Jeremy Bamber Forum

JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: mike tesko on October 03, 2018, 03:53:PM

Title: Cops seized Jeremy’s answer phone and five audio recording tapes....
Post by: mike tesko on October 03, 2018, 03:53:PM
Cops believed that Neville Bambers call to Jeremy might have been captured on one of the audio tapes...
Title: Re: Cops seized Jeremy’s answer phone and five audio recording tapes....
Post by: mike tesko on October 03, 2018, 03:55:PM
Cops believed that Neville Bambers call to Jeremy might have been captured on one of the audio tapes...

Results of the analysis were not disclosed...
Title: Re: Cops seized Jeremy’s answer phone and five audio recording tapes....
Post by: Adam on October 03, 2018, 05:47:PM
Mike did Jeremy turn his answering phone off every night before bed ?

Obviously he would not have reached the phone in time to answer Nevill's call, if the answering machine was on.
Title: Re: Cops seized Jeremy’s answer phone and five audio recording tapes....
Post by: mike tesko on October 03, 2018, 05:57:PM
I remember vividly discussing this aspect of the investigation with Jeremy when I was incarcerated with him on B Wing at HMP Full Sutton on several occasions during late 1989 and July 1990...

Jeremy said that he answered his phone after two or three rings when his father called him that morning!

He said therefore the automatic recording mechanism on his answer phone did not get activated! As such there would have been no recording what his father said to him! He said he told the police that he had answered the phone call quickly..

However, he also suspected that the police thought that if he had been the killer, that he might have telephoned his own house number, so that his answer machine had recorded the connection from the farmhouse, or a snippet of conversation that had been fraudulently disguised to sound like it had been his father who had made the call to him, when in fact he might have made the call to himself! We talked about the workability of such a theorey! I said if he had been the killer, at the house making a disguised call to himself, it would have been rubbished Almost immediately because Jeremy was supposed to have answered the call from his father, not recorded it on his answer machine! Jeremy said he thought the police were hoping to find a recording to usurp his account but that they didn't find anything or they would have used it against him! I got the clear impression that Jeremy hadn't tried to use his answer phone to prove the call he received from his father had in fact been made! In any event, the phones at white house farm and Jeremy's cottage at Head Street, Goldhanger were bugged and every phone call made and received at both locations were constantly being monitored under a telecommunications Act warrant - the drugs squad who had Jeremy and his cronies under surveillance, knew that a call had been made from white house farm to Jeremy's cottage, before Neville Bamber had made his call to Chelmsford police as per the phone log timed at 3.26am! I think the exercise of the cops seizing Jeremy's answer phone and five audio tapes was simply done for taking purposes, since Neville Bamber almost certainly phoned the police at 3.26am, some 10 minutes before Jeremy himself ended up phoning them at 3.36am...

I spent many a long hour puzzling over the phone call issue..

I took advice from BT engineers, one who was retired, another who was currently working for them...

Title: Re: Cops seized Jeremy’s answer phone and five audio recording tapes....
Post by: mike tesko on October 03, 2018, 06:00:PM
Mike did Jeremy turn his answering phone off every night before bed ?

Obviously he would not have reached the phone in time to answer Nevill's call, if the answering machine was on.

Jeremy told me he always left his answer phone on, day and night and that it had a timer setting which I think he said had about three different settings, I think the settings were time orientated to the best of my recollection!
Title: Re: Cops seized Jeremy’s answer phone and five audio recording tapes....
Post by: mike tesko on October 03, 2018, 06:21:PM

I spent many a long hour puzzling over the phone call issue..

I took advice from BT engineers, one who was retired, another who was currently working for them...

There were several contentious issues which I felt needed to be investigated and explained properly, some of these issues might have been misrepresented during Jeremy's trial!
Title: Re: Cops seized Jeremy’s answer phone and five audio recording tapes....
Post by: Adam on October 03, 2018, 06:27:PM
I remember vividly discussing this aspect of the investigation with Jeremy when I was incarcerated with him on B Wing at HMP Full Sutton on several occasions during late 1989 and July 1990...

Jeremy said that he answered his phone after two or three rings when his father called him that morning!

He said therefore the automatic recording mechanism on his answer phone did not get activated! As such there would have been no recording what his father said to him! He said he told the police that he had answered the phone call quickly..

However, he also suspected that the police thought that if he had been the killer, that he might have telephoned his own house number, so that his answer machine had recorded the connection from the farmhouse, or a snippet of conversation that had been fraudulently disguised to sound like it had been his father who had made the call to him, when in fact he might have made the call to himself! We talked about the workability of such a theorey! I said if he had been the killer, at the house making a disguised call to himself, it would have been rubbished Almost immediately because Jeremy was supposed to have answered the call from his father, not recorded it on his answer machine! Jeremy said he thought the police were hoping to find a recording to usurp his account but that they didn't find anything or they would have used it against him! I got the clear impression that Jeremy hadn't tried to use his answer phone to prove the call he received from his father had in fact been made! In any event, the phones at white house farm and Jeremy's cottage at Head Street, Goldhanger were bugged and every phone call made and received at both locations were constantly being monitored under a telecommunications Act warrant - the drugs squad who had Jeremy and his cronies under surveillance, knew that a call had been made from white house farm to Jeremy's cottage, before Neville Bamber had made his call to Chelmsford police as per the phone log timed at 3.26am! I think the exercise of the cops seizing Jeremy's answer phone and five audio tapes was simply done for taking purposes, since Neville Bamber almost certainly phoned the police at 3.26am, some 10 minutes before Jeremy himself ended up phoning them at 3.36am...

I spent many a long hour puzzling over the phone call issue..

I took advice from BT engineers, one who was retired, another who was currently working for them...

Thanks Mike. Yes it would have been the norm to leave an answering machine on 24/7. As it is now.

Two or three rings Mike ? He told the police he slept 'like a log' that night.

It would be at least 2 or 3 minutes before he woke, realised the phone was ringing, decided to answer it & went downstairs.
Title: Re: Cops seized Jeremy’s answer phone and five audio recording tapes....
Post by: mike tesko on October 03, 2018, 06:32:PM
There were several contentious issues which I felt needed to be investigated and explained properly, some of these issues might have been misrepresented during Jeremy's trial!

One such issue, concerned Jeremy's claim that after the phone line went dead at the conclusion of his father's call to him, Jeremy had stood steadfast in asserting that he tried to ring his father back several times, or a few times, but that he had got a constant engaged tone each time he had tried! Some people were suggesting that he wouldn't have been able to dial his father's telephone back until several minutes had elapsed, or that because the telephone handset of the telephone in the kitchen back at the farmhouse was off its cradle when cops eventually entered the kitchen hours later, that the line between the farmhouse and Jeremy's cottage at Goldhanger would have remained open continuously! In fact, all that would have been required, was for Neville Bamber to depress the cradle and within a very short space of time, he would have got a dialling tone and been able to make another call to somewhere else from the farmhouse! This was because the call was made from white house farm to 9 Head Street, Goldhanger! If Jeremy had tried to do the same thing in these circumstances he would not have got a dialling tone, or been able to make another call to anywhere else, or to anyone else, the line would have remained open each time he depressed the cradle of his own phone...

I was interested in why Jeremy was so adamant that each time he tried to ring his father back, how he kept saying that he kept getting a constant engaged tone, even though prosecution witnesses were saying that he couldn't have!

But...

As we shall see, Jeremy was telling the truth...
Title: Re: Cops seized Jeremy’s answer phone and five audio recording tapes....
Post by: mike tesko on October 03, 2018, 06:37:PM
Thanks Mike. Yes it would have been the norm to leave an answering machine on 24/7. As it is now.

Two or three rings Mike ? He told the police he slept 'like a log' that night.

It would be at least 2 or 3 minutes before he woke, realised the phone was ringing, decided to answer it & went downstairs.

