Jeremy Bamber Forum

FOYER => Foyer => Topic started by: Lucy522 on February 01, 2017, 09:43:PM

Title: Hi
Post by: Lucy522 on February 01, 2017, 09:43:PM
Hi I've been on here a couple of weeks and thought I'd introduce myself I'm 30 a mum of 4 wife and personal trainer, , I've always been interested in this case, I grew up in Maldon and stabled my horses at darcy when I was younger I often rode past White House farm and my father told me what happened there,  my dad was a journalist for the county standard at the time of the murders, I'm still flitting back and forth between innocent and guilty :-/
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: susan on February 01, 2017, 09:52:PM
Hi I've been on here a couple of weeks and thought I'd introduce myself I'm 30 a mum of 4 wife and personal trainer, , I've always been interested in this case, I grew up in Maldon and stabled my horses at darcy when I was younger I often rode past White House farm and my father told me what happened there,  my dad was a journalist for the county standard at the time of the murders, I'm still flitting back and forth between innocent and guilty :-/

Hi Lucy

welcome to the forum look forward to your views on the case :)
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: Lucy522 on February 01, 2017, 09:56:PM
Well I know a lot of people round here think he's innocent, some things make no sense to me especially the 2 bodies which was actually one?? And the movement inside the house, I don't believe mugfords statement for a second, (hell hath no fury like a woman scorned)
What side do you lean towards?
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: Caroline on February 03, 2017, 11:39:AM
Well I know a lot of people round here think he's innocent, some things make no sense to me especially the 2 bodies which was actually one?? And the movement inside the house, I don't believe mugfords statement for a second, (hell hath no fury like a woman scorned)
What side do you lean towards?

Welcome Lucy! I certainly don't think he's innocent. There are simple explanations for the points you have mentioned, these things have just been twisted in order to form a conspiracy. I used to believe them myself.

I don't believe all that Julie said, I think she left a LOT out BUT I do believe the gist. There was no reason to invent the hit man from her side if she wanted to get back at Jeremy and I believe he told her about the hit man because he knew it could be discredited and her along with it if she went to the police.
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: Lucy522 on February 03, 2017, 10:44:PM
Hi Caroline, I've never thought of it like that before, more food for thought, what's the one piece of evidence that makes you think guilty the most?
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: Steve_uk on February 03, 2017, 11:48:PM
Hi Caroline, I've never thought of it like that before, more food for thought, what's the one piece of evidence that makes you think guilty the most?
Lucy welcome to the Forum, though this is an introduction thread, the hors d'oeuvres if you will, not the plat principal. Might I suggest you read Wikipedia to start:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_House_Farm_murders

and work your way through some of the threads:

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=2787.0

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1119.0.html
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: Lucy522 on February 04, 2017, 07:08:PM
Hi Steve I've read a lot of the threads over the past months and googled loads,  just been reading the raid team statements, some of the theories though are just so ludicrous, what's your views on it,??
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: Steve_uk on February 04, 2017, 07:35:PM
Hi Steve I've read a lot of the threads over the past months and googled loads,  just been reading the raid team statements, some of the theories though are just so ludicrous, what's your views on it,??
I don't believe in the huge conspiracy which would have to have taken place for Bamber to be innocent. I suggest you start a thread of your own and people will contribute, I assure you.
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: Lucy522 on February 04, 2017, 08:19:PM
I'm scared I'll get lynched  ::)
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: lookout on February 05, 2017, 02:54:PM
Lucy,as a matter of interest,do you still live in Essex ?
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: Lucy522 on February 05, 2017, 09:31:PM
Lucy,as a matter of interest,do you still live in Essex ?
Yes lookout I do I grew up in Maldon my parents are still there, I now live near Chelmsford
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: lookout on February 05, 2017, 10:01:PM
Yes lookout I do I grew up in Maldon my parents are still there, I now live near Chelmsford




Okay,thankyou.
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: Lucy522 on February 05, 2017, 10:10:PM



Okay,thankyou.
Any reason you ask?. I was just reading a thread on how apparently the twins were shot once each then gun reloaded, I don't think that's true in the autopsy report one of the twins was shot 5 times in a crescent shape, obviously in quick succession so the thought of going back just isn't working for me?. What do you think? .
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: lookout on February 06, 2017, 11:52:AM
Any reason you ask?. I was just reading a thread on how apparently the twins were shot once each then gun reloaded, I don't think that's true in the autopsy report one of the twins was shot 5 times in a crescent shape, obviously in quick succession so the thought of going back just isn't working for me?. What do you think? .




Hi Lucy,I'd realised after that I'd got the area wrong as it was Witham that I was thinking of and not Maldon. It's not unusual for me to get confused now and again.

Re.the twins,the shots were frenzied,one shot following another,apart from one which was between the eyes,the same as June had received,which to me showed hatred,even towards an innocent child. Awful. Sickening.
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: Lucy522 on February 06, 2017, 03:04:PM



Hi Lucy,I'd realised after that I'd got the area wrong as it was Witham that I was thinking of and not Maldon. It's not unusual for me to get confused now and again.

Re.the twins,the shots were frenzied,one shot following another,apart from one which was between the eyes,the same as June had received,which to me showed hatred,even towards an innocent child. Awful. Sickening.
So the theory they were shot once and then the killer reloaded is nonsense, I still can't work out who would of been shot first, we have 4 boys under 11 and I know gunshots would certainly wake them up, I think they were shot first, I think Sheila is guilty, the overkill with the children seems personal to me,  I really can't see Jeremy committing such a heinous crime, I really think she finally snapped and the children went first,  maybe a case of "if I can't have them no one can" just a thought?. What's your take lookout?.
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: lookout on February 06, 2017, 04:47:PM
So the theory they were shot once and then the killer reloaded is nonsense, I still can't work out who would of been shot first, we have 4 boys under 11 and I know gunshots would certainly wake them up, I think they were shot first, I think Sheila is guilty, the overkill with the children seems personal to me,  I really can't see Jeremy committing such a heinous crime, I really think she finally snapped and the children went first,  maybe a case of "if I can't have them no one can" just a thought?. What's your take lookout?.





