Jeremy Bamber Forum

JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: Caroline on November 15, 2019, 10:32:PM

Title: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 15, 2019, 10:32:PM
I believe this has come up before some time ago but, the Anschutz being a semi-automatic delivered a new shell into the chamber after the previous bullet had fired. During this process the fired shell casing is ejected from the weapon from the right hand side and had Sheila killed herself 'both' should have been found on 'her' left hand side as she lay on her back. However, the casings related to Sheila, were found both on her left (close to her head - not immediately obvious) and to her right (some distance from her body). As seen in the following diagram labelled DRH1 and DRH 2

(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4470)

If Sheila shot herself, how did one of the casings end up on her right side?





Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 15, 2019, 10:38:PM
The shells wouldn't have been in the right places if she'd been moved ?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 15, 2019, 10:51:PM
The shells wouldn't have been in the right places if she'd been moved ?

They were in the right places, Colins (one of the first on the scene_noted seeing one shell casing (DRH1) and he had to be talking about the one on her right (near the bible) because the one on her left wasn't immediately visible according to Hammersley

Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 15, 2019, 11:11:PM
The same question applies if Jeremy shot her.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 15, 2019, 11:16:PM
The same question applies if Jeremy shot her.

Not really and Jeremy was free to move around.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 15, 2019, 11:18:PM
Not really and Jeremy was free to move around.

So what? Sheila was shot where she was found IMO, and the cartridge wouldn't have jumped just because Jeremy could move around.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 15, 2019, 11:22:PM
So what? Sheila was shot where she was found IMO, and the cartridge wouldn't have jumped just because Jeremy could move around.

The shots were supposed to be fired one straight after the other, to have the casing fall on the other side, Sheila would have had to turn the gun around after having already been injured and manage these two angles.

(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4465)
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 15, 2019, 11:29:PM
I don't get what you're saying. If Jeremy shot her, the same thing applies. Are you suggesting that he moved the empty cartridge or something?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 15, 2019, 11:57:PM
I don't get what you're saying. If Jeremy shot her, the same thing applies. Are you suggesting that he moved the empty cartridge or something?

No, the rifle ejects from only one side, in order to have the casing eject to the right of Sheila, the rifle would have to be turned around or be held upside down. Plus the two shots are at completely different angles. Venezis thought she must have been sitting up - how can she have been sitting up from the angle she died in? Her head would have had to have been leaning uncomfortably against the bedside table or without support at all.

(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4315)
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: guest7363 on November 16, 2019, 05:13:AM
I don't get what you're saying. If Jeremy shot her, the same thing applies. Are you suggesting that he moved the empty cartridge or something?
I think what Caroline is saying, if Sheila was shot in this position, both spent cartridges would have ejected to the right  of Sheila, like DRH2.  We know that these two shells are the ones attributed to Sheila’s death, there is no others in the vicinity and fired pretty much after one another.


Picture in your head, a rifle above Sheila’s body, the shot is fired and the Casing ejects to the right DRH2, this shot hasn’t killed her, so a second shot and the casing should have ejected to the right the same way, why has DRH1 gone to the left when both should have gone to the right?

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4072


Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: guest7363 on November 16, 2019, 05:42:AM
The shells wouldn't have been in the right places if she'd been moved ?
I think if anything it proves the body wasn’t moved or staged by the police, if they moved the body, would they have put one case either side of the body? 
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: guest7363 on November 16, 2019, 06:15:AM
Possibly, DRH2 was the first shot fired to Sheila with the rifle held more upright by the killer, ejecting the spent casing to the right and further towards the head of Sheila, this was the none fatal shot, a more upright position of the rifle would send the casing in this position.  Realising Sheila was still alive, the killer turns the rifle upside down and this allows him to lower the rifle more flat to the body, this then gives a more direct shot up through the scull and not angled, the casing then ejects to the left DRH1.

Having the sights removed from the rifle would allow the rifle to be in a lower position to the body and when turned upside down, his or her hands would be on top with the trigger guard?

DRH1 casing is more in line with a lower down rifle shot, DRH2 casing is further forward towards the head pointing to a higher rifle shot?

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4072
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: guest7363 on November 16, 2019, 06:48:AM
It was Hammersley who found the case next to Sheilas head, this want visible until a closer look revealed this casing. So Delgado and Collins only reported seeing the casing next to the bible.

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5817.0;attach=37840
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: David1819 on November 16, 2019, 09:10:AM
DRH1 casing is more in line with a lower down rifle shot, DRH2 casing is further forward towards the head pointing to a higher rifle shot?


I don't think its possible to determine what shell casing is attributed to what shot. This gun had a deflector plate that would make the shell casings bounce forward. Since Sheila was shot while sitting up, the shell casings would be deflected in an upward direction.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 16, 2019, 09:17:AM
This is very interesting. It's possible that the gun had to be held upside down to get the right angle. Couldn't Sheila have done that herself though?

Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 16, 2019, 09:34:AM
This is very interesting. It's possible that the gun had to be held upside down to get the right angle. Couldn't Sheila have done that herself though?


It seems to be overlooked that this woman who's allegedly trying to take her own life, has, allegedly also just killed her parents and her children. I'm imagining mental turmoil. Having PUSHED the trigger once -'coz if the gun is reversed, so too, must the trigger action be- and found herself still alive, I find myself thinking she'd have been all over the place. It's at this point where I COULD believe, providing all the other variables fit, that Jeremy made her shoot herself, but when she misfired, he finished her off with a second shot.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 16, 2019, 09:38:AM
She wouldn't have had to think about turning the gun upside down. Maybe she just found the right angle by twisting the gun, and that's how it ended up. Does the position of the gun on her body fit the theory that the gun was upside when it was last fired?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 16, 2019, 09:51:AM
I've been looking for videos of cartridge ejection, but I can't find anything for that type of rifle. I don't know at what force the empty cartridge is ejected, but they appear to spin. Is it possible that the cartridge hit the side of the bed and bounced over to the right of Sheila?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: guest7363 on November 16, 2019, 10:06:AM
I've been looking for videos of cartridge ejection, but I can't find anything for that type of rifle. I don't know at what force the empty cartridge is ejected, but they appear to spin. Is it possible that the cartridge hit the side of the bed and bounced over to the right of Sheila?
Caroline has one Kaldin, I’m sure she will put it up soon.  I’ve been looking for the picture showing the the trajectory of the bullets into the scull and the different angles.  The bed was about 12inches from the floor, so if the rifle was low on the body, would it hit it and I’m sure you will see that the ejected cases don’t eject with much force.

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4073

Have a look at this diagram of the twins, every casing goes to the right, they don’t travel far, we know the twins didn’t move, if a casing went up in the air and deflected anywhere, you would have thought one would have gone astray?  There’s a wall next to Nicholas, not one casing has bounced off the wall back over him? 
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: guest7363 on November 16, 2019, 10:10:AM
This is very interesting. It's possible that the gun had to be held upside down to get the right angle. Couldn't Sheila have done that herself though?
Possibly, Sheila wasn’t very coordinated though so I’m lead to believe?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: guest7363 on November 16, 2019, 10:11:AM
She wouldn't have had to think about turning the gun upside down. Maybe she just found the right angle by twisting the gun, and that's how it ended up. Does the position of the gun on her body fit the theory that the gun was upside when it was last fired?
I don’t think we can go on the position of the gun Kaldin, it was possibly moved for photographs?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: guest7363 on November 16, 2019, 10:19:AM
The shots were supposed to be fired one straight after the other, to have the casing fall on the other side, Sheila would have had to turn the gun around after having already been injured and manage these two angles.

(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4465)
If you look at the non fatal shot, in the picture across the neck, it’s more in line with the rifle straight to the neck, the fatal shot is more in line with the rifle laid across the body?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 16, 2019, 10:31:AM
Caroline has one Kaldin, I’m sure she will put it up soon.  I’ve been looking for the picture showing the the trajectory of the bullets into the scull and the different angles.  The bed was about 12inches from the floor, so if the rifle was low on the body, would it hit it and I’m sure you will see that the ejected cases don’t eject with much force.

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4073

Have a look at this diagram of the twins, every casing goes to the right, they don’t travel far, we know the twins didn’t move, if a casing went up in the air and deflected anywhere, you would have thought one would have gone astray?  There’s a wall next to Nicholas, not one casing has bounced off the wall back over him?

The cartriges are indeed all to the right, but they are quite widely spaced. Some appear to have spin forwards, and others haven't.

Could the final bullet for Sheila have bounced off the bedside table?

I also looked at the trajectory of that final bullet, and it ended up in the left parietal lobe, so the shot was slightly angled from just to the right of her chin to the left side of her brain. That is consistent with the position of her head when her body was found. I do think it's a strange angle tbh.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Adam on November 16, 2019, 10:41:AM
https://youtu.be/sMUrBhYpduY

Says here the OS are saying Sheila shot herself downstairs.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 16, 2019, 10:46:AM
https://youtu.be/sMUrBhYpduY

Says here the OS are saying Sheila shot herself downstairs.

That's clearly not the case. It's a bit of a red herring IMO.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: David1819 on November 16, 2019, 10:56:AM
According to the pathologist, Sheila was sitting up when both shots were inflicted.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 16, 2019, 11:00:AM
According to the pathologist, Sheila was sitting up when both shots were inflicted.

Partially sitting up and leaning slightly to the right. He deduced that from the blood stains. Anyone can have a look at that and work out her position when she was shot.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 16, 2019, 11:18:AM
After a night of fierce shooting and up and down stairs I'm not surprised that cartridges were askew as her whole body would have been in such a disordered state that she'd have had to have sat down in order to  steady herself to fire the rifle for the last time. She'd made sure there'd been two bullets in case the first one mis-fired.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: David1819 on November 16, 2019, 11:21:AM
Partially sitting up and leaning slightly to the right. He deduced that from the blood stains. Anyone can have a look at that and work out her position when she was shot.

Yes. I was only pointing this out because Justice was implying the shot through the chin was inflicted when she was laying down.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 16, 2019, 11:21:AM
https://youtu.be/sMUrBhYpduY

Says here the OS are saying Sheila shot herself downstairs.


Something which may have been filched from what has been posted here and has her running all over the house -complete with shattered vertebrae!!- playing hide and seek with police.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 16, 2019, 11:35:AM
I believe this has come up before some time ago but, the Anschutz being a semi-automatic delivered a new shell into the chamber after the previous bullet had fired. During this process the fired shell casing is ejected from the weapon from the right hand side and had Sheila killed herself 'both' should have been found on 'her' left hand side as she lay on her back. However, the casings related to Sheila, were found both on her left (close to her head - not immediately obvious) and to her right (some distance from her body). As seen in the following diagram labelled DRH1 and DRH 2

(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4470)

If Sheila shot herself, how did one of the casings end up on her right side?
initially found or later discovered??? If you don't get where im coming from I will happily divulge
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 16, 2019, 11:35:AM
Yes. I was only pointing this out because Justice was implying the shot through the chin was inflicted when she was laying down.

I see what you mean. I think we can work out for ourselves what position she was in when the bullets were fired - based on the flow of blood.

Dr Vanezis did say that she would have immediately laid back after the second bullet. It's very difficult to imagine the position she was in beforehand. Was she sort of sitting up but leaning backwards? That's quite difficult unless you have very strong stomach muscles. She can't have been leaning on the bedside cabinet.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: guest7363 on November 16, 2019, 12:09:PM
According to the pathologist, Sheila was sitting up when both shots were inflicted.
I can only go by this final picture of Sheila David, if we presume Sheila never moved and the shots were fired quickly after each other, there is no way she was sitting upright and imagine someone trying to kill them self with their head pressed into the cabinet,  their chin would drop forward and touch their chest?

After firing one shot, it would be very very difficult for Sheila  to lift the chin to administer the more under the chin shot?

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4308
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 16, 2019, 12:12:PM
I can only go by this final picture of Sheila David, if we presume Sheila never moved and the shots were fired quickly after each other, there is no way she was sitting upright and imagine someone trying to kill them self with their head pressed into the cabinet,  their chin would drop forward and touch their chest?

After firing one shot, it would be very very difficult for Sheila  to lift the chin to administer the more under the chin shot?

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4308

She could have shot herself sitting up. For the second shot she would need to put her head right back to get the right angle, and she could have done that. I don't see how she could be "partially" sitting up though. When she fell back, the bedside cupboard was slightly in the way so her head went to the side.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: David1819 on November 16, 2019, 12:14:PM
I can only go by this final picture of Sheila David, if we presume Sheila never moved and the shots were fired quickly after each other, there is no way she was sitting upright and imagine someone trying to kill them self with their head pressed into the cabinet,  their chin would drop forward and touch their chest?

After firing one shot, it would be very very difficult for Sheila  to lift the chin to administer the more under the chin shot?

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4308

"Dr Vanezis gave evidence that the nature of the blood stains to the nightdress suggested that Sheila Caffell was sitting up when she received both injuries. After the second injury she would have immediately fallen back."

She must have been sitting up for a few seconds in order for that blood to run down the night dress

Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: guest7363 on November 16, 2019, 12:20:PM
She could have shot herself sitting up. For the second shot she would need to put her head right back to get the right angle, and she could have done that. I don't see how she could be "partially" sitting up though. When she fell back, the bedside cupboard was slightly in the way so her head went to the side.
Thats how I see it as well Kaldin.  There’s nothing to suggest she hit her head on the cabinet is there Kaldin falling back onto it?  I’ve not seen anything?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: guest7363 on November 16, 2019, 12:28:PM
"Dr Vanezis gave evidence that the nature of the blood stains to the nightdress suggested that Sheila Caffell was sitting up when she received both injuries. After the second injury she would have immediately fallen back."

She must have been sitting up for a few seconds in order for that blood to run down the night dress
What for both shots David?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 16, 2019, 12:29:PM
"Dr Vanezis gave evidence that the nature of the blood stains to the nightdress suggested that Sheila Caffell was sitting up when she received both injuries. After the second injury she would have immediately fallen back."

She must have been sitting up for a few seconds in order for that blood to run down the night dress

He actually said "partially sitting up".
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 16, 2019, 12:29:PM
initially found or later discovered??? If you don't get where im coming from I will happily divulge

Please divulge.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 16, 2019, 12:30:PM
Thats how I see it as well Kaldin.  There’s nothing to suggest she hit her head on the cabinet is there Kaldin falling back onto it?  I’ve not seen anything?

I haven't seen anything either, but she might have just clipped in and there would be no injury from banging her head. Also, her head might have fallen naturally to the right as Dr Vanesiz said she was leaning slightly to the right.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 16, 2019, 12:33:PM
I can only go by this final picture of Sheila David, if we presume Sheila never moved and the shots were fired quickly after each other, there is no way she was sitting upright and imagine someone trying to kill them self with their head pressed into the cabinet,  their chin would drop forward and touch their chest?

After firing one shot, it would be very very difficult for Sheila  to lift the chin to administer the more under the chin shot?

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4308

From her final position, how was she sitting up? There is nothing to support her body because she is too far down for the bedside table to have acted as support and there is nothing else she could have leaned against?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 16, 2019, 12:34:PM
"Dr Vanezis gave evidence that the nature of the blood stains to the nightdress suggested that Sheila Caffell was sitting up when she received both injuries. After the second injury she would have immediately fallen back."

She must have been sitting up for a few seconds in order for that blood to run down the night dress

The blood ran to the side.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 16, 2019, 12:36:PM
Whichever way yoy look at it, it's a problem.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 16, 2019, 12:49:PM
The blood ran to the side.

And downwards.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: guest7363 on November 16, 2019, 12:50:PM
I haven't seen anything either, but she might have just clipped in and there would be no injury from banging her head. Also, her head might have fallen naturally to the right as Dr Vanesiz said she was leaning slightly to the right.
I think the problem was Dr Vanesiz did his autopsy, believing it was suicide so this would have had some persuasion to his findings, he was always critical of the fact he should have been called to the scene.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 16, 2019, 12:52:PM
I think the problem was Dr Vanesiz did his autopsy, believing it was suicide so this would have had some persuasion to his findings, he was always critical of the fact he should have been called to the scene.

Yes, but he did make a statement later after Jeremy was arrested. There's nothing in that to suggest that Sheila was moved or that the gun must have been upside down.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: guest7363 on November 16, 2019, 01:25:PM
No, the rifle ejects from only one side, in order to have the casing eject to the right of Sheila, the rifle would have to be turned around or be held upside down. Plus the two shots are at completely different angles. Venezis thought she must have been sitting up - how can she have been sitting up from the angle she died in? Her head would have had to have been leaning uncomfortably against the bedside table or without support at all.

(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4315)
Vanezis says there were no further injuries to the head or neck, now if she had fell from a upright position it looks to me she would have hit her head on the cabinet, I could be wrong, but if she fell with her head to the side with a leaning to the right of her body, I don’t think her arm/hand would have rested as it did, it would have flopped back more away from the body?  Just a thought.

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4312
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: guest7363 on November 16, 2019, 01:27:PM
Vanezis says there were no further injuries to the head or neck, now if she had fell from a upright position it looks to me she would have hit her head on the cabinet, I could be wrong, but if she fell with her head to the side with a leaning to the right of her body, I don’t think her arm/hand would have rested as it did, it would have flopped back more away from the body?  Just a thought.

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4312
I also think the left hand is in a unnatural position for falling back?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 16, 2019, 02:28:PM
I also think the left hand is in a unnatural position for falling back?

As is the right, I doubt her hand would have stayed near the trigger once her body relaxed.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 16, 2019, 02:30:PM
And downwards.

It ran down as far as her armpit, if she had been sitting bolt upright, it would have been down her front.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 16, 2019, 02:32:PM
It ran down as far as her armpit, if she had been sitting bolt upright, it would have been down her front.

Perhaps it didn't have time to go any further. The shots were fired in fairly quick succession.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 16, 2019, 02:34:PM
Perhaps it didn't have time to go any further. The shots were fired in fairly quick succession.

How would she be sitting up and fall backwards without bashing her head?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: guest7363 on November 16, 2019, 02:36:PM
I also think the left hand is in a unnatural position for falling back?
I think I tried to explain that in my original post, but missed out the right hand 🙈
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 16, 2019, 02:41:PM
How would she be sitting up and fall backwards without bashing her head?

She might have been leaning to the right slightly, as Dr Vanezis said. The bullet went in at an angle, so she might have been inclining her head slightly to the right. In that case, her head could have just missed the cabinet, or she may well have hit her head but there was no visible sign of that at the post mortem.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 16, 2019, 02:57:PM
Very troubling vanesiz recorded a verdict suicide when confronted with two entry wounds. Although it's been proven it could have happen. In his professional capacity, it wouldn't be something that would first " jump out as a natural reaction would it....
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 16, 2019, 03:00:PM
Very troubling vanesiz recorded a verdict suicide when confronted with two entry wounds. Although it's been proven it could have happen. In his professional capacity, it wouldn't be something that would first " jump out as a natural reaction would it....

He pointed out in his statement that he was a bit concerned, but he had known it to happen before. To be fair, it is perfectly possible that Sheila shot herself twice.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 16, 2019, 03:05:PM
She might have been leaning to the right slightly, as Dr Vanezis said. The bullet went in at an angle, so she might have been inclining her head slightly to the right. In that case, her head could have just missed the cabinet, or she may well have hit her head but there was no visible sign of that at the post mortem.

So she chose the most uncomfortable position possible i order to end her final moments. You have to admit, it is difficult to reconcile all of the factors surrounding Sheila's position and the objects around her with suicide?

Two shots at two very different angles
Casings on either side
Position of the body not conducive to a sitting position
Hand still close to the trigger
The edge of the bible on top of her arm
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 16, 2019, 03:07:PM
So she chose the most uncomfortable position possible i order to end her final moments. You have to admit, it is difficult to reconcile all of the factors surrounding Sheila's position and the objects around her with suicide?

Two shots at two very different angles
Casings on either side
Position of the body not conducive to a sitting position
Hand still close to the trigger
The edge of the bible on top of her arm

I don't know that sitting up would be an uncomfortable position for her. She probably didn't lean or tip her head to the right on purpose.

What would be a comfortable position? Lying down? If she was shot by Jeremy, was she lying down or what? Why would she lie down?

The position of the Bible is a different issue.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 16, 2019, 03:15:PM
In all probability Sheila would have been moved because of the positioning of her body and no rifle was initially seen on the body.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 16, 2019, 03:29:PM
I don't know that sitting up would be an uncomfortable position for her. She probably didn't lean or tip her head to the right on purpose.

What would be a comfortable position? Lying down? If she was shot by Jeremy, was she lying down or what? Why would she lie down?

The position of the Bible is a different issue.

Vanezis as you stated earlier said she was 'partially sitting up' but none of the blood from her wounds has travelled down her front. There is no such trail, it all leads to the right side. How do you partially sit up with your head to the side and soot your self twice from two very different angles?

The bible is the same issue because how can it be leaning on top of her arm when she has used that arm to shoot herself? Also why would her hand still be on the trigger?

I doubt she would lie down but she might cower - like in a fetal position, so she would be on her side. It would be difficult for Jeremy to make the fatal shot with her in that position but easy to make the first shot which is almost 45 degrees. The second shot would be easy, because she would hardly be able to fight him off. This might also explain the large blood stain on the carpet, just visible under the bible.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 16, 2019, 03:29:PM
In all probability Sheila would have been moved because of the positioning of her body and no rifle was initially seen on the body.

Read the raid teams statements Lookout!
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 16, 2019, 03:35:PM
Vanezis as you stated earlier said she was 'partially sitting up' but none of the blood from her wounds has travelled down her front. There is no such trail, it all leads to the right side. How do you partially sit up with your head to the side and soot your self twice from two very different angles?

The bible is the same issue because how can it be leaning on top of her arm when she has used that arm to shoot herself? Also why would her hand still be on the trigger?

I doubt she would lie down but she might cower - like in a fetal position, so she would be on her side. It would be difficult for Jeremy to make the fatal shot with her in that position but easy to make the first shot which is almost 45 degrees. The second shot would be easy, because she would hardly be able to fight him off. This might also explain the large blood stain on the carpet, just visible under the bible.

There is blood going down the front, as I said before. It's also going to the right. If the blood came from the first shot, as it must have done, and she was shot (or shot herself) seconds later, she would have fallen back straight away, slightly leaning to the right, so the blood then went under her armpit and side. If she had been lying down when she was shot, the blood would have all gone to the right of her neck.

I think Vanezis was merely going on how that blood behaved. I find it hard to believe she was sitting up but leaning backwards at the same time.

If she was in a foetal position, I can't see how Jeremy could shoot her in the neck at all. Even if he did, she would have had to be on her left side and the blood would have run to her left, which it didn't do.

Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 16, 2019, 03:37:PM
There is blood going down the front, as I said before. It's also going to the right. If the blood came from the first shot, as it must have done, and she was shot (or shot herself) seconds later, she would have fallen back straight away, slightly leaning to the right, so the blood then went under her armpit and side. If she had been lying down when she was shot, the blood would have all gone to the right of her neck.

I think Vanezis was merely going on how that blood behaved. I find it hard to believe she was sitting up but leaning backwards at the same time.

If she was in a foetal position, I can't see how Jeremy could shoot her in the neck at all. Even if he did, she would have had to be on her left side and the blood would have run to her left, which it didn't do.

Why would she have to be on her left side?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 16, 2019, 03:47:PM
Why would she have to be on her left side?

The bullet entered her neck towards the right side. He wouldn't have been able to shoot her there if she was curled up on her right side.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 16, 2019, 03:47:PM
She could have been on top of the bed after the first shot ? Hence the drips on her arm as she's got ready for the second shot,  sliding off the bed and landing on her backside against the cabinet, awkwardly. For all we know, that second shot could have inadvertently gone off if she was gripping the rifle.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 16, 2019, 03:53:PM
Please divulge.
contamination of the scene
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 16, 2019, 05:20:PM
contamination of the scene

The casing in question was spotted by the first raid team member that entered the bedroom. No one had been in the house to contaminate it at that venture.

Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 16, 2019, 05:32:PM
The casing in question was spotted by the first raid team member that entered the bedroom. No one had been in the house to contaminate it at that venture.
I notice in Collins statement he makes a few references to " I " " and " we" do we know how many officers in total entered that house at that time? Not just the house but the exact sequence of what rooms were accessed and what took place? And who entered etc etc
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 16, 2019, 05:33:PM
The casing in question was spotted by the first raid team member that entered the bedroom. No one had been in the house to contaminate it at that venture.

He doesn't say where the cartridge was though.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 16, 2019, 05:34:PM
I notice in Collins statement he makes a few references to " I " " and " we" do we know how many officers in total entered that house at that time? Not just the house but the exact sequence of what rooms were accessed and what took place? And who entered etc etc

Raid team statements are here http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/board,11.0.html
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: guest7363 on November 16, 2019, 05:35:PM
I notice in Collins statement he makes a few references to " I " " and " we" do we know how many officers in total entered that house at that time? Not just the house but the exact sequence of what rooms were accessed and what took place? And who entered etc etc
Collins and Delgado were the first two in the main bedroom, that’s who he is referring to when he says we.  You have to remember the statement is more or less parrot fashion for both of them, I think it was virtually one singed by others?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 16, 2019, 05:37:PM
He doesn't say where the cartridge was though.

He said he saw the casing and the bible, he had to have been talking about DH1 to the right of Sheila because DH2 wasn't found until later when the PB bird took photographs and SOCO were collecting evidence.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: guest7363 on November 16, 2019, 05:40:PM
He doesn't say where the cartridge was though.
It must have been the one next to the bible Kaldin, DRH2 was found later.

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5817.0;attach=37840
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 16, 2019, 05:43:PM
OK, it's clear now where the cartridge was.

I don't think it got moved anyway. If it had been on the left of Sheila where it should have been, it wouldn't have got moved by accident, and there was no reason for anyone to deliberately move it.

I noticed that the ejection bit of the gun is towards the top of the gun, although it's on the right. It's possible that the gun didn't actually have to be upside down, just turned slightly.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: guest7363 on November 16, 2019, 05:49:PM
OK, it's clear now where the cartridge was.

I don't think it got moved anyway. If it had been on the left of Sheila where it should have been, it wouldn't have got moved by accident, and there was no reason for anyone to deliberately move it.

I noticed that the ejection bit of the gun is towards the top of the gun, although it's on the right. It's possible that the gun didn't actually have to be upside down, just turned slightly.
How I understand it Kaldin, any upward movement from ejection is very limited?   Having said that, surely the police would have seen a casing either side of Sheila.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 16, 2019, 06:17:PM
Not really and Jeremy was free to move around.
he wouldn't be moving around though freely would he. He would have more or less had to grab hold of her to administer the fatal shot.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 16, 2019, 06:27:PM
he wouldn't be moving around though freely would he. He would have more or less had to grab hold of her to administer the fatal shot.

Exactly. I find it quite implausible that he managed to get her into a position where he could shoot her so accurately. I know the first bullet didn't kill her but it was vaguely in the right place.

For a start, did he really make her sit down on the floor on Nevill's side of the bed? If so, why? Why would she sit down there by herself and wait for him to stuff a gun into her neck and shoot her?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 16, 2019, 06:37:PM
Exactly. I find it quite implausible that he managed to get her into a position where he could shoot her so accurately. I know the first bullet didn't kill her but it was vaguely in the right place.

For a start, did he really make her sit down on the floor on Nevill's side of the bed? If so, why? Why would she sit down there by herself and wait for him to stuff a gun into her neck and shoot her?

Accurately? It wasn't accurate, hence the two shots! If someone had a gun in your face, you would do pretty much as told too.

It looks to me as though she was either going to or coming from the twins room. Like I said before, I think she was cowering not just sitting there.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 16, 2019, 06:51:PM
Accurately? It wasn't accurate, hence the two shots! If someone had a gun in your face, you would do pretty much as told too.

It looks to me as though she was either going to or coming from the twins room. Like I said before, I think she was cowering not just sitting there.

It was accurate under the circumstances. I don't suppose Jeremy had shot someone through their mouth before, so it was pretty close.

How did she shoot her in the neck if she was cowering?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 16, 2019, 07:30:PM
Collins and Delgado were the first two in the main bedroom, that’s who he is referring to when he says we.  You have to remember the statement is more or less parrot fashion for both of them, I think it was virtually one singed by others?
remember though before we take these statements at face value and for real worth, we have to understand that they didn't discover a blood stained silencer, in a cupboard... Remember none of us were that night, and I've noticed that one of those officers statements wasn't even signed by that said officer. In reality, the statements in my opinion are all collective and don't represent a clear picture
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 16, 2019, 07:36:PM
Accurately? It wasn't accurate, hence the two shots! If someone had a gun in your face, you would do pretty much as told too.

It looks to me as though she was either going to or coming from the twins room. Like I said before, I think she was cowering not just sitting there.
the prosecution claimed at Chelmsford in 86 that bamber staged a suicide. The two shot scenario suggests that Jeremy could not maintain Shelia, if a person is shot twice when your attempting to make it look like a suicide. You can safely say your initial plan of administrating one shot has not gone to plan.hence if we are to believe the two shots we would anticipate a big struggle. I've referenced it before previously, Shelia would be fighting for her life, Jeremy at the minimum would have scratch marks on his face as that is the most logical place to strike
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 16, 2019, 07:42:PM
the prosecution claimed at Chelmsford in 86 that bamber staged a suicide. The two shot scenario suggests that Jeremy could not maintain Shelia, if a person is shot twice when your attempting to make it look like a suicide. You can safely say your initial plan of administrating one shot has not gone to plan.hence if we are to believe the two shots we would anticipate a big struggle. I've referenced it before previously, Shelia would be fighting for her life, Jeremy at the minimum would have scratch marks on his face as that is the most logical place to strike

Once she had been shot once, she wasn't going anywhere or scratching anyone.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: guest7363 on November 16, 2019, 07:48:PM
remember though before we take these statements at face value and for real worth, we have to understand that they didn't discover a blood stained silencer, in a cupboard... Remember none of us were that night, and I've noticed that one of those officers statements wasn't even signed by that said officer. In reality, the statements in my opinion are all collective and don't represent a clear picture
I honestly don’t think that the Raid team would have even bothered to look for one, their job was to make it safe.  The rest of the investigation, they admit they read the scene wrong, they read it as Jeremy intended it to be read, why look for a silencer at this early stage, it was murder suicide, shot people don’t shoot themselves hide the silencer then shoot themselves again.  There was only Stan Jones who had other opinions at the early stage.  Now days it would be totally different, everything would have been looked into, then, it wasn’t and it didn’t used to happen I’m afraid.  Lots of lessons were probably learned after, pathologists and fingerprints and ballistics and more all attend now.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 16, 2019, 07:50:PM
the prosecution claimed at Chelmsford in 86 that bamber staged a suicide. The two shot scenario suggests that Jeremy could not maintain Shelia, if a person is shot twice when your attempting to make it look like a suicide. You can safely say your initial plan of administrating one shot has not gone to plan.hence if we are to believe the two shots we would anticipate a big struggle. I've referenced it before previously, Shelia would be fighting for her life, Jeremy at the minimum would have scratch marks on his face as that is the most logical place to strike


Surely such would depend on how close to him he allowed her to get, and the length of her arms versus the length of his arms?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: guest7363 on November 16, 2019, 07:52:PM
remember though before we take these statements at face value and for real worth, we have to understand that they didn't discover a blood stained silencer, in a cupboard... Remember none of us were that night, and I've noticed that one of those officers statements wasn't even signed by that said officer. In reality, the statements in my opinion are all collective and don't represent a clear picture
Thats what I meant, one statement signed by others
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 16, 2019, 07:57:PM
Thats what I meant, one statement signed by others


We tend to judge their failings by today's standards. They probably use the case, now, as an example of how NOT to.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 16, 2019, 08:00:PM
Once she had been shot once, she wasn't going anywhere or scratching anyone.
so why two shots then? If Jeremy had killed her he could swan off back to goldhanger safe in the knowledge she would ultimately bleed to death....
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 16, 2019, 08:02:PM
I honestly don’t think that the Raid team would have even bothered to look for one, their job was to make it safe.  The rest of the investigation, they admit they read the scene wrong, they read it as Jeremy intended it to be read, why look for a silencer at this early stage, it was murder suicide, shot people don’t shoot themselves hide the silencer then shoot themselves again.  There was only Stan Jones who had other opinions at the early stage.  Now days it would be totally different, everything would have been looked into, then, it wasn’t and it didn’t used to happen I’m afraid.  Lots of lessons were probably learned after, pathologists and fingerprints and ballistics and more all attend now.
with respect, you don't need to actively look for one. I'm not suggesting the plan was look for a silencer with blood staining. But come on? Even by 85 standards you'd expect even an hour's sweep of the house would discover it???
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 16, 2019, 08:03:PM
so why two shots then? If Jeremy had killed her he could swan off back to goldhanger safe in the knowledge she would ultimately bleed to death....

Because she wasn't dead after the first one, he didn't know she would bleed to death.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 16, 2019, 08:08:PM
so why two shots then? If Jeremy had killed her he could swan off back to goldhanger safe in the knowledge she would ultimately bleed to death....


Without certain anatomical knowledge, how could he be sure she'd bleed to death? He COULD have gone home but he'd probably have been wondering if she was dead or if she'd miraculously recovered or simply moved from the tableau he'd created?  If she had, he'd have been up to his neck in dodo when the police arrived.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: David1819 on November 16, 2019, 08:10:PM
Exactly. I find it quite implausible that he managed to get her into a position where he could shoot her so accurately. I know the first bullet didn't kill her but it was vaguely in the right place.

For a start, did he really make her sit down on the floor on Nevill's side of the bed? If so, why? Why would she sit down there by herself and wait for him to stuff a gun into her neck and shoot her?

Thats what Vanezis thought. He thought Sheila would have to be on drugs in order for him to do it.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 16, 2019, 08:12:PM
I honestly don’t think that the Raid team would have even bothered to look for one, their job was to make it safe.  The rest of the investigation, they admit they read the scene wrong, they read it as Jeremy intended it to be read, why look for a silencer at this early stage, it was murder suicide, shot people don’t shoot themselves hide the silencer then shoot themselves again.  There was only Stan Jones who had other opinions at the early stage.  Now days it would be totally different, everything would have been looked into, then, it wasn’t and it didn’t used to happen I’m afraid.  Lots of lessons were probably learned after, pathologists and fingerprints and ballistics and more all attend now.

Nobody would think that Sheila had shot herself, hidden the silencer, and then shot herself again anyway. If she did hide it, it was before she shot herself the first time.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 16, 2019, 08:16:PM
Because she wasn't dead after the first one, he didn't know she would bleed to death.
so she could still be able to scratch and muster up some fight for life then. I.e by struggling, scratching etc. Who was going to come to her aid in the remote early farmhouse in the early hours.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 16, 2019, 08:17:PM
She was either rapidly losing a lot of blood and bleeding to death Caroline, or the first shot caused not devastating damage. There isn't a happy medium
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 16, 2019, 08:19:PM
Nobody would think that Sheila had shot herself, hidden the silencer, and then shot herself again anyway. If she did hide it, it was before she shot herself the first time.


Which might make sense if she's have been trying to hide what had happened, but as she was intending to shoot herself, WHY hide the evidence that she'd shot the others? Much easier, surely, to shoot the last victim, toss the silencer to one side and turn the gun on herself, rather than get on her hands and knees and hide it at the back of the understair wedge?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 16, 2019, 08:20:PM
so she could still be able to scratch and muster up some fight for life then. I.e by struggling, scratching etc. Who was going to come to her aid in the remote early farmhouse in the early hours.


How was Jeremy going to let her get within a foot of him?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Adam on November 16, 2019, 08:24:PM
Thats what Vanezis thought. He thought Sheila would have to be on drugs in order for him to do it.

She was.

Under sedation. I have given you the COA source.

Anyway Sheila was a very light woman. Bamber was a man who had just brutally beaten & shot a 6.4 15 stone man. Sheila was to be no problem.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: David1819 on November 16, 2019, 08:24:PM
Although these illustrations are crude, this seems like the most probable scenario to me. One going over and past her shoulder while the other goes off at a different angle.

(https://i.ibb.co/2WFCdfV/pos2.png)

(https://i.ibb.co/vPfHcxV/pos1.png)
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: David1819 on November 16, 2019, 08:25:PM
She was.

Under sedation. I have given you the COA source.

Anyway Sheila was a very light woman. Bamber was a man who had just brutally beaten & shot a 6.4 15 stone man. Sheila was to be no problem.

Not therapeutic drugs Adam.  ::)
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Adam on November 16, 2019, 08:28:PM
Nobody would think that Sheila had shot herself, hidden the silencer, and then shot herself again anyway. If she did hide it, it was before she shot herself the first time.

Do you believe the relatives used Sheila's period blood which was in a bucket of water to fabricate the silencer?

That has been suggested.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 16, 2019, 08:28:PM

Which might make sense if she's have been trying to hide what had happened, but as she was intending to shoot herself, WHY hide the evidence that she'd shot the others? Much easier, surely, to shoot the last victim, toss the silencer to one side and turn the gun on herself, rather than get on her hands and knees and hide it at the back of the understair wedge?

Yes, it would be easier, and it's what I would expect. However, she might not have tried to shoot herself straightaway, she might have tried downstairs but been unable to reach, so she took the silencer off. She might have hesitated and wandered around a bit, then put the silencer away, gone upstairs and shot herself.

I know it all sounds unlikely, but it's not impossible.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 16, 2019, 08:29:PM
Do you believe the relatives used Sheila's period blood which was in a bucket of water to fabricate the silencer?

That has been suggested.

Not really. I don't think they would have thought of it as a way to frame Jeremy.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 16, 2019, 08:30:PM

How was Jeremy going to let her get within a foot of him?
how does it make it appear a suicide from shooting from afar. Look it at it logically, if he fired from distance he could easily misfire. Hit her in the shoulder. Even if he has her at gunpoint from a close distance. It's not safe enough for him, she could move he could chip her. No no no. If Bamber is gulity he need to hold Shelia ( reference the struggle) he needs to make it look a genuine suicide and he needs to hold her in a said position to do that. He only had to shoot her once. Nobody was going to come her to aid. She would bleed to death
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 16, 2019, 08:31:PM
She was.

Under sedation. I have given you the COA source.

Anyway Sheila was a very light woman. Bamber was a man who had just brutally beaten & shot a 6.4 15 stone man. Sheila was to be no problem.
so why the need to administer two shots then? He could have easily killed her with one since he dominated and overpowered her with ease. Why two shots ???
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Adam on November 16, 2019, 08:33:PM
Not really. I don't think they would have thought of it as a way to frame Jeremy.

I agree.

Another suggestion is the 'treacherous' Stan Jones fabricated the silencer & then asked the relatives to say they found it.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Adam on November 16, 2019, 08:38:PM
so why the need to administer two shots then? He could have easily killed her with one since he dominated and overpowered her with ease. Why two shots ???

He did nearly kill her with one.

He probably felt he did well only needing two. After needing 7 & 8 for June & Nevill.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 16, 2019, 08:39:PM
how does it make it appear a suicide from shooting from afar. Look it at it logically, if he fired from distance he could easily misfire. Hit her in the shoulder. Even if he has her at gunpoint from a close distance. It's not safe enough for him, she could move he could chip her. No no no. If Bamber is gulity he need to hold Shelia ( reference the struggle) he needs to make it look a genuine suicide and he needs to hold her in a said position to do that. He only had to shoot her once. Nobody was going to come her to aid. She would bleed to death


At the very least they was the length -distance- of the barrel between them, and yes, I think she MAY have moved, hence the chipped vertebrae, but she was mortally wounded and couldn't put up much by way of resistance, making the second shot more accurate.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 16, 2019, 08:42:PM
I agree.

Another suggestion is the 'treacherous' Stan Jones fabricated the silencer & then asked the relatives to say they found it.

I can't see his motive for doing that, and again, I don't think it would occur to him to frame Jeremy that way.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Adam on November 16, 2019, 08:46:PM
I can't see his motive for doing that, and again, I don't think it would occur to him to frame Jeremy that way.

I agree.

Sheila did receive a contact shot in a location which would produce back splatter.

Do you think the blood could have got into the silencer that way?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: David1819 on November 16, 2019, 08:47:PM
Not really. I don't think they would have thought of it as a way to frame Jeremy.