My understanding, Adam was that he had a contemporary phone plugged in downstairs, and his answer phone on his bedside cabinet! I think that was one of the reasons why the cops seized the answer phone in the first instance, because Jeremy had answered the phone so quickly! He assured me that he had answered his father's call really quickly thinking that it might have been Julie Mugford' ringing him wanting more drugs to sell...
Title: Re: Cops seized Jeremy’s answer phone and five audio recording tapes....
Post by: Adam on October 03, 2018, 06:49:PM
My understanding, Adam was that he had a contemporary phone plugged in downstairs, and his answer phone on his bedside cabinet! I think that was one of the reasons why the cops seized the answer phone in the first instance, because Jeremy had answered the phone so quickly! He assured me that he had answered his father's call really quickly thinking that it might have been Julie Mugford' ringing him wanting more drugs to sell...

Thanks Mike. So Jeremy answered his phone in bed.

I thought Julie was not able to dial out from her home phone ?
Title: Re: Cops seized Jeremy’s answer phone and five audio recording tapes....
Post by: mike tesko on October 03, 2018, 06:52:PM

I was interested in why Jeremy was so adamant that each time he tried to ring his father back, how he kept saying that he kept getting a constant engaged tone, even though prosecution witnesses were saying that he couldn't have!

But...

As we shall see, Jeremy was telling the truth...

I was reliably informed that because Neville Bamber had instigated the call to Jeremy, that all Neville Bamber had to do was depress the cradle of the phone only once and that this would cut the connection between white house farm and Jeremy at his cottage! As soon as Neville did this he would eventually get a dialling tone in the handset back at White House farm! There might have been a slight delay before Neville actually got a fresh dialling tone but the upshot of this was that once Neville got a fresh dialling tone, he could dial a different number - he in fact, called the police station at Witham, and because there was no one on hand to take his call, his call was switched by the automatic switching system and he was put through to the control room at Chelmsford police station, the time he actually got out through to them was at 3.26am...

Now..

From Jeremy's perspective, no sooner did the call he was receiving get cut off, than Jeremy is frantically trying to re-establish contact with his father at white house farm. He gets a dialling tone after depressing the cradle of his own phone and he dials his father's number at white house farm, but gets a constant engaged tone, suggesting that his father is talking to somebody else, or trying to phone Jeremy back! It is irrelevant whether or not back at White House farm, Neville not only has got a dialling tone, or whether he had already dialled the telephone number of Witham police station, or even if his call there was already switched by the automatic out of hours call switch system that diverted his call to the control room at Chelmsford police station by 3.26am, at each step of the way every time Jeremy attempted to re-establish contact with his father he would always get an engaged tone, a constant engaged tone, and this is precisely what Jeremy had always been maintaining before his trial, during his trial, and afterwards, despite prosecution witnesses and the prosecutor claiming that it couldn't have happened like he said it did and had...

They were wrong, and Jeremy was right!
Title: Re: Cops seized Jeremy’s answer phone and five audio recording tapes....
Post by: mike tesko on October 03, 2018, 06:54:PM
Thanks Mike. So Jeremy answered his phone in bed.

I thought Julie was not able to dial out from her home phone ?

She used a pay phone on the occasions she needed to contact him, close to her bedsit...
Title: Re: Cops seized Jeremy’s answer phone and five audio recording tapes....
Post by: mike tesko on October 03, 2018, 06:57:PM
I was still not entirely happy with what I had managed to find out from the two telephone engineers I received technical information from about the states of the telephones, and who could do what, this, that or the other - I wanted to know as much as possible about what could have made Neville Bambers call to his son, Jeremy go dead...
Title: Re: Cops seized Jeremy’s answer phone and five audio recording tapes....
Post by: mike tesko on October 03, 2018, 06:59:PM
I was still not entirely happy with what I had managed to find out from the two telephone engineers I received technical information from about the states of the telephones, and who could do what, this, that or the other - I wanted to know as much as possible about what could have made Neville Bambers call to his son, Jeremy go dead...

They wanted to know what type of telephone was being used by Neville Bamber back at White House farm at the time his call was made to Jeremy when it was supposed to have gone dead, and been cut off abruptly?

I said that as far as I am aware the phone in question was a round finger dial phone!
Title: Re: Cops seized Jeremy’s answer phone and five audio recording tapes....
Post by: mike tesko on October 03, 2018, 07:00:PM
They wanted to know what type of telephone was being used by Neville Bamber back at White House farm at the time his call was made to Jeremy when it was supposed to have gone dead, and been cut off abruptly?

I said that as far as I am aware the phone in question was a round finger dial phone!

Ooooh, I was told...
Title: Re: Cops seized Jeremy’s answer phone and five audio recording tapes....
Post by: mike tesko on October 03, 2018, 07:02:PM
Ooooh, I was told...

Now, that was a different kettle of fish they both told me independently of eachother...

How do you know it was a round finger dial type telephone?

I said I had a crime scene photograph of it, it had been photographed on the kitchen worktop, it had its handset off its cradle...
Title: Re: Cops seized Jeremy’s answer phone and five audio recording tapes....
Post by: Adam on October 03, 2018, 07:05:PM
She used a pay phone on the occasions she needed to contact him, close to her bedsit...

Julie was keen. Lewisham is not a very safe place late at night.

Did Julie mention drugs to Jeremy when he called her that evening around 10pm ?
Title: Re: Cops seized Jeremy’s answer phone and five audio recording tapes....
Post by: mike tesko on October 03, 2018, 07:14:PM
Now, that was a different kettle of fish they both told me independently of eachother...

How do you know it was a round finger dial type telephone?

I said I had a crime scene photograph of it, it had been photographed on the kitchen worktop, it had its handset off its cradle...

Could I provide a view of the kitchen round finger dial phone?

Yes I said...

Here is a similar image that I provided to them both...
Title: Re: Cops seized Jeremy’s answer phone and five audio recording tapes....
Post by: mike tesko on October 03, 2018, 07:24:PM
I eventually received information concerning the fact that the plungers of round finger dial telephones were prone to sticking in the downward position - when this happens anyone on the receiving end of such a call will be cut off, where the line simply goes dead! This is the equivalent of somebody placing a hand or a finger on the plungers and holding it in the downward position without any opportunity for the plunger to spring back up!
Title: Re: Cops seized Jeremy’s answer phone and five audio recording tapes....
Post by: mike tesko on October 03, 2018, 07:25:PM
I eventually received information concerning the fact that the plungers of round finger dial telephones were prone to sticking in the downward position - when this happens anyone on the receiving end of such a call will be cut off, where the line simply goes dead! This is the equivalent of somebody placing a hand or a finger on the plungers and holding it in the downward position without any opportunity for the plunger to spring back up!

By reference to the crime scene image I had provided, it appeared that the plungers of the round finger dial phone had not been stuck in the downward position!
Title: Re: Cops seized Jeremy’s answer phone and five audio recording tapes....
Post by: mike tesko on October 03, 2018, 07:30:PM
This, I was told suggested that either, (a) the caller from white house farm had depressed the plunger and temporarily held it down, thus creating the cut off, line went dead, affect, or (b) a totally different type of phone was used to make the call from the farmhouse to Jeremy's cottage, where (a)  the caller from white house farm had depressed the plunger and temporarily held it down, thus creating the cut off, line went dead, affect...
Title: Re: Cops seized Jeremy’s answer phone and five audio recording tapes....
Post by: mike tesko on October 03, 2018, 07:43:PM
This, I was told suggested that either, (a) the caller from white house farm had depressed the plunger and temporarily held it down, thus creating the cut off, line went dead, affect, or (b) a totally different type of phone was used to make the call from the farmhouse to Jeremy's cottage, where (a)  the caller from white house farm had depressed the plunger and temporarily held it down, thus creating the cut off, line went dead, affect...

Of course, I did not concern myself with informing Jeremy of my research...