Well there's never been any doubt in my mind that Jeremy is wholly innocent,and yes,Sheila,in a fit of rage,gunned them all down.
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: Steve_uk on February 06, 2017, 08:01:PM
Any reason you ask?. I was just reading a thread on how apparently the twins were shot once each then gun reloaded, I don't think that's true in the autopsy report one of the twins was shot 5 times in a crescent shape, obviously in quick succession so the thought of going back just isn't working for me?. What do you think? .
I don't suppose it really matters to Colin in what manner Jeremy killed his boys. An arc pattern was noted, which suggests someone with knowledge of how guns work, not a recovering anorexic with Tardive Dyskinesia trying to manage her schizophrenia and coping as best she could at weekends, which the children looked forward to and guarded jealously.
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: Lucy522 on February 06, 2017, 09:24:PM
I don't suppose it really matters to Colin in what manner Jeremy killed his boys. An arc pattern was noted, which suggests someone with knowledge of how guns work, not a recovering anorexic with Tardive Dyskinesia trying to manage her schizophrenia and coping as best she could at weekends, which the children looked forward to and guarded jealously.
Steve would quick succession in firing produce an arc at close range?  And no I don't suppose it does I can't imagine as a parent what he went/goes through,. It gives me goosebumps just thinking about it, I can't get my head round why, if it was Jeremy then why didn't her shoot the dog he's been verbal in his hatred towards it, I don't think any of us will ever know the truth.
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: Lucy522 on February 06, 2017, 09:27:PM




Well there's never been any doubt in my mind that Jeremy is wholly innocent,and yes,Sheila,in a fit of rage,gunned them all down.
I do believe it was Sheila, i just can't get my head around the sequence of events,  what do you think happened lookout,?.
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: Steve_uk on February 06, 2017, 09:36:PM
Steve would quick succession in firing produce an arc at close range?  And no I don't suppose it does I can't imagine as a parent what he went/goes through,. It gives me goosebumps just thinking about it, I can't get my head round why, if it was Jeremy then why didn't her shoot the dog he's been verbal in his hatred towards it, I don't think any of us will ever know the truth.
Well his attitude towards the dog became clear several hours later. A Sheila in psychosis was never a threat to anyone but herself, though to an untrained eye like Dorothy Brencher it might have appeared so. To my mind the arc pattern is Jeremy testing the gun, or he could have given the twins one shot each to paralyse and return after the shooting in the master bedroom, where Nevill was the chief threat.
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: Lucy522 on February 06, 2017, 09:47:PM
Well his attitude towards the dog became clear several hours later. A Sheila in psychosis was never a threat to anyone but herself, though to an untrained eye like Dorothy Brencher it might have appeared so. To my mind the arc pattern is Jeremy testing the gun, or he could have given the twins one shot each to paralyse and return after the shooting in the master bedroom, where Nevill was the chief threat.
Steve, I clearly know nothing about rifles, when a shot is fired would u just carry on pulling the trigger and it would keep firing until the magazine was empty,?.  Do you know what is haunting me right now, the fact that they may have been awakened and scared at the commotion thus stayed in bed with one sucking their thumb, I feel sick writing that,
I don't think they were shot first though, I think the biggest threat (Neville) would of at least been incapacitated first, but then why would he phone Jeremy and not 999!? Was there ever a call recorded from whf to the police?
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: Steve_uk on February 06, 2017, 09:50:PM
Steve, I clearly know nothing about rifles, when a shot is fired would u just carry on pulling the trigger and it would keep firing until the magazine was empty,?.  Do you know what is haunting me right now, the fact that they may have been awakened and scared at the commotion thus stayed in bed with one sucking their thumb, I feel sick writing that,
I don't think they were shot first though, I think the biggest threat (Neville) would of at least been incapacitated first, but then why would he phone Jeremy and not 999!? Was there ever a call recorded from whf to the police?
There was a call which Jeremy made from White House Farm to his answerphone at Bourtree Cottage at Goldhanger. It might have been made on the blue telephone with the last number redial facility but I believe Police used the telephones that morning and the evidence was lost.

As for guns and forensics I bow to those on the forum with superior knowledge.
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: Adam on February 06, 2017, 10:00:PM
Buddy & David were the last people to claim the twins were shot first.

They didn't say how they knew this, but claimed it somehow showed Sheila was the killer.

Bamber would be mad to fire 8 bullets into the twins, then go downstairs to re load before returning upstairs for Nevill & June.  There was a slim chance he fired one bullet each into the twins to negate them. The  went straight to the main bedroom with 9 bullets left.
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: Lucy522 on February 06, 2017, 10:01:PM
There was a call which Jeremy made from White House Farm to his answerphone at Bourtree Cottage at Goldhanger. It might have been made on the blue telephone with the last number redial facility but I believe Police used the telephones that morning and the evidence was lost.

As for guns and forensics I bow to those on the forum with superior knowledge.
Do you think his motive was purely greed? Sorry for all the questions,
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: Lucy522 on February 06, 2017, 10:04:PM
Buddy & David were the last people to claim the twins were shot first.

They didn't say how they knew this, but claimed it somehow showed Sheila was the killer.

Bamber would be mad to fire 8 bullets into the twins, then go downstairs to re load before returning upstairs for Nevill & June.  There was a slim chance he fired one bullet each into the twins to negate them. The  went straight to the main bedroom with 9 bullets left.
Steve, what do you think happened? I can't see him firing one shot and leaving them to suffer, it was overkill whoever shot them made sure they were dead from the offset,?
Either way it's horrendous
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: Steve_uk on February 06, 2017, 10:17:PM
Buddy & David were the last people to claim the twins were shot first.

They didn't say how they knew this, but claimed it somehow showed Sheila was the killer.

Bamber would be mad to fire 8 bullets into the twins, then go downstairs to re load before returning upstairs for Nevill & June.  There was a slim chance he fired one bullet each into the twins to negate them. The  went straight to the main bedroom with 9 bullets left.
I agree with this. He would have known the routine from the Sunday night and sussed out a modus operandi, over which he may have been equivocating during the first telephone call to Julie.
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: Steve_uk on February 06, 2017, 10:21:PM
Do you think his motive was purely greed? Sorry for all the questions,
Mainly greed, or he would have let the twins live and inherit their share. A sense of injustice how he had been adopted then sent away to Gresham's for eight years, thus failing to bond with his parents. Dissatisfaction with the farming lifestyle and seeing how he perceived Sheila lived in a luxury Maida Vale flat. Witnessing his mother's breakdown in 1982 and Nevill's more recent illness and wanting to put them out of their misery.

Many reasons..
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: Steve_uk on February 06, 2017, 10:25:PM
Steve, what do you think happened? I can't see him firing one shot and leaving them to suffer, it was overkill whoever shot them made sure they were dead from the offset,?
Either way it's horrendous
We don't know for sure. Maybe he wanted the outside to make it look as if it were Sheila. But she wasn't the type to handle guns. She might have cracked a nail. She was a dippy, rather remote girl who was lonely and stifled every relationship she had due to her neediness. She was gullible and easily trusting, which is why her brother's scheme worked.
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: Lucy522 on February 06, 2017, 10:30:PM
Mainly greed, or he would have let the twins live and inherit their share. A sense of injustice how he had been adopted then sent away to Gresham's for eight years, thus failing to bond with his parents. Dissatisfaction with the farming lifestyle and seeing how he perceived Sheila lived in a luxury Maida Vale flat. Witnessing his mother's breakdown in 1982 and Nevill's more recent illness and wanting to put them out of their misery.
I was adopted myself,
Also what was the reason for nevilles burden he disclosed to the farm secretary? I think it was Barbara Wilson?