Then why did they give the silencer to the police and alert them to the scratches under the mantle shelf?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 16, 2019, 08:49:PM
If it had been JB's intention to pass off the tragedies as murder suicide why would he have fired two shots into Sheila's neck ? He's not that daft unless he wanted to be found out.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: guest7363 on November 16, 2019, 08:49:PM
with respect, you don't need to actively look for one. I'm not suggesting the plan was look for a silencer with blood staining. But come on? Even by 85 standards you'd expect even an hour's sweep of the house would discover it???
I honestly don’t know, they got slated for the investigation, rightly or wrongly, I don’t think they did it on purpose.  I think there was a clash between Stan and Taff, Taff was adamant it was murder suicide, maybe the only person you can blame at this early stage would be Taff, he was the lead investigator, but Bamber supporters praise him.  The judge said the  investigation was lacking in care and thoroughness, they got christened the Clouseau squad, which still stuck with Essex police when I was down there
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 16, 2019, 08:50:PM
I agree.

Sheila did receive a contact shot in a location which would produce back splatter.

Do you think the blood could have got into the silencer that way?

It could have. On the other hand, they couldn't find Sheila's DNA in the silencer in 2002, and it's possible that the blood in the silencer was not Sheila's blood.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Adam on November 16, 2019, 08:51:PM
Then why did they give the silencer to the police and alert them to the scratches under the mantle shelf?

Because they found a silencer with blood & paint on.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 16, 2019, 08:53:PM
If it had been JB's intention to pass off the tragedies as murder suicide why would he have fired two shots into Sheila's neck ? He's not that daft unless he wanted to be found out.


But it would never have been his intention to fire two shots -after all, it not the classic suicide, is it?- but he was left with no choice because he couldn't risk her bleeding to death slowly.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: David1819 on November 16, 2019, 08:56:PM
Because they found a silencer with blood & paint on.

How did they know it was blood and how did they know where the paint came from?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 16, 2019, 08:58:PM
Then why did they give the silencer to the police and alert them to the scratches under the mantle shelf?

Presumably because they found blood and paint on the silencer.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Adam on November 16, 2019, 09:00:PM
It could have. On the other hand, they couldn't find Sheila's DNA in the silencer in 2002, and it's possible that the blood in the silencer was not Sheila's blood.

Oh dear.

Whose blood do you think it was?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 16, 2019, 09:04:PM
Oh dear.

Whose blood do you think it was?

It could have been Nevill's and June's blood.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: guest7363 on November 16, 2019, 09:08:PM
Although these illustrations are crude, this seems like the most probable scenario to me. One going over and past her shoulder while the other goes off at a different angle.

(https://i.ibb.co/2WFCdfV/pos2.png)

(https://i.ibb.co/vPfHcxV/pos1.png)
I would hazard a guess that no other shell casing has jumped to left from a right ejection port like that in this crime scene.  Every shot to the twins and every case ejects to the right, yet your diagram miraculously has it jump about a foot in the air and about four foot to the left.  Every other casing goes to the right but stays near the body?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 16, 2019, 09:12:PM

But it would never have been his intention to fire two shots -after all, it not the classic suicide, is it?- but he was left with no choice because he couldn't risk her bleeding to death slowly.





With the first shot she wouldn't have bled to death as it hit the jawbone, which the bullet broke on impact and spread into the soft tissue and not an artery.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Adam on November 16, 2019, 09:13:PM
It could have been Nevill's and June's blood.

Mr Hayward, the forensic scientist said that they showed that the blood could have come from Sheila Caffell but not from any of the other individuals involved.

Mr. Hayward said that there was a possibility that the blood could be a mixture of blood from more than one person and if it was, a mixture of blood from Nevill Bamber and June Bamber could account for the findings in the grouping tests.

However he judged that possibility to be a "remote" one.

--------

I don't believe June or Nevill received any contact shots. Espescially where there was high blood flow.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: David1819 on November 16, 2019, 09:13:PM
I would hazard a guess that no other shell casing has jumped to left from a right ejection port like that in this crime scene.  Every shot to the twins and ever case ejects to the right, yet your diagram miraculously has it jump about a foot in the air and about four foot to the left.  Every other casing goes to the right but stays near the body?

Since the gun in my pictures is positioned upside-down the ejection port on the right is now facing left.

This gun is has a deflector plate on the ejection port. This makes the cases bounce forward at an angle. Its designed that way.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: guest7363 on November 16, 2019, 09:14:PM
Since the gun in my pictures is positioned upside-down the ejection port on the right is now facing left.

This gun is has a deflector plate on the ejection port. This makes the cases bounce forward at an angle. Its designed that way.
How come none of the twins Shots have done?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: guest7363 on November 16, 2019, 09:16:PM
Since the gun in my pictures is positioned upside-down the ejection port on the right is now facing left.

This gun is has a deflector plate on the ejection port. This makes the cases bounce forward at an angle. Its designed that way.
Oh, so your gun is upside down, sorry I thought it was upright
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Adam on November 16, 2019, 09:16:PM
It could have been Nevill's and June's blood.

Nevill - No contact shots. 

June - No contact shots. 

Daniel - No contact shots. 

Nicholas - Contact shot into head. Location very unlikely to cause blood back splatter. 

Sheila - Contact shot into neck. Location very likely to result in blood back splatter as testified by Malcolm Fletcher. 

--------------------

Obviously it could only be Sheila's blood in the silencer. The 'remote possibility' of it being a mixture of Nevill's & June's is because there were 15 shots fired into them. Some from close range. 

Malcolm Fletcher said he expected there to be back splatter from Sheila's neck contact shot. And there was blood on the silencer but not the rifle nozzle
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 16, 2019, 09:17:PM




With the first shot she wouldn't have bled to death as it hit the jawbone, which the bullet broke on impact and spread into the soft tissue and not an artery.


Yes, she would, Lookout. It was a mortal wound. Most of the bleeding was internal. It would have become fatal, just not immediately so. This from one of the doctor's reports, NOT something I've made up.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 16, 2019, 09:27:PM
Nevill - No contact shots.

June - No contact shots.


Daniel - No contact shots.

Nicholas - Contact shot into head. Location very unlikely to cause blood back splatter.

Sheila - Contact shot into neck. Location very likely to result in blood back splatter as testified by Malcolm Fletcher.

--------------------

Obviously it could only be Sheila's blood in the silencer. The 'remote possibility' of it being a mixture of Nevill's & June's is because there were 15 shots fired into them. Some from close range.

Malcolm Fletcher said he expected there to be back splatter from Sheila's neck contact shot. And there was blood on the silencer but not the rifle nozzle

Not necessarily true.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: David1819 on November 16, 2019, 09:30:PM
Not necessarily true.

Ironically it is few of the only things in that statement that is true.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Adam on November 16, 2019, 09:35:PM
Not necessarily true.

It is all in the COA.

It was not a powerful rifle. It really could only be a contact shot into Sheila's neck which would cause the back splatter.

Shots from inches or feet away into other parts of the body is a certain no no.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 16, 2019, 09:38:PM

Yes, she would, Lookout. It was a mortal wound. Most of the bleeding was internal. It would have become fatal, just not immediately so. This from one of the doctor's reports, NOT something I've made up.




Okay, all the more reason that there was no need for a second shot then ?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Adam on November 16, 2019, 09:39:PM
458. 

If the shot to Shelia Caffell, which was a contact shot to the throat, had been fired without the moderator in place, he would have expected to find blood in the barrel of the gun. 

If the moderator was attached it was "virtually certain" that Sheila Caffell's blood would get into the moderator. There was, he said "a very slight possibility of it not happening, but very slight".
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 16, 2019, 09:46:PM



Okay, all the more reason that there was no need for a second shot then ?



 God, that's hard! How was Jeremy to judge how long it would take her to die? How was he to know that she even WOULD die? I believe he wanted her to die, but I don't believe he wanted her to die slowly and distressed. I don't believe that to have been part of the plan. Leaving the emotional stuff -my own thoughts- aside, how could he go home, leaving her alive, and call the police. For all he knew, she might still have been alive when they got there.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 16, 2019, 09:55:PM


 God, that's hard! How was Jeremy to judge how long it would take her to die? How was he to know that she even WOULD die? I believe he wanted her to die, but I don't believe he wanted her to die slowly and distressed. I don't believe that to have been part of the plan. Leaving the emotional stuff -my own thoughts- aside, how could he go home, leaving her alive, and call the police. For all he knew, she might still have been alive when they got there.





Because it's said that JB was a good shot, and because Sheila was the only one left, he'd have made sure that one bullet would have sufficed and he'd have known how and where to fire it to have killed her outright.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 16, 2019, 10:03:PM




Because it's said that JB was a good shot, and because Sheila was the only one left, he'd have made sure that one bullet would have sufficed and he'd have known how and where to fire it to have killed her outright.

Lookout, stuff happens. With the best will -and expertise- in the world, things go wrong. Your faith in Jeremy's abilities/capabilities is overwhelming, but all it would have taken is the slightest movement of her head and it could have thrown him -momentarily- off guard. The accuracy of the others wasn't SO important. THIS one was imperative and it's often at that moment that things go wrong.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 16, 2019, 10:12:PM
Lookout, stuff happens. With the best will -and expertise- in the world, things go wrong. Your faith in Jeremy's abilities/capabilities is overwhelming, but all it would have taken is the slightest movement of her head and it could have thrown him -momentarily- off guard. The accuracy of the others wasn't SO important. THIS one was imperative and it's often at that moment that things go wrong.





Well, some say that Sheila was well sedated so there'd have been little or no movement, especially if she'd been lifted from her bed after being in a deep sleep ?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 16, 2019, 10:16:PM
After the second shot he may as well have rang the police himself from WHF and confessed there and then ?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 16, 2019, 10:31:PM




Well, some say that Sheila was well sedated so there'd have been little or no movement, especially if she'd been lifted from her bed after being in a deep sleep ?

Lookout, no one suggested she was comatose. There's a chasm of difference between mood stabilizers and chemical cashes.That
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 16, 2019, 10:34:PM
After the second shot he may as well have rang the police himself from WHF and confessed there and then ?

Not whilst he believed he had a good chance of getting away with it and he very nearly did.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 16, 2019, 10:54:PM
Not whilst he believed he had a good chance of getting away with it and he very nearly did.




JB's intelligent enough to know that he would never have fired two shots where one would have sufficed.This is why he blamed EP for having shot her when he knew about it outside WHF.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 16, 2019, 11:53:PM
so she could still be able to scratch and muster up some fight for life then. I.e by struggling, scratching etc. Who was going to come to her aid in the remote early farmhouse in the early hours.

After being shot in the throat - I believe not and had she done so, there would be more blood running down the front of her nightdress.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 16, 2019, 11:54:PM



JB's intelligent enough to know that he would never have fired two shots where one would have sufficed.This is why he blamed EP for having shot her when he knew about it outside WHF.

Nobody mentioned her being shot twice at that point and - he had no choice!
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 17, 2019, 12:15:AM
so why the need to administer two shots then? He could have easily killed her with one since he dominated and overpowered her with ease. Why two shots ???

He obviously tried to kill her with one, but she was still alive. He couldn't then leave and hope she would die - he had no choice!
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 17, 2019, 12:17:AM
I would hazard a guess that no other shell casing has jumped to left from a right ejection port like that in this crime scene.  Every shot to the twins and every case ejects to the right, yet your diagram miraculously has it jump about a foot in the air and about four foot to the left.  Every other casing goes to the right but stays near the body?

And I certainly dispute that the rifle would have been that high. Had she fallen from that height, she would have cracked he head on the bedside table and there would be signs of that.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 17, 2019, 12:20:AM




With the first shot she wouldn't have bled to death as it hit the jawbone, which the bullet broke on impact and spread into the soft tissue and not an artery.

Completely wrong!
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 17, 2019, 12:23:AM
Oh, so your gun is upside down, sorry I thought it was upright

It's just a drawing and an interpretation.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 17, 2019, 07:43:AM
After being shot in the throat - I believe not and had she done so, there would be more blood running down the front of her nightdress.
ok then Jane, so your saying that first shot would have rendered her incapable. She would be bleeding to death.vAll the other members in the house are are dead. Bamber would visually see her and know she would be absolutely helpless. So why does he fuck it up for himself? He does not need to shoot twice does he?. She wasn't moving anywhere? There was no other alternative for her after receiving that first contact wound of even leaving the bedroom. Remember this is a man who was trying to stage a suicide
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 17, 2019, 07:53:AM
He did nearly kill her with one.

He probably felt he did well only needing two. After needing 7 & 8 for June & Nevill.
you miss the point. Bamber was trying to stage it with Shelia. He had to make it look like " she had gone crazy" hence numerous shots to June , nevill et Al. But he had to make it look she had committed suicide. Let me ask you a question, you say " he very did nearly kill her with one shot" does that mean your take on it was bleeding to death and he could have gone back to goldhanger. Or do you believe Shelia would have been able to phone 999 for help? Someone is either dying, of they are only wounded and have fight left in them....
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 17, 2019, 08:09:AM
And I certainly dispute that the rifle would have been that high. Had she fallen from that height, she would have cracked he head on the bedside table and there would be signs of that.

I think that she could have been sitting up when the first shot happened, she then laid back rather than fall. Her head went to the right because of the cabinet. Then the second shot happened. I think that the blood on her nightdress was from the first shot. All the blood from the second shot appears to be going to the right.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 17, 2019, 08:11:AM
ok then Jane, so your saying that first shot would have rendered her incapable. She would be bleeding to death.vAll the other members in the house are are dead. Bamber would visually see her and know she would be absolutely helpless. So why does he fuck it up for himself? He does not need to shoot twice does he?. She wasn't moving anywhere? There was no other alternative for her after receiving that first contact wound of even leaving the bedroom. Remember this is a man who was trying to stage a suicide

It wouldn't have been guaranteed that she would die. If Jeremy did it, he couldn't leave her bleeding. If she lived long enough to tell the police that he shot her, he'd be stuffed.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 17, 2019, 08:16:AM



JB's intelligent enough to know that he would never have fired two shots where one would have sufficed.This is why he blamed EP for having shot her when he knew about it outside WHF.


Oh c'mon Lookout, get real! You endow JB with every super power known to man -AND more. He's NOT a God. He's subject to the same problems we all have with things beyond our control. Of COURSE he wouldn't "have fired two shots where one would have sufficed"!! He was greedy, not stupid. WHAT a clever rouse it was to blame police for her death. He'd have been fully aware that it hadn't been a text book kill. The two shots actually made it possible for him to shift the blame for it onto police.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 17, 2019, 08:18:AM
Jeremy doesn't need to blame the police, or anyone else. It's accepted that Sheila could have shot herself twice. Even Dr Vanezis said that.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 17, 2019, 08:29:AM
ok then Jane, so your saying that first shot would have rendered her incapable. She would be bleeding to death.vAll the other members in the house are are dead. Bamber would visually see her and know she would be absolutely helpless. So why does he fuck it up for himself? He does not need to shoot twice does he?. She wasn't moving anywhere? There was no other alternative for her after receiving that first contact wound of even leaving the bedroom. Remember this is a man who was trying to stage a suicide


I know she'd have -eventually- bled to death. Thanks to information you've learned here, 34 years on, YOU know she'd have -eventually- bled to death. Unless, like Lookout, you endow him with super human powers -or at least with some medical/surgical knowledge- how was he to know when, of even IF, she'd die? Look, other than this situation involved killing, it's not exactly unique. Every day, someone, somewhere is faced with a task hugely important to get right. They maybe experts in their field. They may have carried out the task previously but the day it becomes important, it goes wrong. For whatever reason, JB got it wrong and he had to fudge it.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 17, 2019, 08:32:AM
you miss the point. Bamber was trying to stage it with Shelia. He had to make it look like " she had gone crazy" hence numerous shots to June , nevill et Al. But he had to make it look she had committed suicide. Let me ask you a question, you say " he very did nearly kill her with one shot" does that mean your take on it was bleeding to death and he could have gone back to goldhanger. Or do you believe Shelia would have been able to phone 999 for help? Someone is either dying, of they are only wounded and have fight left in them....


What WE or anyone else believes, objectively, is irrelevant 34 years on. How was Jeremy to judge the situation, SUBjectively, 34 years back?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: guest7363 on November 17, 2019, 08:45:AM
It's just a drawing and an interpretation.
And an impossible interpretation as well.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 17, 2019, 08:51:AM

What WE or anyone else believes, objectively, is irrelevant 34 years on. How was Jeremy to judge the situation, SUBjectively, 34 years back?
stop getting over excited, capitals is not enhancing your argument. So take a breath....not meaning to be patronizing.....so let me get this right...according to you Bamber administers one close contact wound near fatal shot. He sees his sister bleeding profusely. He knows she is bleeding to death. So he would leave wouldn't he.....
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Adam on November 17, 2019, 08:52:AM
Not necessarily true.

It is good that you do not believe the crackpot thories that the relatives or the police fabricated the silencer.

You believe in the remote possibility that the blood is a mixture of June & Nevill's. Although neither recieved contact shots.

Why do you believe Sheila would put the silencer away in a box at the back of the gun cupboard?

Why was there no blood on the rifle barrel end. Sheila gave herself a contact shot in a location with high blood flow?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Adam on November 17, 2019, 08:56:AM

77.

Mr Hayward added in evidence that he would be very surprised to find blood from a person, who had not been shot with a contact or very close contact shot, inside the muzzle of the moderator.

He concluded that since (a) the blood inside the moderator belonged to the same group as Sheila Caffell and (b) there was no blood within the barrel of the rifle of the gun, that she had been shot whilst the moderator was fitted to the rifle.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 17, 2019, 09:01:AM
stop getting over excited, capitals is not enhancing your argument. So take a breath....not meaning to be patronizing.....so let me get this right...according to you Bamber administers one close contact wound near fatal shot. He sees his sister bleeding profusely. He knows she is bleeding to death. So he would leave wouldn't he.....



Actually, he probably doesn't see her "bleeding profusely". Because of the injury, most of the bleeding was internal. HOW would he now he's done enough to eventually kill her? It was decision time. We've all had them at some time............................Oh, and for the record, the capitals are for emphasis -whether or not you believe them to enhance my argument is of no moment- I write exactly how I speak.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 17, 2019, 09:04:AM
Jeremy doesn't need to blame the police, or anyone else. It's accepted that Sheila could have shot herself twice. Even Dr Vanezis said that.



Whether or not you think it was unnecessary for him to blame police, he did. I guess he wasn't certain that they'd accept a two shot suicide. Who of us would?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 17, 2019, 09:09:AM


Actually, he probably doesn't see her "bleeding profusely". Because of the injury, most of the bleeding was internal. HOW would he now he's done enough to eventually kill her? It was decision time. We've all had them at some time............................Oh, and for the record, the capitals are for emphasis -whether or not you believe them to enhance my argument is of no moment- I write exactly how I speak.
one shot would have been enough wouldn't it.....he would have left wouldn't he??? 
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 17, 2019, 09:12:AM

What WE or anyone else believes, objectively, is irrelevant 34 years on. How was Jeremy to judge the situation, SUBjectively, 34 years back?
i was asking Adam...
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 17, 2019, 09:15:AM
It is good that you do not believe the crackpot thories that the relatives or the police fabricated the silencer.

You believe in the remote possibility that the blood is a mixture of June & Nevill's. Although neither recieved contact shots.

Why do you believe Sheila would put the silencer away in a box at the back of the gun cupboard?

Why was there no blood on the rifle barrel end. Sheila gave herself a contact shot in a location with high blood flow?

June and Nevill received shots at close range, which might have been close enough. When the silencer was tested for DNA later, it couldn't be established that Sheila's DNA was in the silencer, but June's DNA was found, and the DNA from a male person. Now this DNA wasn't necessarily from blood, but can you suggest how else June's DNA got in there?

Re blood on the barrel end, the barrel could have slipped before Sheila started bleeding from the bullet wound.

Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 17, 2019, 09:16:AM


Actually, he probably doesn't see her "bleeding profusely". Because of the injury, most of the bleeding was internal. HOW would he now he's done enough to eventually kill her? It was decision time. We've all had them at some time............................Oh, and for the record, the capitals are for emphasis -whether or not you believe them to enhance my argument is of no moment- I write exactly how I speak.

The use of capitals in that manner is considered to be shouting. It does come across as a bit aggressive. You could use italic or bold instead maybe?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 17, 2019, 09:17:AM
one shot would have been enough wouldn't it.....he would have left wouldn't he???


Certainly. IF he'd have been 100% certain that it had been enough, otherwise..........................? When it comes to being excited, you certainly seem to be rather agitated regarding the two shots. It happened. Move on.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 17, 2019, 09:17:AM


Whether or not you think it was unnecessary for him to blame police, he did. I guess he wasn't certain that they'd accept a two shot suicide. Who of us would?

He knew they accepted it though. When did he blame the police?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: guest7363 on November 17, 2019, 09:21:AM
stop getting over excited, capitals is not enhancing your argument. So take a breath....not meaning to be patronizing.....so let me get this right...according to you Bamber administers one close contact wound near fatal shot. He sees his sister bleeding profusely. He knows she is bleeding to death. So he would leave wouldn't he.....
Ha Ha the quote of the day, Fuck, Bollocks isn’t getting excited, I suggest the same to you.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Adam on November 17, 2019, 09:22:AM
June and Nevill received shots at close range, which might have been close enough. When the silencer was tested for DNA later, it couldn't be established that Sheila's DNA was in the silencer, but June's DNA was found, and the DNA from a male person. Now this DNA wasn't necessarily from blood, but can you suggest how else June's DNA got in there?

Re blood on the barrel end, the barrel could have slipped before Sheila started bleeding from the bullet wound.

The gun could have slipped? The back splatter would be instant from the shot.

Why did Sheila put the silencer away in a box at the back of the gun cupboard.

And why did Sheila put the silencer on. Bamber said he left the rifle with no silencer?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 17, 2019, 09:25:AM
The use of capitals in that manner is considered to be shouting. It does come across as a bit aggressive. You could use italic or bold instead maybe?


Frankly, I can't see why it comes across as being any more aggressive than if I was standing in front of you speaking the words. You only need to go back and dig out my old posts -if you can be bothered- to see that it's my customary style. I'm fully aware of what I write and I know what is the meaning. I can't be responsible for how others interpret the words......................and I don't know how to do italics or bold!!!
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 17, 2019, 09:27:AM
He knew they accepted it though. When did he blame the police?


When he was standing outside the farmhouse.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 17, 2019, 09:30:AM
The gun could have slipped? The back splatter would be instant from the shot.

Why did Sheila put the silencer away in a box at the back of the gun cupboard.

And why did Sheila put the silencer on. Bamber said he left the rifle with no silencer?

Yes, the gun could have slipped to Sheila's left.I do think that happened because of the smear of blood on her neck, regardless of who shot her. Obviously, she was bleeding when that happened, but by then the end of the barrel perhaps wasn't in contact with her skin. Blood was found near the foresight.

Some people on here have said that they don't think the silencer was used at all. I don't think I agree with that though. If Sheila did it, it would depend on her frame of mind. We've been told that she went "berserk", which would suggest that she wouldn't bother to go and put the silencer on. However, she might have been quite calm beforehand and decided to shoot them all without waking the others, so she would find the silencer. If she tried to shoot herself downstairs and found that the silencer was in the way, she could have put it away neatly in the cupboard.

Please note that I'm not saying that happened, it's merely a possibility. There are many issues re the crime scene which suggest Jeremy did it.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 17, 2019, 09:31:AM

When he was standing outside the farmhouse.

Really? Do you have anything to confirm that?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 17, 2019, 09:34:AM

Frankly, I can't see why it comes across as being any more aggressive than if I was standing in front of you speaking the words. You only need to go back and dig out my old posts -if you can be bothered- to see that it's my customary style. I'm fully aware of what I write and I know what is the meaning. I can't be responsible for how others interpret the words......................and I don't know how to do italics or bold!!!

It's forum etiquette - caps are considered to be shouting. We can't see you or hear you, so you have to be aware of how you come across when you use caps. If you don't care, be prepared to be accused of being aggressive.

When you post, you can highlight a word with your cursor and then click on the bold or italic icon.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 17, 2019, 09:35:AM

Oh c'mon Lookout, get real! You endow JB with every super power known to man -AND more. He's NOT a God. He's subject to the same problems we all have with things beyond our control. Of COURSE he wouldn't "have fired two shots where one would have sufficed"!! He was greedy, not stupid. WHAT a clever rouse it was to blame police for her death. He'd have been fully aware that it hadn't been a text book kill. The two shots actually made it possible for him to shift the blame for it onto police.





Jane this was a gun not a water pistol and one mistake made would be one too many and couldn't be taken back. It's not a mistake that he'd have made but at the same time it had puzzled him that two shots were made.

Do we know if a gun expert ever explained how an unintentional discharge could happen ? User incompatibility springs to mind along with the design of that particular firearm. In other words, Sheila hadn't been accustomed to its usage and because it did what a gun does when you pull the trigger, it was just used in that way----to kill, without knowing that the trigger mechanism's activation can also result in an unplanned discharge beyond the firearm's use, because of it having been a semi-automatic which the user wouldn't have been aware of. 
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Adam on November 17, 2019, 09:38:AM
Yes, the gun could have slipped to Sheila's left.I do think that happened because of the smear of blood on her neck, regardless of who shot her. Obviously, she was bleeding when that happened, but by then the end of the barrel perhaps wasn't in contact with her skin. Blood was found near the foresight.

Some people on here have said that they don't think the silencer was used at all. I don't think I agree with that though. If Sheila did it, it would depend on her frame of mind. We've been told that she went "berserk", which would suggest that she wouldn't bother to go and put the silencer on. However, she might have been quite calm beforehand and decided to shoot them all without waking the others, so she would find the silencer. If she tried to shoot herself downstairs and found that the silencer was in the way, she could have put it away neatly in the cupboard.

Please note that I'm not saying that happened, it's merely a possibility. There are many issues re the crime scene which suggest Jeremy did it.

Ok. Sheila put the silencer on.

Shot everyone. Nevill & June's blood going into the silencer.

She took the silencer off & put it in a box at the back of the gun cupboard.

She gave herself a contact & close range shot in a location with high blood flow. But the gun slipped & all back splatter missed the barrell end.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 17, 2019, 09:43:AM
Ok. Sheila put the silencer on.

Shot everyone. Nevill & June's blood going into the silencer.

She took the silencer off & put it in a box at the back of the gun cupboard.

She gave herself a contact & close range shot in a location with high blood flow. But the gun slipped & all back splatter missed the barrell end.

I don't know enough about back spatter to say if the barrel end would definitely have blood on it or in it. I don't think it was a major issue at the trial was it?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 17, 2019, 09:46:AM
Any shells which were found in the " wrong place " would have been the result of misuse of the rifle and its mechanism hence why Sheila was the last person to have handled the rifle and why she'd appeared skew-whiff on the floor. If her finger had remained on the trigger after the first shot-----which isn't impossible, and sudden movement while still holding the rifle will accidentally/ unintentionally cause the trigger finger to compress the trigger.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 17, 2019, 09:50:AM




Jane this was a gun not a water pistol and one mistake made would be one too many and couldn't be taken back. It's not a mistake that he'd have made but at the same time it had puzzled him that two shots were made.

Do we know if a gun expert ever explained how an unintentional discharge could happen ? User incompatibility springs to mind along with the design of that particular firearm. In other words, Sheila hadn't been accustomed to its usage and because it did what a gun does when you pull the trigger, it was just used in that way----to kill, without knowing that the trigger mechanism's activation can also result in an unplanned discharge beyond the firearm's use, because of it having been a semi-automatic which the user wouldn't have been aware of.


Lookout, EVERYONE makes mistakes. Be it a recipe failure of a dish we've mad 100 times of a surgeon cutting something he shouldn't during an operation he could do with his eyes closed. Neither are mistakes which SHOULD have been made, nonetheless, there WERE made. Things go wrong.

 You insist that Sheila was gun competent, but even IF that -new- gun had been in her hands, when do you believe to have been the last previous occasion that she fired one? Let's be perfectly honest, Sheila, unless she was taking regular shooting lessons or was a member of a gun club, wasn't accustomed to using any gun so which ever one happened to have been placed in her hands would have been irrelevant.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Adam on November 17, 2019, 09:55:AM
I don't know enough about back spatter to say if the barrel end would definitely have blood on it or in it. I don't think it was a major issue at the trial was it?

I gave you the COA quote in reply 157.

Back splatter was & is a big issue.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 17, 2019, 09:56:AM
Sheila's lack of experience with guns is certainly a concern. Of course once the bullets were loaded into the magazine, and the magazine put in place, it wouldn't be difficult - you just point and fire. Would she know how to load the magazine? I think there was something in Robert Boutflour's statements where he said that Jeremy attempted to show her how to do it, but she didn't want to do it.

Edit:

Here is the statement:

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,508.msg8673.html#msg8673
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 17, 2019, 10:00:AM
It's forum etiquette - caps are considered to be shouting. We can't see you or hear you, so you have to be aware of how you come across when you use caps. If you don't care, be prepared to be accused of being aggressive.

When you post, you can highlight a word with your cursor and then click on the bold or italic icon.



Kaldin, respectfully. If you have nothing better to do than pick holes in my writing style, may I suggest you put me on ignore. I wonder why you find it necessary to point out what you believe to be MY failings when there are posts SO much more worthy of comment, ie appalling language -how come you fail to see those as being aggressive?- poor grammar, bad spelling.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 17, 2019, 10:01:AM
I gave you the COA quote in reply 157.

Back splatter was & is a big issue.

You posted this:

Quote
Mr Hayward added in evidence that he would be very surprised to find blood from a person, who had not been shot with a contact or very close contact shot, inside the muzzle of the moderator.

That doesn't address the issue of whether or not there would be blood on or inside the muzzle of the barrel.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Adam on November 17, 2019, 10:19:AM
You posted this:

That doesn't address the issue of whether or not there would be blood on or inside the muzzle of the barrel.

And this -

'He concluded that since (a) the blood inside the moderator belonged to the same group as Sheila Caffell and (b) there was no blood within the barrel of the rifle of the gun, that she had been shot whilst the moderator was fitted to the rifle' 

--------

Do you not find it more likely that Bamber shot everyone with silencer attached. Then put the silencer away in a box at the back of the gun cupboard.

All very straight forward.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 17, 2019, 10:21:AM

Certainly. IF he'd have been 100% certain that it had been enough, otherwise..........................? When it comes to being excited, you certainly seem to be rather agitated regarding the two shots. It happened. Move on.
it certainly did. Have I ever disputed that there wasn't two shots? Doesn't prove it was Jeremy Bamber though does it....
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 17, 2019, 10:25:AM
And this -

'He concluded that since (a) the blood inside the moderator belonged to the same group as Sheila Caffell and (b) there was no blood within the barrel of the rifle of the gun, that she had been shot whilst the moderator was fitted to the rifle' 

--------

Do you not find it more likely that Bamber shot everyone with silencer attached. Then put the silencer away in a box at the back of the gun cupboard.

All very straight forward.

Yes I do, but it bothers me that he would put the silencer away with blood on it rather than take it with him.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 17, 2019, 10:28:AM
it certainly did. Have I ever disputed that there wasn't two shots? Doesn't prove it was Jeremy Bamber though does it....



Given that there were two very obvious bullet holes, I'm not sure how two shots could be disputed. Do you believe it proves it was Sheila?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 17, 2019, 10:29:AM
Yes I do, but it bothers me that he would put the silencer away with blood on it rather than take it with him.
precisely, what Moron would shoot his family and place an incriminating aspect in a cupboard, knowing that after his false pretence phonecall, the coppers were likely to be tearing the place apart. Bamber does not even have to possess vast intelligence to know that he needs to get rid of it. In my opinion if he were gulity that silencer would have never resurfaced
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Adam on November 17, 2019, 10:29:AM
Yes I do, but it bothers me that he would put the silencer away with blood on it rather than take it with him.

He would not expect the police to open boxes at the back of gun cupboards. They didn't.

He may not have noticed the blood anyway.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 17, 2019, 10:33:AM


Given that there were two very obvious bullet holes, I'm not sure how two shots could be disputed. Do you believe it proves it was Sheila?
I believe as I have always stated that if it was Jeremy Bamber he would have shot her once ( close contact wound) and knowing she was going to ulitmately die from it. He would have pissed off back to goldhanger. I have never disputed the authenticity of there being two shots when it's obvious there was. So I don't get where your coming from by your own words " there were two shots, move on???
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 17, 2019, 10:35:AM
precisely, what Moron would shoot his family and place an incriminating aspect in a cupboard, knowing that after his false pretence phonecall, the coppers were likely to be tearing the place apart. Bamber does not even have to possess vast intelligence to know that he needs to get rid of it. In my opinion if he were gulity that silencer would have never resurfaced


Why do you think Sheila, who'd dispatched the entire family and had every intention of following suit, would have taken the trouble to get on her knees to place a silencer, in a box, in the deepest recess of an understair wedge, OR, if you believe her blood to have been on it, do it after the first shot had incapacitated her?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 17, 2019, 10:41:AM

Why do you think Sheila, who'd dispatched the entire family and had every intention of following suit, would have taken the trouble to get on her knees to place a silencer, in a box, in the deepest recess of an understair wedge, OR, if you believe her blood to have been on it, do it after the first shot had incapacitated her?
I don't believe her blood was on it. I find it very disturbing that two other silencers were discovered by the police in that cupboard. I also furthermore dismiss you " wedged deep inside and concealed" when according to boutflour he was easily able to locate it in a cardboard box
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Adam on November 17, 2019, 10:42:AM
The back splatter was several baffles inside the silencer. Bamber would not have noticed it.

Besides which he put it inside a box at the back of the gun cupboard. Then told the police he left the rifle without the silencer.

It was not part of the crime scene to the police.

Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 17, 2019, 10:50:AM

Lookout, EVERYONE makes mistakes. Be it a recipe failure of a dish we've mad 100 times of a surgeon cutting something he shouldn't during an operation he could do with his eyes closed. Neither are mistakes which SHOULD have been made, nonetheless, there WERE made. Things go wrong.

 You insist that Sheila was gun competent, but even IF that -new- gun had been in her hands, when do you believe to have been the last previous occasion that she fired one? Let's be perfectly honest, Sheila, unless she was taking regular shooting lessons or was a member of a gun club, wasn't accustomed to using any gun so which ever one happened to have been placed in her hands would have been irrelevant.





Sheila was gun incompetent but a competent shooter as most would be if all they had to do was pull the trigger. How a gun works, and a comparatively new one is a different chapter.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 17, 2019, 10:51:AM
I believe as I have always stated that if it was Jeremy Bamber he would have shot her once ( close contact wound) and knowing she was going to ulitmately die from it. He would have pissed off back to goldhanger. I have never disputed the authenticity of there being two shots when it's obvious there was. So I don't get where your coming from by your own words " there were two shots, move on???


I can almost here you stamping your feet! "He WOULD have........."!!! He did try, damn it, didn't he? I'll ask again, how do you think he categorically KNEW she would die in a time convenient for his plan, or even die at all? Let's, for argument's sake, go with what you're suggesting. He shoots once and leaves. At whatever time he sees as being appropriate, he contacts police -whilst I HATE to bring me into this scenario, I couldn't have done it without the certain knowledge that she was long dead. However, this is about Jeremy- who duly arrive at WHF. Supposing she doesn't draw her last breath until they break in?  Supposing she's not dead? Supposing she's moved from where he left her? Unless he was 100% certain that scene he'd set would be the one the police would see, he probably wouldn't have been prepared to take a chance.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 17, 2019, 10:55:AM

I can almost here you stamping your feet! "He WOULD have........."!!! He did try, damn it, didn't he? I'll ask again, how do you think he categorically KNEW she would die in a time convenient for his plan, or even die at all? Let's, for argument's sake, go with what you're suggesting. He shoots once and leaves. At whatever time he sees as being appropriate, he contacts police -whilst I HATE to bring me into this scenario, I couldn't have done it without the certain knowledge that she was long dead. However, this is about Jeremy- who duly arrive at WHF. Supposing she doesn't draw her last breath until they break in?  Supposing she's not dead? Supposing she's moved from where he left her? Unless he was 100% certain that scene he'd set would be the one the police would see, he probably wouldn't have been prepared to take a chance.
your clutching at straws Jane, a close near fatal shot to the neck. She would bleed to death. Bamber knew nobody would come to her aid. And let's say he committed the crimes at 2am, he had all the time in the world didn't he? Nobody was going to come and get Shelia. She was done for. Nobody except Bamber knew she was dying.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 17, 2019, 10:56:AM

I can almost here you stamping your feet!
chilled as xxxx to be honest..
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 17, 2019, 10:57:AM




Sheila was gun incompetent but a competent shooter as most would be if all they had to do was pull the trigger. How a gun works, and a comparatively new one is a different chapter.


Hitting ANY target -and all the shots found a relevant home- let alone hitting herself, for someone with her coordination would be a very much hit and miss affair. If Jeremy, with his shooting skill, couldn't get it right first time, I'm more than certain Sheila couldn't have.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 17, 2019, 10:58:AM
Because it was Sheila who'd shot herself, JB wouldn't have been having the worry of whether or not she was dead. That rifle had inadvertently gone off a second time as her hand was already in place after the first shot.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 17, 2019, 11:02:AM
He would not expect the police to open boxes at the back of gun cupboards. They didn't.

He may not have noticed the blood anyway.

Not noticed it? Of course he would have noticed it - he would clean it off!
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 17, 2019, 11:03:AM
Wherever Sheila had been after the first shot or whatever position she'd been in either on the bed or already on the floor if she'd still been gripping that rifle it would have fired off again and being that it would have been resting on her body still pointing upwards it wouldn't have been impossible.
That second shot was unexpected !   
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 17, 2019, 11:04:AM
The back splatter was several baffles inside the silencer. Bamber would not have noticed it.

Besides which he put it inside a box at the back of the gun cupboard. Then told the police he left the rifle without the silencer.

It was not part of the crime scene to the police.

There was blood on the outside of the silencer - according to the relatives. Of course he would have seen it.

Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: guest7363 on November 17, 2019, 11:07:AM
chilled as fuck to be honest..
I don’t hide behind anyone, I find your language uncalled for and consistent, I have reported it to moderators and if it continues I will no longer take part in debate.  I’m surprised some members are quick to pull up Jane for using capital letters yet choose to ignore your vile language.  I will not bother to take part again until this has been addressed.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 17, 2019, 11:07:AM
your clutching at straws Jane, a close near fatal shot to the neck. She would bleed to death. Bamber knew nobody would come to her aid. And let's say he committed the crimes at 2am, he had all the time in the world didn't he? Nobody was going to come and get Shelia. She was done for. Nobody except Bamber knew she was dying.



I note how frequent is you use of that phrase when posters don't concur with you. Yes, she would -eventually- bleed to death. How long is a piece of string? How could Jeremy control the timing of it, OTHER than by preventing it with a second shot? You're suggesting a TOD to fit with what you see as having occurred, but we don't have any clarification of when it was. His freedom -his whole new life- depended on him getting this right. There was no wriggle room.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 17, 2019, 11:08:AM
chilled as fuck to be honest..




Is there any need for that ??
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 17, 2019, 11:11:AM
I don’t hide behind anyone, I find your language uncalled for and consistent, I have reported it to moderators and if it continues I will no longer take part in debate.  I’m surprised some members are quick to pull up Jane for using capital letters yet choose to ignore your vile language.  I will not bother to take part again until this has been addressed.




RJ I didn't expect anything else when I first saw the ID !
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 17, 2019, 11:11:AM
I don’t hide behind anyone, I find your language uncalled for and consistent, I have reported it to moderators and if it continues I will no longer take part in debate.  I’m surprised some members are quick to pull up Jane for using capital letters yet choose to ignore your vile language.  I will not bother to take part again until this has been addressed.



Thank-you RJ :) I feel perfectly certain that posters would far rather debate with someone fair and even-minded, like you, than be ridiculed by ilb. It IS beginning to feel as if I've become everyone's favourite target for taking out their frustrations on.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 17, 2019, 11:21:AM
It appears i have been reported for using a swear word ( not threatingly aimed at anyone) ( not in any shape or form meaning to cause, alarm, upset or anything. I am a working class man, from Yorkshire and I slip up sometimes. I do apologise.....sincerely. I understand I have been reported to moderators for this discraceful behavior.......... I further apologise for having opinions that differ from other posters. And they have of course got to be right because they registered their account before I did.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 17, 2019, 11:33:AM


His freedom -his whole new life- depended on him getting this right. There was no wriggle room.
exactly, so why would he risk shooting her twice. When we think of suicide by firearm what's the most logic scenario we think of?? It is one shot isn't it. Bamber would know by shooting her twice it would look suspicious. As in so far making police believe there was a third party involved.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 17, 2019, 11:55:AM
exactly, so why would he risk shooting her twice. When we think of suicide by firearm what's the most logic scenario we think of?? It is one shot isn't it. Bamber would know by shooting her twice it would look suspicious. As in so far making police believe there was a third party involved.


