspecting cover ups at every turn we risk paranoia, or just shelf sitting.
Title: Re: Truth, The Whole Truth......Or That Which Others Want Us To Believe Is Truth
Post by: Jane on June 04, 2018, 03:12:PM
It certainly wouldn't be the first time that senior officers have been involved in corruption. They think they're untouchable and ironically it's true because nothing happens to them. They do what they do because they can.
It's happened in the Eddie Gilfoyle case where it's KNOWN that corruption played a part in his conviction yet nobody is dong anything about it despite Eddie being supported by police,parliamentarians you name it but he still hasn't been granted an appeal as the CCRC have stated as far as they're concerned everything was in order as they saw it after having gone through 5 years examining thousands of pages of evidence finally decided that there was no realistic chance of him ever being acquitted. This was in 2016.
Doesn't look too rosy for JB then if the CCRC have anything to do with it. Yet they're supposed to see into MOJ's ?? It's a joke !

I wonder if animosity played a part in Eddie's case too because of his bro-in-law being in the police service at the time ( different division ) It doesn't pay to be a match when confronting the police in case it shows more intelligence and common sense than they've got.??

You see, this is an example of anti police mentality -no one is suggesting they're perfect. There are bad apples in every barrel- a blanket condemnation of police generally, it suggests another agenda. Perhaps you can tell us about the kind of system you think would be an improvement on the one we have?
Title: Re: Truth, The Whole Truth......Or That Which Others Want Us To Believe Is Truth
Post by: Caroline on June 04, 2018, 03:29:PM
Not necessarily would Sheila have been found guilty as even 30 odd years later it still remains to be an impossibility in the eyes of the law that a female murders all her family let alone any thought of it in 1985 so it's only natural that a male takes the wrap.
Sheila might just have been found guilty if all the facts had been presented but sadly they weren't. Colin would have best explained about Sheila's moods and behaviour especially when he wrote a pleading letter to Nevill telling him that it would be better for her and the boys if he,Colin,had them most of the time. I'd sensed Colin's concern but he'd had to choose his words carefully because it was Sheila's parents and if anyone knew what living with Sheila was like,it had been Colin.

Anyway as far as Marsham is concerned when he uttered about dis-owning or refusing knowledge of JB's existence ( didn't he forfeit/relinquish that when he handed him over as a baby ?) with all the rot about JB being a danger it will remain in the interest of all those concerned to keep him where he is ( though he's never hurt anyone ) There's more danger on the streets right now.

Where is that law written?

The boys were living with Colin and there had been no problems because of it.

I think Marsham's attitude was callous - but it runs in the family.
Title: Re: Truth, The Whole Truth......Or That Which Others Want Us To Believe Is Truth
Post by: maggie on June 04, 2018, 03:45:PM
I read you as presenting a case of the lengths the Establishment will go to in protecting it's own, and applied the possibility of them doing the same for anyone believed to be in a more elevated position. I understand that there are occasions where cover ups happen but if we start suspecting cover ups at every turn we risk paranoia, or just shelf sitting.
Maybe but I think we need to be aware that there is as much injustice in this country as elsewhere.  If we haven't experienced it personally we are lucky. Don't think it's paranoia to not blindly trust the system, much better to keep an open mind.  There are good and bad in all walk of life and the justice system is no different.
Title: Re: Truth, The Whole Truth......Or That Which Others Want Us To Believe Is Truth
Post by: lookout on June 04, 2018, 04:19:PM
You see, this is an example of anti police mentality -no one is suggesting they're perfect. There are bad apples in every barrel- a blanket condemnation of police generally, it suggests another agenda. Perhaps you can tell us about the kind of system you think would be an improvement on the one we have?