Did we ever find that out,?.
Many reasons..
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: Lucy522 on February 06, 2017, 10:33:PM

Not sure why my reply has gone into the quote Steve silly phone
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: Steve_uk on February 06, 2017, 10:51:PM
Nevill was worried about his children. He suspected that Jeremy had broken into Osea Road and there were the unpaid loans which he probably felt would never be repaid. Sheila had suffered a breakdown in March 1985 and there was tension between Jeremy and June. He had been off work from his magistrate's job with stress and there was the harvest coming up with the extra burden that entailed as well as the shooting season, where accidents do happen..
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: Lucy522 on February 06, 2017, 10:55:PM
Nevill was worried about his children. He suspected that Jeremy had broken into Osea Road and there were the unpaid loans which he probably felt would never be repaid. Sheila had suffered a breakdown in March 1985 and there was tension between Jeremy and June. He had been off work from his magistrate's job with stress and there was the harvest coming up with the extra burden that entailed as well as the shooting season, where accidents do happen..
All reasons to worry, it seems quite an unstable family to be honest, nobody knows what goes on behind closed doors.. do you think Neville was scared of Jeremy? Do you think the conversation about fostering actually took place? Or was it just to set the scene and cause conflict?
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: Steve_uk on February 06, 2017, 11:11:PM
All reasons to worry, it seems quite an unstable family to be honest, nobody knows what goes on behind closed doors.. do you think Neville was scared of Jeremy? Do you think the conversation about fostering actually took place? Or was it just to set the scene and cause conflict?
There may have been some discussion about bringing in girls from the village to babysit, as had happened previously. According to Julie it was Jeremy who tried to sour relations by mentioning fostering round the table. He also made reference to Sheila's hospital bills and the parents' intention to use the NHS the next time she was ill.

This is a thread I wrote a few years ago which you may find useful.


Julie Mugford was not out for all she could get. She first met Jeremy at a London bar in November 1983 where they were both working and they felt a mutual attraction. It wasn't until a few months later that she realized the farming connection, and at that time Jeremy didn't even have the cottage at Goldhanger. Here is Jeremy back from his working holiday in New Zealand, not wanting to enter the farming way of life, feeling his way around maybe at a bit of a loss, whereupon he meets Julie.

Julie would stay at the cottage in Goldhanger during the holidays and it was then that she would come to meet June Bamber. The atmosphere would have been tense whenever June called, sometimes with Sheila and the twins but mostly alone. Again Julie sensed June's disapproval of her relationship with Jeremy and June made it clear that biblically they were living in sin together and that Julie was a harlot. June's hypocrisy is manifested because Sheila is not good enough to marry her son, a view she would have imparted to Jeremy, but again Julie is not in this relationship for short-term gain as she rejects June's offer of buying them a flat if they would leave the village and thereby stop the rumours flowing at the Queen's Head, which were damaging to Ralph's status as the local magistrate.


Jeremy had a strange view of relationships which he had learnt from his parents having employed farm staff: people were used for what they could offer and in return they received payment. There was no emotion involved and Jeremy accepted this as normal;when he one time visited Julie's relations he couldn't understand the tactile nature and the feeling of benevolence in the family was quite alien to him. It was this feeling of warmth and loyalty which kept him in the relationship with an older woman, Suzette Ford, for a number of years.

Julie was also learning fast in Thatcherite Britain;the lesson that money talks. Why, she inquired, did Jeremy not just cut loose, leave his family behind and move on? Because, retorted Jeremy, he had too much to lose. It was in this atmosphere that Julie became cocooned, and it is one explanation that inured her to Jeremy's unpleasant and cruel streak.

At the turn of the year 1985 Jeremy had been harbouring thoughts about harming his family. The farming lifestyle didn't suit, Sheila was living it up in London whilst the agricultural life was hard physical labour, June was unreliable and might easily change her will and leave money to the Church. Jeremy was a disappointment to Ralph who wanted an heir to take over the managerial responsibility the farm as a business entailed. Jeremy wasn't a natural leader, he didn't inspire confidence around him, and Jeremy was restless. If only his family would disappear Jeremy could receive his inheritance and move on. Spurred by a chance conversation with Colin Caffell and believing that the twins were "a millstone round his neck" Jeremy began to conceive ways that his family might disappear. He made hints to Julie, who busy with the fatigue of teaching practice and giving of herself in a way not demanded by other jobs, did not take him seriously and preoccupied herself with her immediate future gaining the necessary qualifications to make something of her life. Jeremy himself had never looked far ahead in a constructive way, having failed his first attempt at gaining qualifications. As a product of a public school it was others who occupied themselves with the menial tasks and as long as Jeremy had a cheque book he felt security thereby.

It was this callous disregard for people over money which set Jeremy on his evil course. He at first borrowed some of Julie's sleeping pills and drugged his parents' bedtime drinks one night but upon inquiring the following morning as to their slumber realized that they had experienced no detrimental effects. Jeremy was becoming desperate, especially when he saw the bills for Sheila's psychiatric care in March 1985 which were running into thousands of pounds and cutting into his inheritance. He discussed burning the house down with Julie but was talked out of this when he discovered the house was underinsured and many valuable heirlooms would be irreparably lost. It was then that he realized the solution that had been in the back of his mind all along,but even callous Jeremy had rejected it as an extreme solution for one so squeamish about guns. He would have to personally execute the family and make it look as if Sheila had killed them all.

Julie's primary school experience and training kicked in. How could he possibly kill the twins? And here, reader, how could a prospective teacher of small children who must have seen children like them on a regular basis in an educational setting sitting on those tiny plywood chairs with their uncorrupted faces not recoil at such a wicked scheme? Did Julie plead with Jeremy to save the twins, to spare them from this murder ritual, as frightening as any religious ritual that June had made her children and now her grandchildren endure at church and at the farm? No, replied Jeremy heartlessly, the twins would have to go, they were stopping Colin from obtaining regular employment and he would be able to move on with a life and make a fresh start, just as he,Jeremy, was planning to do.


Is it this thought,the thought that she could have saved the family, the spectre of Sheila's boys which haunts Julie every day, the new day which dawns in the backdrop of that bleak Canadian landscape?  Sheila's boys, Jeremy's future rivals in the profit-driven culture of the time, were not to be spared. Julie's way of making amends is to put her life and soul into her own children, her immediate family, to please her husband and to provide enrichment for other people's children, thousands of miles away, the geographical distance numbing somewhat the ramifications of those events twenty seven years ago, though the universality of childhood must bring the tears flooding back on occasion after the school bell has rung.



Title: Re: Hi
Post by: Caroline on February 07, 2017, 07:21:PM
Hi Caroline, I've never thought of it like that before, more food for thought, what's the one piece of evidence that makes you think guilty the most?

The phone from Nevill doesn't ring true, the timings are all wrong.
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: Adam on February 07, 2017, 07:48:PM
I do believe it was Sheila, i just can't get my head around the sequence of events,  what do you think happened lookout,?.

How do you think Sheila did it ?

There has been different theories. The last three being -

Nevill was shot twice in the body. Then went downstairs to ring Bamber & then the police 16 minutes later.

Sheila started shooting the twins. Nevill decided to go downstairs to ring Bamber and then the police 16 minutes later.