Perhaps, for no greater reason than it being a split second decision that he justified later. He'd have been aware that the classic suicide by gun is one shot.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 17, 2019, 12:05:PM

Perhaps, for no greater reason than it being a split second decision that he justified later. He'd have been aware that the classic suicide by gun is one shot.
Answer me this, what time do you personally think Jeremy shot Shelia that night. Don't backtrack, give an opinion. As we know he telephoned west somewhere between 3.26 to 3.36 am....
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 17, 2019, 12:08:PM
exactly, so why would he risk shooting her twice. When we think of suicide by firearm what's the most logic scenario we think of?? It is one shot isn't it. Bamber would know by shooting her twice it would look suspicious. As in so far making police believe there was a third party involved.

He would have to do something. He could sit there and wait to see if she died of course, but he couldn't stay all night because he had to receive the "phone call" from Nevill.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 17, 2019, 12:08:PM
Let's also bare in mind by his own admission he left whf for goldhanger in the region of 10 pm (ish) on 6/8/85....some five five and half hours before connecting to west.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 17, 2019, 12:12:PM
He would have to do something. He could sit there and wait to see if she died of course, but he couldn't stay all night because he had to receive the "phone call" from Nevill.
but how do we know what time he killed her? If he is gulity for example, he could have left whf at 10pm and gone back there at 1 in the morning ( even earlier) say he had shot Shelia by half 1, that gives him ample time before he calls west. It doesn't take someone two hours to bleed to death? He knows this
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 17, 2019, 12:19:PM
but how do we know what time he killed her? If he is gulity for example, he could have left whf at 10pm and gone back there at 1 in the morning ( even earlier) say he had shot Shelia by half 1, that gives him ample time before he calls west. It doesn't take someone two hours to bleed to death? He knows this

Let's say he killed them at 1am, except Sheila, who he wounded. He could have waited hours for her to die, or she might not have died at all. At some point he had to call the police and say that Nevill just called him, and he couldn't wait too long because Nevill died at 1am. If Jeremy had to hang around waiting for Sheila to die until 5am, for example, Jeremy couldn't make that call until about 5.30am. The police might have got into the house and realised that Nevill had been dead for hours, and he couldn't have called Jeremy at 5.30.

Jeremy couldn't just leave Sheila alive and go home. What if she didn't die? She might tell the police that Jeremy did it.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 17, 2019, 12:27:PM
Answer me this, what time do you personally think Jeremy shot Shelia that night. Don't backtrack, give an opinion. As we know he telephoned west somewhere between 3.26 to 3.36 am....


This could end up being a game I'll wish I'd never agreed to join in with! I imagine that whatever I say will be met with something like "Ah but...............". Because I'm "numerically challenged" I've only ever thought of timings in terms of earlier rather than later, OR vice verse.

If I'm going to play, I have to work backwards from the first call he made, before which, he'd have come home, stripped, checked for any possible marks, put all the clothes he'd worn into the washing machine, and showered. I suppose he'd have got home around 2.00-2.30am. He COULD have shot the last person -and I'm guessing that to have been Sheila. Another reason for things going awry, perhaps- around 1am.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 17, 2019, 12:29:PM

Hitting ANY target -and all the shots found a relevant home- let alone hitting herself, for someone with her coordination would be a very much hit and miss affair. If Jeremy, with his shooting skill, couldn't get it right first time, I'm more than certain Sheila couldn't have.

A lot of the shots were pretty close up, so how could she miss?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 17, 2019, 12:30:PM
EP could have judged for themselves who was alive when lights were being switched on/off inside the farmhouse in the early hours and they were outside watching, with JB in tow.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ngb1066 on November 17, 2019, 12:34:PM
chilled as xxxx to be honest..

Please avoid using bad language. 

Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 17, 2019, 12:37:PM
A lot of the shots were pretty close up, so how could she miss?


From what had been said of her appearance earlier, she couldn't even put her lipstick on straight.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 17, 2019, 12:38:PM

From what had been said of her appearance earlier, she couldn't even put her lipstick on straight.

Who actually said that? She wore nail varnish. Unless someone else did that for her, she would need a steady hand for that. She was wearing earrings - they can be quite fiddly to put in.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 17, 2019, 12:48:PM
Who actually said that? She wore nail varnish. Unless someone else did that for her, she would need a steady hand for that. She was wearing earrings - they can be quite fiddly to put in.


The owner of the Tiptree shop where she went with her mother to buy clothes for the boys. He also mentioned her lack of interest. She'd been to a party, recently. A friend could have done her nails for her? I believe I've read -CAL?- that someone helped her with her make-up. I never take my earrings out.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Adam on November 17, 2019, 12:50:PM
There was blood on the outside of the silencer - according to the relatives. Of course he would have seen it.

Obviously he missed the blood inside the silencer. He probably took it off & put it away without checking. He was in a hurry had other things on his mind & it may have been dark.

Can you show me a source that shows back splatter may not occur due to a rifle slipping.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Adam on November 17, 2019, 12:51:PM
Bamber made a lot of mistakes. He was not very smart. Which is why he was a farm labourer.

He was an inheritance killer who got caught.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 17, 2019, 12:56:PM

The owner of the Tiptree shop where she went with her mother to buy clothes for the boys. He also mentioned her lack of interest. She'd been to a party, recently. A friend could have done her nails for her? I believe I've read -CAL?- that someone helped her with her make-up. I never take my earrings out.

Is there a statement from that shop owner?

It looks to me like she's wearing eye makeup, but I can't be sure.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 17, 2019, 12:58:PM
Obviously he missed the blood inside the silencer. He probably took it off & put it away without checking. He was in a hurry had other things on his mind & it may have been dark.

Can you show me a source that shows back splatter may not occur due to a rifle slipping.

I'm not talking about the blood inside the silencer, I'm talking about the blood on the outside of the silencer. It was perfectly visible, according to some of the relatives.

Can you show me a source where it says that there must be back spatter if someone shoots themselves or is shot at very close range?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 17, 2019, 12:59:PM
Please avoid using bad language.
apologies
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Adam on November 17, 2019, 01:07:PM
I'm not talking about the blood inside the silencer, I'm talking about the blood on the outside of the silencer. It was perfectly visible, according to some of the relatives.

Can you show me a source where it says that there must be back spatter if someone shoots themselves or is shot at very close range?

I gave you the COA source.

You said the blood inside the silencer is Nevill's & June's. And there is no blood inside the rifle barrel because the rifle slipped. I have never heard that suggestion before & do not believe it is possible.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 17, 2019, 01:08:PM
Is there a statement from that shop owner?

It looks to me like she's wearing eye makeup, but I can't be sure.


I believe there is. I'm really not certain, from those pictures, how it can be seen what makeup she may have had on.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 17, 2019, 01:10:PM
I gave you the COA source.

You said the blood inside the silencer is Nevill's & June's. And there is no blood inside the rifle barrel because the rifle slipped. I have never heard that suggestion before & do not believe it is possible.

I said that June's DNA was found in the silencer years later. Can you explain that?

I didn't say there was no blood inside the rifle barrel because the rifle slipped.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 17, 2019, 01:16:PM

I believe there is. I'm really not certain, from those pictures, how it can be seen what makeup she may have had on.

Without that statement, I can only assume it's hearsay.

You can see a close up of Sheila's face, and it looks like she's wearing eye make up to me.

She was co-ordinated enough to be able to use a tampon. I don't believe this stuff about her having no co-ordination. None of the main players have said that have they?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Adam on November 17, 2019, 01:16:PM
June and Nevill received shots at close range, which might have been close enough. When the silencer was tested for DNA later, it couldn't be established that Sheila's DNA was in the silencer, but June's DNA was found, and the DNA from a male person. Now this DNA wasn't necessarily from blood, but can you suggest how else June's DNA got in there?

Re blood on the barrel end, the barrel could have slipped before Sheila started bleeding from the bullet wound.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 17, 2019, 01:18:PM
I mentioned blood on the end of the barrel, not inside it. Please stop attributing things to me which I didn't say.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Adam on November 17, 2019, 01:21:PM
I mentioned blood on the end of the barrel, not inside it. Please stop attributing things to me which I didn't say.

Back splatter will occur inside the rifle barrel. At the time the shot was fired.

Why was there no blood inside if Sheila gave herself a neck contact & close range shot?

The COA said there would be.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 17, 2019, 01:27:PM
Back splatter will occur inside the rifle barrel. At the time the shot was fired.

Why was there no blood inside if Sheila gave herself a neck contact & close range shot?

The COA said there would be.

It's back spatter, not splatter.

It might not occur - it doesn't always happen.

How did June's DNA get into the silencer?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 17, 2019, 01:30:PM
Without that statement, I can only assume it's hearsay.

You can see a close up of Sheila's face, and it looks like she's wearing eye make up to me.

She was co-ordinated enough to be able to use a tampon. I don't believe this stuff about her having no co-ordination. None of the main players have said that have they?


You can always check in archives.

In one picture of her, when very much alive, her eye make up is fabulous. I feel certain had that come anywhere close to being replicated I'd have noticed it. Perhaps it was the blood which made me squeamish. Ann has mentioned her lack of coordination. A tampon, because it's done at -shall we say?- close quarters, is a question of if at first. I feel sure that some of the well coordinated amongst us have, on occasion, managed to insert one sideways?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 17, 2019, 01:34:PM

You can always check in archives.

In one picture of her, when very much alive, her eye make up is fabulous. I feel certain had that come anywhere close to being replicated I'd have noticed it. Perhaps it was the blood which made me squeamish. Ann has mentioned her lack of coordination. A tampon, because it's done at -shall we say?- close quarters, is a question of if at first. I feel sure that some of the well coordinated amongst us have, on occasion, managed to insert one sideways?

I have checked but I can't find a statement from a shop owner.

Ann Eaton wouldn't know anything about Sheila's co-ordination. She hadn't seen Sheila for a month before the murders.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 17, 2019, 01:45:PM




Sheila was gun incompetent but a competent shooter as most would be if all they had to do was pull the trigger. How a gun works, and a comparatively new one is a different chapter.

No she wasn't Lookout.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 17, 2019, 01:46:PM
I have checked but I can't find a statement from a shop owner.

Ann Eaton wouldn't know anything about Sheila's co-ordination. She hadn't seen Sheila for a month before the murders.




I feel certain it will be there, but I have no idea what is the man's name. However, I recall there was something about a visit to a friend of June's afterwards which would have had nothing to do with the shop keeper. That it can only be regarded as hearsay doesn't make it untrue. As for Ann's observations of Sheila, she could only talk about what she'd already seen, which is, incidentally, corroborated by others, including her doctor.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Adam on November 17, 2019, 01:49:PM
It's back spatter, not splatter.

It might not occur - it doesn't always happen.

How did June's DNA get into the silencer?

Can you not correct spelling. Unless you are going to do it to everyone.

Perhaps because June lived there.

Anyway, at least you have dismissed the crazy police & relative theories. But accepting the straight forward Bamber scenario is too much.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 17, 2019, 01:49:PM
I have checked but I can't find a statement from a shop owner.

Ann Eaton wouldn't know anything about Sheila's co-ordination. She hadn't seen Sheila for a month before the murders.

So she would know then. Sheila had been on Haloperidol for months.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 17, 2019, 01:50:PM



I feel certain it will be there, but I have no idea what is the man's name. However, I recall there was something about a visit to a friend of June's afterwards which would have had nothing to do with the shop keeper. That it can only be regarded as hearsay doesn't make it untrue. As for Ann's observations of Sheila, she could only talk about what she'd already seen, which is, incidentally, corroborated by others, including her doctor.

If it's hearsay, it doesn't make it true either - it makes it irrelevant and untrustworthy.

Ann hadn't seen Sheila for a month - as I already said. Ann Eaton said a lot of things ...
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 17, 2019, 01:54:PM
If it's hearsay, it doesn't make it true either - it makes it irrelevant and untrustworthy.

Ann hadn't seen Sheila for a month - as I already said. Ann Eaton said a lot of things ...



So her doctor and others are all liars? Legally, PERHAPS, hearsay may be said to be "irrelevant and untrustworthy" but implying such make liars of all those who may have been willing to make statements had they been approached.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 17, 2019, 01:56:PM
If it's hearsay, it doesn't make it true either - it makes it irrelevant and untrustworthy.

Ann hadn't seen Sheila for a month - as I already said. Ann Eaton said a lot of things ...

So her observations were a from when she last saw her - around 4 weeks previous! The shop keeper made a statement, we don't have it hear but it's not hearsay.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 17, 2019, 01:57:PM


So her doctor and others are all liars? Legally, PERHAPS, hearsay may be said to be "irrelevant and untrustworthy" but implying such make liars of all those who may have been willing to make statements had they been approached.

You're the one who made the claim about the shop owner, but there's no evidence.

Where did the doctors say she had bad co-ordination, and when did they last see her?

Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 17, 2019, 01:58:PM
So her observations were a from when she last saw her - around 4 weeks previous! The shop keeper made a statement, we don't have it hear but it's not hearsay.

Ann Eaton didn't mention Sheila's co-ordination or lack of it in her statement where she said she saw Sheila four weeks before the murders.

It's hearsay until you can come up with it.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 17, 2019, 02:00:PM
Ann Eaton didn't mention Sheila's co-ordination or lack of it in her statement where she said she saw Sheila four weeks before the murders.

It's hearsay until you can come up with it.



How very openminded! Until it's a statement available here, it's hearsay.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 17, 2019, 02:04:PM


How very openminded! Until it's a statement available here, it's hearsay.

That's right - it's just a claim from you.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 17, 2019, 02:05:PM
Ann Eaton didn't mention Sheila's co-ordination or lack of it in her statement where she said she saw Sheila four weeks before the murders.

It's hearsay until you can come up with it.

Well, it isn't Kaldin, it's just you not believing it but that's up to you.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 17, 2019, 02:14:PM
That's right - it's just a claim from you.



Yes, I get it, Kaldin. A claim from anyone OTHER than I would be acceptable.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 17, 2019, 02:16:PM
Well, it isn't Kaldin, it's just you not believing it but that's up to you.

Of course it's hearsay - until there's evidence. Why should I believe it?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 17, 2019, 02:17:PM


Yes, I get it, Kaldin. A claim from anyone OTHER than I would be acceptable.

No - I generally ask for evidence if someone makes an unsubstantiated claim.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 17, 2019, 02:18:PM
Of course it's hearsay - until there's evidence. Why should I believe it?

The shop Keep was/is called Barry Parker and he is referenced in both Roger Wilkes and Carol Ann Lee's book.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 17, 2019, 02:23:PM
The shop Keep was/is called Barry Parker and he is referenced in both Roger Wilkes and Carol Ann Lee's book.

I don't have those books. However, I have found a reference to Barry Parker in Carol Ann Lee's book. That is not a witness statement, and there's clearly some artistic licence there. Barry Parker allegedly said that Sheila had lipstick on her teeth. That is not the same thing as someone not being able to put lipstick on, or being unco-ordinated.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: guest7363 on November 17, 2019, 02:25:PM
Since the gun in my pictures is positioned upside-down the ejection port on the right is now facing left.

This gun is has a deflector plate on the ejection port. This makes the cases bounce forward at an angle. Its designed that way.
Fletcher confirms the ejector port is on the right, so what your saying, when anyone fires this type of rifle, the case could go anywhere, even across the sight of the firer, he could fire eject and just as he’s going to fire a case could flirt across his view or in front of his view from right to left or straight up?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 17, 2019, 02:29:PM
When a cartridge is ejected it must go forward to an extent. The position of the cartridges in the twins' bedroom shows that - assuming the diagram is accurate.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: guest7363 on November 17, 2019, 02:42:PM
When a cartridge is ejected it must go forward to an extent. The position of the cartridges in the twins' bedroom shows that - assuming the diagram is accurate.
I don’t know Kaldin, I’m not a gun expert, I’m trying to get my head around the case ejection, I just find it strange they would design a gun that ejected cases that might impede sight or take ones eye of the target?  The bloke across the road has won trophies for shooting, I might ask him when it stops raining lol.


Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 17, 2019, 02:44:PM

The owner of the Tiptree shop where she went with her mother to buy clothes for the boys. He also mentioned her lack of interest. She'd been to a party, recently. A friend could have done her nails for her? I believe I've read -CAL?- that someone helped her with her make-up. I never take my earrings out.



Where did I say the owner of the shop said she was uncoordinated?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 17, 2019, 02:53:PM
Let's say he killed them at 1am, except Sheila, who he wounded. He could have waited hours for her to die, or she might not have died at all. At some point he had to call the police and say that Nevill just called him, and he couldn't wait too long because Nevill died at 1am. If Jeremy had to hang around waiting for Sheila to die until 5am, for example, Jeremy couldn't make that call until about 5.30am. The police might have got into the house and realised that Nevill had been dead for hours, and he couldn't have called Jeremy at 5.30.

Jeremy couldn't just leave Sheila alive and go home. What if she didn't die? She might tell the police that Jeremy did it.
  the point I'm making kaldin is that Bamber would have aimed the gun with one shot to administer a fatal wound. I.e close up. He couldn't risk firing two shots
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: guest7363 on November 17, 2019, 02:54:PM
Makes you wonder where the shooter was stood when firing at Neville, two casings rest on the kitchen table.

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4071

Was it coincidence or luck for Sheila? Fletcher had problems with the rifle jamming occasionally, did Sheila have this problem and would she be able to overcome it?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 17, 2019, 02:58:PM
This is where the second bullet was expelled RJ, most probably. Sheila wasn't accustomed to the workings of a firearm, only the shooting process.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: guest7363 on November 17, 2019, 03:23:PM
This is where the second bullet was expelled RJ, most probably. Sheila wasn't accustomed to the workings of a firearm, only the shooting process.
Your right Lookout there was a problem, , I’m trying to get my head around one case to left and one to the right of Sheila, when the ejection port on the rifle is on the right side, I don’t think the bullet case got trod on and moved there, because Delgado and Collins both seen it on approach to the bedroom.  It could have bounced of the cabinet, I’m not convinced they eject with force though, considering bullet casings are resting  on the table downstairs, the only explanation would be, the shooter be it Jeremy or Sheila turned the rifle upside down?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: guest7363 on November 17, 2019, 03:40:PM
Makes you wonder where the shooter was stood when firing at Neville, two casings rest on the kitchen table.

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4071

Was it coincidence or luck for Sheila? Fletcher had problems with the rifle jamming occasionally, did Sheila have this problem and would she be able to overcome it?
Because Neville was hit with the rifle butt and some stock broke off, I wonder if this was the cause of the rifle jamming?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 17, 2019, 03:41:PM
Your right Lookout there was a problem, , I’m trying to get my head around one case to left and one to the right of Sheila, when the ejection port on the rifle is on the right side, I don’t think the bullet case got trod on and moved there, because Delgado and Collins both seen it on approach to the bedroom.  It could have bounced of the cabinet, I’m not convinced they eject with force though, considering bullet casings are resting  on the table downstairs, the only explanation would be, the shooter be it Jeremy or Sheila turned the rifle upside down?




I think things went awry with that second bullet. Sheila moving awkwardly after the first ( which anyone would ) closely followed by the second if she'd been left clutching the rifle in the same way and her hand and trigger finger cemented in the same position.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: guest7363 on November 17, 2019, 03:44:PM



I think things went awry with that second bullet. Sheila moving awkwardly after the first ( which anyone would ) closely followed by the second if she'd been left clutching the rifle in the same way and her hand and trigger finger cemented in the same position.
Could be Lookout, I do know me and Patti has had this discussion and it left us puzzled.  It could be a simple explanation, the police didn’t think much of it.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 17, 2019, 03:45:PM



I think things went awry with that second bullet. Sheila moving awkwardly after the first ( which anyone would ) closely followed by the second if she'd been left clutching the rifle in the same way and her hand and trigger finger cemented in the same position.





If you've gripped something for long enough your hand becomes " sealed " in that position until you slowly leave go.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: guest7363 on November 17, 2019, 03:46:PM
Because Neville was hit with the rifle butt and some stock broke off, I wonder if this was the cause of the rifle jamming?
Found it Lookout, Fletcher says it could be dirt or due to prior mishandling.

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=734.0;attach=3215
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 17, 2019, 03:48:PM
Because Neville was hit with the rifle butt and some stock broke off, I wonder if this was the cause of the rifle jamming?




More than likely. It certainly wouldn't operate the same I don't think.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: guest7363 on November 17, 2019, 03:51:PM




If you've gripped something for long enough your hand becomes " sealed " in that position until you slowly leave go.
My wife says that happens with my wallet Lookout when she tries to prise it from me 😂😂😂
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 17, 2019, 03:55:PM
So she would know then. Sheila had been on Haloperidol for months.

No, she wouldn't know. She wouldn't know how Haloperidol affected Sheila.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 17, 2019, 03:56:PM
  the point I'm making kaldin is that Bamber would have aimed the gun with one shot to administer a fatal wound. I.e close up. He couldn't risk firing two shots

Well he would try to do it with one shot, but he didn't manage it. Hence the second shot.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 17, 2019, 04:08:PM
My wife says that happens with my wallet Lookout when she tries to prise it from me 😂😂😂




 :)) :)) :)) :)) :)) :)) :)) oooh you are awful, but I like you.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 17, 2019, 04:12:PM
Found it Lookout, Fletcher says it could be dirt or due to prior mishandling.

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=734.0;attach=3215





A bit of both I'd say.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: guest7363 on November 17, 2019, 04:23:PM
Having said that Lookout, DRH8 seems to have gone the opposite way?  Every case to the right but that one to the left?  Maybe the case ejection doesn’t work how I’m seeing it?  Unless there’s another explanation for DRH8
Obviously the DRH 35 And 9 are bullet fragments.
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4072
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: guest7363 on November 17, 2019, 04:27:PM
Just off topic, I stay as though I’m hidden, so I don’t have to keep signing in each time, I’ve got two devices I catch up on, my iPad and my iPhone.  If I don’t do it this way I’m makes it look like I’m on line all the time?  I can’t think of any other way of doing it.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: guest7363 on November 17, 2019, 04:35:PM
Having said that Lookout, DRH8 seems to have gone the opposite way?  Every case to the right but that one to the left?  Maybe the case ejection doesn’t work how I’m seeing it?  Unless there’s another explanation for DRH8
Obviously the DRH 35 And 9 are bullet fragments.
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4072
So it could be, every time it jammed it threw it the opposite way?  But Fletcher never mentions this though?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 17, 2019, 04:41:PM
Just off topic, I stay as though I’m hidden, so I don’t have to keep signing in each time, I’ve got two devices I catch up on, my iPad and my iPhone.  If I don’t do it this way I’m makes it look like I’m on line all the time?  I can’t think of any other way of doing it.





Oh I don't attempt doing anything. This is my 2nd laptop in 3 years and this one is only 5 months old but there's still time for me to knock it out if I start fiddling with it so I leave well alone.
I can remain hidden and read posts but have to sign in when posting or viewing anything.

Anyway, it doesn't matter if it does show you're here all day. Mine has, but I've cooked and eaten my Sunday dinner in between, fed the cats and let them out. It's when I post I'm physically here in person and not flitting around doing other things.   
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: guest7363 on November 17, 2019, 04:48:PM




Oh I don't attempt doing anything. This is my 2nd laptop in 3 years and this one is only 5 months old but there's still time for me to knock it out if I start fiddling with it so I leave well alone.
I can remain hidden and read posts but have to sign in when posting or viewing anything.

Anyway, it doesn't matter if it does show you're here all day. Mine has, but I've cooked and eaten my Sunday dinner in between, fed the cats and let them out. It's when I post I'm physically here in person and not flitting around doing other things.
Ok Lookout, if you see me online at 3 in the morning you’ll know why 😂😂😂 I just don’t sign out
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 17, 2019, 05:57:PM
Ok Lookout, if you see me online at 3 in the morning you’ll know why 😂😂😂 I just don’t sign out




You'll be lucky to see me at 3 in the morning. Once off to sleep I'm dead to the world until around 6am or thereabouts. A creature of habit.
I even put the laptop in sleep mode rather than off altogether as it seems to forget where I left off if it's shutdown altogether. I can't cope with these new machines, especially the Win 10's which I seem to have trouble with.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 17, 2019, 06:09:PM
Well he would try to do it with one shot, but he didn't manage it. Hence the second shot.
i am speaking from a Bamber is innocent scenario
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 17, 2019, 06:18:PM

This could end up being a game I'll wish I'd never agreed to join in with! I imagine that whatever I say will be met with something like "Ah but...............". Because I'm "numerically challenged" I've only ever thought of timings in terms of earlier rather than later, OR vice verse.

If I'm going to play, I have to work backwards from the first call he made, before which, he'd have come home, stripped, checked for any possible marks, put all the clothes he'd worn into the washing machine, and showered. I suppose he'd have got home around 2.00-2.30am. He COULD have shot the last person -and I'm guessing that to have been Sheila. Another reason for things going awry, perhaps- around 1am.
how hard would it be for Bamber to get Shelia to do as he wanted at gunpoint? My reasoning is that he wouldn't have much difficulty. She would have been petrified. Totally under his submission. And even if she wasn't, he would have been able to overpower her and get the gun where he wanted. If I was intending to believe he was guilty I'd have think he would just literally point the the gun at her Temple and blow her away. I do believe the the two shot theory could and I place empathise on could, be the result of a botched suicide
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 17, 2019, 06:21:PM
I know vanesiz In the report stated the first shot Shelia sustained had not caused much damage. ( She would have been able to stand and walk) but i assume it caused heavy bleeding ( internal and external) the question I want to find out is how long could a human on average sustain after receiving such a shot before subcomin to their death. I think it's an important element to be considered.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 17, 2019, 06:43:PM
Ok Lookout, if you see me online at 3 in the morning you’ll know why 😂😂😂 I just don’t sign out

Neither do I, at least not often.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: guest7363 on November 17, 2019, 06:47:PM
Your right Lookout there was a problem, , I’m trying to get my head around one case to left and one to the right of Sheila, when the ejection port on the rifle is on the right side, I don’t think the bullet case got trod on and moved there, because Delgado and Collins both seen it on approach to the bedroom.  It could have bounced of the cabinet, I’m not convinced they eject with force though, considering bullet casings are resting  on the table downstairs, the only explanation would be, the shooter be it Jeremy or Sheila turned the rifle upside down?
Probably another explanation why the shell casing is to the left,Sheila’s  right, it did get kicked there by the killer?  Maybe it was closer after all? 
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 17, 2019, 06:57:PM
I know vanesiz In the report stated the first shot Shelia sustained had not caused much damage. ( She would have been able to stand and walk) but i assume it caused heavy bleeding ( internal and external) the question I want to find out is how long could a human on average sustain after receiving such a shot before subcomin to their death. I think it's an important element to be considered.

He didn't say it hadn't caused much damage, in fact he said it would every likely have had a 'stunning effect' because of the shock and the pain.
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,7638.msg362766.html#msg362766
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 17, 2019, 07:03:PM
  the point I'm making kaldin is that Bamber would have aimed the gun with one shot to administer a fatal wound. I.e close up. He couldn't risk firing two shots

I am sure that was he intended - didn't work out like that though. Shit happens - as they say.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 17, 2019, 07:18:PM
I am sure that was he intended - didn't work out like that though. Shit happens - as they say.
so how do you think the final fight between Shelia and Jeremy went?? How did Shelia disrupt Jeremy's scenario so much baring mind she was the only one left alive and Bamber was taller, heavier and armed with the rifle??
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 17, 2019, 07:23:PM
If supporters of Jeremy Bambers guilt are to believe that Shelia couldn't overcome nevill because of him being taller and heavier. Then in my mind the same logic has to be proved as to why Jeremy was unable to overcome Shelia to submit one fatal suicide shot. ( Bare in mind in the nevill Shelia scenario Shelia was the one with the rifle...
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 17, 2019, 07:28:PM
Going off topic a moment,I've just been reading Collins second statement. I find this quite absurd. I accept people make mistakes and your eyes from time to time can play tricks on you. But how did he come to the conclusion Ralph Bamber was a female upon on first seeing his body, this was a early summer morning in august????
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 17, 2019, 07:35:PM
Going off topic a moment,I've just been reading Collins second statement. I find this quite absurd. I accept people make mistakes and your eyes from time to time can play tricks on you. But how did he come to the conclusion Ralph Bamber was a female upon on first seeing his body, this was a early summer morning in august????


Like most men of his generation, the front hair was worn long -Nevill's happened to be very curly, too- when he'd toppled forward the long hair would have fallen forward, perhaps, from a distance and through a window, giving the impression of him being a her?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 17, 2019, 07:36:PM
I agree about the hair. I'm not sure about the position of Nevill's body though. How could it be balanced on the chair in that manner?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 17, 2019, 07:37:PM

Like most men of his generation, the front hair was worn long -Nevill's happened to be very curly, too- when he'd toppled forward the long hair would have fallen forward, perhaps, from a distance and through a window, giving the impression of him being a her?
come on Jane, I'm not attempting to even suggest something sinister but even ray Charles would be able to on first glance, state that nevill Bamber was indeed male???
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 17, 2019, 07:39:PM
I agree about the hair. I'm not sure about the position of Nevill's body though. How could it be balanced on the chair in that manner?
this is not a fleeting glance scenario kaldin, someone from a long distance or an individual driving a car at speed. He had in front of him ( whether it be through a window on a clear summer morning), a dead male. Who he identified as female. I'm not saying this is sinister. But it is absurd how he came to this conclusion.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 17, 2019, 07:41:PM
this is not a fleeting glance scenario kaldin, someone from a long distance or an individual driving a car at speed. He had in front of him, a dead male. Who he identified as female. I'm not saying this is sinister. But it is absurd how he came to this conclusion.


I'm not sure how much of the body he could see though. I suspect it was not in that position when they went in.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 17, 2019, 07:42:PM
come on Jane, I'm not attempting to even suggest something sinister but even ray Charles would be able to on first glance, state that nevill Bamber was indeed male???


I wasn't talking about anything other than his hair. I can think of NO other reason for him being mistaken for a woman. You asked for a reason why..................I gave you one.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 17, 2019, 07:44:PM

I wasn't talking about anything other than his hair. I can think of NO other reason for him being mistaken for a woman. You asked for a reason why..................I gave you one.
and I appreciate it. But his hair wasn't like rapunzel was it?? And on through his own eyes he would have seen his body outline wouldn't he?? he would have seen his fully body stature?  Not many women on average in sleepy Essex are built like brickpoo houses and 6 foot 4 are they???
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 17, 2019, 07:45:PM
What is the alternative? That it was Sheila? If it was, then she hadn't shot herself at the time. Was she lying on the floor or something? The police would have said there was a live person in the house.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 17, 2019, 07:47:PM
What is the alternative? That it was Sheila? If it was, then she hadn't shot herself at the time. Was she lying on the floor or something? The police would have said there was a live person in the house.
if you read above kaldin. You would realize I have not suggested it was any other. I do find the identification of a woman to be strange though
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 17, 2019, 08:03:PM
and I appreciate it. But his hair wasn't like rapunzel was it?? And on through his own eyes he would have seen his body outline wouldn't he?? he would have seen his fully body stature?  Not many women on average in sleepy Essex are built like brickpoo houses and 6 foot 4 are they???


I've just measured my head from the front hairline to the nape. It measures about 12 inches. The average is, I believe 13 inches. Nevill's head was longer than mine. I estimate that much of the hair -certainly that around the front hairline, would be around 10-12 inches. Falling forward, it's longer hair than many women have. It was actually longer than June's. She wore her hair in shorter layers.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 17, 2019, 08:07:PM

I've just measured my head from the front hairline to the nape. It measures about 12 inches. The average is, I believe 13 inches. Nevill's head was longer than mine. I estimate that much of the hair -certainly that around the front hairline, would be around 10-12 inches. Falling forward, it's longer hair than many women have. It was actually longer than June's. She wore her hair in shorter layers.
when Collins looked through that window he had a clear view of nevill Bamber did he not??
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 17, 2019, 08:11:PM
I thought the chair was round the corner from where the window was.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 17, 2019, 08:12:PM
Do we actually have a picture of nevill Bamber around the time of the massacre? I have only seen ones of his and June's wedding, him at shelias wedding, the 77 juberliee one, and the one of him in the Whitehouse kitchen cradling one of the children ( also includes Jeremy who appears to be eating cereal) I wouldn't classify his hair on those photos as long
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Steve_uk on November 17, 2019, 08:17:PM
so how do you think the final fight between Shelia and Jeremy went?? How did Shelia disrupt Jeremy's scenario so much baring mind she was the only one left alive and Bamber was taller, heavier and armed with the rifle??
There was no final fight. Sheila was worn out and as June related to her sister on the telephone was about to go to bed. The condition of the nightdress and Sheila's serene face confirm this in my view.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 17, 2019, 08:20:PM
There was no final fight. Sheila was worn out and as June related to her sister on the telephone was about to go to bed. The condition of the nightdress and Sheila's serene face confirm this in my view.
can I ask you a question, you believe the silencer was used in the massacre?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 17, 2019, 08:20:PM
Do we actually have a picture of nevill Bamber around the time of the massacre? I have only seen ones of his and June's wedding, him at shelias wedding, the 77 juberliee one, and the one of him in the Whitehouse kitchen cradling one of the children ( also includes Jeremy who appears to be eating cereal) I wouldn't classify his hair on those photos as long



Other than it looking thick at the hairline you wouldn't see the length, but if you'd ever caught him hatless on a windy day, you'd have witness him pushing it back from his forehead to keep it out of his eyes. Curly hair can double in length when pulled straight. His hair is likely to have been in the same style when he died as it was when he married. Barring it possibly becoming thinner, men's hairstyles didn't change like they do now.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 17, 2019, 08:23:PM


Other than it looking thick at the hairline you wouldn't see the length, but if you'd ever caught him hatless on a windy day, you'd have witness him pushing it back from his forehead to keep it out of his eyes. Curly hair can double in length when pulled straight. His hair is likely to have been in the same style when he died as it was when he married. Barring it possibly becoming thinner, men's hairstyles didn't change like they do now.
so we don't know for example, he may have visited a barber four days before the massacre, a week before? It doesn't really matter but people do have their hair cut. Myself every four weeks.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Steve_uk on November 17, 2019, 08:24:PM
can I ask you a question, you believe the silencer was used in the massacre?
Yes I do, but even if it wasn't this doesn't make Jeremy Bamber innocent, just that the relatives attempted to shore up the evidence. Of course if the latter is true it's shameful.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 17, 2019, 08:24:PM
Yes I do, but even if it wasn't this doesn't make Jeremy Bamber innocent, just that the relatives attempted to shore up the evidence. Of course if the latter is true it's shameful.

It would be more than shameful.  ::)
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 17, 2019, 08:26:PM
There was no final fight. Sheila was worn out and as June related to her sister on the telephone was about to go to bed. The condition of the nightdress and Sheila's serene face confirm this in my view.
if Shelia was worn out, she wouldn't pose a problem for the murderous Bamber then would she ? Heavier, taller, armed with a rifle and with the element of surprise on his side. This being said. Why did she suffer two gun shot wounds?? When it was supposed to look like a suicide ?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Steve_uk on November 17, 2019, 08:33:PM
if Shelia was worn out, she wouldn't pose a problem for the murderous Bamber then would she ? Heavier, taller, armed with a rifle and with the element of surprise on his side. This being said. Why did she suffer two gun shot wounds?? When it was supposed to look like a suicide ?
Because Jeremy Bamber had been working on the farm for many hours, he had made conversation with Sheila, both things a rare occurrence for him, he had returned to Bourtree Cottage, telephoned Julie for twenty minutes, probably imbibed some central nervous system stimulant to keep him alert, watched Man Alive and a programme on miscarriages (which was the final tipping point as he recalled to himself how shabbily his parents had reacted to Suzette), set off for White House Farm on the bicycle, picked up the rifle where he had left it, entered through a window, proceeded upstairs to shoot the twins, opened the master bedroom to pump bullets into his parents, raced downstairs to reload, faced the confrontation with Nevill in the kitchen, repaired back upstairs to finish June off, then opened Sheila's bedroom door to rouse her to her final destination.

And you ask why thenceforth he made the mistake..
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 17, 2019, 08:33:PM
Yes I do, but even if it wasn't this doesn't make Jeremy Bamber innocent, just that the relatives attempted to shore up the evidence. Of course if the latter is true it's shameful.
can I ask you again, if guilty what purpose did you think Jeremy Bamber used the silencer for?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 17, 2019, 08:35:PM
Because Jeremy Bamber had been working on the farm for many hours, he had made conversation with Sheila, both things a rare occurrence for him, he had returned to Bourtree Cottage, telephoned Julie for twenty minutes, probably imbibed some central nervous system stimulant to keep him alert, watched Man Alive and a programme on miscarriages (which was the final tipping point as he recalled to himself how shabbily his parents had reacted to Suzette), set off for White House Farm on the bicycle, picked up the rifle where he had left it, entered through a window, proceeded upstairs to shoot the twins, opened the master bedroom to pump bullets into his parents, raced downstairs to reload, faced the confrontation with Nevill in the kitchen, repaired back upstairs to finish June off, then opened Sheila's bedroom door to rouse her to her final destination.

And you ask why thenceforth he made the mistake..
  ;D ;D very poor effort, so how does Shelia prevent jeremy from letting him shoot her where he wants. ( By the way remember if you are trying to make Bamber appear off his head he was noted as being remarkably coherent by the officers who were in his company just mere hours later...
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 17, 2019, 08:37:PM
so we don't know for example, he may have visited a barber four days before the massacre, a week before? It doesn't really matter but people do have their hair cut. Myself every four weeks.


He may have, but it wasn't, perhaps, the sort of cut you're imagining. :))
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Steve_uk on November 17, 2019, 08:37:PM
can I ask you again, if guilty what purpose did you think Jeremy Bamber used the silencer for?
He didn't want to deal with the twins waking up, or the sound of the rifle firing waking June, who was a light sleeper and located in close proximity to her grandsons' bedroom.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 17, 2019, 08:42:PM
He didn't want to deal with the twins waking up, or the sound of the rifle firing waking June, who was a light sleeper and located in close proximity to her grandsons' bedroom.
are you aware that the purpose of silencer is to muffle the sound of a discharge to prevent animals being altered to it when be hunted. So they don't have time to make a reaction. It's proper name is a moderator. In a house with three adults, and two kids. Where an individual is trying to murder them. It would be useless....
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 17, 2019, 08:44:PM
Where was Sheila when her children were being shot ?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 17, 2019, 08:45:PM

He may have, but it wasn't, perhaps, the sort of cut you're imagining. :))
maybe not, but remember his hair was not long by typical woman standards and if cut would appear shorter. Armed with this and his frame and six foot four build. I am at loss as to why Collins identified him as a woman....
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 17, 2019, 08:48:PM
Where was Sheila when her children were being shot ?

Good question. Did she hear nothing? Did her mother call out when she got shot?

Sheila's bed was slightly ruffled but it didn't look like she'd actually been sleeping in it.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 17, 2019, 08:48:PM
are you aware that the purpose of silencer is to muffle the sound of a discharge to prevent animals being altered to it when be hunted. So they don't have time to make a reaction. It's proper name is a moderator. In a house with three adults, and two kids. Where an individual is trying to murder them. It would be useless....


Jeremy took the gun out to shoot rabbits. Presumably the moderator/silencer was on then. He claims to have left it, coincidentally where Sheila could see it, so it must have still been in situ when he went back.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Adam on November 17, 2019, 08:49:PM
Where was Sheila when her children were being shot ?

Bless Lookout. Still trying.

Asleep? What else would she be doing at 2am?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: guest7363 on November 17, 2019, 08:50:PM
Partially sitting up and leaning slightly to the right. He deduced that from the blood stains. Anyone can have a look at that and work out her position when she was shot.
Can I ask what you mean by partially sitting up Kaldin?   The reason I ask, if she was partially sitting up, wouldn’t she need her hands for support, or do you mean resting her head on the cabinet?  The reason I ask, the further that Sheila is sitting up, from the position she was found, it takes the rifle case exit port further down towards the bottom of the bed, sat upright from that position would see the rifle exit port at the bottom of the bed nearly, possibly two feet further back? Any lifting of the rifle would possibly see the case land on the bed?  I don’t think the cases would reach the further forward position from a sat up position.