However, I was mindful of the fact that the round finger dial telephone was normally plugged in at a socket in the parents main bedroom, and that a digital telephone was normally plugged in at the kitchen socket!
Title: Re: Cops seized Jeremy’s answer phone and five audio recording tapes....
Post by: mike tesko on October 03, 2018, 07:47:PM
Of particular interest to me, was the fact the the digital telephone normally plugged in at the kitchen socket, was subsequently discovered under a pile of magazines in the kitchen, and that by the time PC Bird started taking his crime scene photographs downstairs in the kitchen, shows the main bedroom round finger dial telephone plugged in at the kitchen socket, and not in the main bedroom where it was normally plugged in at..
Title: Re: Cops seized Jeremy’s answer phone and five audio recording tapes....
Post by: mike tesko on October 03, 2018, 07:49:PM
Of particular interest to me, was the fact the the digital telephone normally plugged in at the kitchen socket, was subsequently discovered under a pile of magazines in the kitchen, and that by the time PC Bird started taking his crime scene photographs downstairs in the kitchen, shows the main bedroom round finger dial telephone plugged in at the kitchen socket, and not in the main bedroom where it was normally plugged in at..

Being the diligent inquisitive person that I am, I am mindful of the following...
Title: Re: Cops seized Jeremy’s answer phone and five audio recording tapes....
Post by: mike tesko on October 03, 2018, 07:51:PM
Being the diligent inquisitive person that I am, I am mindful of the following...

It is well documented, that at 8.15am, a police radio message was passed which requested DCI Harris, to contact ACC Peter Simpson at his home address, using a landline from the scene...
Title: Re: Cops seized Jeremy’s answer phone and five audio recording tapes....
Post by: mike tesko on October 03, 2018, 10:04:PM
It is well documented, that at 8.15am, a police radio message was passed which requested DCI Harris, to contact ACC Peter Simpson at his home address, using a landline from the scene...

Which land line telephone did DCI Harris use to make the requested call to ACC Peter Simpson?
Title: Re: Cops seized Jeremy’s answer phone and five audio recording tapes....
Post by: mike tesko on October 03, 2018, 10:15:PM
My view, is that the round fingered dial phone was brought downstairs so that Harris could make his call to ACC Peter Simpson, after 8.15am, and that by this stage the body of Sheila Caffell was already removed from the kitchen, albeit the police at this stage did not know the actual whereabouts of Sheila Caffell, as a result of her body having gone missing from the kitchen, downstairs!
Title: Re: Cops seized Jeremy’s answer phone and five audio recording tapes....
Post by: mike tesko on October 03, 2018, 10:19:PM
 Please. Don't shoot me I am only the Messenger - but the cops are responsible for manipulating the location and the positioning of Sheila's body after it had gone missing!

Title: Re: Cops seized Jeremy’s answer phone and five audio recording tapes....
Post by: mike tesko on October 04, 2018, 11:06:AM
My view, is that the round fingered dial phone was brought downstairs so that Harris could make his call to ACC Peter Simpson, after 8.15am, and that by this stage the body of Sheila Caffell was already removed from the kitchen, albeit the police at this stage did not know the actual whereabouts of Sheila Caffell, as a result of her body having gone missing from the kitchen, downstairs!
I believe the round finger dial phone was plugged in at the main bedroom socket when the firearms team entered the farmhouse, and that at some stage after 8.15am, the round finger dial telephone was unplugged and brought downstairs and plugged into the kitchen socket, after the digital phone was unplugged by police from the kitchen socket...

This being evidence that the cops faked the crime scene in the kitchen, because had any phone had its handset off its cradle it must have been the digital telephone, not the round finger dialled phone!
Title: Re: Cops seized Jeremy’s answer phone and five audio recording tapes....
Post by: mike tesko on October 04, 2018, 11:08:AM
I believe the round finger dial phone was plugged in at the main bedroom socket when the firearms team entered the farmhouse, and that at some stage after 8.15am, the round finger dial telephone was unplugged and brought downstairs and plugged into the kitchen socket, after the digital phone was unplugged by police from the kitchen socket...

This being evidence that the cops faked the crime scene in the kitchen, because had any phone had its handset off its cradle it must have been the digital telephone, not the round finger dialled phone!
As far as is known, these digital telephones, did not have the same problems with the plunger, as round finger dial telephones..
Title: Re: Cops seized Jeremy’s answer phone and five audio recording tapes....
Post by: mike tesko on October 04, 2018, 11:10:AM
As far as is known, these digital telephones, did not have the same problems with the plunger, as round finger dial telephones..

This factor cannot be over emphasized..
Title: Re: Cops seized Jeremy’s answer phone and five audio recording tapes....
Post by: mike tesko on October 04, 2018, 11:13:AM
We know is that DCI Harris was requested to use a landline phone at the scene to make contact with ACC Peter Simpson at home, to update him as to the situation at and by 8.15am, because police documentation confirms this to be true!

However..

What we are not informed about, was the nature of that conversation, albeit we know that the call lasted at least 15 minutes...
Title: Re: Cops seized Jeremy’s answer phone and five audio recording tapes....
Post by: mike tesko on October 04, 2018, 11:16:AM
Essex police know what was being spoken about during this 15 minute conversation between DCI Harris and ACC Peter Simpson, because, remember, the phones at white house farm were being constantly monitored by the drug squad based at Southend on Sea...
Title: Re: Cops seized Jeremy’s answer phone and five audio recording tapes....
Post by: mike tesko on October 04, 2018, 12:52:PM
Essex police know what was being spoken about during this 15 minute conversation between DCI Harris and ACC Peter Simpson, because, remember, the phones at white house farm were being constantly monitored by the drug squad based at Southend on Sea...

The conversations between DCI Harris and ACC Peter Simpson, which took place during this 15 minute long period (8.15am until 8.30am) define the role the cops at the scene played in the death of Sheila Caffell upstairs in the main bedroom! Harris told Simpson that Sheila's body had disappeared from the kitchen and that until around 8.30am, the whereabouts of her body was unknown despite the fact that by around 8.10am five bodies had already been reportedly found (two bodies downstairs and three bodies upstairs)!
Title: Re: Cops seized Jeremy’s answer phone and five audio recording tapes....
Post by: mike tesko on October 04, 2018, 12:54:PM
The conversations between DCI Harris and ACC Peter Simpson, which took place during this 15 minute long period (8.15am until 8.30am) define the role the cops at the scene played in the death of Sheila Caffell upstairs in the main bedroom! Harris told Simpson that Sheila's body had disappeared from the kitchen and that until around 8.30am, the whereabouts of her body was unknown despite the fact that by around 8.10am five bodies had already been reportedly found (two bodies downstairs and three bodies upstairs)!

In a nutshell, cops had nothing to do with the displacement of Sheila's body from the kitchen downstairs, to the main bedroom upstairs!
Title: Re: Cops seized Jeremy’s answer phone and five audio recording tapes....
Post by: mike tesko on October 04, 2018, 01:00:PM
In a nutshell, cops had nothing to do with the displacement of Sheila's body from the kitchen downstairs, to the main bedroom upstairs!

What this serves to confirm, even to the dumbnest of people, was that Sheila Caffell was not dead, and that she did not die by way of the second shot (bullet PV/19) until an occasion after DCI Harris started conversing with ACC Simpson at 8.15am on the round finger dial telephone which was brought downstairs into the kitchen and plugged in there at the kitchen socket, where the digital telephone had previously been plugged in! Cops unplugged the digital kitchen phone and put it to one side, and cops plugged the round finger dial main bedroom phone into the kitchen plug socket downstairs for the purpose of Harris phoning Simpson to update him, via landline, as requested!
Title: Re: Cops seized Jeremy’s answer phone and five audio recording tapes....
Post by: mike tesko on October 04, 2018, 01:04:PM
What this serves to confirm, even to the dumbnest of people, was that Sheila Caffell was not dead, and that she did not die by way of the second shot (bullet PV/19) until an occasion after DCI Harris started conversing with ACC Simpson at 8.15am on the round finger dial telephone which was brought downstairs into the kitchen and plugged in there at the kitchen socket, where the digital telephone had previously been plugged in! Cops unplugged the digital kitchen phone and put it to one side, and cops plugged the round finger dial main bedroom phone into the kitchen plug socket downstairs for the purpose of Harris phoning Simpson to update him, via landline, as requested!