Sheila & Nevill both bare footed & in pyjamas/nightdress started talking about fostering downstairs at 3am. Sheila loaded, chambered and breached the rifle. Then went upstairs with it. Nevill didn't attempt to stop her, perferring to ring Bamber.
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: Lucy522 on February 07, 2017, 09:31:PM
How do you think Sheila did it ?

There has been different theories. The last three being -

Nevill was shot twice in the body. Then went downstairs to ring Bamber & then the police 16 minutes later.

Sheila started shooting the twins. Nevill decided to go downstairs to ring Bamber and then the police 16 minutes later.

Sheila & Nevill both bare footed & in pyjamas/nightdress started talking about fostering downstairs at 3am. Sheila loaded, chambered and breached the rifle. Then went upstairs with it. Nevill didn't attempt to stop her, perferring to ring Bamber.

I don't believe anybody was shot before the phonecall (if that's true), he wouldn't of phoned Jeremy if she was already shooting, maybe she had hold of the gun and was threatening to shoot them, but I don't for one second believe anybody in their right mind,  if someone was shooting their family with a loaded gun they would call their son, if the phonecall is true, in my mind no injuries had been caused at that moment, I think maybe June was shot first or the twins, while Neville was/if he was on the phone he then came back upstairs when the phone got cut off after hearing shots and that's when he was shot the first time, he then ran back downstairs to call the police hence the bloody fingerprints on the worktop,

What's your thoughts?
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: Adam on February 08, 2017, 04:52:AM
I don't believe anybody was shot before the phonecall (if that's true), he wouldn't of phoned Jeremy if she was already shooting, maybe she had hold of the gun and was threatening to shoot them, but I don't for one second believe anybody in their right mind,  if someone was shooting their family with a loaded gun they would call their son, if the phonecall is true, in my mind no injuries had been caused at that moment, I think maybe June was shot first or the twins, while Neville was/if he was on the phone he then came back upstairs when the phone got cut off after hearing shots and that's when he was shot the first time, he then ran back downstairs to call the police hence the bloody fingerprints on the worktop,

What's your thoughts?

If Sheila was not shooting anyone, why did Nevill just say 11 words to Bamber - 'Please come over, Sheila's gone crazy and she's got the gun'.

Nevill had let her load, breach and chamber the rifle. Then let her go upstairs alone with a rifle. So he didn't think she was a threat or going crazy. So would not have phoned Bamber.

If Nevill did think Sheila was a threat or she was shooting people, Bamber couldn't do anything for 20 minutes, if he eventually woke from sleeping 'like a log' & decided to answer the phone.  Which would take several more minutes.  Although he didn't arrive until 40 minutes later & never entered WHF.

Shooting or not shootng,  threat or no threat there is no benefit in phoning Bamber at 3am.
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: Lucy522 on February 08, 2017, 07:00:AM
If Sheila was not shooting anyone, why did Nevill just say 11 words to Bamber - 'Please come over, Sheila's gone crazy and she's got the gun'.

Nevill had let her load, breach and chamber the rifle. Then let her go upstairs alone with a rifle. So he didn't think she was a threat or going crazy. So would not have phoned Bamber.

If Nevill did think Sheila was a threat or she was shooting people, Bamber couldn't do anything for 20 minutes, if he eventually woke from sleeping 'like a log' & decided to answer the phone.  Which would take several more minutes.  Although he didn't arrive until 40 minutes later & never entered WHF.

Shooting or not shootng,  threat or no threat there is no benefit in phoning Bamber at 3am.


Neville may of been asleep and woke up and Sheila had the gun, I see what you mean though about the benefit of the phonecall, he may have been trying to calm her down but it aggravated the situation more, but I can't help feeling June would of been out of bed to if that was the case, this bit puzzles me greatly, was there any record of a phonecall from whf to the polive??
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: Adam on February 08, 2017, 08:44:AM
If Nevill woke up & Sheila had the gun, he would not have phoned Bamber. Sheila would have started firing, or was passive enough to be disarmed.

Posters have said June was a light sleeper but was shot while asleep.  June is more likely to be woken by Sheila & Nevill kicking off over a long period than by Bamber creeping upstairs.

Nevill would also wake June rather than phone Bamber. She was an available adult who was safer awake than asleep & could cover the twins.
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: Lucy522 on February 08, 2017, 04:23:PM
If Nevill woke up & Sheila had the gun, he would not have phoned Bamber. Sheila would have started firing, or was passive enough to be disarmed.

Posters have said June was a light sleeper but was shot while asleep.  June is more likely to be woken by Sheila & Nevill kicking off over a long period than by Bamber creeping upstairs.

Nevill would also wake June rather than phone Bamber. She was an available adult who was safer awake than asleep & could cover the twins.

I'm so confused now !!!
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: Lucy522 on February 08, 2017, 04:42:PM
If Nevill woke up & Sheila had the gun, he would not have phoned Bamber. Sheila would have started firing, or was passive enough to be disarmed.

Posters have said June was a light sleeper but was shot while asleep.  June is more likely to be woken by Sheila & Nevill kicking off over a long period than by Bamber creeping upstairs.

Nevill would also wake June rather than phone Bamber. She was an available adult who was safer awake than asleep & could cover the twins.

But if June was a light sleeper how the hell did they not hear him wrenching the window open in the kitchen he would of knocked things off and the dog would be barking
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: Roch on February 08, 2017, 04:53:PM
If Nevill woke up & Sheila had the gun, he would not have phoned Bamber. Sheila would have started firing, or was passive enough to be disarmed.

Posters have said June was a light sleeper but was shot while asleep.  June is more likely to be woken by Sheila & Nevill kicking off over a long period than by Bamber creeping upstairs.

Nevill would also wake June rather than phone Bamber. She was an available adult who was safer awake than asleep & could cover the twins.

What if Nevill, usually last to turn in, fell asleep downstairs in his chair... and allowed the 'light sleeper' June to slumber undisturbed?
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: lookout on February 08, 2017, 06:08:PM
But if June was a light sleeper how the hell did they not hear him wrenching the window open in the kitchen he would of knocked things off and the dog would be barking





Lucy I believe the dog barked initially when anyone entered the house,be it family or visitors,then it stopped. Crispy was apparently barking continuously.
Mr Wager,the painter/decorator mentioned this when he was working on the house.He even said it would probably bite too.
Someone running amok around the house would have caused the dog to be either distressed or excitable ( as in a game ) therefore making it bark.
Jeremy would have either back-heeled it or even shot it because he couldn't stand it-------so why didn't he ? A traumatised animal,especially an old traumatised animal would be put to sleep anyway.
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: Adam on February 08, 2017, 06:10:PM
But if June was a light sleeper how the hell did they not hear him wrenching the window open in the kitchen he would of knocked things off and the dog would be barking

It was the bathroom window. Nothing would be knocked off upon entry.  The window was downstairs in a big house. Behind doors.  It was already loose after Bamber had used a hack saw on it.  Or had been left ajar by Bamber that evening.