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4304
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 17, 2019, 08:52:PM
maybe not, but remember his hair was not long by typical woman standards and if cut would appear shorter. Armed with this and his frame and six foot four build. I am at loss as to why Collins identified him as a woman....

Doesn't that rather depend on how it was cut? He didn't look 6'4" when he was laying sprawled out of a chair with his head resting on a coal scuttle.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 17, 2019, 08:59:PM

Jeremy took the gun out to shoot rabbits. Presumably the moderator/silencer was on then. He claims to have left it, coincidentally where Sheila could see it, so it must have still been in situ when he went back.
there is no mention of it though is there. The silencer moderator as I've explained would be essentially useless. For reasons I've stated
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 17, 2019, 09:00:PM
Doesn't that rather depend on how it was cut? He didn't look 6'4" when he was laying sprawled out of a chair with his head resting on a coal scuttle.
oh come on Jane please .....
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 17, 2019, 09:02:PM
We can determine sexes in utter darkness and from distance
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: guest7363 on November 17, 2019, 09:06:PM
Can I ask what you mean by partially sitting up Kaldin?   The reason I ask, if she was partially sitting up, wouldn’t she need her hands for support, or do you mean resting her head on the cabinet?  The reason I ask, the further that Sheila is sitting up, from the position she was found, it takes the rifle case exit port further down towards the bottom of the bed, sat upright from that position would see the rifle exit port at the bottom of the bed nearly, possibly two feet further back? Any lifting of the rifle would possibly see the case land on the bed?  I don’t think the cases would reach the further forward position from a sat up position.

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4304
Makes you wonder why she would choose such an uncomfortable position to kill herself? 


http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4312

I would have honestly though she would do it in the twins room to be with them, there’s actually room to lie down between the twins beds on the floor.

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4073
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Steve_uk on November 17, 2019, 09:06:PM
  ;D ;D very poor effort, so how does Shelia prevent jeremy from letting him shoot her where he wants. ( By the way remember if you are trying to make Bamber appear off his head he was noted as being remarkably coherent by the officers who were in his company just mere hours later...
No Ann Eaton noted that morning he had pupils like saucers, a sure sign of drug intake. Sheila was taking medication for schizophrenia ilovebooze-have you got that yet? Do you understand how such medication works and its side effects? Do you understand why Sheila, worn out even at the Saturday party five days prior made no reaction when the twins climbed up onto her knee?

Have you got it yet ilovebooze, has the penny dropped yet..
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 17, 2019, 09:11:PM
No Ann Eaton noted that morning he had pupils like saucers, a sure sign of drug intake. Sheila was taking medication for schizophrenia ilovebooze-have you got that yet? Do you understand how such medication works and its side effects? Do you understand why Sheila, worn out even at the Saturday party five days prior made no reaction when the twins climbed up onto her knee?

Have you got it yet ilovebooze, has the penny dropped yet..
so Shelia was knackered then. How does the six foot tall 12 13 stone Bamber fail to overcome to kill her with one shot then? If she's so zombied out shed offer no resistance would she? ...
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 17, 2019, 09:11:PM
oh come on Jane please .....


Come on Jane, WHAT!!!! You ask for opinions and then ridicule them in every way possible. I wasn't there. I have NO idea what that policeman saw. All I know is what he said he thought he saw. Oh, and a little bit about hair.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 17, 2019, 09:13:PM
No Ann Eaton noted that morning he had pupils like saucers, a sure sign of drug intake. Sheila was taking medication for schizophrenia ilovebooze-have you got that yet? Do you understand how such medication works and its side effects? Do you understand why Sheila, worn out even at the Saturday party five days prior made no reaction when the twins climbed up onto her knee?

Have you got it yet ilovebooze, has the penny dropped yet..
then if Anne Eaton registers him being off his head. How come bews didn't ? How come saxby didn't ? Or myall? He was perfectly sober wasn't he???
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Steve_uk on November 17, 2019, 09:13:PM
so Shelia was knackered then. How does the six foot tall 12 13 stone Bamber fail to overcome to kill her with one shot then? If she's so zombied out shed offer no resistance would she? ...
Because he messed the angle up, or thought he had and panicked by discharging a second shot.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 17, 2019, 09:14:PM
No Ann Eaton noted that morning he had pupils like saucers, a sure sign of drug intake. Sheila was taking medication for schizophrenia ilovebooze-have you got that yet? Do you understand how such medication works and its side effects? Do you understand why Sheila, worn out even at the Saturday party five days prior made no reaction when the twins climbed up onto her knee?

Have you got it yet ilovebooze, has the penny dropped yet..





It would have been the Valium that the GP prescribed for JB that made his eyes weird.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 17, 2019, 09:17:PM




It would have been the Valium that the GP prescribed for JB that made his eyes weird.


What reason would Jeremy have to be on Valium before the murders?.........................Unless he took them in anticipation? ;)
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 17, 2019, 09:17:PM
Can I ask what you mean by partially sitting up Kaldin?   The reason I ask, if she was partially sitting up, wouldn’t she need her hands for support, or do you mean resting her head on the cabinet?  The reason I ask, the further that Sheila is sitting up, from the position she was found, it takes the rifle case exit port further down towards the bottom of the bed, sat upright from that position would see the rifle exit port at the bottom of the bed nearly, possibly two feet further back? Any lifting of the rifle would possibly see the case land on the bed?  I don’t think the cases would reach the further forward position from a sat up position.

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4304

It's not really me who said that RJ, it was Dr Vanezis, who did the post mortem.

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,988.msg29919.html#msg29919

I said earlier that I don't understand how she could be partially sitting up, unless she was leaning on her hands - that would mean that Jeremy shot her. She can't have been leaning on the cabinet because of the position her body was found in.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 17, 2019, 09:20:PM
No Ann Eaton noted that morning he had pupils like saucers, a sure sign of drug intake. Sheila was taking medication for schizophrenia ilovebooze-have you got that yet? Do you understand how such medication works and its side effects? Do you understand why Sheila, worn out even at the Saturday party five days prior made no reaction when the twins climbed up onto her knee?

Have you got it yet ilovebooze, has the penny dropped yet..

I thought drugs made your pupils smaller.

Ann Eaton again.  ::) Perhaps it was dark in the house, so his pupils enlarged.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 17, 2019, 09:21:PM


What reason would Jeremy have to be on Valium before the murders?.........................Unless he took them in anticipation? ;)





I thought it was after the murders that AE started her spying ?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Steve_uk on November 17, 2019, 09:21:PM




It would have been the Valium that the GP prescribed for JB that made his eyes weird.
That was not prescribed until a day afterwards.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: guest7363 on November 17, 2019, 09:22:PM
It's not really me who said that RJ, it was Dr Vanezis, who did the post mortem.

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,988.msg29919.html#msg29919

I said earlier that I don't understand how she could be partially sitting up, unless she was leaning on her hands - that would mean that Jeremy shot her. She can't have been leaning on the cabinet because of the position her body was found in.
Thanks Kaldin, the picture says an awful lot for me and it’s something I never really focused on before.  It just seems such an awkward position to kill oneself or to kill somebody?  I’m going on the theory that Sheila committed suicide but it just doesn’t fit right from that position.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 17, 2019, 09:22:PM
She'd never shown interest before ?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 17, 2019, 09:24:PM
I could suggest that Jeremy took valium to calm his nerves after all he'd just learned that five members of his family had died . But of course that's not logical... Like at the same time it's not logical to think how Jeremy wouldn't be able to murder his sister ( by gulity posters accounts heavily sedated and more or less comatosed) with one shot.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 17, 2019, 09:25:PM
Thanks Kaldin, the picture says an awful lot for me and it’s something I never really focused on before.  It just seems such an awkward position to kill oneself or to kill somebody?  I’m going on the theory that Sheila committed suicide but it just doesn’t fit right from that position.

If she did kill herself, she must have been sitting up before the first shot. I can't see how she could be partially sitting up because she'd need both hands to shoot herself. If she shot herself sitting up she could have fallen or laid back and had to move her head to avoid the cabinet before shooting herself again. In the photos the angles seem wrong, but that could be distortion of the photos.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 17, 2019, 09:26:PM

Come on Jane, WHAT!!!! You ask for opinions and then ridicule them in every way possible. I wasn't there. I have NO idea what that policeman saw. All I know is what he said he thought he saw. Oh, and a little bit about hair.
  the difference between me and you is that your opinions have no logic. Mine do
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 17, 2019, 09:26:PM
I can't find a reference to Ann Eaton mentioning Jeremy's eyes in her statements.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 17, 2019, 09:26:PM




I thought it was after the murders that AE started her spying ?

I think Ann noted his pupils later that morning. Unless the good doctor just happened to have slipped him something privately, there'd have been no dispensing chemists around. It would also have to have been something he'd taken VERY much earlier than when Ann saw him to have had such a noticeable effect.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 17, 2019, 09:28:PM
I can't find a reference to Ann Eaton mentioning Jeremy's eyes in her statements.


Yes, that seems to be something else you've had a problem with.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 17, 2019, 09:28:PM
If she did kill herself, she must have been sitting up before the first shot. I can't see how she could be partially sitting up because she'd need both hands to shoot herself. If she shot herself sitting up she could have fallen or laid back and had to move her head to avoid the cabinet before shooting herself again. In the photos the angles seem wrong, but that could be distortion of the photos.





I don't think that second shot was intentional-----obviously. As Sheila fired the first shot she'd have fallen back as anyone would and in doing so that other shot went off.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 17, 2019, 09:29:PM

Yes, that seems to be something else you've had a problem with.

Perhaps you could link to her statement where she says that.

If you can't, it's just hearsay again - something you seem to have a problem with.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 17, 2019, 09:30:PM




I don't think that second shot was intentional-----obviously. As Sheila fired the first shot she'd have fallen back as anyone would and in doing so that other shot went off.

In that case would the gun be pointing under her chin though?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 17, 2019, 09:32:PM
I could suggest that Jeremy took valium to calm his nerves after all he'd just learned that five members of his family had died . But of course that's not logical... Like at the same time it's not logical to think how Jeremy wouldn't be able to murder his sister ( by gulity posters accounts heavily sedated and more or less comatosed) with one shot.

Where would he have got them from? WHF is in the middle of a field off a country lane several miles from towns in any direction. Perhaps Sheila retched or burped as he took the first shot? ;)
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 17, 2019, 09:33:PM




I don't think that second shot was intentional-----obviously. As Sheila fired the first shot she'd have fallen back as anyone would and in doing so that other shot went off.
vanesiz stated the first shot caused minimal damage, if she is still able to stand and walk ( as the expert in 85 claims ) she is still able to pull a trigger a second time isn't she,???
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 17, 2019, 09:34:PM
In that case would the gun be pointing under her chin though?





Yes, she'd have still been holding it and because of its length it would hit the same area. It was a semi-automatic and she wasn't familiar with its workings.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 17, 2019, 09:35:PM
I'm now going by how the rifle was found on her body----it was still there wasn't it ?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 17, 2019, 09:37:PM
Perhaps you could link to her statement where she says that.

If you can't, it's just hearsay again - something you seem to have a problem with.


You're the one who's interested. You find it.  There are numerous others who know exactly what I know, because it's been bandied about so often,  ie that Ann Eaton noted that Jeremy's pupils were dilated.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 17, 2019, 09:42:PM

You're the one who's interested. You find it.  There are numerous others who know exactly what I know, because it's been bandied about so often,  ie that Ann Eaton noted that Jeremy's pupils were dilated.

There's no evidence that she said that. I suppose it's from one of those books some of you have read.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: guest7363 on November 17, 2019, 09:42:PM
If she did kill herself, she must have been sitting up before the first shot. I can't see how she could be partially sitting up because she'd need both hands to shoot herself. If she shot herself sitting up she could have fallen or laid back and had to move her head to avoid the cabinet before shooting herself again. In the photos the angles seem wrong, but that could be distortion of the photos.
Thats how I see it as well, impossible to partially sit up, I’ve just done a little experiment with a broom handle and marked what I thought gun length, as I said it takes the ejection port nearly to the bed bottom.  It is then virtually impossible to fall back and not hit your head on the cabinet, unless you have control and look behind you. 

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4314


This then questions how the shell casings are so far forward if the ejection port is towards the bed bottom.  The ejection port is clearly on the right and I cannot see how it could throw to the left.


http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4485;image

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4360;image

You can see the exit port near his hand.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 17, 2019, 09:45:PM
There's no evidence that she said that. I suppose it's from one of those books some of you have read.


That would have to mean that everyone here has read the same book. Unlikely. This has been something which has been known and discussed here since I was a Jeremy supporter back in 2011?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: guest7363 on November 17, 2019, 09:46:PM
Is This the length of the rifle with silencer attached?

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=6044
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 17, 2019, 09:47:PM
Thats how I see it as well, impossible to partially sit up, I’ve just done a little experiment with a broom handle and marked what I thought gun length, as I said it takes the ejection port nearly to the bed bottom.  It is then virtually impossible to fall back and not hit your head on the cabinet, unless you have control and look behind you. 

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4314


This then questions how the shell casings are so far forward if the ejection port is towards the bed bottom.  The ejection port is clearly on the right and I cannot see how it could throw to the left.


http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4485;image

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4360;image

You can see the exit port near his hand.


All I can think of is that she was shot, or shot herself, when sitting up, then slid backwards and her head slid to the right because of the cabinet.

I do have a problem with the photo of Sheila. I don't see how she or Jeremy could get the right angle for that last bullet. It might be distortion and perhaps her head isn't angled so much.

I'm not sure why the cartridges are where they are - I would expect them to be further towards her feet but maybe they bounce or something?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 17, 2019, 09:47:PM

That would have to mean that everyone here has read the same book. Unlikely. This has been something which has been known and discussed here since I was a Jeremy supporter back in 2011?

Hearsay.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 18, 2019, 12:07:AM
Do we actually have a picture of nevill Bamber around the time of the massacre? I have only seen ones of his and June's wedding, him at shelias wedding, the 77 juberliee one, and the one of him in the Whitehouse kitchen cradling one of the children ( also includes Jeremy who appears to be eating cereal) I wouldn't classify his hair on those photos as long

I have seen the crime scene picture of Nevil (horrendous!), his hair is long because he must have had a comb over style. The picture is shocking and I am glad it's NOT on the forum!
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 18, 2019, 12:09:AM
if Shelia was worn out, she wouldn't pose a problem for the murderous Bamber then would she ? Heavier, taller, armed with a rifle and with the element of surprise on his side. This being said. Why did she suffer two gun shot wounds?? When it was supposed to look like a suicide ?

Because he didn't manage to get an immediately fatal shot first time.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 18, 2019, 08:19:AM
Because he didn't manage to get an immediately fatal shot first time.


            "BECAUSE HE DIDN'T MANAGE TO GET AN IMMEDIATELY FATAL FIRST SHOT FIRST TIME"

One would imagine that such a perfectly clear and concise answer, to the FAQ, "Why did he shoot her twice?" -actually, the ONLY answer which fits- would be enough. WRONG!!!  We know this answer to be true because there are two bullet holes which confirm it. We don't need to have been there. However, we DO need to have been there to answer, what amounted to, nothing more than some fatuous and inane questions -claims- which arose.   

Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 18, 2019, 08:50:AM
In the mouth would have got an immediate result. Why didn't he do that if he's such a monster ? The opportunity was there with a heavily sedated Sheila. This is the first area of the body when someone takes their own life whether it be a handgun or a rifle.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 18, 2019, 09:41:AM
In the mouth would have got an immediate result. Why didn't he do that if he's such a monster ? The opportunity was there with a heavily sedated Sheila. This is the first area of the body when someone takes their own life whether it be a handgun or a rifle.

Maybe she refused to open her mouth. If we accept she'd have been terrified, we must also accept that terror can paralyze. Sure, he could have forced the gun into her mouth but he might have broken her teeth. How was that going to look like suicide? It may simply be that he didn't fancy getting sprayed with the inevitable and resultant gore from a mouth shot?

The thought has just occurred to me that, if we go down the route of Sheila committing suicide, why would she not have taken the mouth shot. If nothing else, it would have made the barrel length more manageable.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 18, 2019, 09:51:AM
Maybe she refused to open her mouth. If we accept she'd have been terrified, we must also accept that terror can paralyze. Sure, he could have forced the gun into her mouth but he might have broken her teeth. How was that going to look like suicide? It may simply be that he didn't fancy getting sprayed with the inevitable and resultant gore from a mouth shot?

The thought has just occurred to me that, if we go down the route of Sheila committing suicide, why would she not have taken the mouth shot. If nothing else, it would have made the barrel length more manageable.





She was sedated, remember, so a refusal not to open her mouth wasn't an option was it ?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 18, 2019, 09:58:AM




She was sedated, remember, so a refusal not to open her mouth wasn't an option was it ?


Sedation takes many forms. She wasn't comatose. She could still have been paralyzed by fear.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 18, 2019, 10:37:AM

Sedation takes many forms. She wasn't comatose. She could still have been paralyzed by fear.




All the more reason for her to have been manipulated easier.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 18, 2019, 10:42:AM



All the more reason for her to have been manipulated easier.


He MIGHT have forced her to do anything, but force might have shown and how was that going to look like suicide?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 18, 2019, 10:47:AM

He MIGHT have forced her to do anything, but force might have shown and how was that going to look like suicide?




There wasn't even a scratch mark between them, or any other defence injury, so there was no sign of force nor struggle. Not even a dog bite-----unless it had jumped up at Sheila and bit her belly in fear ?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 18, 2019, 10:56:AM



There wasn't even a scratch mark between them, or any other defence injury, so there was no sign of force nor struggle. Not even a dog bite-----unless it had jumped up at Sheila and bit her belly in fear ?


Well, I don't imagine there would have been. We can't have Sheila as being so sedated as to be totally compliant AND have her clawing like a wild cat. I feel that lack of injury suggests more compliance than fight.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 18, 2019, 11:06:AM

Well, I don't imagine there would have been. We can't have Sheila as being so sedated as to be totally compliant AND have her clawing like a wild cat. I feel that lack of injury suggests more compliance than fight.




Even Nevill hadn't fought back which I thought unusual for a big strapping fellow. Not even a bruise on JB from a good hard thump .
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 18, 2019, 11:08:AM
Seems like they all just sat back waiting for it to happen ? Without a thought about defending the children.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 18, 2019, 11:21:AM
Seems like they all just sat back waiting for it to happen ? Without a thought about defending the children.

If he killed the twins first, they wouldn't need defending and Sheila would be grief stricken.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 18, 2019, 01:18:PM
If he killed the twins first, they wouldn't need defending and Sheila would be grief stricken.




I have yet to understand that apart from 3 adults and a shooter who couldn't be in all the rooms at the same time----and telephones in the house that nobody attempted to do anything for attention even to hiding outside with a shotgun to fire in the air to draw attention to the nearest cottages. I'd have taken my chances to at least save my own skin in order to report what went on.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 18, 2019, 01:39:PM



I have yet to understand that apart from 3 adults and a shooter who couldn't be in all the rooms at the same time----and telephones in the house that nobody attempted to do anything for attention even to hiding outside with a shotgun to fire in the air to draw attention to the nearest cottages. I'd have taken my chances to at least save my own skin in order to report what went on.

Well, it's clear we're all different. In an emergency, YOU, I, others here, would, HAVE! taken action immediately.  Yet you are so understanding that Jeremy didn't? I have yet to understand that.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: guest7363 on November 18, 2019, 01:51:PM
Its a puzzle, but every picture tells a story.  The two empty shell cases were in position when the police arrived and forced entry.  The body of Sheila was in position, it just seems an unnatural position for someone who had committed suicide, the positioning of the head doesn’t look right for someone Who, had  shot them self.

I believe

Sheila was sat upright with her back to the bedside cabinet, in this position she was shot once, this was the non fatal shot to the neck, the rifle then ejects the case which is DRH2, this case is further forward than DRH1.  The killer realises that Sheila is still alive and either panics or wants to make sure, she may have given the impression it wasn’t a fatal shot.  Realising the shot across the neck hasn’t worked, he wants to get a better shot more up through jaw and into the brain, so he drags her feet down enough to take her body off the bedside cabinet, (I’ve tried this twice and my head ended up the same position as Sheila’s) the head falls to the right of the cabinet because she’s more over to the right of the cabinet, he doesn’t want to pull her too far because it takes the victim away from the first shot area.  He turns the rifle upside down with the trigger pointing upwards and fires the second shot, this sends DRH1 case to the left. He then places the rifle onto the victims body. 

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4072;image

In the position Sheila was in, I don’t think she could have sat upright and shot herself and ended up falling back without hitting some part of her head on the cabinet, it’s more like a controlled pulling back of the body.

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4312
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 18, 2019, 01:54:PM
In the mouth would have got an immediate result. Why didn't he do that if he's such a monster ? The opportunity was there with a heavily sedated Sheila. This is the first area of the body when someone takes their own life whether it be a handgun or a rifle.

And risk knocking her teeth out. That wouldn’t look like suicide.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 18, 2019, 02:03:PM
Well, it's clear we're all different. In an emergency, YOU, I, others here, would, HAVE! taken action immediately.  Yet you are so understanding that Jeremy didn't? I have yet to understand that.




Because if the matter had been reported after having been repeated umpteen times and if RWB had had a word to Nevill then the tragedy wouldn't have happened.

I'm working on the premise that had Jeremy been guilty and anyone who knowingly knew he'd been involved with murder then they should also face up to it.

When Gary Newlove was murdered, the one who'd driven the thugs around was also imprisoned and he was only sitting in the car-----but nevertheless was still part of the crime. He may not have known what was to happen but the fact he was associated with them made him an accessory.

I remain in believing that Jeremy hadn't committed the murders as he was too thick at the time to realise that his sister was more than capable, even if clumsy when handling a rifle.

Jeremy's loose tongue got him where he is, nothing else. His repeated words came in handy to everyone but himself.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 18, 2019, 02:22:PM



Because if the matter had been reported after having been repeated umpteen times and if RWB had had a word to Nevill then the tragedy wouldn't have happened.

I'm working on the premise that had Jeremy been guilty and anyone who knowingly knew he'd been involved with murder then they should also face up to it.

When Gary Newlove was murdered, the one who'd driven the thugs around was also imprisoned and he was only sitting in the car-----but nevertheless was still part of the crime. He may not have known what was to happen but the fact he was associated with them made him an accessory.

I remain in believing that Jeremy hadn't committed the murders as he was too thick at the time to realise that his sister was more than capable, even if clumsy when handling a rifle.

Jeremy's loose tongue got him where he is, nothing else. His repeated words came in handy to everyone but himself.

The guy who did the driving would have been convicted under joint enterprise. Julie was no where near WHF on the murder night and as already stated, not reporting a crime isn't a crime - perhaps it should be, but it's not.

Why do you keep saying that Jeremy was 'stupid'? Both Kaldin and ILB think he was too clever - he can't be both!
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 18, 2019, 02:28:PM
And risk knocking her teeth out. That wouldn’t look like suicide.




Suicide or not the teeth would be at risk either way.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 18, 2019, 02:29:PM
The guy who did the driving would have been convicted under joint enterprise. Julie was no where near WHF on the murder night and as already stated, not reporting a crime isn't a crime - perhaps it should be, but it's not.

Why do you keep saying that Jeremy was 'stupid'? Both Kaldin and ILB think he was too clever - he can't be both!




I've always said that he's stupid, intelligent but not clever.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 18, 2019, 02:33:PM



Because if the matter had been reported after having been repeated umpteen times and if RWB had had a word to Nevill then the tragedy wouldn't have happened.

I'm working on the premise that had Jeremy been guilty and anyone who knowingly knew he'd been involved with murder then they should also face up to it.

When Gary Newlove was murdered, the one who'd driven the thugs around was also imprisoned and he was only sitting in the car-----but nevertheless was still part of the crime. He may not have known what was to happen but the fact he was associated with them made him an accessory.

I remain in believing that Jeremy hadn't committed the murders as he was too thick at the time to realise that his sister was more than capable, even if clumsy when handling a rifle.

Jeremy's loose tongue got him where he is, nothing else. His repeated words came in handy to everyone but himself.

The problem is that when someone makes such a huge statement such as wanting to commit suicide/commit murder, they're often not taken seriously until they do it. A doctor can do nothing about a potential suicide until they're approached by the person who wants to do it. The police can do nothing about someone saying they want to do harm to another until that act of harm has occurred. How many times have you heard it said that he/she had often spoken about it but it never occurred to anyone that they'd actually go through with it?


As Gary Newlove's thug driver was very much part of his murder as he drove his fellow thugs. Jeremy did it on his own.

I see it in the reverse order. Jeremy planned to carry out the murders whilst Sheila was there because he could use her illness to make it look as if she was responsible and get rid of the whole family in one fell swoop. He really wasn't as thick as you like to believe. He was canny. He'd managed to survive on his own during two trips to Oz and he'd set himself up with a convenient little earner with his drugs business, and managed to supplement it by breaking into the office at the Leisure Park and stealing the cash.

If Jeremy had repeated those words as frequently as you claim, you may rest assured that he definitely had murder in mind.

Just a thought. Would you believe it if your brother came to tell you that one of your children was threatening to kill you?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 18, 2019, 02:34:PM
The guy who did the driving would have been convicted under joint enterprise. Julie was no where near WHF on the murder night and as already stated, not reporting a crime isn't a crime - perhaps it should be, but it's not.

Why do you keep saying that Jeremy was 'stupid'? Both Kaldin and ILB think he was too clever - he can't be both!




As I said, Caroline, JB was forever repeating what he was going to do to the family, according to JM's statements. Well I'm afraid I'd have been well gone from his life if I'd had to put up with that  then told everyone he was a crackpot, besides telling the police.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 18, 2019, 02:36:PM



Suicide or not the teeth would be at risk either way.


That's an avoidance answer, Lookout.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 18, 2019, 02:37:PM

That's an avoidance answer, Lookout.




No it isn't.I answered your query.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 18, 2019, 02:43:PM



No it isn't.I answered your query.


It sounds very much like an excuse, but let's just suppose she's gripped her teeth tightly shut. What's he going to do other than push the nozzle against them and blast them. I imagine any damage would look rather different had she opened her own mouth an pushed the barrel in.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 18, 2019, 03:13:PM



Suicide or not the teeth would be at risk either way.
She's not going to shoot herself through gritted teeth is she?  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 18, 2019, 03:22:PM
She's not going to shoot herself through gritted teeth is she?  ;D ;D ;D



C'mon, Lookout. It's a valid point. Ya have to allow that :)) :)) :))
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 18, 2019, 03:42:PM

It sounds very much like an excuse, but let's just suppose she's gripped her teeth tightly shut. What's he going to do other than push the nozzle against them and blast them. I imagine any damage would look rather different had she opened her own mouth an pushed the barrel in.




If she'd gritted her teeth then it would have meant that the rest of her body would have reacted, flailing arms etc. scratching of the face. It wouldn't have been fired against her teeth as there wouldn't  have been the desired effect.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 18, 2019, 03:48:PM



If she'd gritted her teeth then it would have meant that the rest of her body would have reacted, flailing arms etc. scratching of the face. It wouldn't have been fired against her teeth as there wouldn't  have been the desired effect.


I can grit my teeth without tensing the rest of my body. If you've now decided on Sheila as a wild cat the most she could have done, from floor level, was move the barrel of the rifle. Of course he wouldn't have fired it against her teeth. Unlike you, I don't believe he was thick and he certainly wasn't stupid enough to deliberately turn a suicide lookalike into a murder.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 18, 2019, 03:57:PM

I can grit my teeth without tensing the rest of my body. If you've now decided on Sheila as a wild cat the most she could have done, from floor level, was move the barrel of the rifle. Of course he wouldn't have fired it against her teeth. Unlike you, I don't believe he was thick and he certainly wasn't stupid enough to deliberately turn a suicide lookalike into a murder.




But 2 shots doesn't look like a suicide in anyone's books does it ? That's what I mean by being stupid.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 18, 2019, 04:06:PM



But 2 shots doesn't look like a suicide in anyone's books does it ? That's what I mean by being stupid.

I'm really not sure why people can't get this ..... Jeremy didn't MEAN, PLAN or WANT to shoot Sheila twice, she wasn't dead after the first shot through the neck. A shot he hoped would kill her. Left with the alternative of her being found alive and able to point the finger at him - he had no choice but to make sure she was dead.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 18, 2019, 04:50:PM
I'm really not sure why people can't get this ..... Jeremy didn't MEAN, PLAN or WANT to shoot Sheila twice, she wasn't dead after the first shot through the neck. A shot he hoped would kill her. Left with the alternative of her being found alive and able to point the finger at him - he had no choice but to make sure she was dead.





Which makes him stupid to think that 2 shots spelt suicide. Why didn't he know or realise that ?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 18, 2019, 04:55:PM




Which makes him stupid to think that 2 shots spelt suicide. Why didn't he know or realise that ?

Seriously, you have just askd the same question as I have already answered. No matter how many times you ask it, the answer will be the same. Whether he realised it or not, he had no CHOICE. The only other option was to hope she died after one shot but if she didn't - he was toast!
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Adam on November 18, 2019, 05:21:PM
Bamber knew where on Sheila to put the rifle.

The first shot was perfectly placed to cause death. But not instantly.

The second shot was two inches away from the first. It was perfectly placed to & cause instant death.

Sheila would have had no idea where to put the rifle.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Adam on November 18, 2019, 05:33:PM
David has kindly provided sources which show that 2 shot suicides have happened.

Bamber should have been aware of this during his months of preparation. It would just mean a visit to the library. 

After needing 8 shots for Nevill. No one will be surprised Sheila had to shoot herself twice. Besides which she was still breathing after the first shot.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Adam on November 18, 2019, 05:36:PM
After the police told Bamber Sheila could not have fired the second shot, he said Crispy did!

That was around the same time he said Nevill may have said 'she' on the phone. Who 'she' could have been, he never said. 

Oh dear.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 18, 2019, 07:41:PM

How much trouble would Jeremy have overpowering Shelia ?


Which makes him stupid to think that 2 shots spelt suicide. Why didn't he know or realise that ?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 18, 2019, 07:42:PM

Jeremy took the gun out to shoot rabbits. Presumably the moderator/silencer was on then. He claims to have left it, coincidentally where Sheila could see it, so it must have still been in situ when he went back.
does he reference it?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 18, 2019, 07:43:PM
Doesn't that rather depend on how it was cut? He didn't look 6'4" when he was laying sprawled out of a chair with his head resting on a coal scuttle.
he was blatantly a man
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 18, 2019, 07:44:PM
Bamber knew where on Sheila to put the rifle.

The first shot was perfectly placed to cause death. But not instantly.

The second shot was two inches away from the first. It was perfectly placed to & cause instant death.

Sheila would have had no idea where to put the rifle.
what's the logical place do you think she would point it at then ? Her big toe?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 18, 2019, 07:53:PM
Because he messed the angle up, or thought he had and panicked by discharging a second shot.
messed up the angle, he had to make this right. Every other family was dead. He could just hold her and perform a coup de grace???
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Adam on November 18, 2019, 08:09:PM
what's the logical place do you think she would point it at then ? Her big toe?

Not her big toe. Her mouth, forehead, stomach.

If the first shot was going to cause death quickly but not instantly,  wouldn't Sheila know that? The pain & bleeding would be excruciating & she would have been extremely weak & getting weaker. 

Not sure why she would be so keen to fire a second shot.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Adam on November 18, 2019, 08:14:PM
Sheila firing a second shot in the same place was strange.

If she surprisingly thought (wrongly) she was not going to quickly die from the first shot, why choose the same location?

As it happens the second shot killed her instantly.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 18, 2019, 08:18:PM
Nothing strange about the second shot being in the same place when the rifle was still pointing upwards after it had accidentally fired.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 18, 2019, 08:18:PM
Not her big toe. Her mouth, forehead, stomach.

If the first shot was going to cause death quickly but not instantly,  wouldn't Sheila know that? The pain & bleeding would be excruciating & she would have been extremely weak & getting weaker. 

Not sure why she would be so keen to fire a second shot.
on the flip side, it's hard to imagine why the 6 feet Jeremy Bamber would mess up being able to over power a woman shorter , lighter, weaker than him.  It's hard to imagine how much resistance Shelia would put up to stop Bamber from pointing the gun into a position on her body to effect a one shot suicide....
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Adam on November 18, 2019, 08:22:PM
on the flip side, it's hard to imagine why the 6 feet Jeremy Bamber would mess up being able to over power a woman shorter , lighter, weaker than him.  It's hard to imagine how much resistance Shelia would put up to stop Bamber from pointing the gun into a position on her body to effect a one shot suicide....

He was 2 inches away from an 1 bullet instant death shot.

Give the man some slack. He had never tried it before.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 18, 2019, 08:29:PM
Its a puzzle, but every picture tells a story.  The two empty shell cases were in position when the police arrived and forced entry.  The body of Sheila was in position, it just seems an unnatural position for someone who had committed suicide, the positioning of the head doesn’t look right for someone Who, had  shot them self.

I believe

Sheila was sat upright with her back to the bedside cabinet, in this position she was shot once, this was the non fatal shot to the neck, the rifle then ejects the case which is DRH2, this case is further forward than DRH1.  The killer realises that Sheila is still alive and either panics or wants to make sure, she may have given the impression it wasn’t a fatal shot.  Realising the shot across the neck hasn’t worked, he wants to get a better shot more up through jaw and into the brain, so he drags her feet down enough to take her body off the bedside cabinet, (I’ve tried this twice and my head ended up the same position as Sheila’s) the head falls to the right of the cabinet because she’s more over to the right of the cabinet, he doesn’t want to pull her too far because it takes the victim away from the first shot area.  He turns the rifle upside down with the trigger pointing upwards and fires the second shot, this sends DRH1 case to the left. He then places the rifle onto the victims body. 

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4072;image

In the position Sheila was in, I don’t think she could have sat upright and shot herself and ended up falling back without hitting some part of her head on the cabinet, it’s more like a controlled pulling back of the body.

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4312

That's a very interesting scenario. I think that the position of her legs is quite strange - they're perfectly straight.

I wondered if she was backing away from Jeremy, and ended up on the floor. She could still back away by leaning on her hands and moving backwards - hence the "partially" sitting position.

Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: guest7363 on November 18, 2019, 08:45:PM
That's a very interesting scenario. I think that the position of her legs is quite strange - they're perfectly straight.

I wondered if she was backing away from Jeremy, and ended up on the floor. She could still back away by leaning on her hands and moving backwards - hence the "partially" sitting position.
Thanks Kaldin, I tried the pull back twice and my head dropped to the side of the bedside cupboard in an exact same position, I did sit a little more to the right away from the bed.   With Sheila, you could be right, but considering they had a long chat in the field while Jeremy was on the tractor, it could be she wanted to end her life anyway.  If we can believe she would kill her twin boys it’s not as daft as it sounds, but I think what you say is more feasible. 
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 18, 2019, 08:52:PM
He was 2 inches away from an 1 bullet instant death shot.

Give the man some slack. He had never tried it before.
on the flip side I imagine Shelia had never tried suicide with a rifle. But it doesn't take a lot of working out does it.....
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: guest7363 on November 18, 2019, 08:57:PM
That's a very interesting scenario. I think that the position of her legs is quite strange - they're perfectly straight.

I wondered if she was backing away from Jeremy, and ended up on the floor. She could still back away by leaning on her hands and moving backwards - hence the "partially" sitting position.
Like you said, when we tried the pull back, my legs stayed straight but my head dropped to the side of the cabinet about six inches off the floor and rolled around the side of the cabinet, it didn’t even drop hard on the floor, but it was the same angle as Sheila’s head.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Adam on November 18, 2019, 09:00:PM
on the flip side I imagine Shelia had never tried suicide with a rifle. But it doesn't take a lot of working out does it.....

His first shot was not bad either. He made a quick decision to fire the second shot.

Sheila may have been breathing & even groaning. The pain for her would have been horrendous.

Unlikely she would have still been alive after 1 shot when the police entered WHF. But Bamber did not know that. He wanted to leave WHF with everyone dead.

In hindsite it was a mistake firing the second shot. Inheritance killers do make mistakes, which is why they get caught. Bamber was not smarter than the others.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: guest7363 on November 18, 2019, 09:02:PM
Like you said, when we tried the pull back, my legs stayed straight but my head dropped to the side of the cabinet about six inches off the floor and rolled around the side of the cabinet, it didn’t even drop hard on the floor, but it was the same angle as Sheila’s head.
My only thought was, that the underside of the nighty would have to be adjusted?  But take a look at this photo, there is definitely bunching of the nighty under Sheila as though she’s been pulled back?

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4306

I know the arm is not in the same position, we’ve gone over this before, but that nightie is bunched?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 18, 2019, 09:06:PM
His first shot was not bad either. He made a quick decision to fire the second shot.

Sheila may have been breathing & even groaning. The pain for her would have been horrendous.

Unlikely she would have still been alive after 1 shot when the police entered WHF. But Bamber did not know that. He wanted to leave WHF with everyone dead.

In hindsite it was a mistake firing the second shot. Inheritance killers do make mistakes, which is why they get caught. Bamber was not smarter than the others.
it's slightly different though. This is no Dana ewell. Menendez brothers scenario was it? Bamber was supposed to make it look like his sister had committed suicide ( after massacring the family ) I will ask again. What problems would he occur in shooting his sister in the temple, mouth, between the eyes et Al with one shot. What natural supply of pluck would Shelia find to resist bamber??
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Adam on November 18, 2019, 09:13:PM
it's slightly different though. This is no Dana ewell. Menendez brothers scenario was it? Bamber was supposed to make it look like his sister had committed suicide ( after massacring the family ) I will ask again. What problems would he occur in shooting his sister in the temple, mouth, between the eyes et Al with one shot. What natural supply of pluck would Shelia find to resist bamber??

Well I do not how effective a shot with a rifle for shooting rabbits in those locations would be.

Nevill received 2 head shots and was able to get downstairs & put up a tremendous fight.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 18, 2019, 09:16:PM


Sheila may have been breathing & even groaning. The pain for her would have been horrendous.

Unlikely she would have still been alive after 1 shot when the police entered WHF. But Bamber did not know that. He wanted to leave WHF with everyone dead.. so why does vanesiz state the first shot caused minimal damage ? To quote his own words ( she could stand and walk ) and two in regards to the pain she would have endured   do you think under the circumstances ( Shelia caffell taking her own life) she would have given it more than a moment's thought ( in regards to pain implications)

In hindsite it was a mistake firing the second shot. Inheritance killers do make mistakes, which is why they get caught. Bamber was not smarter than the others.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 18, 2019, 09:16:PM
Thanks Kaldin, I tried the pull back twice and my head dropped to the side of the bedside cupboard in an exact same position, I did sit a little more to the right away from the bed.   With Sheila, you could be right, but considering they had a long chat in the field while Jeremy was on the tractor, it could be she wanted to end her life anyway.  If we can believe she would kill her twin boys it’s not as daft as it sounds, but I think what you say is more feasible.

I think that if Sheila did shoot herself, she was sitting up with her legs straight. It's possible that in that position she couldn't get the right angle, hence the shot to her neck.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 18, 2019, 09:18:PM
Like you said, when we tried the pull back, my legs stayed straight but my head dropped to the side of the cabinet about six inches off the floor and rolled around the side of the cabinet, it didn’t even drop hard on the floor, but it was the same angle as Sheila’s head.

If she had been sitting leaning against the cabinet when the first shot happened, and was then dragged forwards, wouldn't there be blood stains to show that?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 18, 2019, 09:20:PM
Well I do not how effective a shot with a rifle for shooting rabbits in those locations would be.

Nevill received 2 head shots and was able to get downstairs & put up a tremendous fight.
so if you suggest the first shot was near fatal. What do you suggest Shelia would have managed to do, let's say Bamber pissed off back to goldhanger?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: guest7363 on November 18, 2019, 09:23:PM
If she had been sitting leaning against the cabinet when the first shot happened, and was then dragged forwards, wouldn't there be blood stains to show that?
Do you mean on the cabinet Kaldin?  These could easily have been wiped away, he couldn’t risk police discovering any pull back, it means then that Sheila was murdered. 
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 18, 2019, 09:27:PM
Do you mean on the cabinet Kaldin?  These could easily have been wiped away, he couldn’t risk police discovering any pull back, it means then that Sheila was murdered.