The round finger dial telephone was never examined, for the presence of blood, or fingerprints because that wasn't the telephone with its handset off its cradle on the kitchen worktop when the firearm officers first entered the kitchen of the farmhouse, the digital telephone was...
Title: Re: Cops seized Jeremy’s answer phone and five audio recording tapes....
Post by: mike tesko on October 04, 2018, 01:06:PM
The second shot to Sheila's neck (bullet PV/19) had not already been inflicted at any stage between 7.35am and 8.10am, otherwise Sheila's body would have remained downstairs in the kitchen, from 8.10am onwards..
Title: Re: Cops seized Jeremy’s answer phone and five audio recording tapes....
Post by: mike tesko on October 04, 2018, 01:08:PM
The second shot to Sheila's neck (bullet PV/19) had not already been inflicted at any stage between 7.35am and 8.10am, otherwise Sheila's body would have remained downstairs in the kitchen, from 8.10am onwards..

Remember what the pathologist said about the consequences to Sheila Caffell's life, once bullet PV/19 had been received into her neck? She would have died instantaneously!
Title: Re: Cops seized Jeremy’s answer phone and five audio recording tapes....
Post by: mike tesko on October 04, 2018, 01:11:PM
It must follow, therefore, that at some time after 8.10am when Sheila Caffell's body was one of the two bodies downstairs in the kitchen, that she was shot on the second occasion, and more importantly that she sustained that second fatal shot at some point after she arrived upstairs in the main bedroom, and not a moment sooner!!!
Title: Re: Cops seized Jeremy’s answer phone and five audio recording tapes....
Post by: mike tesko on October 04, 2018, 01:19:PM
It must follow, therefore, that at some time after 8.10am when Sheila Caffell's body was one of the two bodies downstairs in the kitchen, that she was shot on the second occasion, and more importantly that she sustained that second fatal shot at some point after she arrived upstairs in the main bedroom, and not a moment sooner!!!

According to the police surgeon, Dr Craig Sheila had what appeared to be a gunshot wound to her neck when he viewed her body 'on the far side of the bed' at 8.44am...

By the time DS Jones and DC Clark visited the main bedroom after 9.05am, Sheila's body was laid on top of the bed' in the main bedroom, alongside the body of June Bamber! Sheila had only one bullet entry wound to her neck by that stage! There was a rifle laid on the bed in-between both bodies, and Sheila had a Bible (not a rifle) on her chest!

So, here is the evidence, which confirms that Sheila did not receive the all-important second shot to her neck, the shot that killed her, until after Jones and Clark left the main bedroom to go with Jeremy Bamber to his cottage for the purpose of obtaining a witness statement from him!

Jeremy Bamber, never entered the farmhouse at any stage after his arrival there at 3.52am - from that point onwards he was always constantly in the company of police officers either in the grounds of the farmhouse, in Pages Lane, or the police car CA07..
Title: Re: Cops seized Jeremy’s answer phone and five audio recording tapes....
Post by: mike tesko on October 04, 2018, 01:23:PM
With this in mind, how was it at all possible, for Jeremy to have shot and killed his sister and then staged her death scene there on the main bedroom floor, to fool police into thinking and accepting that Sheila had shot and killed the other four victims of the family, and then taken her own life by shooting herself dead by way of the second shot to her own neck (bullet PV/19)?
Title: Re: Cops seized Jeremy’s answer phone and five audio recording tapes....
Post by: mike tesko on October 04, 2018, 01:35:PM
With this in mind, how was it at all possible, for Jeremy to have shot and killed his sister and then staged her death scene there on the main bedroom floor, to fool police into thinking and accepting that Sheila had shot and killed the other four victims of the family, and then taken her own life by shooting herself dead by way of the second shot to her own neck (bullet PV/19)?

Jeremy Bamber has the perfect alibi, provided by PC Collins and PC Delgado who peered into the Laundry room window and reported that they could see Sheila Caffell's body! Next when the six man raid team entered the kitchen and reported that there were two bodies present there in the kitchen, the second body being Sheila Caffell, forget that her death was being spoken about in terms of it being a suicide for now, because Sheila was not dead during any stage of the period between 7.35am and 8.10am, and rather more significantly Sheila's body was not upstairs at all until some point after 8.10am! Jeremy is Alibi'd by these events! He is also Alibi'd by the as yet undisclosed contents of Conversation over the telephone between DCI Harris and ACc Simpson which took place between 8.15am and 8.30am! Next, Jeremy is Alibi'd by the testimony of the police surgeon, Dr Craig who had Sheila Caffell's body 'on the far side of the bed' at 8.44am at a time when she only had one bullet entry wound to her neck! Then, as if any of the aforementioned Alibi's weren't sufficient enough to prove his innocence, he has the benefit of being Alibi'd by DS Jones and DC Clark who saw Sheila's body laid on top of the bed next to the body of June Bamber, with a rifle resting on the bed, inbetween both bodies. Sheila had a Bible on her chest by that stage (not the rifle) and she had only been shot once to her neck by around 9.05am...
Title: Re: Cops seized Jeremy’s answer phone and five audio recording tapes....
Post by: mike tesko on October 04, 2018, 01:37:PM
There is more..
Title: Re: Cops seized Jeremy’s answer phone and five audio recording tapes....
Post by: mike tesko on October 04, 2018, 01:39:PM
There is more..

Because for some reason or other senior officers and firearm officers took part in a training exercise ('informatives'), but they all refuse to say what they had been doing during this training exercise - Jeremy Bamber is Alibi'd by their actions throughout this period (9.00am to 10.00am)...
Title: Re: Cops seized Jeremy’s answer phone and five audio recording tapes....
Post by: David1819 on October 04, 2018, 10:50:PM
Cops believed that Neville Bambers call to Jeremy might have been captured on one of the audio tapes...

Mike. If the police did recover such tapes and if what JM was saying is true then they would have found a blank message on one of those tapes.

JM claimed that Jeremy called his cottage via WHF to show a call happened. This can only be done if the answer machine picks up the phone on the other end.

IIRC JM mentioned it was done to be logged in the features of the phone. Yet the kitchen phone or bedroom phone had no such feature . Unbeknown to Julie and Anne Eaton, The wireless phone with such feature usually in the kitchen was out for repairs during the night of the shootings.
Title: Re: Cops seized Jeremy’s answer phone and five audio recording tapes....
Post by: mike tesko on October 04, 2018, 11:05:PM
Mike. If the police did recover such tapes and if what JM was saying is true then they would have found a blank message on one of those tapes. such a blank message would have got a time against it..

JM claimed that Jeremy called his cottage via WHF to show a call happened. This can only be done if the answer machine picks up the phone on the other end. it would have been pointless Jeremy doing that, considering that he states that he answered his father's call, and that his father told him things during that call - I can't see Jeremy making a call to himself so that his answer machine only recorded a blank message...

IIRC JM mentioned it was done to be logged in the features of the phone. Yet the kitchen phone or bedroom phone had no such feature . Unbeknown to Julie and Anne Eaton, The wireless phone with such feature usually in the kitchen was out for repairs during the night of the shootings. My understanding, was that a replacement phone was left at Whitehouse Farm when the hands-free phone broke down and was taken away for repair!
Title: Re: Cops seized Jeremy’s answer phone and five audio recording tapes....
Post by: David1819 on October 04, 2018, 11:18:PM
it would have been pointless Jeremy doing that, considering that he states that he answered his father's call, and that his father told him things during that call - I can't see Jeremy making a call to himself so that his answer machine only recorded a blank message...

Not pointless at all because in the police interviews Jeremy asks them to check with the telecom company records.
Title: Re: Cops seized Jeremy’s answer phone and five audio recording tapes....
Post by: mike tesko on October 05, 2018, 09:24:AM
Not pointless at all because in the police interviews Jeremy asks them to check with the telecom company records. yes, but he wouldn't have contacted the police at 3.36am on the morning of the tragedy, and told the police what his father had said to him, before the line inexplicably went dead, had he been the killer at the Farmhouse and telephone is home address to record a blank message on the tape on his answer phone! He would effectively have been setting himself up for a fall. Since, any recorded message without the words which is father had spoken during that call...
Title: Re: Cops seized Jeremy’s answer phone and five audio recording tapes....
Post by: mike tesko on October 05, 2018, 09:29:AM
If my recollection serves me correctly, I also seem to think or remember something in connection with the discovery of the kitchen phone beneath a pile of magazines in the corner of the kitchen, which was found by the housekeeper I believe..