The  dog was not a guard dog. Dog's sleep as well. It may have been locked in a separate room at night.
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: lookout on February 08, 2017, 06:19:PM
Crispy had the run of the house and wasn't locked up anywhere.
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: Lucy522 on February 08, 2017, 10:03:PM
It was the bathroom window. Nothing would be knocked off upon entry.  The window was downstairs in a big house. Behind doors.  It was already loose after Bamber had used a hack saw on it.  Or had been left ajar by Bamber that evening.

The  dog was not a guard dog. Dog's sleep as well. It may have been locked in a separate room at night.
Ann said things had been moved from their usual place, why would she say that she hardly went there?
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: Lucy522 on February 08, 2017, 10:05:PM
What if Nevill, usually last to turn in, fell asleep downstairs in his chair... and allowed the 'light sleeper' June to slumber undisturbed?
If he was downstairs then he would of been shot first down there, the shooter would of had him out the way straight away,  he was the biggest threat and I can't see him allowing someone upstairs to shoot his sleeping wife? There would of been a commotion either way and June would be out of bed ??
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: Lucy522 on February 08, 2017, 10:09:PM




Lucy I believe the dog barked initially when anyone entered the house,be it family or visitors,then it stopped. Crispy was apparently barking continuously.
Mr Wager,the painter/decorator mentioned this when he was working on the house.He even said it would probably bite too.
Someone running amok around the house would have caused the dog to be either distressed or excitable ( as in a game ) therefore making it bark.
Jeremy would have either back-heeled it or even shot it because he couldn't stand it-------so why didn't he ? A traumatised animal,especially an old traumatised animal would be put to sleep anyway.

I agree, so the theory Neville was shot in the bedroom first I don't think is true, he would of come downstairs,
Someone came through the bathroom  window, the dog would of been barking, June would of woken up, he would of come downstairs, tee killer had to come in in the pitch black,without disturbing anything,  find the gun,load the gun, then go upstairs to begin, ??? It doesn't sit right, I think neveille would of put the gun away that eveningss the twins were in the house ?,
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: Adam on February 09, 2017, 05:15:AM
Ann said things had been moved from their usual place, why would she say that she hardly went there?

What things had been moved from their usual place ? If by the bathroom window, that is not surprising. Bamber entered through it.
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: Adam on February 09, 2017, 05:26:AM


So Nevill woke and heard Bamber climb through the downstairs window. Went downstairs and was shot downstairs, went upstairs and was shot again, then went back downstairs.

June would have woken up, but didn't wake up while Sheila was going crazy over a long period. And Nevill did not wake June. Preferring to ring Bamber 3 miles away. At 3am.

Bamber knew the house so could get up the stairs without turning on any lights. The rifle was already loaded and either hidden by Bamber earlier that night, or in the unlocked gun cupboard.
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: lookout on February 09, 2017, 11:53:AM
June was a light sleeper. In fact she was a bad sleeper who suffered from nightmares which kept her awake. Latterly,for whatever reason,she'd been seeing her GP regularly for 6 months up to the tragedy,probably stress because of worry over Sheila. June would have heard a pin drop let alone the sound of a gun going off.

Neville would have initially been downstairs after returning late from walking the dogs,then showering and very likely heard Sheila ranting,upstairs. He may have heard gunshots but perhaps thought that the shots were fired upwards as a " warning " and not the fact that Sheila could possibly have shot the twins at that point. On hearing shots,Neville would have rang Jeremy, then he would have made his way upstairs to see what was going on and while upstairs was shot himself so he retreated back down again into the kitchen where Sheila had followed,most likely still ranting and revealing the very sick side to her illness.
 ( I was witness last year to a very sick woman whose shouting sounded like that of a man and a neighbour had reported the shouting as being a " drunken man " causing a breach of the peace,but in actual fact the woman suffered from paranoia and spent 3+ months in hospital  There'd always been the shouting,but it got progressively worse. The change in the tone of her voice was creepy to say the least. )
Their moods can change in an instant and their main attackers are those that they love,strange as it may seem. 
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: Caroline on February 09, 2017, 12:57:PM
Ann said things had been moved from their usual place, why would she say that she hardly went there?
She didn't, it was the housekeeper Jean Bouttell
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: Caroline on February 09, 2017, 01:02:PM
June was a light sleeper. In fact she was a bad sleeper who suffered from nightmares which kept her awake. Latterly,for whatever reason,she'd been seeing her GP regularly for 6 months up to the tragedy,probably stress because of worry over Sheila. June would have heard a pin drop let alone the sound of a gun going off.

Neville would have initially been downstairs after returning late from walking the dogs,then showering and very likely heard Sheila ranting,upstairs. He may have heard gunshots but perhaps thought that the shots were fired upwards as a " warning " and not the fact that Sheila could possibly have shot the twins at that point. On hearing shots,Neville would have rang Jeremy, then he would have made his way upstairs to see what was going on and while upstairs was shot himself so he retreated back down again into the kitchen where Sheila had followed,most likely still ranting and revealing the very sick side to her illness.
 ( I was witness last year to a very sick woman whose shouting sounded like that of a man and a neighbour had reported the shouting as being a " drunken man " causing a breach of the peace,but in actual fact the woman suffered from paranoia and spent 3+ months in hospital  There'd always been the shouting,but it got progressively worse. The change in the tone of her voice was creepy to say the least. )
Their moods can change in an instant and their main attackers are those that they love,strange as it may seem.

Nevill heard shots but didn't call the police and didn't tell Jeremy shots had been fired. I doubt it! But as you add your personal experience into the mix, I have recently had experience of someone close to me taking haldoperidol and they were out of it. The dose was MUCH smaller than that given to Sheila and they couldn't function.
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: Adam on February 09, 2017, 01:13:PM
It's good that supporters have different theories on how Sheila commited the massacre.

This week Mike has said Nevill phoned Bamber and the police after getting two body shots. And today Lookout has said Nevill heard upstairs shots but thought Sheila was firing warning shots into the ceiling. So Nevill phoned his son. As you do.
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: Adam on February 09, 2017, 01:16:PM
June was a light sleeper. In fact she was a bad sleeper who suffered from nightmares which kept her awake. Latterly,for whatever reason,she'd been seeing her GP regularly for 6 months up to the tragedy,probably stress because of worry over Sheila. June would have heard a pin drop let alone the sound of a gun going off.

Neville would have initially been downstairs after returning late from walking the dogs,then showering and very likely heard Sheila ranting,upstairs. He may have heard gunshots but perhaps thought that the shots were fired upwards as a " warning " and not the fact that Sheila could possibly have shot the twins at that point. On hearing shots,Neville would have rang Jeremy, then he would have made his way upstairs to see what was going on and while upstairs was shot himself so he retreated back down again into the kitchen where Sheila had followed,most likely still ranting and revealing the very sick side to her illness.
 ( I was witness last year to a very sick woman whose shouting sounded like that of a man and a neighbour had reported the shouting as being a " drunken man " causing a breach of the peace,but in actual fact the woman suffered from paranoia and spent 3+ months in hospital  There'd always been the shouting,but it got progressively worse. The change in the tone of her voice was creepy to say the least. )
Their moods can change in an instant and their main attackers are those that they love,strange as it may seem.