I mean on the floor close to the cabinet.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: guest7363 on November 18, 2019, 09:30:PM
I think that if Sheila did shoot herself, she was sitting up with her legs straight. It's possible that in that position she couldn't get the right angle, hence the shot to her neck.
I agree, but if she fell back I think it would have been hard to miss the cabinet there were no marks on her head  and to miss the cabinet I think her body would have twisted.  Her body is more or less straight but her heads isn’t.  Sitting up straight it would have been hard to get the rifle under the chin (more so with a silencer attached) so the shot was in the throat, laying down made it easier to shoot under the chin?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Adam on November 18, 2019, 09:31:PM
so if you suggest the first shot was near fatal. What do you suggest Shelia would have managed to do, let's say Bamber pissed off back to goldhanger?

Bamber would not know what she could or could not do after just 1 shot. Nevill had put up a tremendous fight after 4.

The pathologist said she could have walked around for a bit after the first shot. But the evidence shows she did not.

If Sheila was groaning in pain, that would just encourage Bamber to fire a second shot. He had arrived to carry out a massacre. Not leave a person still alive.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 18, 2019, 09:36:PM
Bamber would not know what she could or could not do after just 1 shot. Nevill had put up a tremendous fight after 4.

The pathologist said she could have walked around for a bit after the first shot. But the evidence shows she did not.

If Sheila was groaning in pain, that would just encourage Bamber to fire a second shot. He had arrived to carry out a massacre. Not leave a person still alive.





Sheila could not and did not walk around after that first shot. I don't care what Vanezis said.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: guest7363 on November 18, 2019, 09:37:PM




Sheila could not and did not walk around after that first shot. I don't care what Vanezis said.
I agree Lookout
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 18, 2019, 09:38:PM




Sheila could not and did not walk around after that first shot. I don't care what Vanezis said.

I agree Lookout, but he didn't actually say she did - just that it was possible. We can tell she didn't because of her nightdress.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Adam on November 18, 2019, 09:39:PM




Sheila could not and did not walk around after that first shot. I don't care what Vanezis said.

Vanezis said she could have walked around. But the evidence shows she did not.

This suggests Sheila was shouting/groaning in pain after the first shot. A second shot was fired soon afterwards.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 18, 2019, 09:41:PM
Vanezis said she could have walked around. But the evidence shows she did not.

This suggests Sheila was shouting/groaning in pain after the first shot. A second shot was fired soon afterwards.




Makes me wonder how many more times he was wrong !
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 18, 2019, 09:43:PM
Vanezis didn't say that Sheila walked around. He merely meant that she could have been conscious and able to stand after that first shot - ie, she wasn't knocked out by it.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 18, 2019, 09:44:PM
Vanezis said she could have walked around. But the evidence shows she did not.

This suggests Sheila was shouting/groaning in pain after the first shot. A second shot was fired soon afterwards.

But he didn't  say she would have. His words have been interpreted as meaning that she did but it's not what he said.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Adam on November 18, 2019, 09:46:PM
Sedated or not, Sheila could have been coughing, shouting, groaning moving her arms & legs.

Bamber had to fire the second shot.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Adam on November 18, 2019, 09:49:PM
45.

Sheila Caffell was also dressed in her nightwear and bare-footed. She had received two contact or near contact bullet wounds to her throat.

The higher of the two wounds would have killed her almost instantaneously.

The lower of the two would have been a fatal injury but not one where death would have occurred immediately and a person having suffered such an injury may have been able to stand up and walk around for a little time. The lack of heavy blood staining to Sheila Caffell's nightdress suggested that this had not happened here. 

Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 18, 2019, 09:59:PM
Sheila had been tearing around the place shooting everyone so no way would she have had the energy to move after the first shot. She would have been exhausted.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 18, 2019, 10:09:PM
Bamber would not know what she could or could not do after just 1 shot. Nevill had put up a tremendous fight after 4.

The pathologist said she could have walked around for a bit after the first shot. But the evidence shows she did not.

If Sheila was groaning in pain, that would just encourage Bamber to fire a second shot. He had arrived to carry out a massacre. Not leave a person still alive.
if Bamber committed the massacre, he would have clear visual vision of shelias condition. He would know if she had fight left in her or was deteriorating
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 18, 2019, 11:36:PM
if Bamber committed the massacre, he would have clear visual vision of shelias condition. He would know if she had fight left in her or was deteriorating

Not if she was unconscious. There is no way he could know if she would survive the first shot or not.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Adam on November 19, 2019, 04:37:AM
if Bamber committed the massacre, he would have clear visual vision of shelias condition. He would know if she had fight left in her or was deteriorating

Not sure he would. If she was groaning, shouting & moving in pain that would have encouraged him to fire the second shot.

Sheila committing suicide is less likely to fire a second shot. She would know that the first shot was going to kill her over the next few minutes.

Be good if you & Kaldin could give your breakdown of how Sheila committed the massacre. Several supporters have. I have given a Bamber breakdown. Just focusing on his minor obstacles & mistakes is the easy way out.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 19, 2019, 08:27:AM



Makes me wonder how many more times he was wrong !


But he wasn't entirely wrong. He was covering all bases by allowing for an element of uncertainty.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 19, 2019, 11:43:AM

But he wasn't entirely wrong. He was covering all bases by allowing for an element of uncertainty.




He was wrong about deciding if there was blood on Sheila's hands or not ? Was she clean, or wasn't she ?
His results hadn't been consistent.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 19, 2019, 07:51:PM
Bamber would not know what she could or could not do after just 1 shot. Nevill had put up a tremendous fight after 4.

The pathologist said she could have walked around for a bit after the first shot. But the evidence shows she did not.

If Sheila was groaning in pain, that would just encourage Bamber to fire a second shot. He had arrived to carry out a massacre. Not leave a person still alive.
It was either a near fatal shot or it was not. What qualifications would Bamber need to possess to assess the situation? Bamber would have wanted to shoot her with one shot. There is no way he would have failed to overpower Shelia to attain that. He would have pointed the gun at her Temple. A quick, clean effective suicide.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 19, 2019, 07:55:PM
He had arrived to carry out a massacre. Not leave a person still alive.
she would have been dying Adam......
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 19, 2019, 08:00:PM
It was either a near fatal shot or it was not. What qualifications would Bamber need to possess to assess the situation? Bamber would have wanted to shoot her with one shot. There is no way he would have failed to overpower Shelia to attain that. He would have pointed the gun at her Temple. A quick, clean effective suicide.

That's just your opinion. He wouldn't have known it was fatal or not, just that she was still alive. Leaving her alive could result in her being able to talk.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 19, 2019, 08:22:PM
That's just your opinion. He wouldn't have known it was fatal or not, just that she was still alive. Leaving her alive could result in her being able to talk.
that's your opinion, she was bleeding profusely wasn't she. She had received to quote vanesiz himself " a life threatening shot " she could stand, how long for? How long would it be, before Shelia would have succumbed? An hour came seem a lifetime in such a scenario
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Steve_uk on November 19, 2019, 08:23:PM
It was either a near fatal shot or it was not. What qualifications would Bamber need to possess to assess the situation? Bamber would have wanted to shoot her with one shot. There is no way he would have failed to overpower Shelia to attain that. He would have pointed the gun at her Temple. A quick, clean effective suicide.
I think the ruse he used was the Bible element to allay her suspicions in entering the master bedroom at that hour and also to infer that her religious mania led to the tragedy, so she would be despatched quicker when she was lying down against the bedside cabinet then Jeremy quickly discharging the bullet into her neck.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 19, 2019, 08:30:PM
I don't think Sheila was lured to the master bedroom. If Jeremy is guilty, he had no reason to want to shoot her in that bedroom. I think she went in there herself - possibly to see what happened to her mother.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 19, 2019, 08:38:PM
It was either a near fatal shot or it was not. What qualifications would Bamber need to possess to assess the situation? Bamber would have wanted to shoot her with one shot. There is no way he would have failed to overpower Shelia to attain that. He would have pointed the gun at her Temple. A quick, clean effective suicide.


 It had to look like suicide, though. I imagine Sheila may have experienced some difficulty in lifting a rifle to her temple and pushing the trigger.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 19, 2019, 08:38:PM
It has no relevance the room Shelia caffell killed herself. ( Speaking from a innocent Bamber scenario)
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 19, 2019, 08:41:PM

 It had to look like suicide, though. I imagine Sheila may have experienced some difficulty in lifting a rifle to her temple and pushing the trigger.
how?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 19, 2019, 08:42:PM
It would have appeared more " authentic " had she been found with the twins. I wonder why that wasn't the case whether it was suicide or not ? A mother will invariably be with her children in any event.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 19, 2019, 08:43:PM
Temple is just one of many possibilities. What stopped him from overpowering her and pointing the gun between eyes. ( A scenario which could be believed if she had been standing up with both hands on the gun.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 19, 2019, 08:48:PM
I wonder why  just June and one of the twins both had shots between their eyes ?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Steve_uk on November 19, 2019, 08:49:PM
I don't think Sheila was lured to the master bedroom. If Jeremy is guilty, he had no reason to want to shoot her in that bedroom. I think she went in there herself - possibly to see what happened to her mother.
Well she had to leave the bedroom sometime that night for her to be scapegoated. Her brother didn't want her to discover what he had done to her sons. The only hiccough was the fight in the kitchen with Nevill.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Steve_uk on November 19, 2019, 08:51:PM
I wonder why  just June and one of the twins both had shots between their eyes ?
Apparently Jeremy was squeamish. Did I read this from Wulie Woo or Brett Collins: I can't remember.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 19, 2019, 09:15:PM
that's your opinion, she was bleeding profusely wasn't she. She had received to quote vanesiz himself " a life threatening shot " she could stand, how long for? How long would it be, before Shelia would have succumbed? An hour came seem a lifetime in such a scenario

And that he would have shot her in the head is your opinion. He didn't say she could stand at all - he said it was possible!
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 19, 2019, 09:16:PM
Temple is just one of many possibilities. What stopped him from overpowering her and pointing the gun between eyes. ( A scenario which could be believed if she had been standing up with both hands on the gun.

How many suicides use a rifle to shoot themselves between the eyes?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 19, 2019, 09:18:PM
Apparently Jeremy was squeamish. Did I read this from Wulie Woo or Brett Collins: I can't remember.




Squeamish when it came to shooting rabbits if their innards were hanging out. He couldn't stand the sight of animals/birds that had been shot-----hence he didn't hold with the shooting of game-birds.
So, if he couldn't stand that, there was nothing down for him when it came to killing humans. He'd have had to have been blindfolded. Which is one reason why I say he didn't do it.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 19, 2019, 09:20:PM



Squeamish when it came to shooting rabbits if their innards were hanging out. He couldn't stand the sight of animals/birds that had been shot-----hence he didn't hold with the shooting of game-birds.
So, if he couldn't stand that, there was nothing down for him when it came to killing humans. He'd have had to have been blindfolded. Which is one reason why I say he didn't do it.

But he was happy enough to go bunny bashing.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 19, 2019, 09:20:PM



Squeamish when it came to shooting rabbits if their innards were hanging out. He couldn't stand the sight of animals/birds that had been shot-----hence he didn't hold with the shooting of game-birds.
So, if he couldn't stand that, there was nothing down for him when it came to killing humans. He'd have had to have been blindfolded. Which is one reason why I say he didn't do it.

What? He said he loaded the gun to shoot rabbits! Lets rewrite more history  ::)
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 19, 2019, 09:24:PM
But he was happy enough to go bunny bashing.





Pretending, I'd have said. He probably shuffled his feet.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 19, 2019, 09:27:PM
What? He said he loaded the gun to shoot rabbits! Lets rewrite more history  ::)





Anyone can load a gun, but carrying out the shooting is another thing. He may have been good at target practice but I doubt he got any prizes for shooting vermin.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 19, 2019, 09:30:PM




Pretending, I'd have said. He probably shuffled his feet.


Surely you're not trying to say he'd never, prior to the murders, shot anything living. Why was it he wanted an automatic until Ann's husband told him it wasn't sportsmanlike? Why did he want ANY gun? Shooting, as a sport, doesn't seem to have been high on his list of priorities whilst he and Julie were together.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 19, 2019, 09:31:PM




Anyone can load a gun, but carrying out the shooting is another thing. He may have been good at target practice but I doubt he got any prizes for shooting vermin.

And yet he said he was going to shoot the rabbits, why did he load the gun to shoot rabbits, if he had no intention of shooting them because he was too squeamish? That makes absolutely no sense at all.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 19, 2019, 09:31:PM




Anyone can load a gun, but carrying out the shooting is another thing. He may have been good at target practice but I doubt he got any prizes for shooting vermin.


I don't imagine prizes are given for shooting vermin.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 19, 2019, 09:35:PM
And that he would have shot her in the head is your opinion. He didn't say she could stand at all - he said it was possible!
and it was also possible ( and more likely) she would have bleeding to death....
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 19, 2019, 09:38:PM
and it was also possible ( and more likely) she would have bleeding to death....

Yeah she would have but Bamber didn't know that!
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 19, 2019, 09:39:PM

Surely you're not trying to say he'd never, prior to the murders, shot anything living. Why was it he wanted an automatic until Ann's husband told him it wasn't sportsmanlike? Why did he want ANY gun? Shooting, as a sport, doesn't seem to have been high on his list of priorities whilst he and Julie were together.





He was a wuss when it came to the nitty-gritty of farming and that includes keeping vermin off the crops.
He probably wanted an automatic because it would have done half the work for him and he'd have had a lackey following him  to pick up if by any chance he'd killed anything.
I think the gun bit was a bit of showing off on his part to be better than anyone else, make/model etc.
We heard very little about his shooting ability or even a photo showing his 4-legged trophies.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 19, 2019, 09:42:PM




He was a wuss when it came to the nitty-gritty of farming and that includes keeping vermin off the crops.
He probably wanted an automatic because it would have done half the work for him and he'd have had a lackey following him  to pick up if by any chance he'd killed anything.
I think the gun bit was a bit of showing off on his part to be better than anyone else, make/model etc.
We heard very little about his shooting ability or even a photo showing his 4-legged trophies.

He shot vermin not big game Lookout!

So why did he take out the rifle that evening? If it wasn't to shoot rabbits, why did he fill the magazine?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 19, 2019, 09:49:PM
He shot vermin not big game Lookout!

So why did he take out the rifle that evening? If it wasn't to shoot rabbits, why did he fill the magazine?





He probably went out for a breather away from the arguing at the supper table. He did what he did for something to do until everyone calmed down then he went home rather than interrupt a heated debate.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 19, 2019, 09:51:PM




He was a wuss when it came to the nitty-gritty of farming and that includes keeping vermin off the crops.
He probably wanted an automatic because it would have done half the work for him and he'd have had a lackey following him  to pick up if by any chance he'd killed anything.
I think the gun bit was a bit of showing off on his part to be better than anyone else, make/model etc.
We heard very little about his shooting ability or even a photo showing his 4-legged trophies.


Lookout, I've no idea where you think they were on the social scale, but they certainly weren't aristocracy. These days, "lackeys" don't follow farmers' sons around picking up the vermin. Beaters attend shoots but that's a whole different ball game. Strange that you claim to have heard little about his prowess, and prizes, with a gun, but claim to know chapter and verse about Sheila gun skills.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 19, 2019, 09:52:PM




He probably went out for a breather away from the arguing at the supper table. He did what he did for something to do until everyone calmed down then he went home rather than interrupt a heated debate.

You do realise that that makes no sense at all right? The man said he loaded the gun to shoot rabbits. I don't believe he did either because the five extra shells on the counter top prove it!
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 19, 2019, 09:58:PM




He probably went out for a breather away from the arguing at the supper table. He did what he did for something to do until everyone calmed down then he went home rather than interrupt a heated debate.


Do you realize that the more you throw in these ridiculous arguments as excuses for him, the more guilty you make him appear. He didn't need to take out a loaded gun, casually leaving a few on the work top, just for effect. If the family was engrossed in a discussion he wasn't part of, no one would have realized he'd gone.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 19, 2019, 09:59:PM
Jeremy couldn't mention that there were already 5 shots loaded in the mag because he said he was in a hurry to shoot the rabbits - so why then did he waste time to open a new box and load more? If he'd mentioned that he used the extra five to shoot at the rabbits, they would have looked for the shells/casings or dead rabbits and found none. He said mag was empty and that he opened a new box - 25 shells were used that night but there were 30 left on the counter!
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 19, 2019, 10:05:PM

Lookout, I've no idea where you think they were on the social scale, but they certainly weren't aristocracy. These days, "lackeys" don't follow farmers' sons around picking up the vermin. Beaters attend shoots but that's a whole different ball game. Strange that you claim to have heard little about his prowess, and prizes, with a gun, but claim to know chapter and verse about Sheila gun skills.





I've never said anything about Sheila's gun skills, rather her lack more than anything, resulting in a damaged silencer and a broken off butt.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 19, 2019, 10:10:PM




I've never said anything about Sheila's gun skills, rather her lack more than anything, resulting in a damaged silencer and a broken off butt.


I feel sure I recall that you've made mention of her shooting holidays in Scotland.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 19, 2019, 10:24:PM

I feel sure I recall that you've made mention of her shooting holidays in Scotland.




No, that was her cousin, DB. You're dreaming again.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 19, 2019, 10:27:PM
It's a farming girl who grew up on a farm, stop relying on relatives who saw people only intermiddetly. Take the blinkers off
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 19, 2019, 10:30:PM
It's a farming girl who grew up on a farm, stop relying on relatives who saw people on intermiddetly. Take the blinkers off

She wasn't a 'farming girl'. She spent most of her youth at boarding schools. She didn't work on the farm. You're making assumptions based on opinion. Colin confirms that Sheila knew nothing about guns.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 19, 2019, 10:32:PM
Would that be intermittently, ILB ?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 19, 2019, 10:34:PM
Would that be intermittently, ILB ?
you know what I meant it's predictive text. Stop being a fool
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 19, 2019, 10:35:PM
Would that be intermittently, ILB ?

Needs more mixer  ;D ;D
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 19, 2019, 10:37:PM
Get back to the kitchen, the pots need washing

We got a dish washer pet!  ;)
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 19, 2019, 10:42:PM
I just smell haddock

Best have a wash then and clean your teeth!
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 19, 2019, 10:43:PM
Best also be careful what you say next!
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 19, 2019, 10:50:PM
She wasn't a 'farming girl'. She spent most of her youth at boarding schools. She didn't work on the farm. You're making assumptions based on opinion. Colin confirms that Sheila knew nothing about guns.
her father was a farmer apart from boarding school she grew up in a farming household. I invite you to find logic and evidence otherwise....
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 19, 2019, 11:27:PM
her father was a farmer apart from boarding school she grew up in a farming household. I invite you to find logic and evidence otherwise....

She grew up on a farm - went to boarding school from aged 8, she didn't work or shoot on the farm. I invite you to prove she did! Her own husband states that she didn't use or like guns. Good luck with the search!
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 20, 2019, 08:05:PM
Her own husband states that she didn't use or like guns. Good luck with the search!
i have a sister. She is married. She is two years my senior. If her husband stated she never showed an interest in football. I'd be able to contradict it.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 20, 2019, 08:17:PM
i have a sister. She is married. She is two years my senior. If her husband stated she never showed an interest in football. I'd be able to contradict it.


I don't doubt that for a moment, but I doubt that Sheila had any interest in football, either.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 20, 2019, 08:40:PM
i have a sister. She is married. She is two years my senior. If her husband stated she never showed an interest in football. I'd be able to contradict it.

Sorry, I fail to see the connection?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 20, 2019, 09:28:PM
Sorry, I fail to see the connection?
read it again, and put Jeremy and Shelia in the scenario
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 20, 2019, 09:37:PM
read it again, and put Jeremy and Shelia in the scenario

I'm sure you sisters husband knows she likes football. Just as Colin knew all about Sheila's lack of experience with guns.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 20, 2019, 09:39:PM
I'm sure you sisters husband knows she likes football. Just as Colin knew all about Sheila's lack of experience with guns.
who met Shelia first? Jeremy or Colin?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 20, 2019, 09:43:PM
Jeremy is taking a gamble isn't he, if he states his sister has knowledge of firearms with so many relatives prepared to contradict him.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 20, 2019, 09:54:PM
Jeremy is taking a gamble isn't he, if he states his sister has knowledge of firearms with so many relatives prepared to contradict him.

The gamble was shooting them all in the first place.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 21, 2019, 07:17:AM
Jeremy is taking a gamble isn't he, if he states his sister has knowledge of firearms with so many relatives prepared to contradict him.


If Sheila had the knowledge of firearms you're implying, the family would have been aware, ie they'd have been at the same shoots. The shooting fraternity being small, they'd have socialized with the same people. There'd have been gun talk when they were together. You may take it as read, that HAD Sheila shown an interest in/had any knowledge of firearms, someone would have come forward.................if only to dispel the myth that this, least likely of women, had no interest in them.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 21, 2019, 09:30:AM
" This woman " was by no means stupid though and had more nouse than her brother.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 21, 2019, 10:29:AM
" This woman " was by no means stupid though and had more nouse than her brother.

This is simply your opinion. If you have any concrete proof of it it would be interesting to hear. It would also be interesting to know how "nous" equates with psychosis. You appear to be suggesting that she'd kept secret for years a love of guns. WHY? Are you also suggesting she'd planned it for years?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 21, 2019, 10:40:AM
This is simply your opinion. If you have any concrete proof of it it would be interesting to hear. It would also be interesting to know how "nous" equates with psychosis. You appear to be suggesting that she'd kept secret for years a love of guns. WHY? Are you also suggesting she'd planned it for years?


 

I'm not suggesting that Sheila had a " love of guns ", nobody in their right senses would have. Neither am I suggesting that she'd been planning the killings either .
All I'd suggested was that Sheila, as a child growing up had appeared to have had more about her than Jeremy as regards common sense and learning and after having spent years on the farm would have watched her father load a gun or two and may have even been by his side when it came to shooting vermin-----we don't know.
DB had admitted showing her about guns in their earlier years, she was always surrounded by them on the farm.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 21, 2019, 11:40:AM

 

I'm not suggesting that Sheila had a " love of guns ", nobody in their right senses would have. Neither am I suggesting that she'd been planning the killings either .
All I'd suggested was that Sheila, as a child growing up had appeared to have had more about her than Jeremy as regards common sense and learning and after having spent years on the farm would have watched her father load a gun or two and may have even been by his side when it came to shooting vermin-----we don't know.
DB had admitted showing her about guns in their earlier years, she was always surrounded by them on the farm.

I watched y father do numerous things when I was "lending him my assistance " as a child. My interest was in being with him. He undoubtedly showed me how to do many things,  all to no avail.  I was very much a girly girl, as going by the girl and subsequently, woman, Sheila became, was she. Showing someone how to do things is wasted if they have no interest in what they're being shown. DB May have had an interest in Sheila that had nothing to do with guns and sed guns as a way of trying to get her focus.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 21, 2019, 01:06:PM

 

I'm not suggesting that Sheila had a " love of guns ", nobody in their right senses would have. Neither am I suggesting that she'd been planning the killings either .
All I'd suggested was that Sheila, as a child growing up had appeared to have had more about her than Jeremy as regards common sense and learning and after having spent years on the farm would have watched her father load a gun or two and may have even been by his side when it came to shooting vermin-----we don't know.
DB had admitted showing her about guns in their earlier years, she was always surrounded by them on the farm.

This is simply not true Lookout. EVERYONE involved had stated that Sheila had no interest in guns, her father had shotguns and DB didn't show her about guns at all, he allowed her to shoot a shotgun into the air. Rewriting history will not spring Bamber.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 21, 2019, 01:10:PM
I watched y father do numerous things when I was "lending him my assistance " as a child. My interest was in being with him. He undoubtedly showed me how to do many things,  all to no avail.  I was very much a girly girl, as going by the girl and subsequently, woman, Sheila became, was she. Showing someone how to do things is wasted if they have no interest in what they're being shown. DB May have had an interest in Sheila that had nothing to do with guns and sed guns as a way of trying to get her focus.

The Bambers were pretty traditional in their expectations, so teaching their daughter about guns would be low on the list. However, in all the newspaper reports about Sheila, there wasn't even one anecdote about what a crack shot she was and how she was totally familiar with guns. It's rubbish.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 21, 2019, 01:25:PM
This is simply not true Lookout. EVERYONE involved had stated that Sheila had no interest in guns, her father had shotguns and DB didn't show her about guns at all, he allowed her to shoot a shotgun into the air. Rewriting history will not spring Bamber.




How could anyone read Sheila's mind ? Not even the psychiatrist managed that one. What she said about not having an interest in guns doesn't really mean a thing one way or the other does it ?

Whether what I say about the history of the case is irrelevant to if he walks or not ?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 21, 2019, 02:50:PM



How could anyone read Sheila's mind ? Not even the psychiatrist managed that one. What she said about not having an interest in guns doesn't really mean a thing one way or the other does it ?

Whether what I say about the history of the case is irrelevant to if he walks or not ?

No one can read Sheila's mind, certainly not you who insists on writing about what Sheila would or wouldn't do having never met her - going against everything that those who did, have said about her. Sheila wasn't familiar with guns - it's a problem for the innocent side but there you go!

He won't walk, the CCRC aren't stupid and are well familiar with the empty submissions.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 21, 2019, 03:31:PM



How could anyone read Sheila's mind ? Not even the psychiatrist managed that one. What she said about not having an interest in guns doesn't really mean a thing one way or the other does it ?

Whether what I say about the history of the case is irrelevant to if he walks or not ?

So the best you can offer to condemn her is that because we don't  know what she was thinking, she MAY have harboured thoughts no one knew about. I guess the same could be said to apply to Jeremy until he voiced them?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 21, 2019, 05:31:PM
I don't understand why you're both so adamant that where Jeremy is, he'll stay ?  Especially since the legal team, who together with the CT have seemingly done their homework in providing more proof that he didn't do it against the court's view that he did.
 If what they've put together is feasible,  then who are you to doubt them ? If you do doubt them drop CT a line and tell them before they make fools of themselves because as sure as Hell I would if I even had an ounce of doubt.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 21, 2019, 05:47:PM
I don't understand why you're both so adamant that where Jeremy is, he'll stay ?  Especially since the legal team, who together with the CT have seemingly done their homework in providing more proof that he didn't do it against the court's view that he did.
 If what they've put together is feasible,  then who are you to doubt them ? If you do doubt them drop CT a line and tell them before they make fools of themselves because as sure as Hell I would if I even had an ounce of doubt.

Hang on! How did the conversation get to where Jeremy is?  It's certainly not about what the CT have interpreted as being proof that he didn't do it, OR what they see as being proof that Sheila did.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Steve_uk on November 21, 2019, 05:48:PM
who met Shelia first? Jeremy or Colin?
From In Search of the Rainbow's End:

For me it was love at first sight. In that enchanted moment, across a smoke-filled Hampstead pub, I had found my fairy-tale princess. Had it not been for the presence of Chris Precious, an old friend of less inhibition, I may never have even spoken to her, but out of his carnal desire for her companion, we were brought together.  Bambs was not only a stunning beauty-with the biggest grey-blue eyes I'd ever seen-she seemed totally unaware of the fact, which made her all the more attractive. I was now twenty-one years old. She was seventeen and a student at St. Godrick's Secretarial College, a very expensive local finishing school.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 21, 2019, 06:17:PM
Wouldn't Jeremy have met her first ? She was his sister. Strange question.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Steve_uk on November 21, 2019, 06:20:PM
Wouldn't Jeremy have met her first ? She was his sister. Strange question.
Yes of course.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 21, 2019, 06:29:PM
Wouldn't Jeremy have met her first ? She was his sister. Strange question.

Have you never heard of sibling rivalry?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Steve_uk on November 21, 2019, 06:36:PM
Have you never heard of sibling rivalry?
I can only assume ilovebooze was unaware of how the Bamber adoptions came about.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 21, 2019, 07:09:PM
Have you never heard of sibling rivalry?





Of course I have, though that doesn't come into it, but you can't help yourself reading things into everything that isn't necessarily there in the first place.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 21, 2019, 07:29:PM
I don't understand why you're both so adamant that where Jeremy is, he'll stay ?  Especially since the legal team, who together with the CT have seemingly done their homework in providing more proof that he didn't do it against the court's view that he did.
 If what they've put together is feasible,  then who are you to doubt them ? If you do doubt them drop CT a line and tell them before they make fools of themselves because as sure as Hell I would if I even had an ounce of doubt.

Not my problem if they make fools of themselves. I have written to them in the past when they have got things wrong on their website, they complained to Jeremy who basically said I should contact him and not them. They once wrote something about Sheila's prints being on the casings, so I questioned it and the reply came from Jeremy who said it was his fault and he had just assumed they were Sheila's - he apologised - admitting he had no evidence to so they were Sheila's.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 21, 2019, 07:30:PM




Of course I have, though that doesn't come into it, but you can't help yourself reading things into everything that isn't necessarily there in the first place.

Lookout, we have Jeremy's own words. "I don't  like her and she doesn't like e".
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 21, 2019, 07:33:PM




Of course I have, though that doesn't come into it, but you can't help yourself reading things into everything that isn't necessarily there in the first place.

Yeah, like Sheila being adept with guns  ::)
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 21, 2019, 07:41:PM
Sheila didn't need to have an interest in guns or a love of shooting, she only needed to know how to load a magazine, fit it to the gun, and fire. 
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 21, 2019, 07:49:PM
Sheila didn't need to have an interest in guns or a love of shooting, she only needed to know how to load a magazine, fit it to the gun, and fire.

And there is no evidence that she did!
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 21, 2019, 07:54:PM
And there is no evidence that she did!

Why would there be?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 21, 2019, 07:57:PM
Why would there be?

Why wouldn't there be?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 21, 2019, 08:01:PM
Why wouldn't there be?

Because none of the relatives would necessarily know about it. Sheila didn't live at the farm, so she wouldn't go on shoots anyway. Colin wouldn't know - they were divorced, and she would hardly have handled a gun in London. Nevill would probably know, but he couldn't tell anyone. Didn't RB say that Jeremy showed Sheila how to load a magazine?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 21, 2019, 08:03:PM
Because none of the relatives would necessarily know about it. Sheila didn't live at the farm, so she wouldn't go on shoots anyway. Colin wouldn't know - they were divorced, and she would hardly have handled a gun in London. Nevill would probably know, but he couldn't tell anyone. Didn't RB say that Jeremy showed Sheila how to load a magazine?

No, he said 'he tried' she wasn't interested.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 21, 2019, 08:18:PM
No, he said 'he tried' she wasn't interested.

Perhaps she was more interested than he thought. It's not that difficult to load bullets is it?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 21, 2019, 08:21:PM
Actually, RB didn't witness that, he allegedly heard it from June.

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,508.msg8673.html#msg8673
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 21, 2019, 08:33:PM
No, he said 'he tried' she wasn't interested.





That wasn't the answer being bandied about was it ? " not interested ". It had been alleged that he'd shown her knowing that at some point she'd be blamed for firing it because of her mental health.?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 21, 2019, 08:33:PM
Lookout, we have Jeremy's own words. "I don't  like her and she doesn't like e".





Where ?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Adam on November 21, 2019, 08:35:PM
And there is no evidence that she did!

No evidence she did on the massacre night?

You forget about Nevill's call to the 5th furthest away police station.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 21, 2019, 08:36:PM
Actually, RB didn't witness that, he allegedly heard it from June.

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,508.msg8673.html#msg8673




More" he said ,she said ". That's all the trial was based on. Their words only.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 21, 2019, 08:37:PM
I can only assume ilovebooze was unaware of how the Bamber adoptions came about.
no I meant Jeremy knew Shelia as much as colin
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 21, 2019, 08:41:PM
no I meant Jeremy knew Shelia as much as colin

 


No he didn't. Colin had been married to her so he knew how violent that Sheila could be, Jeremy didn't have a clue.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Steve_uk on November 21, 2019, 08:59:PM
They both knew Sheila was ill.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 21, 2019, 09:07:PM



No he didn't. Colin had been married to her so he knew how violent that Sheila could be, Jeremy didn't have a clue.

Sheila  WASN'T violent.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 21, 2019, 09:12:PM
Sheila  WASN'T violent.

Colin said she was at times.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 21, 2019, 09:25:PM
Sheila  WASN'T violent.





And you'd know ?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 21, 2019, 10:40:PM
no I meant Jeremy knew Shelia as much as colin

He didn’t even know her married name.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 22, 2019, 08:55:AM




And you'd know ?

I know what constitutes violence, physical, verbal, and psychological. What Sheila did to Colin was about cause and effect. Colin admitting to being the cause and therefore becoming the recipient of the effect.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 22, 2019, 10:28:AM
I know what constitutes violence, physical, verbal, and psychological. What Sheila did to Colin was about cause and effect. Colin admitting to being the cause and therefore becoming the recipient of the effect.





Those who are innocent always blame themselves such as Colin blamed himself. I thought you'd know that ? Where there are cases of domestic abuse and the wife/partner gets a battering they always tend to blame themselves for being the cause.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 22, 2019, 12:09:PM




Those who are innocent always blame themselves such as Colin blamed himself. I thought you'd know that ? Where there are cases of domestic abuse and the wife/partner gets a battering they always tend to blame themselves for being the cause.


Oh! So not content with previously defiling her as a promiscuous drug taker, you now label her as a husband beater and Colin as a liar - according to Colin,she hit him once after he'd hit her. Apart from that, she threw things. As for the innocent blaming themselves, I don't recall Jeremy descending into paroxysms of grief for leaving a loaded rifle out in full view of the mentally ill sister he'd already accused of violence towards her children.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 22, 2019, 02:38:PM

Oh! So not content with previously defiling her as a promiscuous drug taker, you now label her as a husband beater and Colin as a liar - according to Colin,she hit him once after he'd hit her. Apart from that, she threw things. As for the innocent blaming themselves, I don't recall Jeremy descending into paroxysms of grief for leaving a loaded rifle out in full view of the mentally ill sister he'd already accused of violence towards her children.




So he left out a loaded rifle ? It all depends what you read into that and by your views it's obvious isn't it ?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 22, 2019, 02:53:PM



So he left out a loaded rifle ? It all depends what you read into that and by your views it's obvious isn't it ?


But you have no proof that she was ANY of the things you ascribe to her. All that comes over is you wishing it on her and your willingness for it to be so.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 22, 2019, 03:41:PM

But you have no proof that she was ANY of the things you ascribe to her. All that comes over is you wishing it on her and your willingness for it to be so.




Your bait doesn't work with me any longer I'm afraid. It's not me wishing anything on anyone, least of all Sheila. It was Colin's words which described the fact that she could be violent as afterall he was the one who lived with her.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 22, 2019, 04:20:PM



Your bait doesn't work with me any longer I'm afraid. It's not me wishing anything on anyone, least of all Sheila. It was Colin's words which described the fact that she could be violent as afterall he was the one who lived with her.


Oh, but you certainly write as if it is. You're taking Colin's words to the absolute extreme of the spectrum and distorting them out of existence. I note that he doesn't say she WAS violent, only that she could be, which can mean anything -or everything, which is clearly what you want. Another point worth looking at is IF Colin truly believed she WAS violent, do you believe, for a moment, he'd have allowed her to have the boys. Colin was probably the only one to ever see her that angry, because he's probably -because she loved him- the only one who could get to her in that way. Their marriage sounds as if it had become a war of attrition.

I'm not trying to bait, Lookout. I'm simply picking up on what you say. I believe, in order to see Jeremy freed, you distort beyond recognition, the characters of both him and Sheila. You haven't done too bad a job on some of the relatives, either.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 22, 2019, 04:50:PM

Oh, but you certainly write as if it is. You're taking Colin's words to the absolute extreme of the spectrum and distorting them out of existence. I note that he doesn't say she WAS violent, only that she could be, which can mean anything -or everything, which is clearly what you want. Another point worth looking at is IF Colin truly believed she WAS violent, do you believe, for a moment, he'd have allowed her to have the boys. Colin was probably the only one to ever see her that angry, because he's probably -because she loved him- the only one who could get to her in that way. Their marriage sounds as if it had become a war of attrition.

I'm not trying to bait, Lookout. I'm simply picking up on what you say. I believe, in order to see Jeremy freed, you distort beyond recognition, the characters of both him and Sheila. You haven't done too bad a job on some of the relatives, either.




But " could be " doesn't exactly mean wasn't does it ? Once upon a time you'd described her as being so along with many other contradictions that form your posts now. How can you say one minute that she was unpredictable then in the next breath she wasn't and was perfectly normal, that it's others perceptions of her that are wrong.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Steve_uk on November 22, 2019, 05:07:PM
We don't really know what he meant by violent.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 22, 2019, 05:18:PM



So he left out a loaded rifle ? It all depends what you read into that and by your views it's obvious isn't it ?

Actually, she SAID he left a loaded magazine - but why? It certainly wasn't to shoot rabbits. The five extra bullets are testimony to that. The magazine/rifle MUST have had 5 shells already loaded and he was 'in a hurry'.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 22, 2019, 05:19:PM



But " could be " doesn't exactly mean wasn't does it ? Once upon a time you'd described her as being so along with many other contradictions that form your posts now. How can you say one minute that she was unpredictable then in the next breath she wasn't and was perfectly normal, that it's others perceptions of her that are wrong.

Yes I did. I can only say, now, and it's a very poor excuse and something I'm not proud of, that back when I wanted Jeremy to be innocent, I wanted Sheila to be guilty. It would have been so MUCH easier to forgive her.  I wholly believe that my perceptions of her, back then, were entirely wrong. Like Ferguson's belief that "she COULD have moved..............." it wasn't a categorical claim that she did.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 22, 2019, 05:23:PM
We don't really know what he meant by violent.


No, we don't, Steve. He doesn't specify on a scale of 1-10. However, as she was joint caregiver, I'd adjudge it to be down at the lower end.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 22, 2019, 05:26:PM
We don't really know what he meant by violent.

He made a video saying she wasn't violent.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 22, 2019, 05:32:PM
He made a video saying she wasn't violent.

https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/video/minimal-entry-intvw-colin-caffell-sheils-ex-husband-news-footage/1131154280?adppopup=true
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 22, 2019, 06:00:PM
Easy saying anything after the event. Barbara Wilson did the same thing.

Whose was the toy gun at WHF, Nevill's ?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 22, 2019, 06:02:PM
A bit different when he spoke to the cop on the doorstep, isn't it ? " So she's done it ?" Who was Colin talking about then to have asked such a question if he'd never thought she was violent ?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 22, 2019, 06:05:PM
Easy saying anything after the event. Barbara Wilson did the same thing.

Whose was the toy gun at WHF, Nevill's ?


What, exactly, do you believe should have been said prior?

Have you ever known grandparents to stick to ALL the rules, laid down for children, by the parents?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 22, 2019, 06:21:PM

What, exactly, do you believe should have been said prior?

Have you ever known grandparents to stick to ALL the rules, laid down for children, by the parents?




What should he have said ? Exactly what he wrote to Nevill in " the letter " !

A lot of grandparents abide by the rules of the parents for peace's sake if you haven't noticed.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Steve_uk on November 22, 2019, 06:25:PM
A bit different when he spoke to the cop on the doorstep, isn't it ? " So she's done it ?" Who was Colin talking about then to have asked such a question if he'd never thought she was violent ?
"It was just after midday on Wednesday 7 August 1985, that I went to answer an unexpected ring on the doorbell-I was about to make lunch for myself. At the door were two young policewomen.

"Mr Colin Caffell?"
"Yes."
"Do you know Sheila Caffell?"
"Yes, she's my ex-wife. What's wrong?"
"I'm afraid we have to tell you that she's dead."
Those words caught me completely off guard.
"Oh no, then she finally did it!" I said, almost thinking out loud.




"
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 22, 2019, 06:37:PM
A bit different when he spoke to the cop on the doorstep, isn't it ? " So she's done it ?" Who was Colin talking about then to have asked such a question if he'd never thought she was violent ?

He was referring to Sheila, at the time he didn't know the twins were dead.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 22, 2019, 06:39:PM



What should he have said ? Exactly what he wrote to Nevill in " the letter " !

A lot of grandparents abide by the rules of the parents for peace's sake if you haven't noticed.