Jeremy till the housekeeper that it was a spare telephone that had been left in replacement of the other non-working phone that had been taken away...
Title: Re: Cops seized Jeremy’s answer phone and five audio recording tapes....
Post by: mike tesko on October 05, 2018, 09:37:AM
If my recollection serves me correctly, I also seem to think or remember something in connection with the discovery of the kitchen phone beneath a pile of magazines in the corner of the kitchen, which was found by the housekeeper I believe..

Jeremy till the housekeeper that it was a spare telephone that had been left in replacement of the other non-working phone that had been taken away...

In fact, when Jeremy told me this I was a little confused myself, because at the time of the shooting tragedy the hands-free phone which was not working had been taken away for repair, which I understood to be a mobile phone! Whereas, the telephone that was found beneath a pile of magazines in the kitchen was a digital telephone which the house keeper had said was normally plugged in at the kitchen socket? However, Jeremy went on to explain to me, that the original kitchen phone which was a digital telephone unit, had been damaged during a lightning strike beforehand, and that the original digital Kitchen telephone had being taken away and in its place had been left the digital telephone that was found underneath the magazines in the corner of the kitchen!

Jeremy had told the housekeeper that that phone was a spare one!

Therefore, what Jeremy was saying and did say to the housekeeper was in fact correct!

In a nutshell, the housekeeper was correct in saying that the digital telephone that she found concealed beneath a pile of magazines in the corner of the kitchen was normally plugged in at the kitchen socket! Perhaps what the housekeeper did or did not know and which was not spoken about in her witness statement regarding whether or not she was referring to that telephone being the last digital telephone that was plugged in at the kitchen socket, or it was the digital telephone which had always  been plugged in at the kitchen socket? In other words, the housekeeper appears not to have spoken about a replacement digital telephone which had been provided to the family as a result of a lightning strike which damaged the original digital telephone that used to be plugged in at the kitchen socket!
Title: Re: Cops seized Jeremy’s answer phone and five audio recording tapes....
Post by: mike tesko on October 05, 2018, 09:45:AM

In a nutshell, the housekeeper was correct in saying that the digital telephone that she found concealed beneath a pile of magazines in the corner of the kitchen was normally plugged in at the kitchen socket! Perhaps what the housekeeper did or did not know and which was not spoken about in her witness statement regarding whether or not she was referring to that telephone being the last digital telephone that was plugged in at the kitchen socket, or it was the digital telephone which had always  been plugged in at the kitchen socket? In other words, the housekeeper appears not to have spoken about a replacement digital telephone which had been provided to the family as a result of a lightning strike which damaged the original digital telephone that used to be plugged in at the kitchen socket!

This sort of confusion arises when a police officer who is taking a person's witness statement decides what is going to be written in the witness statement, and uses his or her own language to paraphrase something a witness might have said or not!
Title: Re: Cops seized Jeremy’s answer phone and five audio recording tapes....
Post by: mike tesko on October 05, 2018, 09:48:AM
As far as I'm concerned, it is irrelevant whether or not the digital phone that was found under a pile of magazines in the corner of the kitchen, was the original digital telephone that was struck by lightning, or it's replacement, because I believe that that particular digital telephone was plugged in at the kitchen socket at the time of these shooting tragedies, and as I understood it, it had a last 10 number dialled memory facility!
Title: Re: Cops seized Jeremy’s answer phone and five audio recording tapes....
Post by: mike tesko on October 05, 2018, 09:54:AM
As far as I'm concerned, it is irrelevant whether or not the digital phone that was found under a pile of magazines in the corner of the kitchen, was the original digital telephone that was struck by lightning, or it's replacement, because I believe that that particular digital telephone was plugged in at the kitchen socket at the time of these shooting tragedies, and as I understood it, it had a last 10 number dialled memory facility!

But for DCI Harris needing to make a landline telephone call to ACC Simpson, as requested at around 8:15 am, that digital telephone would have still been plugged in at the kitchen socket when the crime scene photographs and video were taken later on! I believe that it was the handset of the digital telephone that was off its cradle in the kitchen on the kitchen worktop, I'm not the round fingered I'll phone which was normally plugged in upstairs in the master bedroom! I believe that the digital telephone wasn't plugged by the police in the kitchen and subsequently the round finger dial telephone from upstairs in the master bedroom was unplugged and brought downstairs so that DCI Harris could make a landline call to ACC Simpson, a call which lasted some 15 minutes in duration until 8:30 am, or thereabouts! Once Harris had completed his call to Simpson, he simply left the handset off the hook and resting on the kitchen worktop where it was later photographed!

The digital telephone which the police unplugged was subsequently hidden beneath some magazines in the corner of the kitchen!
Title: Re: Cops seized Jeremy’s answer phone and five audio recording tapes....
Post by: mike tesko on October 05, 2018, 09:56:AM

The digital telephone which the police unplugged was subsequently hidden beneath some magazines in the corner of the kitchen!

Jeremy knows my views on this..

Since, we had many a candid discussion about whether or not the last ten number dialled memory facility of that digital telephone would still be recoverable once the telephone itself had been unplugged and set aside?
Title: Re: Cops seized Jeremy’s answer phone and five audio recording tapes....
Post by: mike tesko on October 05, 2018, 10:00:AM
Jeremy knows my views on this..

Since, we had many a candid discussion about whether or not the last ten number dialled memory facility of that digital telephone would still be recoverable once the telephone itself had been unplugged and set aside?

I did not have it confirmed to me one way or the other by any of the BT engineer's who I had access to, that the last 10 dialled telephone number memory facility might still be recoverable in those circumstances! Did the digital Statesman telephone have its own internal battery that in the event of it being unplugged, or a power cut, that it retained the last 10 dialled telephone numbers?

I tended to suspect it did...
Title: Re: Cops seized Jeremy’s answer phone and five audio recording tapes....
Post by: mike tesko on October 05, 2018, 10:08:AM
If not, then the action of the police who unplugged the digital Statesman telephone from its kitchen socket were responsible for loosing that valuable evidence, because there is no doubt that if Neville Bamber had telephoned Jeremy, as claimed by Jeremy, and then Neville Bamber had called the police at 3.26am, both of these telephone numbers would have been recorded in the phones last ten numbers dialled memory facility! Furthermore, the fact that by 5.55am the state of the telephone line at the farmhouse became altered from being off the hook, into it being continuously engaged, which at 6.09am the line was patched through by the operator to the control room at Chelmsford police station using a '999' call system - if someone had dialled '999' from within the farmhouse at that time, the evidence would have been recorded in the last ten numbers dialled memory facility!
Title: Re: Cops seized Jeremy’s answer phone and five audio recording tapes....
Post by: mike tesko on October 05, 2018, 10:12:AM
What I did find out from the BT engineers, was that when the digital telephone was plugged in at the kitchen socket downstairs, and with the round finger dial phone plugged in upstairs in the master bedroom, was that if someone dialled a telephone number from the round finger dial telephone upstairs, that the number dialled would not be recorded automatically in the digital telephones memory, downstairs!
Title: Re: Cops seized Jeremy’s answer phone and five audio recording tapes....
Post by: mike tesko on October 05, 2018, 10:24:AM
As far as I'm concerned, the question of the last ten number dialled memory facility of the digital statesman telephone that was normally plugged in at the kitchen socket, and the fact that the police took an interest in Jeremy Bamber answer phone back at his Cottage at 9 Head Street, Goldhanger, were inextricably linked as part of the police investigation, once the nature of the investigation altered from one of four murders and a suicide, and became one of five murders!