 
Seeing as the police are the bain of motorists lives perhaps it's of more importance if their time was spent more in apprehending the real criminals as it's recently been stated that police detection rates are abysmal.
Is it also necessary for the police to be present in their swarms outside pubs and clubs ? If there were two officers regularly patrolling certain areas then that would help keep the trouble down it's when they all come from nowhere and swoop in is when the trouble starts.
Bring back " Bobbies on the beat ".Another way of tackling crime is to be familiar with residents when patrolling their patches then officers can get an idea of who's troublesome. Whizzing around in cars is hardly the answer.
Re-training in spotting mental illness instead of using force during arrest. Same goes for diabetics who appear drunk when their blood sugar is low----besides them smelling of " pear-drops ".
I 've read in one area that a trained mental health nurse goes on duty with an officer. A brilliant idea.   
Title: Re: Truth, The Whole Truth......Or That Which Others Want Us To Believe Is Truth
Post by: Jane on June 04, 2018, 05:10:PM



 
Seeing as the police are the bain of motorists lives perhaps it's of more importance if their time was spent more in apprehending the real criminals as it's recently been stated that police detection rates are abysmal.
Is it also necessary for the police to be present in their swarms outside pubs and clubs ? If there were two officers regularly patrolling certain areas then that would help keep the trouble down it's when they all come from nowhere and swoop in is when the trouble starts.
Bring back " Bobbies on the beat ".Another way of tackling crime is to be familiar with residents when patrolling their patches then officers can get an idea of who's troublesome. Whizzing around in cars is hardly the answer.
Re-training in spotting mental illness instead of using force during arrest. Same goes for diabetics who appear drunk when their blood sugar is low----besides them smelling of " pear-drops ".
I 've read in one area that a trained mental health nurse goes on duty with an officer. A brilliant idea.

It sounds as if you're suggesting that because the police spend so much unnecessary? time on motorists it could be a reason for them not spending time in detecting and apprehending real criminals? I'm fairly certain that some of those motorists will be crims on the run, I'm also certain that those in uniform chasing motorists are a different breed from detectives and the two aren't necessarily interchangeable.
I don't know if it's necessary for police to be present in swarms outside pubs and clubs but if they get a tip off that there might be trouble, a lone policeman -or even two- would hardly be enough if there was.
"Bobbies on the beat" Hmm? Bring back the days when people had respect for them, eh? There are areas where it would be out of the question for them to walk around -unless, perhaps, you think they'd benefit from carrying guns?.................and let's say they manage to get these young -soon to be grown up- criminals to court. What then? I've seen my friend's late husband, on numerous occasions, come in from work and say "I don't know why I bother". He's taken a guilty youth into court for the umpteenth time only to have him let off after which he's turned round and smirked. Haven't you said, several times, Lookout, that you're always on your guard? Against what? The only stabs you're likely to get here are verbal. Came you really blame police for having a similar attitude as a defense mechanism.
I totally agree that there could be better training to recognize mental illnesses and diabetes.
Title: Re: Truth, The Whole Truth......Or That Which Others Want Us To Believe Is Truth
Post by: lookout on June 04, 2018, 05:22:PM
Where is that law written?

The boys were living with Colin and there had been no problems because of it.

I think Marsham's attitude was callous - but it runs in the family.






It's a fact rather than a law is it not ?
Title: Re: Truth, The Whole Truth......Or That Which Others Want Us To Believe Is Truth
Post by: Jane on June 04, 2018, 05:27:PM





It's a fact rather than a law is it not ?