It seems the boys weren't frequent visitors to the farm. It seems perfectly natural, to me, for grandparents to want to give children, what they consider to be, an occasional treat. Who's to say it wasn't a water pistol? Most little boys like nothing more.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 22, 2019, 06:42:PM

It seems the boys weren't frequent visitors to the farm. It seems perfectly natural, to me, for grandparents to want to give children, what they consider to be, an occasional treat. Who's to say it wasn't a water pistol? Most little boys like nothing more.





Water pistol, toy gun----they both point in a threatening way. Sheila would have been aware of it  !
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 22, 2019, 06:46:PM




Water pistol, toy gun----they both point in a threatening way. Sheila would have been aware of it  !


Whatever, Lookout ::) It was there and I'll bet they had fun pointing it at each other, especially if it squirted. I somehow can't see Sheila standing up to her parents regarding it. She was only supposed to be staying there four nights.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 22, 2019, 06:54:PM
Easy saying anything after the event. Barbara Wilson did the same thing.

Whose was the toy gun at WHF, Nevill's ?

He said SHEILA didn't like them having guns, but they weren't living with her so they didn't get it from her house. I knew you would grab onto that!  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Steve_uk on November 22, 2019, 06:57:PM
What a state we are in when the boys of my generation played cowboys and Indians with silver steel toy guns discharging a loud bang with caps and none of us thought anything of it as it was just one more activity in playing out at all hours before dusk fell and we were sent into the bathtub. Now middle- class children are glued to the internet at all hours, no regular set mealtimes and no physical exercise as they are bussed to and from school like the pampered pets they have become.

Of course it's quite disastrous now in the working-class inner city areas with the prevalence of knives amongst juveniles, youth who have little in common with the country of their birth as teachers attempt to arouse interest in William the Conqueror and later Gladstone's First Ministry, whilst this minority of feral youth slash their foes with the blade they have bought online and their older brothers go for richer pickings in the control of central nervous system stimulants which have had such a detrimental effect to society: Jeremy Bamber, the Chillenden murders, Alesha MacPhail to name but three.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 22, 2019, 06:58:PM

Oh, but you certainly write as if it is. You're taking Colin's words to the absolute extreme of the spectrum and distorting them out of existence. I note that he doesn't say she WAS violent, only that she could be, which can mean anything -or everything, which is clearly what you want. Another point worth looking at is IF Colin truly believed she WAS violent, do you believe, for a moment, he'd have allowed her to have the boys. Colin was probably the only one to ever see her that angry, because he's probably -because she loved him- the only one who could get to her in that way. Their marriage sounds as if it had become a war of attrition.

I'm not trying to bait, Lookout. I'm simply picking up on what you say. I believe, in order to see Jeremy freed, you distort beyond recognition, the characters of both him and Sheila. You haven't done too bad a job on some of the relatives, either.

He said:

"She would also be violent towards me ..."

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1560.msg47922.html#msg47922

Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Steve_uk on November 22, 2019, 07:00:PM
He said:

"She would also be violent towards me ..."

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1560.msg47922.html#msg47922
That was years before the murders.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 22, 2019, 07:05:PM
He said:

"She would also be violent towards me ..."

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1560.msg47922.html#msg47922

.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 22, 2019, 07:09:PM
That was years before the murders.


He's speaking about when they were living together which was almost 7 years prior. He doesn't say she was violent for no reason, just that it was during arguments. Nor does he claim she did more to him than throw things/destroy his possessions. It seems that when it came to any physicality, it was herself she hurt.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Steve_uk on November 22, 2019, 07:28:PM

He's speaking about when they were living together which was almost 7 years prior. He doesn't say she was violent for no reason, just that it was during arguments. Nor does he claim she did more to him than throw things/destroy his possessions. It seems that when it came to any physicality, it was herself she hurt.
She was looking for a strong, successful paterfamilias Nevill figure, when she realized that for a time Colin was an insecure, unemployed potter. But what an achievement the twins were, a credit to both of them, nurturing, sensitive, caring towards others. What a terrible tragedy her illness, which led to the crimes and the destruction of so many lives.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 22, 2019, 07:30:PM
He said she would be violent towards him - that means towards his person. That might have been several years before the shootings, but let's not pretend he didn't say that.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 22, 2019, 07:30:PM
So it's alright to destroy someone's cherished possessions ?

Where's the legal heading on those scraps of " projections ?"
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 22, 2019, 07:41:PM
She was looking for a strong, successful paterfamilias Nevill figure, when she realized that for a time Colin was an insecure, unemployed potter. But what an achievement the twins were, a credit to both of them, nurturing, sensitive, caring towards others. What a terrible tragedy her illness, which led to the crimes and the destruction of so many lives.


They were indeed. Even more so considering the number of difficult and failed pregnancies she'd endured.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 22, 2019, 09:49:PM
Talking about violence for a moment, is there a references instance of Jeremy showing violent tendicies compared to Shelia pre massacre?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 22, 2019, 09:58:PM
No report of Jeremy having been violent.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 22, 2019, 10:13:PM
No report of Jeremy having been violent.

Not sure why people believe that's relevant either? Killing the family was a means to an end.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 22, 2019, 10:17:PM
Not sure why people believe that's relevant either? Killing the family was a means to an end.
jeremy had never showed violent tendicies Shelia had....
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 22, 2019, 10:28:PM
jeremy had never showed violent tendicies Shelia had....

And? Not all killers show violence outside of the murders they commit.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 22, 2019, 10:33:PM
And? Not all killers show violence outside of the murders they commit.
Shelia had mental health problems didn't she ? Hated June, couldn't BARE the thought of idea of the twins getting fostered....
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 22, 2019, 10:34:PM
Sure, shooting them could have been a means to an end, but shooting them in that manner? That was pretty violent.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 22, 2019, 10:34:PM
Shelia had mental health problems didn't she ? Hated June, couldn't BARE the thought of idea of the twins getting fostered....

He condition was being medicated, Jeremy hated June and the twins weren't getting fostered.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 22, 2019, 10:35:PM
Sure, shooting them could have been a means to an end, but shooting them in that manner? That was pretty violent.

Because he wanted to make it look like his 'crazy' sister was responsible,
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 22, 2019, 10:37:PM
He condition was being medicated, Jeremy hated June and the twins weren't getting fostered.
she was Ill wasn't she, jeremy was fine wasn't he? Driving an Astra, earning money, only Julie's word to say otherwise??
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 22, 2019, 10:39:PM
Dorothy Bencher (Colin's mother) spoke to June a few mo nthsbefore the murders, and she said that June was worried that the boys would have to be fostered. June was against this, but had apparently forgotten that the twins had a father. So fostering was an issue which was raised, and it's possible that Jeremy misunderstood what was being said.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 22, 2019, 10:41:PM
Because he wanted to make it look like his 'crazy' sister was responsible,

One can be "crazy" without using 25 bullets, leaving their mother severely injured, go back to finish her off, beat up one's father and then shoot him four more times. I would say that it takes a pretty violent person to do that.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 22, 2019, 10:41:PM
she was Ill wasn't she, jeremy was fine wasn't he? Driving an Astra, earning money, only Julie's word to say otherwise??

And other people who you have dismissed by claiming they didn't know him - well, they knew him better than you. You have defended Jeremy throughout your time here but I have yet to see you post on how you think things happened?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 22, 2019, 10:42:PM
Dorothy Bencher (Colin's mother) spoke to June a few mo nthsbefore the murders, and she said that June was worried that the boys would have to be fostered. June was against this, but had apparently forgotten that the twins had a father. So fostering was an issue which was raised, and it's possible that Jeremy misunderstood what was being said.

Jeremy could easily have overheard June talking about it at any time. But it was clearly June's concern, not Sheila's.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 22, 2019, 10:44:PM
And other people who you have dismissed by claiming they didn't know him - well, they knew him better than you. You have defended Jeremy throughout your time here but I have yet to see you post on how you think things happened?
how can you comment on the relationship between myself and Bamber?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 22, 2019, 10:45:PM
Jeremy could easily have overheard June talking about it at any time. But it was clearly June's concern, not Sheila's.

And?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 22, 2019, 10:50:PM
One can be "crazy" without using 25 bullets, leaving their mother severely injured, go back to finish her off, beat up one's father and then shoot him four more times. I would say that it takes a pretty violent person to do that.




And it takes someone insane to murder their children !!
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 22, 2019, 10:56:PM



And it takes someone insane to murder their children !!

Or a psychopath hell bent on getting his inheritance early!
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 23, 2019, 10:42:AM
He condition was being medicated, Jeremy hated June and the twins weren't getting fostered.




Sheila hated her too and what about Colin's remark that he'd have killed her himself ??
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 23, 2019, 10:43:AM



Sheila hated her too and what about Colin's remark that he'd have killed her himself ??




Which he wrote in his book. He'd blamed June for Sheila's state of health and he didn't want his boys going the same way.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 23, 2019, 11:26:AM
He didn’t even know her married name.
strange seeing as though he was at the 1977 event.....
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: David1819 on November 23, 2019, 12:42:PM

Which he wrote in his book. He'd blamed June for Sheila's state of health and he didn't want his boys going the same way.

I’ve come to the conclusion that Colin only believe’s Jeremy is guilty because it absolves him from any feelings of responsibility. The idea that he could have possibly prevented or exasperated the events surrounding and leading to the death of his children all go out the window if you blame Jeremy.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 23, 2019, 01:30:PM
I strongly believe Colin deep down. Believes Jeremy to be innocent.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: David1819 on November 23, 2019, 01:46:PM
I strongly believe Colin deep down. Believes Jeremy to be innocent.

Same
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Adam on November 23, 2019, 01:51:PM
And other people who you have dismissed by claiming they didn't know him - well, they knew him better than you. You have defended Jeremy throughout your time here but I have yet to see you post on how you think things happened?

The last poster who gave a Sheila scenario was 'Luminous Wanderer'. Saying Nevill received his first 4 shots in the kitchen.

When I showed him a source that Nevill had received his first 4 shots in the bedroom, as well as his other errors, he was outraged & left the forum the following day!
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 23, 2019, 02:06:PM
The last poster who gave a Sheila scenario was 'Luminous Wanderer'. Saying Nevill received his first 4 shots in the kitchen.

When I showed him a source that Nevill had received his first 4 shots in the bedroom, as well as his other errors, he was outraged & left the forum the following day!

Delicate lot aren't they?  ;)
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 23, 2019, 02:09:PM
Same
just my opinion but I believe Jeremy had a strong respect for Colin and liked him ( and vice versa)
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 23, 2019, 02:11:PM
The last poster who gave a Sheila scenario was 'Luminous Wanderer'. Saying Nevill received his first 4 shots in the kitchen.

When I showed him a source that Nevill had received his first 4 shots in the bedroom, as well as his other errors, he was outraged & left the forum the following day!
a source is still an opinion son...
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on November 23, 2019, 02:25:PM
Delicate lot aren't they?  ;)

One person - not "they".
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 23, 2019, 03:46:PM
I’ve come to the conclusion that Colin only believe’s Jeremy is guilty because it absolves him from any feelings of responsibility. The idea that he could have possibly prevented or exasperated the events surrounding and leading to the death of his children all go out the window if you blame Jeremy.





He certainly could have done a lot more.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 23, 2019, 03:50:PM
I strongly believe Colin deep down. Believes Jeremy to be innocent.





Me too, as does Julie. That's why she cried too much and couldn't speak when the defence questioned her.
A person under questioning will cry, be it man or woman when knowingly lying. It never fails !
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 23, 2019, 05:45:PM




Me too, as does Julie. That's why she cried too much and couldn't speak when the defence questioned her.
A person under questioning will cry, be it man or woman when knowingly lying. It never fails !

Colin doesn't believe Jeremy is innocent and Julie KNOWS he isn't. Colin started to have second thoughts about Jeremy when he bagged up the twins belongings in bin liners like it was trash and then tried to sell explicit pictures of Sheila to The Sun. Sometimes this place is just unbelievable!
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 23, 2019, 05:52:PM
Colin doesn't believe Jeremy is innocent and Julie KNOWS he isn't. Colin started to have second thoughts about Jeremy when he bagged up the twins belongings in bin liners like it was trash and then tried to sell explicit pictures of Sheila to The Sun. Sometimes this place is just unbelievable!


Didn't he hedge about allowing Colin to have the pictures?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 23, 2019, 06:01:PM

Didn't he hedge about allowing Colin to have the pictures?

He said he gave him some but kept the explicit pics to sell.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on November 23, 2019, 06:05:PM
He said he gave him some but kept the explicit pics to sell.


I don't know -I can't imagine- from where comes the theory that Colin thinks Jeremy is innocent. However, he does make it fairly clear that he thinks the brotherly support was an act.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 23, 2019, 06:14:PM

I don't know -I can't imagine- from where comes the theory that Colin thinks Jeremy is innocent. However, he does make it fairly clear that he thinks the brotherly support was an act.

Wishful thinking! God knows why though.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 23, 2019, 06:23:PM
The above scenarios confirms " the women should not leave the kitchen debacle"
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 23, 2019, 06:54:PM
The above scenarios confirms " the women should not leave the kitchen debacle"

And where is your scenario?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 23, 2019, 07:24:PM
And where is your scenario?
gas mark three please
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 23, 2019, 07:28:PM
gas mark three please

So you don't have one  ::) - thought not! With the amount of gas you're giving off - you don't need a cooker! B
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 23, 2019, 07:35:PM
So you don't have one  ::) - thought not! With the amount of gas you're giving off - you don't need a cooker! B
Jeremy is Innocent
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 23, 2019, 07:37:PM
Jeremy is Innocent

No - he's guilty. I have made you your own thread. See ya!
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 23, 2019, 07:41:PM
No - he's guilty. I have made you your own thread. See ya!
his conviction is going to be overturned .....
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 23, 2019, 07:44:PM
his conviction is going to be overturned .....

No - it really isn't!
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Steve_uk on November 24, 2019, 07:51:PM
I’ve come to the conclusion that Colin only believe’s Jeremy is guilty because it absolves him from any feelings of responsibility. The idea that he could have possibly prevented or exasperated the events surrounding and leading to the death of his children all go out the window if you blame Jeremy.
I think you mean exacerbated not exasperated. Colin is certain of his ex-brother-in law's guilt and has moved on in a way I'm not sure I could have faced with a similar tragedy.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 24, 2019, 11:58:PM
I think you mean exacerbated not exasperated. Colin is certain of his ex-brother-in law's guilt and has moved on in a way I'm not sure I could have faced with a similar tragedy.

He is certain and he has indeed!
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 25, 2019, 11:45:AM
I'd like to know where all the hard evidence is that nailed him.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 25, 2019, 01:18:PM
I'd like to know where all the hard evidence is that nailed him.

Really?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 25, 2019, 02:09:PM
Really?





Yes, really.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 25, 2019, 03:02:PM




Yes, really.

I guess you just need to read the forum then.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Reader on November 26, 2019, 09:52:AM
No - he's guilty.
Nobody of that opinion has duplicated or given a plausible detailed explanation of the "trick of the light" incident. For example, a window might reflect a cloud, but it's implausible that such a reflection would be mistakenly interpreted as a person, or the silhouette of a person, moving in the room having that window.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 26, 2019, 01:14:PM
Nobody of that opinion has duplicated or given a plausible detailed explanation of the "trick of the light" incident. For example, a window might reflect a cloud, but it's implausible that such a reflection would be mistakenly interpreted as a person, or the silhouette of a person, moving in the room having that window.

Wrote to Jeremy for a few years - he never mentioned seeing any persons silhouette. It was simply, a trick of the light. Had Sheila been alive, when she shot herself, the shots would have been heard - the window was open.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Reader on November 26, 2019, 06:57:PM
. . . he never mentioned seeing any person's silhouette. It was simply, a trick of the light.
What Jeremy didn't mention is irrelevant unless you state exactly what you had asked him. Also, "a trick of the light" is your phrase (originally, Rivlin's), not Jeremy's. The fact remains that no such trick of the light has been replicated, making it an implausible explanation.

Also, nobody has described precisely what the "trick of the light" looked like. Long after the trial, Ps Bews said that Pc Myall had said "Stop, I think I saw someone move." and when asked "Where?" replied "That window up there." etc. However, Ps Bews had reportedly described what happened differently during the trial, saying "As we moved away, I thought we saw something else move, a shadow, something like that." Hence we don't have any reliable account of who first saw something or what it looked like. We don't even know for sure which window was being referred to or where exactly it was viewed from.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 26, 2019, 07:35:PM
What Jeremy didn't mention is irrelevant unless you state exactly what you had asked him. Also, "a trick of the light" is your phrase (originally, Rivlin's), not Jeremy's. The fact remains that no such trick of the light has been replicated, making it an implausible explanation.

Also, nobody has described precisely what the "trick of the light" looked like. Long after the trial, Ps Bews said that Pc Myall had said "Stop, I think I saw someone move." and when asked "Where?" replied "That window up there." etc. However, Ps Bews had reportedly described what happened differently during the trial, saying "As we moved away, I thought we saw something else move, a shadow, something like that." Hence we don't have any reliable account of who first saw something or what it looked like. We don't even know for sure which window was being referred to or where exactly it was viewed from.

So what's Jeremy's phrase? However, I think it's VERY relevant, if I had been convicted of murder, I would never stop talking about seeing someone at the window and yet he never mentions it.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 26, 2019, 07:50:PM
" firearms team are in conversation with someone in Whf," pretty clear for a supposed " cock up" you are either conversation or you aren't. It's not a scenario where you might forget as in trying to remember what someone is wearing..
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Steve_uk on November 26, 2019, 08:04:PM
" firearms team are in conversation with someone in Whf," pretty clear for a supposed " cock up" you are either conversation or you aren't. It's not a scenario where you might forget as in trying to remember what someone is wearing..
Yes but you missed out the next sentence, that the challenge met with no response.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 26, 2019, 08:06:PM
Yes but you missed out the next sentence, that the challenge met with no response.
conversation means one person to another.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Steve_uk on November 26, 2019, 08:07:PM
conversation means one person to another.
It was somebody standing outside with a megaphone, addressing the charnel house which Jeremy had left..
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Adam on November 26, 2019, 08:23:PM
Wrote to Jeremy for a few years - he never mentioned seeing any persons silhouette. It was simply, a trick of the light. Had Sheila been alive, when she shot herself, the shots would have been heard - the window was open.

The WHF phone line was also open. No shots were heard.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 26, 2019, 08:26:PM
" firearms team are in conversation with someone in Whf," pretty clear for a supposed " cock up" you are either conversation or you aren't. It's not a scenario where you might forget as in trying to remember what someone is wearing..

It actually say's "Firearms team are in conversion with a PERSON inside the FARM" - which was Jeremy!
Next line - "Challenge to PERSONS inside the HOUSE - met with NO RESPONSE".
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Adam on November 26, 2019, 08:31:PM
It actually say's "Firearms team are in conversion with a PERSON inside the FARM" - which was Jeremy!
Next line - "Challenge to PERSONS inside the HOUSE - met with NO RESPONSE".

Maybe Sheila was too busy writing her suicide note?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 26, 2019, 08:58:PM
Maybe Sheila was too busy writing her suicide note?

Which one?  ;)

The entries are different, one perfers to 'person' the other 'persons'. one refers to 'farm' and the other to 'house'.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Adam on November 26, 2019, 09:07:PM
Which one?  ;)

The entries are different, one perfers to 'person' the other 'persons'. one refers to 'farm' and the other to 'house'.

That is a good question. Maybe she was having her shower?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 26, 2019, 09:08:PM
That is a good question. Maybe she was having her shower?

Or an early morning snack.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Adam on November 26, 2019, 09:13:PM
Or an early morning snack.

Was that before or after reading the bible?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 26, 2019, 09:22:PM
It actually say's "Firearms team are in conversion with a PERSON inside the FARM" - which was Jeremy!
Next line - "Challenge to PERSONS inside the HOUSE - met with NO RESPONSE".
Jeremy was stood outside. Wasn't he.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 26, 2019, 09:23:PM
Maybe Sheila was too busy writing her suicide note?
we can all do errors but it never said " firearms team " called out" it states " was in conversation
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 26, 2019, 09:24:PM
It was somebody standing outside with a megaphone, addressing the charnel house which Jeremy had left..
it still doesn't mean " I shouted out and heard no response "
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 26, 2019, 09:30:PM
Jeremy was stood outside. Wasn't he.

Yes, the FARM is outside. The log differentiates between FARM and HOUSE and PERSON (singular) and PERSONS.

PERSON/FARM - Jeremy
PERSONS/ HOUSE - The family

Read the the raid teams statements, they talk about 'being in conversation ......... with JEREMY!
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 26, 2019, 09:32:PM
we can all do errors but it never said " firearms team " called out" it states " was in conversation

They were in conversation - with JEREMY
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 26, 2019, 09:34:PM
They were in conversation - with JEREMY
1 dead male 1 dead female in KITCHEN"" I know our eyes can play tricks
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 26, 2019, 09:36:PM
They were in conversation - with JEREMY
" in farm " means INSIDE farm "not in farm grounds" or " outside PERIMETER," I know I have to be careful, as I will get a 24 hour ban for having an opinion that differs to yours...but it has to be said
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 26, 2019, 09:38:PM
" in farm " does not mean " in farm grounds" or " outside PERIMETER," I know I have to be careful, as I will get a 24 hour ban for having an opinion that differs to yours...but it has to be said

You got banned because of your attitude, not your opinion. However, what I have written isn't my opinion, it's in the logs and statements - don't blame others because you choose to interpret it incorrectly.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 26, 2019, 09:43:PM
You got banned because of your attitude, not your opinion. However, what I have written isn't my opinion, it's in the logs and statements - don't blame others because you choose to interpret it incorrectly.
I'm literally speechless. HOW ELSE CAN YOU INTERPRET IT.....
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 26, 2019, 09:47:PM
I'm literally speechless. HOW ELSE CAN YOU INTERPRET IT.....

The log states that at 05.25 "Firearms team are in conversion with a PERSON inside the FARM" then at 05:29 "Challenge to PERSONS inside the HOUSE - met with NO RESPONSE"

How can they be having a conversation with anyone from the farmhouse when their challenge was met with no response? Members of the raid team clearly state that they were IN CONVERSATION with Jeremy before the challenge to the house. Read the statements!
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 26, 2019, 09:47:PM
The funny thing is. I'm not even an ardent supporter of Bambers innocence  ;D ;D
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 26, 2019, 09:52:PM
The funny thing is. I'm not even an ardent supporter of Bambers innocence  ;D ;D

So you keep saying.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 26, 2019, 10:09:PM
The log states that at 05.25 "Firearms team are in conversion with a PERSON inside the FARM" then at 05:29 "Challenge to PERSONS inside the HOUSE - met with NO RESPONSE"

How can they be having a conversation with anyone from the farmhouse when their challenge was met with no response? Members of the raid team clearly state that they were IN CONVERSATION with Jeremy before the challenge to the house. Read the statements!
I have read it. It doesn't state at 5.25 " we called out and heard no response " it states "WE ARE IN CONVERSATION" dress it how you might, it indicates what it states....
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 26, 2019, 10:12:PM
" one dead FEMALE" in kitchen....
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 26, 2019, 10:16:PM
" one dead FEMALE" in kitchen....

Already explained.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 26, 2019, 11:11:PM
Already explained.
how is it? Take the blinkers off . I don't want to get banned so I will try to agree with you...
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: maggie on November 26, 2019, 11:46:PM
how is it? Take the blinkers off . I don't want to get banned so I will try to agree with you...
You don’t have to agree with anyone if you have a different opinion but we do expect you and all posters to show respect to all members.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 27, 2019, 12:27:AM
how is it? Take the blinkers off . I don't want to get banned so I will try to agree with you...

Read the forum.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Reader on November 27, 2019, 01:34:AM
So what's Jeremy's phrase? However, I think it's VERY relevant, if I had been convicted of murder, I would never stop talking about seeing someone at the window and yet he never mentions it.
There's no value in going on about it while it's just his word against that of Ps Bews. Anyway, it's not clear whether Jeremy saw movement or just looked up at the window where one of the police officers had said they saw something move.

It actually say's "Firearms team are in conversion with a PERSON inside the FARM" - which was Jeremy!
Next line - "Challenge to PERSONS inside the HOUSE - met with NO RESPONSE".
That's incorrect. The 0525 line has "Firearms team are in conversation with a person from inside the farm." and the next line has "Challenge to persons inside house met with no response". Is that where the log ends? Nobody seems to know.

Where else is Jeremy referred to as "a person"?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 27, 2019, 02:38:AM
There's no value in going on about it while it's just his word against that of Ps Bews. Anyway, it's not clear whether Jeremy saw movement or just looked up at the window where one of the police officers had said they saw something move.
That's incorrect. The 0525 line has "Firearms team are in conversation with a person from inside the farm." and the next line has "Challenge to persons inside house met with no response". Is that where the log ends? Nobody seems to know.

Where else is Jeremy referred to as "a person"?

If there is no value going on about it, why did YOU bring it up?

What was incorrect about my quote?  you wrote the same thing as me! Your last comment is completely irrelevant - because the two comments on the log make a clear distinction between person and persons, farm and house. This is just more clinging onto little nuances within the logs.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 27, 2019, 07:46:PM
If there is no value going on about it, why did YOU bring it up?

What was incorrect about my quote?  you wrote the same thing as me! Your last comment is completely irrelevant - because the two comments on the log make a clear distinction between person and persons, farm and house. This is just more clinging onto little nuances within the logs.
did Jeremy enter the farmhouse prior to police. Keep in mind none of us were at whf 7 august 85...
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Steve_uk on November 27, 2019, 08:23:PM
did Jeremy enter the farmhouse prior to police. Keep in mind none of us were at whf 7 august 85...
Of course he didn't. He was seated in the back of a police vehicle bragging to PC Lay that he would be buying a £38000 Porsche later in the year, hours after he had killed his parents and splattered the brains of his twin nephews on the bedhead..
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 27, 2019, 09:41:PM
Of course he didn't. He was seated in the back of a police vehicle bragging to PC Lay that he would be buying a £38000 Porsche later in the year, hours after he had killed his parents and splattered the brains of his twin nephews on the bedhead..
so he wasn't in the farm. And he wasn't in conversation with officers outside the farm? Was he? You idiot
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 27, 2019, 09:46:PM
You don’t have to agree with anyone if you have a different opinion but we do expect you and all posters to show respect to all members.
and I Respect that , but she has insulted me as well. But she is a woman isnt she? So I do apologise
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 27, 2019, 10:00:PM
and I Respect that , but she has insulted me as well. But she is a woman isnt she? So I do apologise

Still trying to cause trouble I see. Thought you said you were able to hold a serious debate ....... when are you starting?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Steve_uk on November 27, 2019, 10:04:PM
so he wasn't in the farm. And he wasn't in conversation with officers outside the farm? Was he? You idiot
He was located within the confines of the Farm. Don't call me an idiot or shortage of new members here or not a ban will be on its way.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 27, 2019, 10:14:PM
so he wasn't in the farm. And he wasn't in conversation with officers outside the farm? Was he? You idiot

Why don't you read the statements instead of posting campaign team sound bites. Before the Raid Team approached and entered WHF, they were in conversation with Jeremy. He told them about the weapons in the house and the gun he left out. He told them about Sheila - when they decided to go in, Jeremy was taken to sit in the police car. Previous to that, he was 'inside' the farm.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 28, 2019, 09:54:PM
He wasn't inside literally then...
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 29, 2019, 01:51:AM
He wasn't inside literally then...

Inside the farm - yes he was, he wasn't inside the HOUSE!
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Adam on November 29, 2019, 11:11:AM
http://www.jeremybambertestimony.co.uk/eric-allison

Eric Allison believes Sheila was alive in the house.

Did the police really use a loud speaker for 2 hours?

Even if there was no response, it is still a good idea to get the firearms team to enter. Better safe than sorry.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 29, 2019, 07:17:PM
Inside the farm - yes he was, he wasn't inside the HOUSE!
we need to determine that though don't. Even if In the peremiter it would in my view still be described as " outside the farm"
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: David1819 on November 29, 2019, 07:51:PM
we need to determine that though don't. Even if In the peremiter it would in my view still be described as " outside the farm"

The guy writing this stuff down in the logs was not actually at the scene. He was noting down events as he heard them on the radio. Right under the event mentioning a conversation it was then written down that there was no response from the house. So that settles that.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on November 29, 2019, 08:13:PM
Outside the farm house is outside end of.  :)
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 29, 2019, 11:08:PM
Outside the farm house is outside end of.  :)

Wrong! By your understanding, you wouldn't be inside the grounds of Buckingham Palace because it's outside! Nor could you be inside a compound, because it's outside. Inside means with in the confines of something - like THE FARM!  ::)

Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: guest7363 on November 30, 2019, 07:13:AM
Wrong! By your understanding, you wouldn't be inside the grounds of Buckingham Palace because it's outside! Nor could you be inside a compound, because it's outside. Inside means with in the confines of something - like THE FARM!  ::)
Theres even a children’s book about it Caroline

https://usborne.com/browse-books/catalogue/product/1/8843/peep-inside-the-farm/
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Adam on November 30, 2019, 08:55:AM
How would Sheila be in conversation with police outside the house. Shouting through the letter box?

Another non starter.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 30, 2019, 10:30:AM
How would Sheila be in conversation with police outside the house. Shouting through the letter box?

Another non starter.




She could have been. We don't know do we ?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: David1819 on November 30, 2019, 12:04:PM
Outside the farm house is outside end of.  :)

Yes, outside is very much outside.  :)
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 30, 2019, 12:40:PM
The truth is that nobody was inside at that point, especially using a megaphone---why would you be ?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 30, 2019, 12:58:PM
Theres even a children’s book about it Caroline

https://usborne.com/browse-books/catalogue/product/1/8843/peep-inside-the-farm/

Thanks Justice  ;) ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 30, 2019, 01:02:PM
The truth is that nobody was inside at that point, especially using a megaphone---why would you be ?

INSIDE the FARM - not the FARM HOUSE! There is a clear distinction being made between farm and house. Fool yourselves over this if you like - but that's all you're doing. Read the log again! I didn't see it initially either, but when you do, it makes the 'in conversation' claim, ridiculous!
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on November 30, 2019, 01:23:PM
A clearer definition of being inside the farm==an area which includes various structures/buildings.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on November 30, 2019, 06:59:PM
A clearer definition of being inside the farm==an area which includes various structures/buildings.

Thanks you Lookout - exactly!
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on December 01, 2019, 09:06:PM
Why don't you read the statements instead of posting campaign team sound bites. Before the Raid Team approached and entered WHF, they were in conversation with Jeremy. He told them about the weapons in the house and the gun he left out. He told them about Sheila - when they decided to go in, Jeremy was taken to sit in the police car. Previous to that, he was 'inside' the farm.
I'm not in contact with the CT as I've said
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on December 01, 2019, 09:07:PM
Thanks you Lookout - exactly!
means fuck all though, this wasn't a surveyor. It's the police, 'outside is outside....
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on December 01, 2019, 09:08:PM
You can't argue wording that points to Jeremy's guilt if your not prepared to accept it could mean his innocence...
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on December 02, 2019, 12:03:AM
means fuck all though, this wasn't a surveyor. It's the police, 'outside is outside....

You need to mind your language and your attitude - don't think you can bulldoze over people with the excuse that you're from YORKSHIRE! Plain speaking doesn't mean you need to be a PRICK!

Is this you?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jY4tD2Hbg_A
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Steve_uk on December 02, 2019, 08:12:PM
Caroline I think it's time for a warning, a suspension or a ban.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: David1819 on December 02, 2019, 10:21:PM
Caroline I think it's time for a warning, a suspension or a ban.

What’s he done wrong?  ???
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on December 02, 2019, 10:25:PM
What’s he done wrong?  ???

If you missed it, you missed it. It's all been removed.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: guest7363 on December 04, 2019, 06:48:PM
I’ve always had a problem with the positioning of Sheila’s body, the two shells one either side and the two shots to Sheila. There are far too many coincidences for me on the lead up to the murder, the rabbit story, the sights missing, the cycle and the twins being there to name but a few.

She managed to reload the chambers and magazines with long finger nails and leave no trace of lead on her.  She didn’t fumble or drop any live shells, she knew she had to kill at close quarters and not distance, anyone who had no knowledge would have shot at distance, she never once missed her target once? I’ve also learned that to make the semi weapon ready to fire takes practice and can be cumbersome to a novice.  Firing live rounds into human beings at close range takes composure and someone utterly ruthless.

Then she shoots herself twice, not even in the twins bedroom like Colin pointed out and insisted that’s where he thought she would have done.  Miraculously she had accounted the number of rounds correctly and leaves the chamber empty

To me it had to be someone who was . fit, agile, coordinated, sufficiently practised, calm, calculating, knowledgeable and utterly ruthless.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on December 04, 2019, 06:56:PM
I’ve always had a problem with the positioning of Sheila’s body, the two shells one either side and the two shots to Sheila. There are far too many coincidences for me on the lead up to the murder, the rabbit story, the sights missing, the cycle and the twins being there to name but a few.

She managed to reload the chambers and magazines with long finger nails and leave no trace of lead on her.  She didn’t fumble or drop any live shells, she knew she had to kill at close quarters and not distance, anyone who had no knowledge would have shot at distance, she never once missed her target once? I’ve also learned that to make the semi weapon ready to fire takes practice and can be cumbersome to a novice.  Firing live rounds into human beings at close range takes composure and someone utterly ruthless.

Then she shoots herself twice, not even in the twins bedroom like Colin pointed out and insisted that’s where he thought she would have done.  Miraculously she had accounted the number of rounds correctly and leaves the chamber empty

To me it had to be someone who was . fit, agile, coordinated, sufficiently practised, calm, calculating, knowledgeable and utterly ruthless.

Great post and completely agree Justice! Too may coincidences as you say and also the fact that the rifle couldn't have been empty, given the 5 extra rounds found on the counter top.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: David1819 on December 04, 2019, 07:06:PM
She managed to reload the chambers and magazines with long finger nails and leave no trace of lead on her. 

There was traces of lead and copper on her palms.

She didn’t fumble or drop any live shells

How do you know?

she knew she had to kill at close quarters and not distance, anyone who had no knowledge would have shot at distance, she never once missed her target once?

You have no option but to kill at close quarters if the people you shoot at are inside a residential building.

I’ve also learned that to make the semi weapon ready to fire takes practice and can be cumbersome to a novice.

How have you learned this?

I have loaded and used a Lee–Enfield .303 that was cumbersome. I cannot imagine the rifle in question being the same experiance.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: guest7363 on December 04, 2019, 07:08:PM
Great post and completely agree Justice! Too may coincidences as you say and also the fact that the rifle couldn't have been empty, given the 5 extra rounds found on the counter top.
Wonder how many more novice female gun Mass  murders there’s been in this country?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: guest7363 on December 04, 2019, 07:11:PM
Wonder how many more novice female gun Mass  murders there’s been in this country?
Ha Ha David will be googling now I bet 😂😂😂
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on December 04, 2019, 07:12:PM
Ha Ha David will be googling now I bet 😂😂😂

I'd hazard a guess at none  ;)
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: guest7363 on December 04, 2019, 07:21:PM
There was traces of lead and copper on her palms.

How do you know?

You have no option but to kill at close quarters if the people you shoot at are inside a residential building.

How have you learned this?

I have loaded and used a Lee–Enfield .303 that was cumbersome. I cannot imagine the rifle in question being the same experiance.
Is anyone else experiencing the error still?  I’ve just answered your questions and they haven’t come up?  I’m still getting service unavailable Caroline are you?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on December 04, 2019, 07:32:PM
Is anyone else experiencing the error still?  I’ve just answered your questions and they haven’t come up?  I’m still getting service unavailable Caroline are you?

Yes, still getting the error - it's a server end error so nothing I can do. It's in the hands of the host at the moment, they're 'supposed' to be investigating.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: guest7363 on December 04, 2019, 07:33:PM
Yes, still getting the error - it's a server end error so nothing I can do. It's in the hands of the host at the moment, they're 'supposed' to be investigating.
Ok Caroline thanks
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: David1819 on December 04, 2019, 07:39:PM
Ha Ha David will be googling now I bet 😂😂😂

I've already pointed out the case of Sylvia Seegrist enough times.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: guest7363 on December 04, 2019, 07:45:PM
I've already pointed out the case of Sylvia Seegrist enough times.
I did say in this Country David?  USA is different a big gun population compared to this country.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on December 04, 2019, 07:57:PM
I've already pointed out the case of Sylvia Seegrist enough times.

Sylvia wasn't taking her medication and once it was restored, her behaviour stabilised. She also fired 15 rounds and missed 5 times. I can't find anything to say she was a novice with a gun?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: guest7363 on December 04, 2019, 08:00:PM
Sylvia wasn't taking her medication and once it was restored, her behaviour stabilised. She also fired 15 rounds and missed 5 times. I can't find anything to say she was a novice with a gun?
Wasnt she in the army for two months?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on December 04, 2019, 09:01:PM
Wasnt she in the army for two months?

Yes, and she had the rifle for 7 months before the shootings. Plenty of time to practice.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: guest7363 on December 05, 2019, 09:23:AM
Great post and completely agree Justice! Too may coincidences as you say and also the fact that the rifle couldn't have been empty, given the 5 extra rounds found on the counter top.
How convenient she left two bullets in the chamber when she took her own life, did she know the first wouldn’t kill her?  How convenient she never aimed one shot at distance, always in close combat to kill never missing once.  How convenient the sights had been removed yet it was a gun used to shoot vermin
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on December 05, 2019, 01:28:PM
How convenient she left two bullets in the chamber when she took her own life, did she know the first wouldn’t kill her?  How convenient she never aimed one shot at distance, always in close combat to kill never missing once.  How convenient the sights had been removed yet it was a gun used to shoot vermin

All a little too convenient.  :o
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: guest7363 on December 05, 2019, 01:52:PM
All a little too convenient.  :o
  How convenient Bamber in his defence said “his father would never call the police because he didn’t like to involve such organisations etc” and that’s why he called me. Everyone jumped on the band wagon, oh he must be telling the truth Neville was a Magistrate he wouldn’t like involving organisations, he was a proud man etc.  Now he contradicts himself and says there was a phone call to the police from his father and his supporters follow suit.  Unbelievable
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on December 05, 2019, 02:18:PM
  How convenient Bamber in his defence said “his father would never call the police because he didn’t like to involve such organisations etc” and that’s why he called me. Everyone jumped on the band wagon, oh he must be telling the truth Neville was a Magistrate he wouldn’t like involving organisations, he was a proud man etc.  Now he contradicts himself and says there was a phone call to the police from his father and his supporters follow suit.  Unbelievable

And are quite adamant that he would have called the police, so when did the shooting start? If he was able to call both Bamber and the police, he must have been uninjured - so when did it all start? Couldn't have been when the police where there because they would have heard the shots and commotion so did it all 'conveniently' occur just before they all arrived?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: guest7363 on December 05, 2019, 07:57:PM
And are quite adamant that he would have called the police, so when did the shooting start? If he was able to call both Bamber and the police, he must have been uninjured - so when did it all start? Couldn't have been when the police where there because they would have heard the shots and commotion so did it all 'conveniently' occur just before they all arrived?
Quite funny really, the lengths they went to, to prove Neville wouldn’t call the police, now they are trying to claim he did 🙏
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on December 05, 2019, 10:13:PM
Quite funny really, the lengths they went to, to prove Neville wouldn’t call the police, now they are trying to claim he did 🙏

I mentioned that to Bamber in my last letter to him and told him he had to alter all of the times to suit. He said that 'NO HE DIDN'T AND ANYWAY, THEY HAD NEW LOGS'. Which clearly - they don't.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: guest7363 on December 07, 2019, 10:06:AM
No, the rifle ejects from only one side, in order to have the casing eject to the right of Sheila, the rifle would have to be turned around or be held upside down. Plus the two shots are at completely different angles. Venezis thought she must have been sitting up - how can she have been sitting up from the angle she died in? Her head would have had to have been leaning uncomfortably against the bedside table or without support at all.