It's good that you agree Nevill did not phone the police. This scenario makes it impossible.
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: Roch on February 09, 2017, 01:21:PM
If he was downstairs then he would of been shot first down there, the shooter would of had him out the way straight away,  he was the biggest threat and I can't see him allowing someone upstairs to shoot his sleeping wife? There would of been a commotion either way and June would be out of bed ??

If he was asleep downstairs - and Sheila wanted to send herself and her babies to their rest upstairs - he is not necessarily an immediate threat. 
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: lookout on February 09, 2017, 01:27:PM
It's good that you agree Nevill did not phone the police. This scenario makes it impossible.





I didn't say that he didn't ring the police. It would have been minutes after he'd phoned Jeremy. Hence the phone being engaged when Jeremy tried to ring back.
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: Caroline on February 09, 2017, 01:42:PM
If he was asleep downstairs - and Sheila wanted to send herself and her babies to their rest upstairs - he is not necessarily an immediate threat.

Why would he be asleep downstairs? How would he not have heard her 'get the gun' and load it? If she wanted to kill herself and children, how come she shot June? But the easiest way to have done that would have been to kill all at the flat.
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: lookout on February 09, 2017, 01:53:PM
Why would he be asleep downstairs? How would he not have heard her 'get the gun' and load it? If she wanted to kill herself and children, how come she shot June? But the easiest way to have done that would have been to kill all at the flat.





Neville could have been in the lounge having his usual " nightcap ". Many people nod off after having taken the dog out,then bathing/showering,ending with a stiff drink. It's a relaxing time. He could have heard Sheila entering the kitchen where both struck up a conversation,leading to a heated argument with Sheila pouring out all her grievances ( she'd had many ) and so the tragedy began.
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: Lucy522 on February 09, 2017, 03:04:PM




I didn't say that he didn't ring the police. It would have been minutes after he'd phoned Jeremy. Hence the phone being engaged when Jeremy tried to ring back.

Lookout was there ever a cal recorded from whf to the police?

If he did phone Jeremy first I don't believe Sheila was an immediate threat/began shooting at that time??
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: Lucy522 on February 09, 2017, 03:07:PM
Nevill heard shots but didn't call the police and didn't tell Jeremy shots had been fired. I doubt it! But as you add your personal experience into the mix, I have recently had experience of someone close to me taking haldoperidol and they were out of it. The dose was MUCH smaller than that given to Sheila and they couldn't function.

See I'm confused about the phonecall, If there was a call to Jeremy from Neville surely that means Sheila wasn't an immediate threat right then, if she was running amok with a gun and your wife and grandchildren were upstairs you wouldn't leave the situation to phone your son, if it was a 999 call yes, Jeremy no, what was happening at that time?!!!
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: Lucy522 on February 09, 2017, 03:11:PM
If he was asleep downstairs - and Sheila wanted to send herself and her babies to their rest upstairs - he is not necessarily an immediate threat.

So yes another way of thinking of it, he'd nodded off downstairs and Sheila had taken the gun upstairs and began the massacre? Where does the phonecall come in? I see what your saying,  this phonecall business is really puzzling,if Neville was shot in the kitchen first there would be a blood trail through the house and upstairs and likewise if it was the bedroom it would be down the stairs, the fatal shots were obviously fired in the kitchen but where were the others? And why were the children still in their beds sleeping,? How loud would shots from a silencer be? Could you liken it to something for me?
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: Caroline on February 09, 2017, 03:15:PM
Lookout was there ever a cal recorded from whf to the police?

If he did phone Jeremy first I don't believe Sheila was an immediate threat/began shooting at that time??

No call was recorded, it was an old exchange that routed the calls and they had no physical way to record or save information.
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: lookout on February 09, 2017, 03:55:PM
Lookout was there ever a cal recorded from whf to the police?

If he did phone Jeremy first I don't believe Sheila was an immediate threat/began shooting at that time??





Yes,I believe Neville did call the police ( as another Mr.Bamber ) prior to Jeremy's call to them,who'd also addressed himself as Mr.Bamber.Two Mr.Bamber's didn't take much to cause the confusion that reigned between the officers at EP. I often wondered why Neville had addressed them as the " Keystone Cops ".Perhaps his time as magistrate taught him that.

It hadn't been unusual for Neville to have rung his son to help him calm his sister down,which must have been after Jeremy had moved out of WHF when Sheila was visiting,latterly. Convalescing from clinic ? Too soon in my estimation !
When Neville rang Jeremy,no shots to his father would have been evident at that point,apart from the fact that Sheila may have grabbed the rifle and had been on her way upstairs,then the shooting would have begun.
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: Adam on February 09, 2017, 05:36:PM

Nevill called the police 16 minutes after Bamber.



I didn't say that he didn't ring the police. It would have been minutes after he'd phoned Jeremy. Hence the phone being engaged when Jeremy tried to ring back.
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: Steve_uk on February 09, 2017, 06:22:PM




Yes,I believe Neville did call the police ( as another Mr.Bamber ) prior to Jeremy's call to them,who'd also addressed himself as Mr.Bamber.Two Mr.Bamber's didn't take much to cause the confusion that reigned between the officers at EP. I often wondered why Neville had addressed them as the " Keystone Cops ".Perhaps his time as magistrate taught him that.

It hadn't been unusual for Neville to have rung his son to help him calm his sister down,which must have been after Jeremy had moved out of WHF when Sheila was visiting,latterly. Convalescing from clinic ? Too soon in my estimation !
When Neville rang Jeremy,no shots to his father would have been evident at that point,apart from the fact that Sheila may have grabbed the rifle and had been on her way upstairs,then the shooting would have begun.
I'm not sure I believe this. though I know the Bambers liked to keep their affairs in-house. Jeremy specifically told Police outside that brother and sister didn't get on.
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: lookout on February 09, 2017, 06:44:PM
I'm not sure I believe this. though I know the Bambers liked to keep their affairs in-house. Jeremy specifically told Police outside that brother and sister didn't get on.




Not many brothers and sisters get on anyway,particularly in their younger years,though seemingly things improved as they got older and were out of each others hair.
It was Jeremy who looked after his sister where Colin had been too drunk to take her home,remember. It always seemed to be left to JB or the father to pick up the pieces,nobody else. The two men/people who Sheila didn't have a bad word to say to or about.
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: Caroline on February 09, 2017, 07:16:PM




Yes,I believe Neville did call the police ( as another Mr.Bamber ) prior to Jeremy's call to them,who'd also addressed himself as Mr.Bamber.Two Mr.Bamber's didn't take much to cause the confusion that reigned between the officers at EP. I often wondered why Neville had addressed them as the " Keystone Cops ".Perhaps his time as magistrate taught him that.