I think you'll find that some Victorian women were hung for killing their children, poison being their method of choice.
Title: Re: Truth, The Whole Truth......Or That Which Others Want Us To Believe Is Truth
Post by: lookout on June 04, 2018, 05:47:PM
It sounds as if you're suggesting that because the police spend so much unnecessary? time on motorists it could be a reason for them not spending time in detecting and apprehending real criminals? I'm fairly certain that some of those motorists will be crims on the run, I'm also certain that those in uniform chasing motorists are a different breed from detectives and the two aren't necessarily interchangeable.
I don't know if it's necessary for police to be present in swarms outside pubs and clubs but if they get a tip off that there might be trouble, a lone policeman -or even two- would hardly be enough if there was.
"Bobbies on the beat" Hmm? Bring back the days when people had respect for them, eh? There are areas where it would be out of the question for them to walk around -unless, perhaps, you think they'd benefit from carrying guns?.................and let's say they manage to get these young -soon to be grown up- criminals to court. What then? I've seen my friend's late husband, on numerous occasions, come in from work and say "I don't know why I bother". He's taken a guilty youth into court for the umpteenth time only to have him let off after which he's turned round and smirked. Haven't you said, several times, Lookout, that you're always on your guard? Against what? The only stabs you're likely to get here are verbal. Came you really blame police for having a similar attitude as a defense mechanism.
I totally agree that there could be better training to recognize mental illnesses and diabetes.






I note that you take a dim view about bobbies on the beat ? There was nothing wrong with it in my time ? As for police being armed----God forbid.Even trained ones have been known to shoot the wrong person.
So because of your view on bobbies on the beat would mean that the streets are too dangerous ? Why do you think that is ?

Years ago we didn't have this PC crap and the hands of police officers and school-teachers weren't tied,but because of all the rules,regulations and extra paperwork it put a stop on good old discipline. Instead of a good old-fashioned cuff round the ears of a cheeky youth,out comes the notebook and a mouthful of abuse from the offender and before you know it there's a first class fight as one antagonises the other. Police also need to visit the homes/backgrounds of offenders.
 Teachers exclude a disruptive pupil ( which is music to the ears of the pupil ) instead of rapping him over the knuckles with a ruler  which hurts and above all humiliates him-----a lesson to be taught.Lack of a proper upbringing and respect makes criminals.

 
Title: Re: Truth, The Whole Truth......Or That Which Others Want Us To Believe Is Truth
Post by: Jane on June 04, 2018, 06:00:PM





I note that you take a dim view about bobbies on the beat ? There was nothing wrong with it in my time ? As for police being armed----God forbid.Even trained ones have been known to shoot the wrong person.
So because of your view on bobbies on the beat would mean that the streets are too dangerous ? Why do you think that is ?

Years ago we didn't have this PC crap and the hands of police officers and school-teachers weren't tied,but because of all the rules,regulations and extra paperwork it put a stop on good old discipline. Instead of a good old-fashioned cuff round the ears of a cheeky youth,out comes the notebook and a mouthful of abuse from the offender and before you know it there's a first class fight as one antagonises the other. Police also need to visit the homes/backgrounds of offenders.
 Teachers exclude a disruptive pupil ( which is music to the ears of the pupil ) instead of rapping him over the knuckles with a ruler  which hurts and above all humiliates him-----a lesson to be taught.Lack of a proper upbringing and respect makes criminals.

Where on EARTH did that come from!!!! In days when you were a child, the bobby on the beat was a first line of defense, If children went home and said a policeman had clipped them round the ear, they'd get another, not for being caught but for doing wrong. Back then, parents backed the police. I genuinely fear for the safety of bobbies on the beat these days -and I wouldn't want to see them armed any more than they want it- because parents seem to be giving children totally different guidelines, probably commensurate with "Do what you like as long as you don't get caught". Police and teachers alike have all had their hands tied and we're all seeing the results.
Title: Re: Truth, The Whole Truth......Or That Which Others Want Us To Believe Is Truth
Post by: lookout on June 04, 2018, 06:07:PM
Welcome to the Nanny State.
Title: Re: Truth, The Whole Truth......Or That Which Others Want Us To Believe Is Truth
Post by: Caroline on June 04, 2018, 06:47:PM





I note that you take a dim view about bobbies on the beat ? There was nothing wrong with it in my time ? As for police being armed----God forbid.Even trained ones have been known to shoot the wrong person.
So because of your view on bobbies on the beat would mean that the streets are too dangerous ? Why do you think that is ?