(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4315)
As well as cartridges being one to the left and right of Sheila, why did she shoot herself at Nevilles side of the bed?  Colin said if anything she would have done it in the twins bedroom, there was room between the two beds in the twins room to commit suicide there?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on December 07, 2019, 10:36:AM
Had it been JB who'd done the shooting he'd have put Sheila between the twins to make it look more authentic as a murder/suicide.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: guest7363 on December 07, 2019, 10:44:AM
Had it been JB who'd done the shooting he'd have put Sheila between the twins to make it look more authentic as a murder/suicide.
If he had put Sheila in the twins room, they would have known she had been moved I suppose, so in effect Sheila couldn’t have shot herself?  Unless of course she shot herself once in the main bedroom and walked to the twins room. 
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on December 07, 2019, 10:52:AM
If he had put Sheila in the twins room, they would have known she had been moved I suppose, so in effect Sheila couldn’t have shot herself?  Unless of course she shot herself once in the main bedroom and walked to the twins room.

He wouldn't move her unless she'd been in the main bedroom and he shot her there. There have been suggestions that Jeremy got her out of bed and then made her go into the main bedroom. I don't think that happened, I think she went in there by herself. That doesn't show whether it was Jeremy or Sheila who did it though. Either way, it doesn't explain why she was shot, or shot herself, in that particular place.

Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: guest7363 on December 07, 2019, 11:42:AM
He wouldn't move her unless she'd been in the main bedroom and he shot her the. There have been suggestions that Jeremy got her out of bed and then made her go into the main bedroom. I don't think that happened, I think she went in there by herself. That doesn't show whether it was Jeremy or Sheila who did it though. Either way, it doesn't explain why she was shot, or shot herself, in that particular place.
Quite true, I think she went into that bedroom for a purpose and it wasn’t there?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on December 07, 2019, 11:52:AM
Quite true, I think she went into that bedroom for a purpose and it wasn’t there?

If Jeremy did it, perhaps Sheila went in there to see what happened, and she backed off around the other side of the bed. If Sheila did it, perhaps she shot June last of all and decided to shoot herself in that room but didn't want to do it next to June.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on December 07, 2019, 01:30:PM
Quite true, I think she went into that bedroom for a purpose and it wasn’t there?

I think both she and June tried to use the phone - the one that was later removed (by Bamber) and placed between the magazines.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on December 07, 2019, 01:39:PM
I asked a few weeks back where the phone was usually placed in the bedroom. I thought maybe June had been looking for it and that's why she went round the other side of the bed.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on December 07, 2019, 01:39:PM
I think both she and June tried to use the phone - the one that was later removed (by Bamber) and placed between the magazines.

The phone in the kitchen was the one which was usually in the bedroom - the cream one.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: guest7363 on December 07, 2019, 01:45:PM
I asked a few weeks back where the phone was usually placed in the bedroom. I thought maybe June had been looking for it and that's why she went round the other side of the bed.
Thats what I’m suggesting, they both went to that side for something that was missing, Neville went down to probably use the kitchen one?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: guest7363 on December 07, 2019, 02:15:PM
I think both she and June tried to use the phone - the one that was later removed (by Bamber) and placed between the magazines.
As untidy as the house was, he instructed Jean to throw away the magazines that had been there ages, hidden between these was the digital phone with the cord wrapped around it?  This was the one normally in the kitchen she later tried it and nothing was wrong with it.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on December 07, 2019, 03:46:PM
I think both she and June tried to use the phone - the one that was later removed (by Bamber) and placed between the magazines.

 


There were others who were still on their feet before the phone was moved ? Why blame JB all the time ?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on December 07, 2019, 03:50:PM
There's a lot of info on here somewhere about the phones. The cream one was usually in the bedroom, but it's not known when it was moved to the kitchen. It wasn't necessarily Jeremy who did that. Why would he?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on December 07, 2019, 03:51:PM
The whole scenario is too obvious for it to have been JB anyway. Everything that's been mentioned which has pointed towards it being JB has been too easy. A child of two would/could have solved the crime after the step by step instructions in its head.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on December 07, 2019, 03:56:PM
From the 2002 appeal.

Quote
Telephones 66. There were normally four telephones at White House Farm (although there was only one telephone line). A cream old-fashioned finger-dial telephone kept in the main bedroom (the bedroom telephone), a blue digital telephone in the first floor office (the office telephone), a cream cordless telephone kept in the kitchen but used around and outside the house (the cordless telephone) and a fawn digital telephone also kept in the kitchen (the kitchen telephone). The only telephone with a memory recall feature was the cordless telephone but this had been faulty and was collected for repair on the morning of 5 August 1985.

67. The telephone that had been found with the receiver off its cradle in the kitchen was in fact the bedroom telephone, which had been moved downstairs. The kitchen telephone had been hidden amongst a pile of magazines in the kitchen. The office telephone was in its normal place.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on December 07, 2019, 03:59:PM
One telephone had been put out of action after a storm they'd had.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Steve_uk on December 07, 2019, 04:02:PM
I've already pointed out the case of Sylvia Seegrist enough times.
There are superficial similarities, though manifold differences:

She threatened people commonly, with police being aware of her identity for some time..

She began identifying herself with war and militarism and developed a fascination with negative energy and the San Ysidro McDonald's massacre killer James Huberty.

She started wearing camouflage pants, wraparound sunglasses, a red Arabian-style headdress, and two T-shirts, one saying "Kill Them All", the other reading "Jihad", wearing this attire whilst in the spa and steam room of a local fitness club.

She signed up for the U.S Army in December 1984, but was discharged two months later due to behavioral problems induced by her mental illness.

On one occasion she tried to strangle her mother to death; on another she stabbed her counsellor in the back with a paring knife.

I mean: let members decide whether there's a link between Sylvia Seegrist and Sheila Caffell.



Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Steve_uk on December 07, 2019, 04:04:PM
One telephone had been put out of action after a storm they'd had.
Yes it was strange that Nevill didn't have his brick-sized mobile telephone handy that night.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on December 07, 2019, 04:17:PM
One telephone had been put out of action after a storm they'd had.

The cordless one was out of action because of a storm, but that was in July, and it was replaced by the same make of phone. That phone didn't work and was picked up on 5th August by Douglas Pike. Mr Pike said that there was also a cream telephone in the kitchen - because June didn't like the cordless one. It's not clear which phone that was - the kitchen one has been described as "fawn".

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1107.msg34237.html#msg34237
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on December 07, 2019, 04:20:PM
There was a cream ? one pictured on one of the beds.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on December 07, 2019, 04:28:PM
There was a cream ? one pictured on one of the beds.

Huh? Which photo?

I thought the cream telephone was the one with the handset off in the kitchen - ie, the one which was normally in the bedroom.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on December 07, 2019, 04:38:PM
Huh? Which photo?

I thought the cream telephone was the one with the handset off in the kitchen - ie, the one which was normally in the bedroom.




There are other items which are on the bed too. I think it was possibly photographed in Sheila's bedroom
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on December 07, 2019, 04:51:PM



There are other items which are on the bed too. I think it was possibly photographed in Sheila's bedroom

I've had a look, but I can't see a phone.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on December 07, 2019, 04:55:PM
I've had a look, but I can't see a phone.





I'll try and find it. It's unplugged and on the bed.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on December 07, 2019, 04:58:PM
The phone in the kitchen was the one which was usually in the bedroom - the cream one.

But not directly before the murders because Pike saw it on the bench.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on December 07, 2019, 05:06:PM
But not directly before the murders because Pike saw it on the bench.

I can't find where he says that in his statement - he just said it was in the kitchen. He does say that Nevill unplugged the cordless phone though, so maybe the cream one got plugged in after that.

There is no photo of the "fawn" phone, so I can't say whether that could be described as "cream". Mr Pike did say that the phone he saw was of the type issued by the GPO.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on December 07, 2019, 05:14:PM
I can't find where he says that in his statement - he just said it was in the kitchen. He does say that Nevill unplugged the cordless phone though, so maybe the cream one got plugged in after that.

There is no photo of the "fawn" phone, so I can't say whether that could be described as "cream". Mr Pike did say that the phone he saw was of the type issued by the GPO.

https://www.google.com/search?biw=1366&bih=608&tbm=isch&sxsrf=ACYBGNQh_neWs2pG1ZUpnCM53VAJ5Qcndw%3A1575738207432&sa=1&ei=X9vrXYSKGuqJjLsP5OmIeA&q=+telephones+issued+by+the+GPO&oq=+telephones+issued+by+the+GPO&gs_l=img.3...53404.60955..61806...0.0..2.569.3090.9j3j2j3j0j1......0....1..gws-wiz-img.......35i39j0i24j0i67j0.LepT3CVs9YI&ved=0ahUKEwjEtfOggqTmAhXqBGMBHeQ0Ag8Q4dUDCAc&uact=5
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on December 07, 2019, 05:20:PM
Well there's the cream one in there.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on December 07, 2019, 05:48:PM
Well there's the cream one in there.

?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on December 07, 2019, 06:08:PM
?

(https://www.retrowow.co.uk/telephones/700_series/746_telephone.jpg)
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on December 07, 2019, 07:01:PM
What’s he done wrong?  ???
being born male and having an different opinion
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on December 07, 2019, 07:02:PM
You need to mind your language and your attitude - don't think you can bulldoze over people with the excuse that you're from YORKSHIRE! Plain speaking doesn't mean you need to be a PRICK!

Is this you?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jY4tD2Hbg_A
it wasn't a surveyor was it, it was the police....just saying
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on December 07, 2019, 07:06:PM
being born male and having an different opinion

Having a big mouth and not being able to express your opinion without trying to put down others. Mixing plain speaking up with swearing, insulting and just being an all around prick. Just saying!
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on December 07, 2019, 07:09:PM
Having a big mouth and not being able to express your opinion without trying to put down others. Mixing plain speaking up with swearing, insulting and just being an all around prick. Just saying!
I have done nothing of the sort. You posted a clip of Harry Enfield the Yorkshire man and not a counter point to what I said....
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on December 07, 2019, 07:15:PM
I have done nothing of the sort. You posted a clip of Harry Enfield the Yorkshire man and not a counter point to what I said....

Your posts were removed because of your goading behaviour. You have used being a Yorkshire man to explain your so called 'plain speaking; - which is bollocks. Instead of telling others they are talking crap, you have been asked to provide your own thoughts on what happened but you have yet to take up that challenge. I suspect that it's because if you're not putting others down, you would have very little to say!
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: guest7363 on December 07, 2019, 08:02:PM
on the flip side I suggest you are overweight and In your forties and are also sexually frustrated but let's not become personal yes....
you don’t deserve to be here, your disgusting 
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on December 07, 2019, 08:02:PM
The difference is I counteract points that you put forward. And you can't respond to them.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on December 07, 2019, 08:05:PM
It's perfectly okay for Caroline to insult my Yorkshire heritage and call me a prick though...
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on December 07, 2019, 08:08:PM
All my interest is geared toward rewarding Jeremy nevill Bamber a fair re  trial which he didn't receive back in 1986
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Steve_uk on December 07, 2019, 08:11:PM
on the flip side I suggest you are overweight and In your forties and are also sexually frustrated but let's not become personal yes....
..and the booze has taken hold of you again tonight hasn't it, or you would show a little more respect for established members? You're heading the same way as Luminous Wanderer, who made some very good points but couldn't see the contradiction when he attempted to channel every other member's thoughts through his way of thinking and castigated those who deviated one iota from the subject of the thread. Deep down he may have been a narcissist who couldn't stomach the slightest criticism and eventually he petulantly requested his name to be removed from the site.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Steve_uk on December 07, 2019, 08:13:PM
you don’t deserve to be here, your disgusting
I suggest one last warning, believing that there may be some good in him, though the alcohol is talking tonight.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on December 07, 2019, 08:44:PM
on the flip side I suggest you are overweight and In your forties and are also sexually frustrated but let's not become personal yes....

Everyone can see you're a prick and your comment above proves you are - not only that, it's also shows your sheer lack of intelligence. As you can't see me or know nothing about how I live or who I live with - it's something a 10 year old would say when he's not being included in the game!  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Justice is right, you are disgusting!
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on December 07, 2019, 08:45:PM
It's perfectly okay for Caroline to insult my Yorkshire heritage and call me a prick though...

Not insulting your heritage, it' directed at YOU for using your heritage as an excuse for what you are!
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on December 07, 2019, 08:47:PM
All my interest is geared toward rewarding Jeremy nevill Bamber a fair re  trial which he didn't receive back in 1986

You're no help to Bamber, try learning about the case instead of getting tanked up and talking bollocks!
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on December 07, 2019, 08:47:PM
The difference is I counteract points that you put forward. And you can't respond to them.

Because the points you make are repetitive bullshit!
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on December 07, 2019, 08:49:PM
..and the booze has taken hold of you again tonight hasn't it, or you would show a little more respect for established members? You're heading the same way as Luminous Wanderer, who made some very good points but couldn't see the contradiction when he attempted to channel every other member's thoughts through his way of thinking and castigated those who deviated one iota from the subject of the thread. Deep down he may have been a narcissist who couldn't stomach the slightest criticism and eventually he petulantly requested his name to be removed from the site.

I doubt ole boozy will need to request it!
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on December 07, 2019, 08:51:PM
Still doesn't counteract me though in any shape or form ....
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on December 07, 2019, 08:53:PM
Because the points you make are repetitive bullshit!
you just can't beat me can you....
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on December 07, 2019, 08:54:PM
You're no help to Bamber, try learning about the case instead of getting tanked up and talking bollocks!
I know Jeremy personally . Pick the bones out of that one
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on December 07, 2019, 08:59:PM
I know Jeremy personally . Pick the bones out of that one

Ah, that makes sense - banged up with him were you?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on December 07, 2019, 09:00:PM
Still doesn't counteract me though in any shape or form ....

You have said anything to counteract!
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on December 07, 2019, 09:01:PM
you just can't beat me can you....

No one can beat you at being a prick - the crown on that score - is YOURS!
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Steve_uk on December 07, 2019, 09:25:PM
I know Jeremy personally . Pick the bones out of that one
I'm quite good at picking the bones, even though it may be a carcass. You've been conned by a man who learned his trade through the prism of a top public school, rubbing shoulders with the landed gentry and the braggarts who may well have had something to boast about. Jeremy never had: I don't blame him for this in the slightest initially but he has made up a complex narrative over the years to compensate for this and has had plenty of time to do so.

Now are you going to tell us how you came to know Jeremy Bamber personally or revert back into your alcohol-fuelled carapace?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on December 07, 2019, 09:25:PM
You have said anything to counteract!
oh come on, mugford , crispy Bruce, the one shot etc etc
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on December 07, 2019, 09:32:PM
I'm quite good at picking the bones, even though it may be a carcass. You've been conned by a man who learned his trade through the prism of a top public school, rubbing shoulders with the landed gentry and the braggarts who may well have had something to boast about. Jeremy never had: I don't blame him for this in the slightest initially but he has made up a complex narrative over the years to compensate for this and has had plenty of time to do so.

Now are you going to tell us how you came to know Jeremy Bamber personally or revert back into your alcohol-fuelled carapace?
he flipped burgers and pulled pints in sloppy joes Steve ....
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on December 07, 2019, 09:33:PM
oh come on, mugford , crispy Bruce, the one shot etc etc

Answered you on all those but who's 'crispy bruce' and what about them?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on December 07, 2019, 09:34:PM
I'm quite good at picking the bones, even though it may be a carcass. You've been conned by a man who learned his trade through the prism of a top public school, rubbing shoulders with the landed gentry and the braggarts who may well have had something to boast about. Jeremy never had: I don't blame him for this in the slightest initially but he has made up a complex narrative over the years to compensate for this and has had plenty of time to do so.

Now are you going to tell us how you came to know Jeremy Bamber personally or revert back into your alcohol-fuelled carapace?

He won't answer you Steve because he came here to troll me. Personally, I think he might have another account, he sounds pretty familiar!
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on December 07, 2019, 09:34:PM
Answered you on all those but who's 'crispy bruce' and what about them?
the whf dogs cazza....
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on December 07, 2019, 09:36:PM
Ah, that makes sense - banged up with him were you?
you cannot pull the wool over this girl's eyes....
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Steve_uk on December 07, 2019, 09:38:PM
I think your time is up here..
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on December 07, 2019, 09:40:PM
I think your time is up here..
and I once again apologise for having an opinion
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on December 07, 2019, 09:41:PM
He won't answer you Steve because he came here to troll me. Personally, I think he might have another account, he sounds pretty familiar!
wrong.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on December 07, 2019, 09:43:PM
wrong.

I don't think so!
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on December 07, 2019, 09:45:PM
I don't think so!

The profile has sat dormant since 2015 and you suddenly decide to defend Bamber. Yeah right!
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on December 07, 2019, 09:48:PM
the whf dogs cazza....

I know - what about them errrrm boozy

Interesting, people have a posting style and even when they are pretending to be someone else, there are certain things, they can't help doing - second nature I guess.  ;)
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on December 07, 2019, 09:55:PM
you cannot pull the wool over this girl's eyes....

No you can't!

So, you finally said something interesting. So when were you and he old lags together?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on December 07, 2019, 09:59:PM
The profile has sat dormant since 2015 and you suddenly decide to defend Bamber. Yeah right!
maybe I just had bigger priorities such as friends,family ,sex, work, et Al....
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on December 07, 2019, 10:00:PM
maybe I just had bigger priorities such as friends,family , consensual sex, work, et Al....

Yeah of course you did! Come off it!  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on December 07, 2019, 10:01:PM
No you can't!

So, you finally said something interesting. So when were you and he old lags together?
long lartin ....
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on December 07, 2019, 10:11:PM
long lartin ....

So, he must have made quite an impression eve though;

The funny thing is. I'm not even an ardent supporter of Bambers innocence  ;D ;D
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on December 07, 2019, 10:27:PM
No not really , do continue my Lord...
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on December 07, 2019, 10:46:PM
No not really , do continue my Lord...

Having met him, you must have insight - come one! It's the first interesting thing you've said since you re-hydrated the profile!
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on December 08, 2019, 12:05:PM
Well whoever it is has chosen to ignore me-------now let me think !
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on December 08, 2019, 12:32:PM
Well whoever it is has chosen to ignore me-------now let me think !



Ignore you, Lookout!!! How DARE they? How very discourteous!!!
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on December 08, 2019, 12:46:PM


Ignore you, Lookout!!! How DARE they? How very discourteous!!!




That's just what I thought-----
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on December 08, 2019, 12:56:PM
Well whoever it is has chosen to ignore me-------now let me think !

They have no beef with you Lookout - in fact, they like you. They used to like me when I thought Bamber was innocent. That's all I'm saying!  ;D
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on December 08, 2019, 01:03:PM
They have no beef with you Lookout - in fact, they like you. They used to like me when I thought Bamber was innocent. That's all I'm saying!  ;D





It didn't acknowledge any post I'd made even though it appeared to be on the innocent side. I nearly resorted to insults to get its attention  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D  I can't believe who I think it is but it just shows how drink/drugs addle the brain to the point of insanity. I can't be doing with it.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on December 08, 2019, 01:07:PM




It didn't acknowledge any post I'd made even though it appeared to be on the innocent side. I nearly resorted to insults to get its attention  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D  I can't believe who I think it is but it just shows how drink/drugs addle the brain to the point of insanity. I can't be doing with it.


Tell me again about how you're never hoodwinked, Lookout ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D..............PS. Neither can the rest of us ;)
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on December 08, 2019, 01:11:PM

Tell me again about how you're never hoodwinked, Lookout ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D..............PS. Neither can the rest of us ;)





It would take a lot for me to be hoodwinked. You don't know me ! A lot of people are plate-glass to me.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on December 08, 2019, 01:17:PM




It would take a lot for me to be hoodwinked. You don't know me ! A lot of people are plate-glass to me.


So it might, but it will be less plain sailing -or should I say more obscure glassed- when they're hiding behind a screen.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on December 08, 2019, 01:20:PM

So it might, but it will be less plain sailing -or should I say more obscure glassed- when they're hiding behind a screen.





I can still suss out the style of writing etc. that gives me a " feel " of the character.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on December 08, 2019, 01:33:PM




I can still suss out the style of writing etc. that gives me a " feel " of the character.


But it takes a while for that style to become recognized as personal rather than generic.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on December 08, 2019, 01:40:PM
This person is recognisable, not so much by the style, but by their habits!  ;)
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on December 08, 2019, 01:46:PM
This person is recognisable, not so much by the style, but by their habits!  ;)



Yes. It has, on occasion, been my misfortune to come across other of those for whom alcohol has had a similarly bad effect. Of course, I'm inclined to believe it just brings out those aspects in their personality which they'd prefer to remain hidden.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on December 08, 2019, 02:00:PM


Yes. It has, on occasion, been my misfortune to come across other of those for whom alcohol has had a similarly bad effect. Of course, I'm inclined to believe it just brings out those aspects in their personality which they'd prefer to remain hidden.





No. I believe that alcohol like drugs, alter the brain or why be so different after you've imbibed both ? It's like the first step to having a split personality.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on December 08, 2019, 02:13:PM




No. I believe that alcohol like drugs, alter the brain or why be so different after you've imbibed both ? It's like the first step to having a split personality.


I know rather more about alcohol than drugs. I recall hearing that alcohol loosens the tongue. I don't believe that it changes the brain until the drinker reaches the stage of delerium tremens. Until then it simply releases those parts of our personalities we'd soon remain hidden, ie anger, jealousy, aggression. Of course, it also removes those inhibitions which keep us from enjoying ourselves!!! The effects of recreational drug taking may be similar, again, UP to a certain point.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: guest7363 on December 08, 2019, 02:48:PM




No. I believe that alcohol like drugs, alter the brain or why be so different after you've imbibed both ? It's like the first step to having a split personality.
No more cruises for me then 🙈🙈🙈
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on December 08, 2019, 02:51:PM




No. I believe that alcohol like drugs, alter the brain or why be so different after you've imbibed both ? It's like the first step to having a split personality.

In the main, alcohol has a temporary affect on the brain. Some people are just nasty drunks and should steer clear.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on December 08, 2019, 02:52:PM
No more cruises for me then 🙈🙈🙈





Don't let that stop you.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on December 08, 2019, 03:04:PM
No more cruises for me then 🙈🙈🙈



Heeheehee. Not till next time ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on December 08, 2019, 04:11:PM
The funny thing about this is that not a drop of alcohol went past my lips last night.....
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on December 08, 2019, 04:19:PM
The funny thing about this is that not a drop of alcohol went past my lips last night.....



Okay. So are you saying that you habitually speak like an ignorant, misogynistic, foul mouthed moron....?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on December 08, 2019, 04:24:PM
Or----how to welcome posters.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: David1819 on December 08, 2019, 04:26:PM
This person is recognisable, not so much by the style, but by their habits!  ;)

Before ILB posted anything, I thought it was Holly from red.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on December 08, 2019, 04:27:PM
There seems to be a lot of insults towards ILB.

Just saying.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on December 08, 2019, 04:27:PM
Before ILB posted anything, I thought it was Holly from red.





And I thought it was the other foul-mouthed idiot.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on December 08, 2019, 04:39:PM
There seems to be a lot of insults towards ILB.

Just saying.


Just say away. You clearly haven't seen the insults he's been throwing out or I'm certain you'd have shown support for the person who's been the recipient of most of them.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on December 08, 2019, 04:45:PM
There seems to be a lot of insults towards ILB.

Just saying.

And you were witness to his behaviour last week - you even pulled him about it. Some people on here need a word with themselves! His vile disgusting posts have been removed but don't let knowing only half the story stand in your way! JUST SAYING!

Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on December 08, 2019, 04:58:PM


Okay. So are you saying that you habitually speak like an ignorant, misogynistic, foul mouthed moron....?
no
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on December 08, 2019, 05:00:PM
Just for clarification. I only have the one account on here. I have registered on lambertons but have never posted
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on December 08, 2019, 05:00:PM
no

Just when you're hidden behind  computer screen?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on December 08, 2019, 05:02:PM
Ah----Lambertons. Enough said !!
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on December 08, 2019, 05:03:PM
Just when you're hidden behind  computer screen?
you have been abusive toward me as well. But obviously because you are female that can be tolerated
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on December 08, 2019, 05:06:PM
you have been abusive toward me as well. But obviously because you are female that can be tolerated

From day one you had to be pulled about your behaviour. You reaped what you sewed!
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on December 08, 2019, 05:08:PM
You just don't like it when you are proven wrong. There's nothing you have said that I cannot offer an alternative explanation for
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on December 08, 2019, 05:09:PM

Just say away. You clearly haven't seen the insults he's been throwing out or I'm certain you'd have shown support for the person who's been the recipient of most of them.

I have seen them. I mentioned it to him at the time. Wasn't he banned for a while? There have been insults directed towards him though, so those doing that are no better IMO.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on December 08, 2019, 05:10:PM
And you were witness to his behaviour last week - you even pulled him about it. Some people on here need a word with themselves! His vile disgusting posts have been removed but don't let knowing only half the story stand in your way! JUST SAYING!

Yes I did pull him up. Since then I've seen him called a "prick" and a "moron".

Just saying ...
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on December 08, 2019, 05:10:PM
Just for clarification. I only have the one account on here. I have registered on lambertons but have never posted

What is Lambertons?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on December 08, 2019, 05:11:PM
no


Is that "No" as in never, in your opinion, OR "No. Only when I'm sober" ?...
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on December 08, 2019, 05:12:PM
What is Lambertons?
red forum, owned I believe by John lamberton. A man who claims to be a miscarriage of justice over being convicted of inheritence tax fraud
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on December 08, 2019, 05:13:PM
red forum, owned I believe by John lamberton. A man who claims to be a miscarriage of justice over being convicted of inheritence tax fraud

Ah yes, the red forum. I didn't know who owned it.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on December 08, 2019, 05:13:PM
What is Lambertons?




The forum where you get insulted when you're not even posting on it. The red one----for danger.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on December 08, 2019, 05:15:PM



The forum where you get insulted when you're not even posting on it. The red one----for danger.

Thanks. I know which one it is now - the UK Justice forum. I have no problem with it - there's some interesting stuff on it. I don't know about insults though.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on December 08, 2019, 05:16:PM
You just don't like it when you are proven wrong. There's nothing you have said that I cannot offer an alternative explanation for

I couldn't give a crap about being wrong, I used to believe Bamber was innocent - couldn't have been MORE wrong. You haven't had a coherent post yet and I haven't seen ANY explanations about anything from you. You haven't proven anyone wrong or right - you even contradict yourself!

One minute your're saying
Jeremy is Innocent
And the next
The funny thing is. I'm not even an ardent supporter of Bambers innocence  ;D ;D

You don't know what you're talking about -  who can have a serious debate with the likes of you? I don't believe this is your only profile either!



Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on December 08, 2019, 05:18:PM
Thanks. I know which one it is now - the UK Justice forum. I have no problem with it - there's some interesting stuff on it. I don't know about insults though.





Probably because you're an unknown quantity in this case, whereas because I'm a staunch innocent supporter I've had to battle the slings and arrows over the years, on here but from those on there.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on December 08, 2019, 05:19:PM
I couldn't give a crap about being wrong, I used to believe Bamber was innocent - couldn't have been MORE wrong. You haven't had a coherent post yet and I haven't seen ANY explanations about anything from you. You haven't proven anyone wrong or right - you even contradict yourself!

One minute your're saying And the next
You don't know what you're talking about -  who can have a serious debate with the likes of you? I don't believe this is your only profile either!
the whole case is a leaky vessell
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on December 08, 2019, 05:20:PM
I have seen them. I mentioned it to him at the time. Wasn't he banned for a while? There have been insults directed towards him though, so those doing that are no better IMO.


I think you'll find that it was he who started it. WHY, when the forum is low on members who contribute would anyone throw insults/pass personal opinions on a new poster's lifestyle? He was warned -several times- and eventually banned. He came back, giving the reason for his ban on his different opinions, twice as obnoxious -or drunk- as he'd previously been. Through most of this I've been away. Unable to post, I've had a very clear view of what he's been doing. I did see that you'd "mentioned it to him" which was a rather weak response compared to that which you aim at those on the receiving end of his objectionable remarks.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on December 08, 2019, 05:22:PM
Yes I did pull him up. Since then I've seen him called a "prick" and a "moron".

Just saying ...

What else would you call someone who, from the back of his computer screen decides I must fat, without a partner and sexually frustrated?  ;D ;D ;D ;D and all because I think Bamber is guilty? What else would you call someone like that? It never ceases to amaze me what crawls out from under s stone to support Jeremy Bamber - if I were him, I wouldn't want their support because they do him no favours!
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on December 08, 2019, 05:23:PM
the whole case is a leaky vessell

It's not the only leaky vessell around here!
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on December 08, 2019, 05:25:PM
It's not the only leaky vessell around here!
  Jeremy Bambers conviction will eventually fall
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on December 08, 2019, 05:26:PM
  Jeremy Bambers conviction will eventually fall

Uh huh.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on December 08, 2019, 05:26:PM
What else would you call someone who, from the back of his computer screen decides I must fat, without a partner and sexually frustrated?  ;D ;D ;D ;D and all because I think Bamber is guilty? What else would you call someone like that? It never ceases to amaze me what crawls out from under s stone to support Jeremy Bamber - if I were him, I wouldn't want their support because they do him no favours!
I have had no contact with Jeremy Bamber since 1995....
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on December 08, 2019, 05:26:PM

I think you'll find that it was he who started it. WHY, when the forum is low on members who contribute would anyone throw insults/pass personal opinions on a new poster's lifestyle? He was warned -several times- and eventually banned. He came back, giving the reason for his ban on his different opinions, twice as obnoxious -or drunk- as he'd previously been. Through most of this I've been away. Unable to post, I've had a very clear view of what he's been doing. I did see that you'd "mentioned it to him" which was a rather weak response compared to that which you aim at those on the receiving end of his objectionable remarks.

I'm not aiming at those on the receiving end, I'm talking about the insults like "prick" and "moron", which are not necessarily in response to insults from him.



Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on December 08, 2019, 05:27:PM
You just don't like it when you are proven wrong. There's nothing you have said that I cannot offer an alternative explanation for



So if it's possible to offer an alternative, why resort to insults and objectionable language? Could it be that such is your norm?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on December 08, 2019, 05:27:PM
What else would you call someone who, from the back of his computer screen decides I must fat, without a partner and sexually frustrated?  ;D ;D ;D ;D and all because I think Bamber is guilty? What else would you call someone like that? It never ceases to amaze me what crawls out from under s stone to support Jeremy Bamber - if I were him, I wouldn't want their support because they do him no favours!

Didn't he call you those things in response to you calling him a "prick"?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on December 08, 2019, 05:30:PM


So if it's possible to offer an alternative, why resort to insults and objectionable language? Could it be that such is your norm?
I have done and I get shot down with abuse for it. I get slaughtered for saying the f word.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on December 08, 2019, 05:31:PM
I'm not aiming at those on the receiving end, I'm talking about the insults like "prick" and "moron", which are not necessarily in response to insults from him.

When the insults are aimed at you, you can decide the response, as they aren't - your intervention is just stoking the fire!
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on December 08, 2019, 05:32:PM
Didn't he call you those things in response to you calling him a "prick"?

No, the other way around!
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on December 08, 2019, 05:33:PM
A bit highly strung is our cazza isn't she ..
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on December 08, 2019, 05:34:PM
I have done and I get shot down with abuse for it. I get slaughtered for saying the f word.

Asking you not to swear is abuse?  ::)
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on December 08, 2019, 05:34:PM
A bit highly strung is our cazza isn't she ..

Ha, ha! You should be!
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on December 08, 2019, 05:35:PM
  Jeremy Bambers conviction will eventually fall




Yeh, yeh! The guy who used to be 'top dog' among supporters here said the same thing. Trouble was, his difficulty in telling the truth, and the lies he told to back up the stories he invented, twisted him in knots of his own making and he turned his attentions to other cases. He said he'd done time with Jeremy, too
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on December 08, 2019, 05:35:PM
Asking you not to swear is abuse?  ::)
I am a grown man if I want to swear I can. It is who i am. Im passionate
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on December 08, 2019, 05:37:PM



Yeh, yeh! The guy who used to be 'top dog' among supporters here said the same thing. Trouble was, his difficulty in telling the truth, and the lies he told to back up the stories he invented, twisted him in knots of his own making and he turned his attentions to other cases. He said he'd done time with Jeremy, too
v Mike teskowski and Jeremy Bamber were at full sutton together ... Its common knowledge
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on December 08, 2019, 05:38:PM
I am a grown man if I want to swear I can. It is who i am. Im passionate

In life there are rules, they aren't just made for other people - the rule is here, you don't swear. If you don't have that much self control, then you're more of a child than a grown man!
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on December 08, 2019, 05:38:PM
When the insults are aimed at you, you can decide the response, as they aren't - your intervention is just stoking the fire!

It's all taking it off topic, so I think it's my business.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on December 08, 2019, 05:39:PM
I have done and I get shot down with abuse for it. I get slaughtered for saying the f word.



You simply display ignorance when the only adjective available to you is the f word. It's entirely unnecessary for you to employ it's use here.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on December 08, 2019, 05:40:PM
It's all taking it off topic, so I think it's my business.

Then carry on stoking.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on December 08, 2019, 05:40:PM
No, the other way around!

You sure about that?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on December 08, 2019, 05:41:PM
v Mike teskowski and Jeremy Bamber were at full sutton together ... Its common knowledge

She didn't say they weren't!
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on December 08, 2019, 05:45:PM
I am a grown man if I want to swear I can. It is who i am. Im passionate


Swear as much as you like, as long as it's not here. The reason no one else here uses the language you choose to is because it's not welcomed. It's totally discouraged. When you choose not to follow rules, bans follow.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on December 08, 2019, 05:46:PM
You sure about that?

Absolutely positive - as NGB had to waste his time cleaning up the thread, I am sure he can verify! Although quite why anyone needs to justify anything to you, when you're not above joining in and stirring - is beyond me.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on December 08, 2019, 05:48:PM
Absolutely positive - as NGB had to waste his time cleaning up the thread, I am sure he can verify! Although quite why anyone needs to justify anything to you, when you're not above joining in and stirring - is beyond me.

This isn't the first time this has happened. If you didn't keep on calling him names, maybe it would calm down. You're the one who's stirring.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on December 08, 2019, 05:50:PM
This isn't the first time this has happened. If you didn't keep on calling him names, maybe it would calm down. You're the one who's stirring.


Mmm. It's quite easy to see where your sympathies lay. Actually, they probably don't. It feels like it's more a case of you getting a dig in at any detractor.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on December 08, 2019, 05:51:PM

Mmm. It's quite easy to see where your sympathies lay. Actually, they probably don't. It feels like it's more a case of you getting a dig in at any detractor.

Why are you starting on me?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on December 08, 2019, 05:53:PM
Why are you starting on me?


I think it's you who takes the prize for "starting"...............and stirring.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on December 08, 2019, 05:54:PM
This isn't the first time this has happened. If you didn't keep on calling him names, maybe it would calm down. You're the one who's stirring.

No, it's not the first time, the first time he was banned and learned nothing. When something is aimed at me, I'll retaliate.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on December 08, 2019, 05:54:PM
Why are you starting on me?

Unbelievable!  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on December 08, 2019, 05:55:PM

I think it's you who takes the prize for "starting"...............and stirring.

Says the person who always jumps in to speak for her mate.

Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on December 08, 2019, 05:56:PM
No, it's not the first time, the first time he was banned and learned nothing. When something is aimed at me, I'll retaliate.

You keep on "retaliating" long after the moment has passed though.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on December 08, 2019, 05:57:PM
You keep on "retaliating" long after the moment has passed though.

How would you know - you weren't even here!  ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on December 08, 2019, 05:57:PM
Says the person who always jumps in to speak for her mate.


I reiterate. Top marks for stirring.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on December 08, 2019, 05:59:PM
Kaldin. For a moment just reference cinderella..
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on December 08, 2019, 06:00:PM
Says the person who always jumps in to speak for her mate.

And why would you have a problem with that?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on December 08, 2019, 06:01:PM
How would you know - you weren't even here!  ;D ;D ;D ;D

I can read back, and I can see what time posts were made, even if they've been deleted ...
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on December 08, 2019, 06:01:PM
And why would you have a problem with that?

It's tag teaming.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on December 08, 2019, 06:02:PM
Kaldin. For a moment just reference cinderella..

And in your case, we should reference Rumpelstiltskin - no one knew his real name at first either!  ;)
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on December 08, 2019, 06:02:PM
Kaldin. For a moment just reference cinderella..

Huh?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on December 08, 2019, 06:02:PM
It's tag teaming.

The same as you and you new mate ILB are doing!
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on December 08, 2019, 06:03:PM
v Mike teskowski and Jeremy Bamber were at full sutton together ... Its common knowledge



And you said, didn't you, that you did time with Jeremy?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on December 08, 2019, 06:04:PM
Huh?

He's talking about 'the ugly sisters' - again, he hasn't seen either Jane or I. Another moronic comment!
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on December 08, 2019, 06:04:PM
The same as you and you new mate ILB are doing!

No we're not. I'm posting separately.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on December 08, 2019, 06:05:PM
No we're not. I'm posting separately.

You're doing EXACTLY the same as you're accusing Jane and I of doing!  ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on December 08, 2019, 06:06:PM

I reiterate. Top marks for stirring.

It's you who started on ILB, and now you're starting on me. You seem unaware of your own bad behaviour. 
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on December 08, 2019, 06:06:PM
It's you who started on ILB, and now you're starting on me. You seem unaware of your own bad behaviour.

As do you!
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on December 08, 2019, 06:07:PM
You're doing EXACTLY the same as you're accusing Jane and I of doing!  ;D ;D ;D ;D

I'm merely trying to prevent this thread from becoming a silly playground with you and others hurling insults backwards and forwards.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on December 08, 2019, 06:07:PM
I'm merely trying to prevent this thread from becoming a silly playground with you and others hurling insults backwards and forwards.

Far from doing that, you're adding to it!
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on December 08, 2019, 06:11:PM
Shell casings land where they land I would have thought and will re-direct if they hit something.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on December 08, 2019, 06:14:PM
Anyway, I can't remember which thread I was talking about the cream telephone in, but I have found a statement from Barbara Wilson where she says that the usual phone in the kitchen was an old-fashioned type with a finger dial, and that it was cream. Does that not sound like the phone which was there the night of the murders? In that case, it wasn't moved downstairs from the bedroom.

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=8980.0;attach=50238;image
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on December 08, 2019, 06:16:PM
Anyway, I can't remember which thread I was talking about the cream telephone in, but I have found a statement from Barbara Wilson where she says that the usual phone in the kitchen was an old-fashioned type with a finger dial, and that it was cream. Does that not sound like the phone which was there the night of the murders? In that case, it wasn't moved downstairs from the bedroom.

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=8980.0;attach=50238;image





As I'd said the other day, there was a cream telephone on Sheila's bed with other items.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on December 08, 2019, 06:18:PM


And you said, didn't you, that you did time with Jeremy?
i did
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on December 08, 2019, 06:18:PM




As I'd said the other day, there was a cream telephone on Sheila's bed with other items.

There isn't lookout - I've seen the photos.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on December 08, 2019, 06:20:PM
And in your case, we should reference Rumpelstiltskin - no one knew his real name at first either!  ;)
another sinister post
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on December 08, 2019, 06:22:PM
I can't see a telephone in this photo.

(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=34127;image)
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on December 08, 2019, 06:24:PM
I can't see a telephone in this photo.

(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=34127;image)

Because there was no telephone in Sheila's room.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on December 08, 2019, 06:27:PM
That's not the same photograph.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: guest7363 on December 08, 2019, 06:28:PM
Shell casings land where they land I would have thought and will re-direct if they hit something.
To be honest Lookout, I had this conversation with my son in law yesterday, he served 23 years with the parachute regiment, that’s why I was in Colchester for eight years, he’s fired the weapon in question, he did say they do ping out fast and with a deflector plate could ping forward or easily bounce off something.  I was going to post this yesterday until the debate got sidetracked. He has fired every weapon you can think of, he’s now licenced  to carry guns out in Iraq for protection work.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on December 08, 2019, 06:29:PM
That's not the same photograph.

As what?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on December 08, 2019, 06:31:PM
That's not the same photograph.

There are other variations of the same scene, but none of them contain a telephone.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on December 08, 2019, 06:35:PM
To be honest Lookout, I had this conversation with my son in law yesterday, he served 23 years with the parachute regiment, that’s why I was in Colchester for eight years, he’s fired the weapon in question, he did say they do ping out fast and with a deflector plate could ping forward or easily bounce off something.  I was going to post this yesterday until the debate got sidetracked. He has fired every weapon you can think of, he’s now licenced  to carry guns out in Iraq for protection work.