I believe that Essex Police obtained the last 10 telephone numbers dialled from the memory of the statesman digital telephone, and that it was confirmed that a call had been made from White House Farm to Jeremy's Cottage at 9 Head Street, Goodhanger, followed by a call to Witham police station (3.26am), and a '999' call (5.55am) requesting an ambulance! I believe that all this evidence was deliberately withheld under pii, and that Essex police seized Jeremy's answer phone and corresponding audio tapes hoping to discover a blank message, and thus be able to disprove that his father had called him, but that he had called himself knowing that the number he had dialled would be recorded in the memory of the digital Statesman telephone!
Title: Re: Cops seized Jeremy’s answer phone and five audio recording tapes....
Post by: mike tesko on October 05, 2018, 10:35:AM

I believe that Essex Police obtained the last 10 telephone numbers dialled from the memory of the statesman digital telephone, and that it was confirmed that a call had been made from White House Farm to Jeremy's Cottage at 9 Head Street, Goodhanger, followed by a call to Witham police station (3.26am), and a '999' call (5.55am) requesting an ambulance! I believe that all this evidence was deliberately withheld under pii, and that Essex police seized Jeremy's answer phone and corresponding audio tapes hoping to discover a blank message, and thus be able to disprove that his father had called him, but that he had called himself knowing that the number he had dialled would be recorded in the memory of the digital Statesman telephone!

Cops discounted interest in Jeremy's answer phone, and the corresponding audio tapes, once they found no blank messages on any of them, they didn't even find any evidence on any of the five audio tapes, that the answer machine had been turned off!

And..

They knew that either Neville Bamber, or someone purporting to be him, had contacted the police at 3.26am, by dialling the telephone number of Witham police station, which got put through to the control room at Chelmsford police station via the automated out of hours or unavailable service mechanism, and that a message had been passed, 'Daughter gone berserk ', and 'daughter has got hold of one of my guns'...

Additionally, police had confirmation that somebody inside white house farm had dialled '999' requesting an ambulance - obviously, that person who made that call, (that request) could not have been Jeremy Bamber because from 3.52am (onwards) he had been outside in the company of the police constantly!
Title: Re: Cops seized Jeremy’s answer phone and five audio recording tapes....
Post by: mike tesko on October 05, 2018, 10:39:AM

They knew that either Neville Bamber, or someone purporting to be him, had contacted the police at 3.26am, by dialling the telephone number of Witham police station, which got put through to the control room at Chelmsford police station via the automated out of hours or unavailable service mechanism, and that a message had been passed, 'Daughter gone berserk ', and 'daughter has got hold of one of my guns'...


This was why cops thought that someone else other than Jeremy Bamber had been responsible for the shootings, an accomplice of Sheila's and Jeremy if you like!
Title: Re: Cops seized Jeremy’s answer phone and five audio recording tapes....
Post by: mike tesko on October 05, 2018, 10:45:AM
This was why cops thought that someone else other than Jeremy Bamber had been responsible for the shootings, an accomplice of Sheila's and Jeremy if you like!

Cops thought that a hit man, had telephoned Jeremy from white house farm, and told him a prearranged message, purporting to have been said by Jeremy's father to Jeremy! As soon as the message had been passed, and received, the hit man had cut the connection off by simply depressing the cradle or simply replacing the handset upon the two plungers then immediately picking up the handset and then dialling the telephone number for Witham police station, knowing that at that time of morning the local station might not be manned, and that the call would be automatically put through to the control room at Chelmsford police station, whereupon the hit man had recited a previously arranged narrative, 'Daughter gone berserk ', and 'My daughter has got hold of one of my guns'...
Title: Re: Cops seized Jeremy’s answer phone and five audio recording tapes....
Post by: mike tesko on October 05, 2018, 10:52:AM
Cops thought that a hit man, had telephoned Jeremy from white house farm, and told him a prearranged message, purporting to have been said by Jeremy's father to Jeremy! As soon as the message had been passed, and received, the hit man had cut the connection off by simply depressing the cradle or simply replacing the handset upon the two plungers then immediately picking up the handset and then dialling the telephone number for Witham police station, knowing that at that time of morning the local station might not be manned, and that the call would be automatically put through to the control room at Chelmsford police station, whereupon the hit man had recited a previously arranged narrative, 'Daughter gone berserk ', and 'My daughter has got hold of one of my guns'...

Cops suspected that once the message had been received from white house farm, that Jeremy knew that the accomplice would have contacted the police, so after a momentarily delay, cops thought that Jeremy had also then tried to contact Witham police station but could not get through, because the out of hours service was already in use which caused Jeremy's call not to be answered by anyone at Witham police station! Then Jeremy telephoned Julie Mugford at 3.30am and told her that there was something wrong at home, and that he didn't know what to do, and she had simply told him to go back to bed!
Title: Re: Cops seized Jeremy’s answer phone and five audio recording tapes....
Post by: mike tesko on October 05, 2018, 10:56:AM
Cops believed that it had been planned by Jeremy, Sheila and their accomplice, for Jeremy to wait a good 10 minutes after receiving the distress call from white house farm, before Jeremy would telephone Chelmsford police station (3.36am) directly, and report what he claimed his father had managed to say to him , 'Sheila has got the gun, she is going CRAZY', and 'come quickly'..
Title: Re: Cops seized Jeremy’s answer phone and five audio recording tapes....
Post by: mike tesko on October 05, 2018, 11:01:AM
What looms large out of the contents of both police phone log contents, is the manner with which whoever was responsible for passing both of these messages, some 10 minutes a part (3.26am and 3.36am), the contents of both are recorded as a one sided conversation:-

(3.26am) - 'Daughter gone berserk ' and 'My daughter has got hold of one of my guns' (Neville Bamber to police)?

(3.36am) - 'Sheila has got the gun' and 'she is going CRAZY' (Jeremy Bamber to police)..
Title: Re: Cops seized Jeremy’s answer phone and five audio recording tapes....
Post by: mike tesko on October 05, 2018, 11:05:AM
What looms large out of the contents of both police phone log contents, is the manner with which whoever was responsible for passing both of these messages, some 10 minutes a part (3.26am and 3.36am), the contents of both are recorded as a one sided conversation:-

(3.26am) - 'Daughter gone berserk ' and 'My daughter has got hold of one of my guns' (Neville Bamber to police)?

(3.36am) - 'Sheila has got the gun' and 'she is going CRAZY' (Jeremy Bamber to police)..

For the purpose of being specific, Jeremy told police during his 3.36am call, what his father had said to him (before Neville phoned the police) prior to his father contacting the police at 3.26am!
Title: Re: Cops seized Jeremy’s answer phone and five audio recording tapes....
Post by: mike tesko on October 05, 2018, 01:49:PM
For the purpose of being specific, Jeremy told police during his 3.36am call, what his father had said to him (before Neville phoned the police) prior to his father contacting the police at 3.26am!

So...

'Sheila has got the gun' and 'she is going CRAZY', and 'come quickly', were the words spoken by Neville Bamber to Jeremy, followed by 'Daughter gone berserk ', and 'she has got hold of one of my guns', when Neville Bamber telephoned police at 3.26am...
Title: Re: Cops seized Jeremy’s answer phone and five audio recording tapes....
Post by: mike tesko on October 05, 2018, 02:05:PM
So...

'Sheila has got the gun' and 'she is going CRAZY', and 'come quickly', were the words spoken by Neville Bamber to Jeremy, followed by 'Daughter gone berserk ', and 'she has got hold of one of my guns', when Neville Bamber telephoned police at 3.26am. This in turn, was followed by Jeremy phoning Julie Mugford', telling her, 'there's something wrong at home, and I don't know what to do'? Julie responded by saying to him, 'Go back to bed' and that Jeremy had then telephoned Chelmsford police station himself, at 3.36am telling them, that he had received a telephone call from his father, Neville Bamber at white house farm, telling him that, Sheila has got the gun' and 'She is going CRAZY' and for him to Come Quickly'.