It hadn't been unusual for Neville to have rung his son to help him calm his sister down,which must have been after Jeremy had moved out of WHF when Sheila was visiting,latterly. Convalescing from clinic ? Too soon in my estimation !
When Neville rang Jeremy,no shots to his father would have been evident at that point,apart from the fact that Sheila may have grabbed the rifle and had been on her way upstairs,then the shooting would have begun.

There was one call - from Jeremy!

Where is it stated that it wasn't unusual for Nevill to call Jeremy to help calm his sister?

If Sheila walked upstairs with a rifle, Nevill would NOT have wasted time calling Jeremy, the idea is ridiculous.
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: Adam on February 09, 2017, 07:36:PM
See I'm confused about the phonecall, If there was a call to Jeremy from Neville surely that means Sheila wasn't an immediate threat right then, if she was running amok with a gun and your wife and grandchildren were upstairs you wouldn't leave the situation to phone your son, if it was a 999 call yes, Jeremy no, what was happening at that time?!!!

Either Sheila was no threat and Nevill would not need to call anyone.

Or Sheila was a threat and Nevill had no time to call anyone.

You're choice.
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: Steve_uk on February 09, 2017, 07:48:PM
Either Sheila was no threat and Nevill would not need to call anyone.

Or Sheila was a threat and Nevill had no time to call anyone.

You're choice.
I think Scott Lomax's theory is that Sheila was a threat, they struggled with the gun with silencer, which hit the mantelpiece thereby leaving the red paint mark and he managed to dial Jeremy's number but Sheila cut him off.
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: Adam on February 09, 2017, 08:04:PM
I think Scott Lomax's theory is that Sheila was a threat, they struggled with the gun with silencer, which hit the mantelpiece thereby leaving the red paint mark and he managed to dial Jeremy's number but Sheila cut him off.

So it had got physical between Nevill & Sheila. However Nevill had not been shot in the face yet, or he couldn't speak to ring Bamber.

If a fully fit Nevill had struggled with Sheila, he would have won. Not stopped and phoned Bamber.
 
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: Steve_uk on February 09, 2017, 08:05:PM
So it had got physical between Nevill & Sheila. However Nevill had not been shot in the face yet, or he couldn't speak to ring Bamber.

If a fully fit Nevill had struggled with Sheila, he would have won. Not phoned Bamber.
..and if the silencer was on the weapon at any stage in any realistic scenario it's curtains for Jeremy Bamber.
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: Adam on February 09, 2017, 08:07:PM
Nevill heard shots but didn't call the police and didn't tell Jeremy shots had been fired. I doubt it! But as you add your personal experience into the mix, I have recently had experience of someone close to me taking haldoperidol and they were out of it. The dose was MUCH smaller than that given to Sheila and they couldn't function.

That explains how Bamber got Sheila from her bed into the main bedroom. Everyone else being dead and Bamber holding a gun would have helped.
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: Lucy522 on February 09, 2017, 09:31:PM
..and if the silencer was on the weapon at any stage in any realistic scenario it's curtains for Jeremy Bamber.

Ive read that one of Sheila's shots had the silencer mark round it the other one didn't,I don't believe it wast used, what do you think? They had to find something to connect Jeremy to the scene,  this was all they had
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: Caroline on February 09, 2017, 09:48:PM
Ive read that one of Sheila's shots had the silencer mark round it the other one didn't,I don't believe it wast used, what do you think? They had to find something to connect Jeremy to the scene,  this was all they had

It doesn't have a silencer mark.
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: Steve_uk on February 09, 2017, 10:30:PM
Ive read that one of Sheila's shots had the silencer mark round it the other one didn't,I don't believe it wast used, what do you think? They had to find something to connect Jeremy to the scene,  this was all they had
There 's more on this in the Andrew Hunter book draft, but I don't have the link to hand. Apparently two gun enthusiasts in Ewen Smith's office in Birmingham spotted the mark from some photos they were handed.
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: Caroline on February 09, 2017, 11:11:PM
There 's more on this in the Andrew Hunter book draft, but I don't have the link to hand. Apparently two gun enthusiasts in Ewen Smith's office in Birmingham spotted the mark from some photos they were handed.

We have the photographs here Steve and I can certainly see nothing that looks like a silencer mark.
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: Lucy522 on February 10, 2017, 06:30:AM
There 's more on this in the Andrew Hunter book draft, but I don't have the link to hand. Apparently two gun enthusiasts in Ewen Smith's office in Birmingham spotted the mark from some photos they were handed.

That's where I just read it Steve, do you think the silencer played a part?
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: Lucy522 on February 10, 2017, 06:32:AM
We have the photographs here Steve and I can certainly see nothing that looks like a silencer mark.
Caroline, do any of them have a silencer mark ? I've only seen Sheila's,  thankyou x
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: Caroline on February 10, 2017, 11:45:AM
Caroline, do any of them have a silencer mark ? I've only seen Sheila's,  thankyou x

No, none of them.
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: Lucy522 on February 10, 2017, 07:19:PM
No, none of them.
Well then how can they say a silencer was used!!!! Some of the shots were contact shots!!
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: Lucy522 on February 10, 2017, 07:21:PM
I think Scott Lomax's theory is that Sheila was a threat, they struggled with the gun with silencer, which hit the mantelpiece thereby leaving the red paint mark and he managed to dial Jeremy's number but Sheila cut him off.
That's the more plausible theory and the one I definitely lean towards
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: Adam on February 10, 2017, 07:24:PM
Well then how can they say a silencer was used!!!! Some of the shots were contact shots!!

Because Sheila's blood was in it. From back splatter.  And there was no blood in the rifle barrel.
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: Steve_uk on February 10, 2017, 07:39:PM
We have the photographs here Steve and I can certainly see nothing that looks like a silencer mark.
Caroline I just wondered if Ewen Smith had in his possession photos which have not yet seen the light of day?
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: lookout on February 10, 2017, 07:44:PM
Because Sheila's blood was in it. From back splatter.  And there was no blood in the rifle barrel.




Which rifle barrel would that have been ? How would both the police and Jeremy have known that the one that Jeremy had last used was the murder weapon ?
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: Lucy522 on February 10, 2017, 08:06:PM
Because Sheila's blood was in it. From back splatter.  And there was no blood in the rifle barrel.
Was there anybody else's blood in it or just Sheila's? She only had 2 wounds whereas the others had a lot more so I'd expect there to be everyone's blood in it?
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: Lucy522 on February 10, 2017, 08:07:PM
Caroline I just wondered if Ewen Smith had in his possession photos which have not yet seen the light of day?
Sorry if I'm being nosy, but who is ewan smith?
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: Steve_uk on February 10, 2017, 08:23:PM
Sorry if I'm being nosy, but who is ewan smith?
He's a solicitor in Birmingham who was dealing with Jeremy's case a few years ago.
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: Caroline on February 10, 2017, 09:22:PM
Caroline I just wondered if Ewen Smith had in his possession photos which have not yet seen the light of day?

Well, he may but we have pretty clear pictures (one in particular) that show the wounds clearly enough to see that there is no such mark.
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: Caroline on February 10, 2017, 09:23:PM
Well then how can they say a silencer was used!!!! Some of the shots were contact shots!!