Years ago we didn't have this PC crap and the hands of police officers and school-teachers weren't tied,but because of all the rules,regulations and extra paperwork it put a stop on good old discipline. Instead of a good old-fashioned cuff round the ears of a cheeky youth,out comes the notebook and a mouthful of abuse from the offender and before you know it there's a first class fight as one antagonises the other. Police also need to visit the homes/backgrounds of offenders.
 Teachers exclude a disruptive pupil ( which is music to the ears of the pupil ) instead of rapping him over the knuckles with a ruler  which hurts and above all humiliates him-----a lesson to be taught.Lack of a proper upbringing and respect makes criminals.

So you think hitting someone makes them learn a lesson? It doesn't work with people or animals and it has nothing to do with political correctness.
Title: Re: Truth, The Whole Truth......Or That Which Others Want Us To Believe Is Truth
Post by: lookout on June 04, 2018, 06:53:PM
So you think hitting someone makes them learn a lesson? It doesn't work with people or animals and it has nothing to do with political correctness.






One thing for sure whatever was done to cause a slap wasn't done again------------cured !
Title: Re: Truth, The Whole Truth......Or That Which Others Want Us To Believe Is Truth
Post by: Jane on June 04, 2018, 06:57:PM
So you think hitting someone makes them learn a lesson? It doesn't work with people or animals and it has nothing to do with political correctness.


I can't imagine, if it's done publicly -and perhaps unjustly- that the feeling of humiliation ever goes further than just below the surface. It can result in uncontrollable rage.
Title: Re: Truth, The Whole Truth......Or That Which Others Want Us To Believe Is Truth
Post by: lookout on June 04, 2018, 07:01:PM

I can't imagine, if it's done publicly -and perhaps unjustly- that the feeling of humiliation ever goes further than just below the surface. It can result in uncontrollable rage.





It never used to. It's the way society is today,aggressive and hate-filled.
Title: Re: Truth, The Whole Truth......Or That Which Others Want Us To Believe Is Truth
Post by: lookout on June 04, 2018, 07:04:PM
Look at the amount of pupils who harm their teachers----------even killing them.Disgraceful.
Title: Re: Truth, The Whole Truth......Or That Which Others Want Us To Believe Is Truth
Post by: Jane on June 04, 2018, 07:09:PM




It never used to. It's the way society is today,aggressive and hate-filled.


It never used to seem to be. I don't know if that's quite the same thing, though.
Title: Re: Truth, The Whole Truth......Or That Which Others Want Us To Believe Is Truth
Post by: lookout on June 04, 2018, 07:16:PM
It never used to cause " uncontrollable rage "---------it must be built-in !!
Title: Re: Truth, The Whole Truth......Or That Which Others Want Us To Believe Is Truth
Post by: Caroline on June 04, 2018, 07:17:PM





One thing for sure whatever was done to cause a slap wasn't done again------------cured !

Really? Then I guess there was no crime before the 70's then? (Going by the Heartbeat period).
Title: Re: Truth, The Whole Truth......Or That Which Others Want Us To Believe Is Truth
Post by: Jane on June 04, 2018, 07:24:PM
It never used to cause " uncontrollable rage "---------it must be built-in !!

Just because you've never seen it doesn't indicate that it didn't exist.
Title: Re: Truth, The Whole Truth......Or That Which Others Want Us To Believe Is Truth
Post by: lookout on June 04, 2018, 07:34:PM
Really? Then I guess there was no crime before the 70's then? (Going by the Heartbeat period).





Not a lot of crime then as the population was about 20 million less than it is now.
Title: Re: Truth, The Whole Truth......Or That Which Others Want Us To Believe Is Truth
Post by: lookout on June 04, 2018, 07:38:PM
Just because you've never seen it doesn't indicate that it didn't exist.