PC West had told Jeremy that police officers had already been deployed to the incident (in real time they had been deployed there prior to Jeremy alerting the police about the telephone call from his father - police deployed to incident at 3.35am, Jeremy's call to police was timed at 3.36am), and PC West asked the operator to check the line at white house farm in view of Jeremy stating that every time he tried to ring his father back at the farm from his cottage in Head Street, Goldhanger, that he kept getting a constant engaged tone. The operator confirmed at 3.42am, that the phone line was engaged at that time! In any event, PC West asked Jeremy to go to white house farm where he would be met by police officers who were already on their way there! Jeremy wanted to be picked up by the police and taken to the farmhouse, but he was told to make his own way there, and told that if he arrived at the incident before the police got there, that under no circumstances was he to approach the farmhouse alone!
Title: Re: Cops seized Jeremy’s answer phone and five audio recording tapes....
Post by: Adam on October 06, 2018, 10:27:AM
Mike. If the police did recover such tapes and if what JM was saying is true then they would have found a blank message on one of those tapes.

JM claimed that Jeremy called his cottage via WHF to show a call happened. This can only be done if the answer machine picks up the phone on the other end.

IIRC JM mentioned it was done to be logged in the features of the phone. Yet the kitchen phone or bedroom phone had no such feature . Unbeknown to Julie and Anne Eaton, The wireless phone with such feature usually in the kitchen was out for repairs during the night of the shootings.

Have you got a source that Bambef had a bedroom phone

Bamber may have rang his cottage from WHF. Believing BT may have a record of what calls are made from a home phone. He only needed to let the phone ring a couple of times before hanging up & didn't need the answering machine to come on.
Title: Re: Cops seized Jeremy’s answer phone and five audio recording tapes....
Post by: Adam on October 07, 2018, 08:33:AM
PC West had told Jeremy that police officers had already been deployed to the incident (in real time they had been deployed there prior to Jeremy alerting the police about the telephone call from his father - police deployed to incident at 3.35am, Jeremy's call to police was timed at 3.36am), and PC West asked the operator to check the line at white house farm in view of Jeremy stating that every time he tried to ring his father back at the farm from his cottage in Head Street, Goldhanger, that he kept getting a constant engaged tone. The operator confirmed at 3.42am, that the phone line was engaged at that time! In any event, PC West asked Jeremy to go to white house farm where he would be met by police officers who were already on their way there! Jeremy wanted to be picked up by the police and taken to the farmhouse, but he was told to make his own way there, and told that if he arrived at the incident before the police got there, that under no circumstances was he to approach the farmhouse alone!

Mike have you got a source that Jeremy had a bedroom phone ?
Title: Re: Cops seized Jeremy’s answer phone and five audio recording tapes....
Post by: mike tesko on October 07, 2018, 12:36:PM
Have you got a source that Bambef had a bedroom phone

Bamber may have rang his cottage from WHF. Believing BT may have a record of what calls are made from a home phone. He only needed to let the phone ring a couple of times before hanging up & didn't need the answering machine to come on.

BT could find out if a call of any sorts had been made from white house farm to Jeremy's cottage by checking equipment housed at the local exchange building. The equipment involved were meters which ordinarily racked up units which effectively were relied upon for calculating a customer's individual bill. I understand that it was possible for an engineer to be able to establish the length / duration of individual calls which had been made within the overall units which had been used, but this required a visit to the local exchange station for such work to be carried out by a qualified engineer!
Title: Re: Cops seized Jeremy’s answer phone and five audio recording tapes....
Post by: David1819 on October 07, 2018, 04:44:PM
Have you got a source that Bambef had a bedroom phone


I was reffering to the bedroom phone at WHF.


Bamber may have rang his cottage from WHF. Believing BT may have a record of what calls are made from a home phone. He only needed to let the phone ring a couple of times before hanging up & didn't need the answering machine to come on.

Yes you do. The answering machine takes the call. If JB thinks the telecom can log the calls then just ringing with no answer will not help because that would show Jeremy didn't pick up the phone.
Title: Re: Cops seized Jeremy’s answer phone and five audio recording tapes....
Post by: Adam on October 07, 2018, 05:29:PM
I was reffering to the bedroom phone at WHF.


Yes you do. The answering machine takes the call. If JB thinks the telecom can log the calls then just ringing with no answer will not help because that would show Jeremy didn't pick up the phone.

Ok so it is just Mike who says in reply 8 that Bamber had his answer phone on his bedside cabinet.

No source had been supplied & to be fair Mike has just said 'my understanding is'. It has to be assummed the phone & answering machine were downstairs together, as always said.

So it's still impossible for Bamber to wake, realise the phone was ringing, decide whether to answer it, get up & go downstairs, within the 2/3 rings Mike is saying.

Bamber would have rang his cottage if he thought he needed to. I have no idea if he did in 1985.
Title: Re: Cops seized Jeremy’s answer phone and five audio recording tapes....
Post by: Caroline on October 07, 2018, 06:15:PM
I was reffering to the bedroom phone at WHF.


Yes you do. The answering machine takes the call. If JB thinks the telecom can log the calls then just ringing with no answer will not help because that would show Jeremy didn't pick up the phone.

If he thought they could log the calls, the last thing he would do would be to call his house from WHF because, if they could log them (which they couldn't), they could time stamp them too. This would scupper his plans because there would be a big difference between the time of the call and his call to the police - even longer than the one that exists now.
Title: Re: Cops seized Jeremy’s answer phone and five audio recording tapes....
Post by: mike tesko on October 07, 2018, 06:55:PM
If he thought they could log the calls, the last thing he would do would be to call his house from WHF because, if they could log them (which they couldn't), they could time stamp them too. This would scupper his plans because there would be a big difference between the time of the call and his call to the police - even longer than the one that exists now.

If Jeremy had been the killer, all he would have done is use the digital phone which was normally plugged in at the kitchen socket, dial his own number to his cottage, which would have been the last call made from white house farm, in its last 10 numbers dialled memory facility) not counting of course the 3.26am call made from white house farm to the police (which he would have to account for somehow)...
Title: Re: Cops seized Jeremy’s answer phone and five audio recording tapes....
Post by: Steve_uk on October 07, 2018, 08:55:PM
If Jeremy had been the killer, all he would have done is use the digital phone which was normally plugged in at the kitchen socket, dial his own number to his cottage, which would have been the last call made from white house farm, in its last 10 numbers dialled memory facility) not counting of course the 3.26am call made from white house farm to the police (which he would have to account for somehow)...
I think that may have been his original plan.
Title: Re: Cops seized Jeremy’s answer phone and five audio recording tapes....
Post by: David1819 on October 07, 2018, 11:43:PM
If he thought they could log the calls, the last thing he would do would be to call his house from WHF because, if they could log them (which they couldn't), they could time stamp them too. This would scupper his plans because there would be a big difference between the time of the call and his call to the police - even longer than the one that exists now.


That only applies in the bike or walk home version of events. If he thought they could log the calls then he would have to make the call happen. Either by using a car to drive back (does not need to be his car) or before he leaves WHF and shooting his parents and the twins he then instucts Sheila to call him at Goldhanger at 3:30am. Then while on the phone JB instructs Sheila to shoot herself.
Title: Re: Cops seized Jeremy’s answer phone and five audio recording tapes....
Post by: Caroline on October 08, 2018, 12:21:AM
If Jeremy had been the killer, all he would have done is use the digital phone which was normally plugged in at the kitchen socket, dial his own number to his cottage, which would have been the last call made from white house farm, in its last 10 numbers dialled memory facility) not counting of course the 3.26am call made from white house farm to the police (which he would have to account for somehow)...
He was the killer but show me the evidence that the Statesman phone (normally plugged into the kitchen socket) had the facility to store 10 numbers?
Title: Re: Cops seized Jeremy’s answer phone and five audio recording tapes....
Post by: mike tesko on October 08, 2018, 08:57:AM

That only applies in the bike or walk home version of events. If he thought they could log the calls then he would have to make the call happen. Either by using a car to drive back (does not need to be his car) or before he leaves WHF and shooting his parents and the twins he then instucts Sheila to call him at Goldhanger at 3:30am. Then while on the phone JB instructs Sheila to shoot herself.

But - Sheila didn't shoot herself dead twice with the same rifle and end up like shown in the second lot of photographs taken at the scene!

She didn't shoot herself..