Because they claim Sheila's blood was inside it.
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: Caroline on February 10, 2017, 09:25:PM



Which rifle barrel would that have been ? How would both the police and Jeremy have known that the one that Jeremy had last used was the murder weapon ?

Because it was on Sheila's body!  ;D
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: Caroline on February 10, 2017, 09:26:PM
Was there anybody else's blood in it or just Sheila's? She only had 2 wounds whereas the others had a lot more so I'd expect there to be everyone's blood in it?

Why? It would depend on whether the wounds were contact wounds r not.
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: Lucy522 on February 10, 2017, 09:42:PM
He's a solicitor in Birmingham who was dealing with Jeremy's case a few years ago.

Do you think there will ever be a retrial or review?
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: Steve_uk on February 10, 2017, 09:50:PM
Do you think there will ever be a retrial or review?
You never know with the Establishment. David Bain got a retrial because it was the easiest option given that Joe Karam was dragging the New Zealand legal establishment into the mud, but I think they were secretly hoping that the original conviction would be upheld. I think the same mindset pertained with Barry George. Mark Lundy got a retrial. Michael Blagg is going to get one. Lisa and Michelle Taylor were released without one. With Jeremy Bamber I doubt very much a retrial would be desirable for the Establishment. He's either going to rot in jail until he dies(the far likeliest outcome) or he will be released with the official legalese that the conviction has been rendered "unsafe".
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: Caroline on February 10, 2017, 10:07:PM
Do you think there will ever be a retrial or review?

I very much doubt it unless someone comes forward with new evidence - not a rehash of old stuff or the picking over of documents to find a few admin errors.
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: lookout on February 11, 2017, 11:07:AM
Do you think there will ever be a retrial or review?





Given time,as a legal team have been working furiously in the background for a while now,we none of us know what the said team will come up with and if strong enough evidence exists that does find Jeremy innocent then I can't envisage a retrial,only a complete dismissal of his sentence.
 Though the longer the sentence goes on,the more the compensation builds up and the less likely he is to be released because of the huge cost involved.
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: Caroline on February 11, 2017, 11:50:AM




Given time,as a legal team have been working furiously in the background for a while now,we none of us know what the said team will come up with and if strong enough evidence exists that does find Jeremy innocent then I can't envisage a retrial,only a complete dismissal of his sentence.
 Though the longer the sentence goes on,the more the compensation builds up and the less likely he is to be released because of the huge cost involved.

If there is evidence, he would get an appeal, if not, he won't - nothing to do with compensation.
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: lookout on February 11, 2017, 02:02:PM
Because it was on Sheila's body!  ;D




Whose rifle ?
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: lookout on February 11, 2017, 02:04:PM
If there is evidence, he would get an appeal, if not, he won't - nothing to do with compensation.





Compensation would be a frightening thought all round I'd have thought.
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: Caroline on February 11, 2017, 02:11:PM




Compensation would be a frightening thought all round I'd have thought.

Not one that anyone needs to consider.
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: lookout on February 11, 2017, 02:12:PM
Because it was on Sheila's body!  ;D





Just like EP you take the easiest option instead of testing/examining all the guns/rifles for prints,and also because the relatives told EP " it was JB " you were quite happy to go along with that without question.
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: Caroline on February 11, 2017, 02:22:PM




Just like EP you take the easiest option instead of testing/examining all the guns/rifles for prints,and also because the relatives told EP " it was JB " you were quite happy to go along with that without question.

What on earth are you talking about? Unlike you, I have looked at this from both sides and considered both innocence and guilt! I have even asked the man himself various questions so I'm not happy to go along with anything. I certainly don't believe stuff just because it's posted here!!

You don't have to be a forensic expert to work out that the rifle on Sheila's body was the only gun in the house to use the kind of ammo used to kill everyone. Even inspector Clouseau could work that one out. The anschutz was the murder weapon Lookout!

Title: Re: Hi
Post by: Steve_uk on February 11, 2017, 02:26:PM
What on earth are you talking about? Unlike you, I have looked at this from both sides and considered both innocence and guilt! I have even asked the man himself various questions so I'm not happy to go along with anything. I certainly don't believe stuff just because it's posted here!!

You don't have to be a forensic expert to work out that the rifle on Sheila's body was the only gun in the house to use the kind of ammo used to kill everyone. Even inspector Clouseau could work that one out. The anschutz was the murder weapon Lookout!
Jeremy seemed to know which weapon was involved when he reported Nevill as saying "Sheila has got the gun." The problem arises with the relatives finding the silencer, which would indicate Jeremy was stupid enough to leave it in situ or the relatives knew he was the culprit but couldn't prove it until the silencer scheme was hatched.
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: lookout on February 11, 2017, 03:50:PM
Jeremy seemed to know which weapon was involved when he reported Nevill as saying "Sheila has got the gun." The problem arises with the relatives finding the silencer, which would indicate Jeremy was stupid enough to leave it in situ or the relatives knew he was the culprit but couldn't prove it until the silencer scheme was hatched.





Wouldn't Neville have said " the rifle " if that's what he meant ? There's a difference between a gun and a rifle. Could he have meant the shotgun which was found with Sheila's fingerprints on it ? She may have been wavering it about in a threatening way ?
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: lookout on February 11, 2017, 03:53:PM
Visually,would Sheila have known the difference between a rifle and a shotgun ? Why had she handled the shotgun ?
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: Steve_uk on February 11, 2017, 03:57:PM
Visually,would Sheila have known the difference between a rifle and a shotgun ? Why had she handled the shotgun ?
Well I wouldn't know the difference, but if Jeremy had killed them all there's nothing to stop him staging the scene as he wished, including depositing his sister's fingerprints on any surface he chose.
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: Caroline on February 11, 2017, 03:58:PM




Wouldn't Neville have said " the rifle " if that's what he meant ? There's a difference between a gun and a rifle. Could he have meant the shotgun which was found with Sheila's fingerprints on it ? She may have been wavering it about in a threatening way ?

The rifle did have Sheila's finger 'print' on it - no other gun did.
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: Caroline on February 11, 2017, 03:59:PM
Visually,would Sheila have known the difference between a rifle and a shotgun ? Why had she handled the shotgun ?

She didn't.
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: lookout on February 11, 2017, 05:39:PM
She didn't.





Her fingerprints were on the shotgun.
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: Caroline on February 11, 2017, 05:54:PM




Her fingerprints were on the shotgun.

then you'll be able to point to a document stating that?
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: lookout on February 11, 2017, 06:28:PM
then you'll be able to point to a document stating that?





There must be a document somewhere as John had mentioned it.,Not only Sheila's fingerprints on the shotgun, but her father's as well. I'll try and find said document.
Title: Re: Hi
Post by: Caroline on February 11, 2017, 06:33:PM




There must be a document somewhere as John had mentioned it.,Not only Sheila's fingerprints on the shotgun, but her father's as well. I'll try and find said document.

Bet you can't  ;)