People seemed to be more laid-back and dealt with things differently in their stride.
Title: Re: Truth, The Whole Truth......Or That Which Others Want Us To Believe Is Truth
Post by: Jane on June 04, 2018, 07:44:PM





People seemed to be more laid-back and dealt with things differently in their stride.

The key word is "seemed". The problem with anger is that it's often held in because people can sometimes feel ashamed of it. Again, it's relative. What makes some people explode will go over another's head.
Title: Re: Truth, The Whole Truth......Or That Which Others Want Us To Believe Is Truth
Post by: lookout on June 04, 2018, 07:49:PM
The key word is "seemed". The problem with anger is that it's often held in because people can sometimes feel ashamed of it. Again, it's relative. What makes some people explode will go over another's head.





Don't forget that TV was tame so no violence to set anyone off,also there weren't PC games either that have been blamed for violence in children. There was no ADHD ! Any " performances " resulted in a smacked behind.
Title: Re: Truth, The Whole Truth......Or That Which Others Want Us To Believe Is Truth
Post by: Jane on June 04, 2018, 08:02:PM




Don't forget that TV was tame so no violence to set anyone off,also there weren't PC games either that have been blamed for violence in children. There was no ADHD ! Any " performances " resulted in a smacked behind.

Oh! But what about "Tom Brown's School Days" and "Billy Bunter"? How cruel were they? FULL of bullies.
Title: Re: Truth, The Whole Truth......Or That Which Others Want Us To Believe Is Truth
Post by: lookout on June 04, 2018, 08:14:PM
Oh! But what about "Tom Brown's School Days" and "Billy Bunter"? How cruel were they? FULL of bullies.





They were about " peers " of which went on in most if not all public schools over the years--------and still does. Whether it was then recognised as bullying I don't know but the bullying today is by far different and comes in different forms which includes girls as well as boys.
Title: Re: Truth, The Whole Truth......Or That Which Others Want Us To Believe Is Truth
Post by: Jane on June 04, 2018, 08:16:PM




They were about " peers " of which went on in most if not all public schools over the years--------and still does. Whether it was then recognised as bullying I don't know but the bullying today is by far different and comes in different forms which includes girls as well as boys.

Whilst the action may not have had a description, the effects of such an action would undoubtedly have been felt.
Title: Re: Truth, The Whole Truth......Or That Which Others Want Us To Believe Is Truth
Post by: Caroline on June 04, 2018, 08:31:PM



 
Not a lot of crime then as the population was about 20 million less than it is now.

Well, there shouldn't be any if a good clip CURED delinquency? I don't believe borstal was too successful - maybe they didn't hit the inmates hard enough? Bloody PC brigade!  ;D ;D
Title: Re: Truth, The Whole Truth......Or That Which Others Want Us To Believe Is Truth
Post by: lookout on June 04, 2018, 08:40:PM
Well, there shouldn't be any if a good clip CURED delinquency? I don't believe borstal was too successful - maybe they didn't hit the inmates hard enough? Bloody PC brigade!  ;D ;D





The Army was the cure when there was still conscription.
Title: Re: Truth, The Whole Truth......Or That Which Others Want Us To Believe Is Truth
Post by: Jane on June 04, 2018, 08:51:PM




The Army was the cure when there was still conscription.

I recall hearing that they went in as boys and came out as men. I'm inclined to think it may have changed them for life.
Title: Re: Truth, The Whole Truth......Or That Which Others Want Us To Believe Is Truth
Post by: lookout on June 04, 2018, 09:03:PM
I recall hearing that they went in as boys and came out as men. I'm inclined to think it may have changed them for life.






It taught them discipline if nothing else. Though it might also have done good in most such as finding employment or furthering their career in the Army itself. It was a good thing really.
Title: Re: Truth, The Whole Truth......Or That Which Others Want Us To Believe Is Truth
Post by: lookout on June 04, 2018, 09:06:PM
I certainly don't know how we've got this " Dante's Inferno " of a world we have today.