Her death scene was staged as to suggest that she could have taken her own life, but she didn't and she couldn't have!

She was definitely shot by bullets fired from two different weapons, where the original PV/20 was fired from one gun, and the second PV/19 bullet was fired from the anshuzt rifle!

Her body did not fall naturally into the position her body was eventually photographed in, without her body having been on its right hand side for a considerable period beforehand!

Sheila's right arm and her right hand would have been trapped beneath or under the right hand side of her body at that time, and therefore, she still couldn't  have been holding onto the rifle, and it still be being grasped with her right hand resting flat on top of the gun once her body was rolled back onto its back! Not only that /this the rifle end up resting on top of her body with the muzzle of the guns barrell resting on so perfectly close to both bullet entry wounds on her neck!
Title: Re: Cops seized Jeremy’s answer phone and five audio recording tapes....
Post by: mike tesko on October 08, 2018, 09:16:AM
But - Sheila didn't shoot herself dead twice with the same rifle and end up like shown in the second lot of photographs taken at the scene!

She didn't shoot herself..

Her death scene was staged as to suggest that she could have taken her own life, but she didn't and she couldn't have!

She was definitely shot by bullets fired from two different weapons, where the original PV/20 was fired from one gun, and the second PV/19 bullet was fired from the anshuzt rifle!

Her body did not fall naturally into the position her body was eventually photographed in, without her body having been on its right hand side for a considerable period beforehand!

Sheila's right arm and her right hand would have been trapped beneath or under the right hand side of her body at that time, and therefore, she still couldn't  have been holding onto the rifle, and it still be being grasped with her right hand resting flat on top of the gun once her body was rolled back onto its back! Not only that /this the rifle end up resting on top of her body with the muzzle of the guns barrell resting on so perfectly close to both bullet entry wounds on her neck!

Somebody staged her death scene, and afterwards her body was photographed in the position it had been staged!
Title: Re: Cops seized Jeremy’s answer phone and five audio recording tapes....
Post by: mike tesko on October 08, 2018, 09:18:AM
Somebody staged her death scene, and afterwards her body was photographed in the position it had been staged!

Whoever staged Sheila's death scene there on the main bedroom floor, knew that she had been shot by two different guns!
Title: Re: Cops seized Jeremy’s answer phone and five audio recording tapes....
Post by: mike tesko on October 08, 2018, 09:29:AM
Whoever staged Sheila's death scene there on the main bedroom floor, knew that she had been shot by two different guns!

I can't accept that someone like Jeremy Bamber who was supposed to have carried out almost the perfect murders, would stage his sister's body on the main bedroom floor in possession of only one of the two rifles he must have shot her with, and think that the police wouldn't find out that Sheila had been shot twice, once with one gun, and on a second with the anshuzt rifle!  C'mon of course the cops would have found out that Sheila had been shot by two different guns, so why would somebody like Bamber stage his sister's body there on the bedroom floor, as a suicide and stand a cat in hells chance of getting away with it?
Title: Re: Cops seized Jeremy’s answer phone and five audio recording tapes....
Post by: mike tesko on October 08, 2018, 09:34:AM
I can't accept that someone like Jeremy Bamber who was supposed to have carried out almost the perfect murders, would stage his sister's body on the main bedroom floor in possession of only one of the two rifles he must have shot her with, and think that the police wouldn't find out that Sheila had been shot twice, once with one gun, and on a second with the anshuzt rifle!  C'mon of course the cops would have found out that Sheila had been shot by two different guns, so why would somebody like Bamber stage his sister's body there on the bedroom floor, as a suicide and stand a cat in hells chance of getting away with it?

Once cops found out that Sheila had been shot with use of two different weapons, then there are going to be interested in the location of every other firearm that was found at the scene, and test fire everyone of them until they establish the identity of the second weapon used...

The closest .22 rifle to the main bedroom where Sheila's body was stage managed by her killer(s), was downstairs in the kitchen!
Title: Re: Cops seized Jeremy’s answer phone and five audio recording tapes....
Post by: mike tesko on October 08, 2018, 09:43:AM
Once cops found out that Sheila had been shot with use of two different weapons, then there are going to be interested in the location of every other firearm that was found at the scene, and test fire everyone of them until they establish the identity of the second weapon used...

The closest .22 rifle to the main bedroom where Sheila's body was stage managed by her killer(s), was downstairs in the kitchen!

Well, we know there was a rifle captured in one of the crime scene photographs taken downstairs in the kitchen! We also know that in the police file exists an instruction to all police officers who entered the seige at the farmhouse that morning, for them not make mention of this rifle in their notes, pocketbook entries, or reports! Well, this kind of draws specific attention to this second rifle! Since, not only was it photographed downstairs in the kitchen, but based upon the fact that Sheila's body was dead in the kitchen by a reliance upon the police radio message log contents which were passed between 7.35am and 8.10am, it suggests very strongly indeed, that cops knew that this mysterious rifle which was captured in a crime scene photograph taken downstairs in the kitchen, was the second rifle used in the shooting of Sheila Caffell! All that is required, is for that particular photograph to be obtained or granted access to, and then that rifle can be identified!

We would then have the identity of the two rifles used in the shootings of Sheila Caffell..
Title: Re: Cops seized Jeremy’s answer phone and five audio recording tapes....
Post by: mike tesko on October 08, 2018, 09:44:AM
If Jeremy Bamber was the killer, he would have known that he had shot his sister with use of the two different rifles!
Title: Re: Cops seized Jeremy’s answer phone and five audio recording tapes....
Post by: mike tesko on October 08, 2018, 09:49:AM
If Jeremy Bamber was the killer, he would have known that he had shot his sister with use of the two different rifles!

In those / these cirmstances I doubt very much that he would have staged his sister's death there on the bedroom floor in possession of just one of those two rifles!
Title: Re: Cops seized Jeremy’s answer phone and five audio recording tapes....
Post by: mike tesko on October 08, 2018, 09:51:AM
In those / these cirmstances I doubt very much that he would have staged his sister's death there on the bedroom floor in possession of just one of those two rifles!

I doubt very much that if he had been the killer, he could count on the police to conceal the involvement of that second rifle, in the way that Essex police set about doing concerning the rifle which was captured in one of the crime scene photographs taken downstairs in the kitchen?
Title: Re: Cops seized Jeremy’s answer phone and five audio recording tapes....
Post by: mike tesko on October 08, 2018, 10:00:AM
I doubt very much that if he had been the killer, he could count on the police to conceal the involvement of that second rifle, in the way that Essex police set about doing concerning the rifle which was captured in one of the crime scene photographs taken downstairs in the kitchen?

There is also the matter of the powers that be interfering with one of the two bullets recovered from Sheila's body during autopsy - exhibit PV/20 which started off as a small piece of a badly fragmented bullet when it was recovered by the pathologist, but by 20th September 1985, it had become transformed into a WHOLE BULLET, which enabled the prosecution's ballistic expert, Malcolm Fletcher, to conclude that 'it' and the other bullet, had been fired from the same gun, the anshuzt rifle?

I bet Jeremy couldn't believe his luck when the powers that be were making out the case for Sheila's death being a one gun crime!
Title: Re: Cops seized Jeremy’s answer phone and five audio recording tapes....
Post by: mike tesko on October 08, 2018, 10:13:AM
What I say is important here, is the fact that cops appear to have gone out of their way to turn these shootings into a one gun crime, despite them knowing that in Sheila's case she had been shot by two different rifles! Moreover, that the cops knew the locations where both rifles had been found (at one time or another), but have deliberately set out to conceal the location of the second rifle (downstairs in the kitchen)! It is not just a coincidence that Sheila's was the second body reported / confirmed as being present in the kitchen as per the contents of timed police radio messages (7.35am - 8.10am), or that by 8.10am there were only three bodies found upstairs!

Cops wouldn't have gone to all this trouble, if somebody else had been responsible for shooting Sheila Caffell..

Sheila did not shoot herself, Jeremy Bamber did not shoot her, she was not shot by a hitman - if she had been cops wouldn't have gone to all the trouble they did to turn her death into a one gun crime!