It seems common sense to me RJ . It's an entirely different matter if they're physically moved to where you want them to be.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on December 08, 2019, 06:35:PM
(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=33812)

There was no telephone in Sheila's room.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Steve_uk on December 08, 2019, 06:37:PM
Don't you find it sad there was no room for the twins if one of them was frightened and wished to move into the adjacent bed, or just wanted a cuddle..
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on December 08, 2019, 06:39:PM
Don't you find it sad there was no room for the twins if one of them was frightened and wished to move into the adjacent bed, or just wanted a cuddle..





Which is why they didn't like going there probably.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on December 08, 2019, 06:42:PM
There are other variations of the same scene, but none of them contain a telephone.





My mistake, it was on a different bed in another room but there's definitely a cream telephone on the bed with other articles.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on December 08, 2019, 06:42:PM
Don't you find it sad there was no room for the twins if one of them was frightened and wished to move into the adjacent bed, or just wanted a cuddle..

What do you mean?  ???
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on December 08, 2019, 06:43:PM




My mistake, it was on a different bed in another room but there's definitely a cream telephone on the bed with other articles.

There was no phone on the bed in the main bedroom, and there are no photos of the twins' room, so I think it must be relating to another case or something.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on December 08, 2019, 06:57:PM
There was no phone on the bed in the main bedroom, and there are no photos of the twins' room, so I think it must be relating to another case or something.





I've been doing a search because I know I've seen an unplugged phone on a bed. It's driving me mad now.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Steve_uk on December 08, 2019, 06:58:PM
What do you mean?  ???
Well the farmhouse was not a location the twins or Sheila for that matter particularly enjoyed visiting, it being rather foreboding and intimidating with June's presence (remember the drawings and the inscription carved in the wardrobe). Under these circumstances had Sheila been in full control of her faculties she might have removed her cosmetics and sundry articles from the spare bed in case one or both of her sons felt the need for reassurance once darkness fell.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Steve_uk on December 08, 2019, 07:00:PM




I've been doing a search because I know I've seen an unplugged phone on a bed. It's driving me mad now.
We only have pictures of beds in the master bedroom and Sheila's room lookout. You must be thinking of the telephone hidden hurriedly amongst the magazines in the kitchen by Jeremy.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on December 08, 2019, 07:01:PM




I've been doing a search because I know I've seen an unplugged phone on a bed. It's driving me mad now.

You mean this one but this is a picture from when the Eaton's lived there.

(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=37196)
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on December 08, 2019, 07:01:PM
Well the farmhouse was not a location the twins or Sheila for that matter particularly enjoyed visiting, it being rather foreboding and intimidating with June's presence (remember the drawings and the inscription carved in the wardrobe). Under these circumstances had Sheila been in full control of her faculties she might have removed her cosmetics and sundry articles from the spare bed in case one or both of her sons felt the need for reassurance once darkness fell.

It wouldn't take much to remove those items, and I don't suppose it occurred to Sheila, whether in full control of her facilities or not. The boys were together in their own room, and there's no suggestion that either of them had a problem with that.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on December 08, 2019, 07:03:PM
You mean this one but this is a picture from when the Eaton's lived there.

(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=37196)

I looked at that photo, but missed the telephone!

Yes, it's a later photo. I have no idea why it was taken.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on December 08, 2019, 07:05:PM
We only have pictures of beds in the master bedroom and Sheila's room lookout. You must be thinking of the telephone hidden hurriedly amongst the magazines in the kitchen by Jeremy.




No Steve, it was definitely on a bed and a cream one  ( phone )at that. I wish I could remember one ot two of the other items that were also on the bed. It was a light bedcover and there was a door to the right of the bed.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on December 08, 2019, 07:07:PM
I looked at that photo, but missed the telephone!

Yes, it's a later photo. I have no idea why it was taken.

It was taken as part of a documentary, AE allowed the crew in to film and take pictures.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on December 08, 2019, 07:08:PM



No Steve, it was definitely on a bed and a cream one  ( phone )at that. I wish I could remember one ot two of the other items that were also on the bed. It was a light bedcover and there was a door to the right of the bed.

There is a phone in the photo Caroline just posted.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on December 08, 2019, 07:08:PM
It was taken as part of a documentary, AE allowed the crew in to film and take pictures.

I think I would have tidied up a bit first.  ;D
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: guest7363 on December 08, 2019, 07:09:PM




I've been doing a search because I know I've seen an unplugged phone on a bed. It's driving me mad now.
Your trying too hard Lookout, relax and have a cup of Yorkshire tea 👌
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on December 08, 2019, 07:13:PM
You mean this one but this is a picture from when the Eaton's lived there.

(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=37196)





Oh yes, that's the one I was thinking of.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on December 08, 2019, 07:17:PM
Another thing ,we've never seen any pics of the sitting room to form an opinion of the layout.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on December 08, 2019, 07:25:PM
Well the farmhouse was not a location the twins or Sheila for that matter particularly enjoyed visiting, it being rather foreboding and intimidating with June's presence (remember the drawings and the inscription carved in the wardrobe). Under these circumstances had Sheila been in full control of her faculties she might have removed her cosmetics and sundry articles from the spare bed in case one or both of her sons felt the need for reassurance once darkness fell.
i think your looking at things through rose tinted glasses steve
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Steve_uk on December 08, 2019, 07:42:PM
i think your looking at things through rose tinted glasses steve
Not at all: how can mentioning those terrible drawings and inscription be regarded as nostalgic?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on December 08, 2019, 07:53:PM
If I'd been their teacher I'd have questioned those drawings/paintings from children so young. It's afterall a teacher's way of having an idea what the home-life is like through drawing/painting . It wasn't normal.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on December 08, 2019, 08:07:PM
If I'd been their teacher I'd have questioned those drawings/paintings from children so young. It's afterall a teacher's way of having an idea what the home-life is like through drawing/painting . It wasn't normal.


As a teacher you may not have been privy to them. It's perfectly possible that they didn't do them at school. It's also possible that teachers went with an attitude of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it", ergo, if the children appeared to be alright, they were alright.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on December 08, 2019, 08:15:PM

As a teacher you may not have been privy to them. It's perfectly possible that they didn't do them at school. It's also possible that teachers went with an attitude of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it", ergo, if the children appeared to be alright, they were alright.





When children start school it's not unusual for a teacher to ask the children to draw their house and family. It gives the teacher an idea of each individual child and knowing that a child is honest it's a way of finding out what makes a child tick, especially if the teacher suspects that all's not well.

In the twins case they were late for school, dishevelled and I don't doubt had missed their breakfasts on occasion. A teacher won't question a child but will speak to the school nurse or health visitor to look into it then if there are concerns then social services will be contacted. 
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Steve_uk on December 08, 2019, 08:17:PM




When children start school it's not unusual for a teacher to ask the children to draw their house and family. It gives the teacher an idea of each individual child and knowing that a child is honest it's a way of finding out what makes a child tick, especially if the teacher suspects that all's not well.

In the twins case they were late for school, dishevelled and I don't doubt had missed their breakfasts on occasion. A teacher won't question a child but will speak to the school nurse or health visitor to look into it then if there are concerns then social services will be contacted.
Which they were, and fortunately it wasn't too late to turn their lives around-that is, the short life Jeremy afforded them.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on December 08, 2019, 08:26:PM




When children start school it's not unusual for a teacher to ask the children to draw their house and family. It gives the teacher an idea of each individual child and knowing that a child is honest it's a way of finding out what makes a child tick, especially if the teacher suspects that all's not well.

In the twins case they were late for school, dishevelled and I don't doubt had missed their breakfasts on occasion. A teacher won't question a child but will speak to the school nurse or health visitor to look into it then if there are concerns then social services will be contacted.


I guess it would largely depend on how much child psychology had been in their teaching course. 30+ years on, qualifications are very different. I'm willing to bet that there aren't many 35-40 year olds coming from troubled backgrounds, who had the benefit of coming under psychological care. I suspect they were given what care was available at the time, health visitor/nit nurse/dentist, but little more. It appears that all concerned agencies were satisfied.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on December 08, 2019, 08:32:PM

I guess it would largely depend on how much child psychology had been in their teaching course. 30+ years on, qualifications are very different. I'm willing to bet that there aren't many 35-40 year olds coming from troubled backgrounds, who had the benefit of coming under psychological care. I suspect they were given what care was available at the time, health visitor/nit nurse/dentist, but little more. It appears that all concerned agencies were satisfied.





I don't expect the agencies had much choice but to vanish off the scene with Nevill about and his dislike for officialdom. I bet he chased them.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on December 08, 2019, 08:38:PM




I don't expect the agencies had much choice but to vanish off the scene with Nevill about and his dislike for officialdom. I bet he chased them.


Lookout, Nevill didn't have the far reaching power you imbue him with. His minor jurisdiction in rural Essex didn't extend to a London borough.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on December 08, 2019, 08:48:PM

Lookout, Nevill didn't have the far reaching power you imbue him with. His minor jurisdiction in rural Essex didn't extend to a London borough.





He was still a man of good standing, more so than his brother-in-law.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on December 08, 2019, 09:06:PM




He was still a man of good standing, more so than his brother-in-law.


I don't doubt it. His friends -those who are left and can still remember- have nothing but good to say of him, but he had NO influence on happenings in London. I don't quite know where RB fits into this scenario. He had nothing to do with London.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on December 08, 2019, 09:08:PM

I don't doubt it. His friends -those who are left and can still remember- have nothing but good to say of him, but he had NO influence on happenings in London. I don't quite know where RB fits into this scenario. He had nothing to do with London.




He'd have got to know that social services were on Sheila's case and would have halted it.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on December 08, 2019, 09:16:PM



He'd have got to know that social services were on Sheila's case and would have halted it.


OH right! So you claim to know, beyond a shadow of doubt, what Nevill would have done to get SS off!!! Sheila's case. Do you realize that you could be saying he may have actually contributed to their deaths? Apart from which, it was NONE of his concern. COLIN was the main carer for the twins. I reiterate, Nevill's jurisdiction probably didn't extend beyond Chelmsford, in fact it was the very edge of it as he could only refer cases to there which were beyond his scope.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on December 08, 2019, 09:17:PM

OH right! So you claim to know, beyond a shadow of doubt, what Nevill would have done to get SS off!!! Sheila's case. Do you realize that you could be saying he may have actually contributed to their deaths? Apart from which, it was NONE of his concern. COLIN was the main carer for the twins. I reiterate, Nevill's jurisdiction probably didn't extend beyond Chelmsford, in fact it was the very edge of it as he could only refer cases to there which were beyond his scope.

Sheila's health was Nevill's concern as she was divorced from Colin. I agree though that he wouldn't have had much influence in London.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on December 08, 2019, 09:27:PM

OH right! So you claim to know, beyond a shadow of doubt, what Nevill would have done to get SS off!!! Sheila's case. Do you realize that you could be saying he may have actually contributed to their deaths? Apart from which, it was NONE of his concern. COLIN was the main carer for the twins. I reiterate, Nevill's jurisdiction probably didn't extend beyond Chelmsford, in fact it was the very edge of it as he could only refer cases to there which were beyond his scope.






For all we know it could have been Colin who told social services that he was taking over care of the children and that said he'd no longer feel the need for their services.

But why was June asking around the village for someone to look after them while the twins were staying at the farm latterly, without involving social services ?   
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on December 08, 2019, 09:40:PM





For all we know it could have been Colin who told social services that he was taking over care of the children and that said he'd no longer feel the need for their services.

But why was June asking around the village for someone to look after them while the twins were staying at the farm latterly, without involving social services ?


Colin's supposed influence is a very different matter. Certainly, as their father, he'd have had the right, but I can't imagine he'd have dispensed with their services.

Is there any verification of what June was allegedly seeking in the way of local help? IF there is, I can only think it was wishful thinking. She had no authority to make decisions on the boys' behalf regarding their long term upbringing. She clearly didn't need help for the few remaining days -day!- of their visit. Re any involvement of SS in their alleged Essex care. I don't believe London SS would have been part of it.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Steve_uk on December 09, 2019, 08:18:PM

Colin's supposed influence is a very different matter. Certainly, as their father, he'd have had the right, but I can't imagine he'd have dispensed with their services.

Is there any verification of what June was allegedly seeking in the way of local help? IF there is, I can only think it was wishful thinking. She had no authority to make decisions on the boys' behalf regarding their long term upbringing. She clearly didn't need help for the few remaining days -day!- of their visit. Re any involvement of SS in their alleged Essex care. I don't believe London SS would have been part of it.
No and Colin wasn't the kind of father who could be bought off.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: guest7363 on December 23, 2019, 05:20:PM
I believe this has come up before some time ago but, the Anschutz being a semi-automatic delivered a new shell into the chamber after the previous bullet had fired. During this process the fired shell casing is ejected from the weapon from the right hand side and had Sheila killed herself 'both' should have been found on 'her' left hand side as she lay on her back. However, the casings related to Sheila, were found both on her left (close to her head - not immediately obvious) and to her right (some distance from her body). As seen in the following diagram labelled DRH1 and DRH 2

(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4470)

If Sheila shot herself, how did one of the casings end up on her right side?
Could it be that, When Fletcher tested the rifle it got stuck occasionally with a bullet getting fast in the breach,  with the breach pulled back he had to either flick it out manually or let it drop out, could this answer why the DHR/1 bullet was to the left of Sheila’s head, it got stuck and the killer either shook it out or flicked it out to that position?  Your thoughts NGB.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ngb1066 on December 23, 2019, 06:23:PM
Could it be that, When Fletcher tested the rifle it got stuck occasionally with a bullet getting fast in the breach,  with the breach pulled back he had to either flick it out manually or let it drop out, could this answer why the DHR/1 bullet was to the left of Sheila’s head, it got stuck and the killer either shook it out or flicked it out to that position?  Your thoughts NGB.

It is difficult to answer that RJ.  A semi automatic rifle can jam but that is usually where it has been used a lot without being cleaned and oiled, or if ammunition is used which is not really suited to the rifle (I do not think that could apply here), or if the rifle is damaged.  If a jam occurs and a spent cartridge case fails to be ejected from the breach the breach could be cleared in the way you suggest and the case would then obviously fall wherever it was dropped by the shooter.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: guest7363 on December 23, 2019, 06:25:PM
It is difficult to answer that RJ.  A semi automatic rifle can jam but that is usually where it has been used a lot without being cleaned and oiled, or if ammunition is used which is not really suited to the rifle (I do not think that could apply here), or if the rifle is damaged.  If a jam occurs and a spent cartridge case fails to be ejected from the breach the breach could be cleared in the way you suggest and the case would then obviously fall wherever it was dropped by the shooter.
Thanks NGB, I’m just puzzled by DHB/1 one bullet, I don’t think it would ping to the left that far?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on December 23, 2019, 06:26:PM
Thanks NGB, I’m just puzzled by DHB/1 one bullet, I don’t think it would ping to the left that far?

I agree - it wasn't a rubber bullet was it?  ;D ;D
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Steve_uk on December 23, 2019, 06:27:PM
I suppose the Raid Team could have trampled on some.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on December 23, 2019, 06:27:PM
It would if it wasn't a directional hit such as the second shot wasn't meant to be.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ngb1066 on December 23, 2019, 06:40:PM
Thanks NGB, I’m just puzzled by DHB/1 one bullet, I don’t think it would ping to the left that far?

I would not attach a great deal of significance to the precise location where each cartridge case was found.  If a shooter stands still and fires a whole magazine of shots the spent cartridge cases will be found over a fairly wide area.  Obviously the room where they are found is significant, but much less the area of floor within the room.  Cartridge cases can also bounce off other objects before reaching their final resting place.

 
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on December 23, 2019, 06:43:PM
I would not attach a great deal of significance to the precise location where each cartridge case was found.  If a shooter stands still and fires a whole magazine of shots the spent cartridge cases will be found over a fairly wide area.  Obviously the room where they are found is significant, but much less the area of floor within the room.  Cartridge cases can also bounce off other objects before reaching their final resting place.


Would they not require solid objects to bounce from, ie doors, wall, furniture, and would that not leave marks?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: guest7363 on December 23, 2019, 06:56:PM
I would not attach a great deal of significance to the precise location where each cartridge case was found.  If a shooter stands still and fires a whole magazine of shots the spent cartridge cases will be found over a fairly wide area.  Obviously the room where they are found is significant, but much less the area of floor within the room.  Cartridge cases can also bounce off other objects before reaching their final resting place.
Thanks NGB, I find it interesting because they are the two attributed to Sheila meaning the shooter if Sheila, she was in the same place position virtually for both shots?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on December 23, 2019, 07:08:PM
Can I just go off topic slightly one second. From a Bamber is guilty prospective here. Do you believe nevill awoke and went down to confront bamber? Or do you believe Jeremy managed to get upstairs first?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on December 23, 2019, 07:20:PM
Ngb, just for clarity can I post without being labelled by fellow posters a " scumbag or a " worthless pisshead " by sami, Steve et Al???
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on December 23, 2019, 07:32:PM
I suppose the Raid Team could have trampled on some.




Didn't one of them have one stuck between the cleats of the soles of his boots ?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Steve_uk on December 23, 2019, 07:35:PM



Didn't one of them have one stuck between the cleats of the soles of his boots ?
Yes wasn't that moved into the alcove between the twins' room and master bedroom?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: sami on December 23, 2019, 07:36:PM
Ngb, just for clarity can I post without being labelled by fellow posters a " scumbag or a " worthless pisshead " by sami, Steve et Al???
youve got the green light from me my old son,
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on December 23, 2019, 07:39:PM
Yes wasn't that moved into the alcove between the twins' room and master bedroom?





Obviously not the place/area it was trodden on then.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ngb1066 on December 23, 2019, 10:27:PM
Ngb, just for clarity can I post without being labelled by fellow posters a " scumbag or a " worthless pisshead " by sami, Steve et Al???

Yes you can.  A number of posts have been removed.  I do ask everyone to exercise a degree of restraint.

Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ngb1066 on December 23, 2019, 10:28:PM
I suppose the Raid Team could have trampled on some.

Yes it is possible.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ngb1066 on December 23, 2019, 10:29:PM

Would they not require solid objects to bounce from, ie doors, wall, furniture, and would that not leave marks?

Not necessarily.

The velocity of the ejected cartridge cases was quite low.

Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Steve_uk on December 24, 2019, 05:06:PM
Yes you can.  A number of posts have been removed.  I do ask everyone to exercise a degree of restraint.
As long as you're consistent I don't mind. If members refer to other members by some pejorative monicker and get away with it this sets a dangerous precedent which is difficult to surmount.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on December 24, 2019, 05:11:PM
As long as you're consistent I don't mind. If members refer to other members by some pejorative monicker and get away with it this sets a dangerous precedent which is difficult to surmount.
can I just say Steve. I was calling your Stephanie because it was a joke. And the female eqivilant of Stephen. It's called having a sense of humor. I'm sorry for having a laugh
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on December 24, 2019, 05:13:PM
can I just say Steve. I was calling you Stephanie because it was a joke. And the female eqivilant of Stephen. It's called having a sense of humor. I'm sorry for having a laugh
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ngb1066 on December 24, 2019, 05:15:PM
As long as you're consistent I don't mind. If members refer to other members by some pejorative monicker and get away with it this sets a dangerous precedent which is difficult to surmount.

I try to be consistent but it is difficult to know when to intervene sometimes.

Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on December 24, 2019, 05:17:PM
With respect, calling someone a " worthless alcoholic" owing to the fact you can't give a sensible reply is just as bad. Stephen
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: JackieD on December 24, 2019, 05:42:PM
Yes you can.  A number of posts have been removed.  I do ask everyone to exercise a degree of restraint.


That’s disgusting @ilovebooze

Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: sami on December 24, 2019, 07:03:PM

That’s disgusting @ilovebooze
when its directed at him its disgusting,but when he dishes it out its not too bad,anyway lets move on
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on December 24, 2019, 07:55:PM
when its directed at him its disgusting,but when he dishes it out its not too bad,anyway lets move on
I haven't dished it out what I haven't received back . Anyway back to the agenda. Can I politely ask, what to you is the compelling piece of evidence that confirms the guilt of Bamber to you....
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: David1819 on December 25, 2019, 01:20:PM
I haven't dished it out what I haven't received back . Anyway back to the agenda. Can I politely ask, what to you is the compelling piece of evidence that confirms the guilt of Bamber to you....

Another one who has no good reason  ;D
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: sami on December 25, 2019, 02:44:PM
Another one who has no good reason  ;D
i have more reasons than you think BOY who i discuss them with is fuck all to do with you 8) because your a clown.merry christmas
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ILB on December 26, 2019, 12:21:PM
i have more reasons than you think BOY who i discuss them with is fuck all to do with you 8) because your a clown.merry christmas
entirely up you Sami, I was just asking pal..
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jan on December 28, 2019, 05:51:PM
An interesting thread . For those who believe the pathology report and the fact she would be sitting with the gun facing up towards her to make the shots ( perfectly possible without the silencer ) can someone do me a sketch of what position jeremy would be in exactly to fire those shots at that angle with her sitting down? Taking into account she presumably was just compliant , not fighting at all .
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on December 28, 2019, 05:55:PM
She would have her head tipped back. In that case, I don't know why Jeremy shot her in the neck the first time rather than under her chin.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: sami on December 28, 2019, 05:57:PM
An interesting thread . For those who believe the pathology report and the fact she would be sitting with the gun facing up towards her to make the shots ( perfectly possible without the silencer ) can someone do me a sketch of what position jeremy would be in exactly to fire those shots at that angle with her sitting down? Taking into account she presumably was just compliant , not fighting at all .
cant do sketches but can tell you,he may also have been kneeling and after placing the rifle to the throat and LOWING the butt end he pulled the trigger,imo
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: sami on December 28, 2019, 05:59:PM
who knows something may have made sheila flinch hence jb could not make the kill shot first time
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jan on December 28, 2019, 06:04:PM
cant do sketches but can tell you,he may also have been kneeling and after placing the rifle to the throat and LOWING the butt end he pulled the trigger,imo
[/quote

So he is kneeling , placing the gun under her throat and has to get the angle and pull the trigger from that forced position and she knowing her children have been killed just compliantly does not try and pull the gun away push or do anything . I can see what you are saying but that also must have taken a huge amount of planning to get that exactly right because the moment that position had been changed or she had moved or retaliated his whole total plan would have been blown apart . If he is guilty his whole plan depended 100 % on her not  being shot earlier and agreeing to sit in that position for him .
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: sami on December 28, 2019, 06:17:PM
cant do sketches but can tell you,he may also have been kneeling and after placing the rifle to the throat and LOWING the butt end he pulled the trigger,imo
[/quote

So he is kneeling , placing the gun under her throat and has to get the angle and pull the trigger from that forced position and she knowing her children have been killed just compliantly does not try and pull the gun away push or do anything . I can see what you are saying but that also must have taken a huge amount of planning to get that exactly right because the moment that position had been changed or she had moved or retaliated his whole total plan would have been blown apart . If he is guilty his whole plan depended 100 % on her not  being shot earlier and agreeing to sit in that position for him .
but thats the point we dont know for sure if sheils knew her twins were dead,theres no proof she did.yes and in all likely hood the position did change thats why the first shot wasnt fatal ,i dont think he planned two shots for sheila only a fool would do that,but fate took over and he had to shoot her again he had no choice.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on December 28, 2019, 06:18:PM
cant do sketches but can tell you,he may also have been kneeling and after placing the rifle to the throat and LOWING the butt end he pulled the trigger,imo
[/quote

So he is kneeling , placing the gun under her throat and has to get the angle and pull the trigger from that forced position and she knowing her children have been killed just compliantly does not try and pull the gun away push or do anything . I can see what you are saying but that also must have taken a huge amount of planning to get that exactly right because the moment that position had been changed or she had moved or retaliated his whole total plan would have been blown apart . If he is guilty his whole plan depended 100 % on her not  being shot earlier and agreeing to sit in that position for him .


My post yesterday explained the difference between working out a plan in one's head and the reality of putting it into practice. In his head he'd have anticipated -and corrected- anything he THOUGHT might go wrong, but there's always something we don't plan for because we can't imagine it could happen.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on December 28, 2019, 06:22:PM
So Sheila knows that Jeremy has shot her children dead, and she just sits there? I thought she was supposed to be very fond of her children. What did she say? "Oh, OK Jeremy, no problem"?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: sami on December 28, 2019, 06:23:PM
he may have made threats to kill the twins if sheila did not obey his commands,and we all know a mother will do almost anything for their kids
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: guest7363 on December 28, 2019, 06:27:PM
he may have made threats to kill the twins if sheila did not obey his commands,and we all know a mother will do almost anything for their kids
No one knows the order of shooting Sami, it’s pure guess, I don’t think the twins would have been disturbed if they came after June and Sheila with that gun and a probable silencer fitted do you mate?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: sami on December 28, 2019, 06:27:PM
only a fool would tell sheila ive killed your sons,than expect her to cooperate.which jb was not
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: sami on December 28, 2019, 06:29:PM
No one knows the order of shooting Sami, it’s pure guess, I don’t think the twins would have been disturbed if they came after June and Sheila with that gun and a probable silencer fitted do you mate?
exactly rj
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jan on December 28, 2019, 06:35:PM
exactly rj

So you think that if her sons had still been alive she would not have fought even more ? Or another member of the family would not have attacked him while he was positioning her for the shot ?

And was not the evidence that she had never slept in her bed so she would have seen him enter the house ?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: sami on December 28, 2019, 06:41:PM
So you think that if her sons had still been alive she would not have fought even more ? Or another member of the family would not have attacked him while he was positioning her for the shot ?

And was not the evidence that she had never slept in her bed so she would have seen him enter the house ?
do you honestly think jb is not capable of making a bed,after all he had no trouble positioning the rifle on sheila,what other member of the family are you talking about,neville and june are dead the twins are asleep or dead  and sheila is staring down the end of a rifle,who does that leave to intervene
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on December 28, 2019, 06:43:PM
Hmmm, had Sheila's bed been slept in? There's some indication that she had been in it, but the cover at the bottom of the bed was surprisingly flat, and it looks like she pulled the bottom cover up towards the pillow when she got out of it.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on December 28, 2019, 06:43:PM
do you honestly think jb is not capable of making a bed,after all he had no trouble positioning the rifle on sheila,what other member of the family are you talking about,neville and june are dead the twins are asleep or dead  and sheila is staring down the end of a rifle,who does that leave to intervene

Why would he make Sheila's bed?  ???

Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: sami on December 28, 2019, 06:47:PM
Why would he make Sheila's bed?  ???
search me .jan said sheilas bed looks like its not been slept in ,so i answered.the point being no one knows how much scene setting was done by jb
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on December 28, 2019, 06:50:PM
Of course he didn't make her bed. The bed is neither dischevelled or neatly made - it's inbetween.

Why did Sheila pull the covers up if she got out of the bed?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: sami on December 28, 2019, 06:57:PM
Of course he didn't make her bed. The bed is neither dischevelled or neatly made - it's inbetween.

Why did Sheila pull the covers up if she got out of the bed?
did she tell you she did it,or could it have been jb ,no one knows
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on December 28, 2019, 06:58:PM
did she tell you she did it,or could it have been jb ,no one knows

Why would he do that?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: sami on December 28, 2019, 07:00:PM
Why would he do that?
how the fuck do you think i know why he would do that go and ask him :)) :))
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jan on December 28, 2019, 07:01:PM
I agree it would make no difference to jeremy whether she had slept in her bed or not? It does however indicate she probably for some reason could not sleep .
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: sami on December 28, 2019, 07:04:PM
I agree it would make no difference to jeremy whether she had slept in her bed or not? It does however indicate she probably for some reason could not sleep .
not really jb could have woken her from her sleep,its not impossible
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on December 28, 2019, 07:08:PM
how the fuck do you think i know why he would do that go and ask him :)) :))

Stop talking gibberish.  ::)
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: sami on December 28, 2019, 07:19:PM
Stop talking gibberish.  ::)
you stop talking shit,why this why that why the other :)) :)) :))
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: guest7363 on December 28, 2019, 07:21:PM
you stop talking shit,why this why that why the other :)) :)) :))
🙈🙈🙈
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: sami on December 28, 2019, 07:22:PM
Of course he didn't make her bed. The bed is neither dischevelled or neatly made - it's inbetween.

Why did Sheila pull the covers up if she got out of the bed?
you claim sheila didnt have blood on her hands
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on December 28, 2019, 07:23:PM
you stop talking shit,why this why that why the other :)) :)) :))

Troll.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on December 28, 2019, 07:23:PM
you claim sheila didnt have blood on her hands

No I didn't.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: sami on December 28, 2019, 07:24:PM
Troll.
:)) :)) :))crybaby
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on December 28, 2019, 07:26:PM
:)) :)) :))crybaby

Stop making stupid claims and then trolling when you're challenged on them.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: sami on December 28, 2019, 07:30:PM
Stop making stupid claims and then trolling when you're challenged on them.
your the one making foolish claims ,like the one about sheila putting the back of her fingers to the wound but not the back of the hand,maybe you need to learn a bit more about the case ,as sheila had blood stains on the BACK of her hand,something you said was too awkward :)) :)) :))
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: sami on December 28, 2019, 07:32:PM
you come on here thinking your some smart ass know it all,when your nothing in reality
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on December 28, 2019, 07:38:PM
your the one making foolish claims ,like the one about sheila putting the back of her fingers to the wound but not the back of the hand,maybe you need to learn a bit more about the case ,as sheila had blood stains on the BACK of her hand,something you said was too awkward :)) :)) :))

Do you not know the difference between the back of the fingers and the back of the hand? Try putting your right hand up to the right side of your neck. Try it different ways, and then accept that you have no idea what you're arguing about.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on December 28, 2019, 07:39:PM
you come on here thinking your some smart ass know it all,when your nothing in reality

I've been here longer than you, and clearly I have more sense than you.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: sami on December 28, 2019, 07:41:PM
I've been here longer than you, and clearly I have more sense than you.
its not awkward at all clearly you havnt got a clue :)) :))
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: sami on December 28, 2019, 07:44:PM
Do you not know the difference between the back of the fingers and the back of the hand? Try putting your right hand up to the right side of your neck. Try it different ways, and then accept that you have no idea what you're arguing about.
easily done
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on December 28, 2019, 07:44:PM
its not awkward at all clearly you havnt got a clue :)) :))

It is awkward. Nobody would put their whole hand in that position.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on December 28, 2019, 07:46:PM
Also, as she was apparently leaning slightly to her right, she could have put her left hand up to her neck, but apparently she didn't. I would have thought it would be instinctive to put one hand to where a bullet has entered.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: sami on December 28, 2019, 07:47:PM
It is awkward. Nobody would put their whole hand in that position.
why not,its not impossible and theres blood on the back of her hand,how do you think it got there
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: sami on December 28, 2019, 07:49:PM
Also, as she was apparently leaning slightly to her right, she could have put her left hand up to her neck, but apparently she didn't. I would have thought it would be instinctive to put one hand to where a bullet has entered.
leaning slightly to the right when,when she was shot or when she was found
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on December 28, 2019, 07:50:PM
why not,its not impossible and theres blood on the back of her hand,how do you think it got there

Nope. It didn't get there by her putting her hand to her neck. It would be too awkward.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on December 28, 2019, 07:50:PM
leaning slightly to the right when,when she was shot or when she was found

When she was shot - hence the blood went to her right.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: David1819 on December 28, 2019, 07:54:PM
Also, as she was apparently leaning slightly to her right, she could have put her left hand up to her neck, but apparently she didn't. I would have thought it would be instinctive to put one hand to where a bullet has entered.

Apparently getting shot does not hurt initially. So I would have though if you were trying to shoot and kill yourself it would be instinctive to pull the trigger again.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: sami on December 28, 2019, 07:58:PM
When she was shot - hence the blood went to her right.
yes its quite alot of blood so she must have been shoot upright or sitting up,but we cant be sure she was sitting on the floor or on the bed when first shot
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on December 28, 2019, 08:00:PM
Apparently getting shot does not hurt initially. So I would have though if you were trying to shoot and kill yourself it would be instinctive to pull the trigger again.

I meant if Jeremy shot her. Even if it didn't hurt, she would be aware that there was blood, and she would put her hand to her neck.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: susan on December 28, 2019, 08:02:PM
Kaldin it always looked to me that Sheila had laid on top of the bed just as I see it I could be so wrong of course
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: sami on December 28, 2019, 08:03:PM
Apparently getting shot does not hurt initially. So I would have though if you were trying to shoot and kill yourself it would be instinctive to pull the trigger again.
i think that first shot to the throat would bring on instant pain,the leg, arm, stomach, maybe not .but ive never had it done so its just my opinion
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on December 28, 2019, 08:03:PM
Kaldin it always looked to me that Sheila had laid on top of the bed just as I see it I could be so wrong of course

Wouldn't there have been blood on the bed, and how did she get on the floor?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: sami on December 28, 2019, 08:04:PM
Kaldin it always looked to me that Sheila had laid on top of the bed just as I see it I could be so wrong of course
lovely to see you posting susan :)
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on December 28, 2019, 08:05:PM
Ooooh, the lovely Susan. How nice to see you.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: sami on December 28, 2019, 08:10:PM
Wouldn't there have been blood on the bed, and how did she get on the floor?
maybe not had she been sat on the edge on nevilles side of the bed the shot could have made her fall to the floor or she could have been placed on the floor so the rifle could be positioned to show the suicide scene,but i dont think there would be any blood on that side of the bed most would have flowed down her nightie
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on December 28, 2019, 08:14:PM
maybe not had she been sat on the edge on nevilles side of the bed the shot could have made her fall to the floor or she could have been placed on the floor so the rifle could be positioned to show the suicide scene,but i dont think there would be any blood on that side of the bed most would have flowed down her nightie

If she had been sitting on Nevill's side of the bed, it would have been hard for Jeremy to shoot her in the right side of her neck. I can't see that she would fall into that position from the bed either - she's parallel to it. I also don't think she was placed on the floor as the blood on her face would have run in different directions more than it has.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: susan on December 28, 2019, 08:18:PM
Thank you sami such a lovely welcome back for me x
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: sami on December 28, 2019, 08:19:PM
If she had been sitting on Nevill's side of the bed, it would have been hard for Jeremy to shoot her in the right side of her neck. I can't see that she would fall into that position from the bed either - she's parallel to it. I also don't think she was placed on the floor as the blood on her face would have run in different directions more than it has.
hard but not impossible,its hard to say for sure
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: susan on December 28, 2019, 08:20:PM
Thank you dear lookout so nice to be back.  Thank you for the welcome x
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: sami on December 28, 2019, 08:22:PM
Thank you sami such a lovely welcome back for me x
your welcome susan,thats so sweet thats the first kiss ive had all christmas.x :)
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on December 28, 2019, 08:23:PM
hard but not impossible,its hard to say for sure

I would say it was impossible.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jan on December 28, 2019, 08:24:PM
If she was sat on the bed in theory it would have been easier for Jeremy to get in a position to shoot her because of th height factor but that would mean the body and probably the casings would have had to have been moved .so I am assuming the reports of her being found on the bed can be discounted.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: susan on December 28, 2019, 08:25:PM
Sorry Kaldin what I was meaning Sheila never went to bed proper that fateful night she lay on top of the bed before any shootings took place I always felt she was restless.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: sami on December 28, 2019, 08:25:PM
I would say it was impossible.
i would disagree and say its not
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: susan on December 28, 2019, 08:27:PM
Sorry to hear that Sami and yours is my first  x
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jan on December 28, 2019, 08:34:PM
Thank you sami such a lovely welcome back for me x

Hi susan we are both back like bad pennies 😊
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on December 28, 2019, 08:37:PM
Sorry Kaldin what I was meaning Sheila never went to bed proper that fateful night she lay on top of the bed before any shootings took place I always felt she was restless.

Oh I see! Apologies.

She could have. The top bedspread has slipped off the end of the bed, but it doesn't look like she was actually underneath it. There's an indent in the pillow.

Perhaps she was hot - there are an awful lot of bedclothes, but perhaps it was a cold night for August. I thought the same about the bedclothes on June and Nevill's bed.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on December 28, 2019, 08:38:PM
i would disagree and say its not

Then please explain how a person sitting on a bed could fall off and end up parallel with their legs straight out in front.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: susan on December 28, 2019, 08:45:PM
Kaldin I seem to remember reading AE was quite surprised that the other single bed in Sheila's room was made ready for somebody to sleep in it different theories were thrown around but I cannot remember them
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on December 28, 2019, 08:48:PM
Kaldin I seem to remember reading AE was quite surprised that the other single bed in Sheila's room was made ready for somebody to sleep in it different theories were thrown around but I cannot remember them

I don't know about that Susan. Perhaps the beds were kept ready for people - they seemed to have a lot of visitors. The Pargeters had been there shortly before the murders.

To me, Sheila's bed looks like it's been hastily made, probably by Sheila. She had been sleeping in it for a few days, so it's very possible she wasn't in or on her bed at all that night.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: guest7363 on December 28, 2019, 08:53:PM
i would disagree and say its not
Footie is on again Sami 👍👍 BT sport though this time, good game 😂
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: susan on December 28, 2019, 08:54:PM
Kaldin you may well be right but I did read where AE was really surprised that the second bed was made up and also am I recalling correctly that Ralph's slippers were at the side of that bed
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: sami on December 28, 2019, 08:55:PM
Then please explain how a person sitting on a bed could fall off and end up parallel with their legs straight out in front.
its simple,firstly you could never know how a body would fall when shot in the throat cause youve not tried or seen anyone try it,secondly even a child could work out that having fired the first shot and immobilised her someone could than place her in any position they want,but thats impossible in your mind
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: sami on December 28, 2019, 08:56:PM
Footie is on again Sami 👍👍 BT sport though this time, good game 😂
thanks rj,iam off :)
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: susan on December 28, 2019, 08:59:PM
Hi Jan

it is lovely to see you again.  It is so long since I posted I have forgot what my stance on the case is and it is impossible for me to debate as I am not sure what you are all talking about.  Hope all is well with you x
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on December 28, 2019, 09:05:PM
Kaldin you may well be right but I did read where AE was really surprised that the second bed was made up and also am I recalling correctly that Ralph's slippers were at the side of that bed

Ann said that she was surprised that the bed nearest to the door had not been slept in. I have no idea why she was surprised - who did she expect to have been sleeping in it?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jan on December 28, 2019, 09:14:PM
Hi Jan

it is lovely to see you again.  It is so long since I posted I have forgot what my stance on the case is and it is impossible for me to debate as I am not sure what you are all talking about.  Hope all is well with you x

Hopefully it will start to come back to you . Probably you will recognise the same old arguments going round in circles 😊
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: susan on December 28, 2019, 09:19:PM
Jan I only want to remember the nice posts in my lovely world x
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: susan on December 28, 2019, 09:22:PM
Kaldin I remember it was said that Sheila may have slept with June and Ralph was to sleep in the other bed in Sheila's room not sure if any of this is factual or just theories
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jan on December 28, 2019, 09:26:PM
Kaldin I remember it was said that Sheila may have slept with June and Ralph was to sleep in the other bed in Sheila's room not sure if any of this is factual or just theories

Never thought about that it would explain the slippers . I always remember the teddy on the main bed ??
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Kaldin on December 28, 2019, 09:31:PM
Kaldin I remember it was said that Sheila may have slept with June and Ralph was to sleep in the other bed in Sheila's room not sure if any of this is factual or just theories

I don't know about that Susan.  ???
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: guest7363 on December 28, 2019, 09:41:PM
thanks rj,iam off :)
Get in Sami 2 0 Rashford, that’s how I used to score em 😂😂😂
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: susan on December 28, 2019, 09:47:PM
Kaldin I am not sure about it either maybe we just talked about it ages ago but nothing to back it up as facts
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: susan on December 28, 2019, 09:51:PM
Jan I forgot about the Teddy it is so hard to try and work things out
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: David1819 on December 28, 2019, 10:14:PM
Jan I forgot about the Teddy it is so hard to try and work things out

https://metro.co.uk/2019/05/20/1-3-british-adults-still-sleeps-soft-toy-9607056/ (https://metro.co.uk/2019/05/20/1-3-british-adults-still-sleeps-soft-toy-9607056/)


Welcome back to the forum BTW  :)
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jan on December 28, 2019, 10:16:PM
https://metro.co.uk/2019/05/20/1-3-british-adults-still-sleeps-soft-toy-9607056/ (https://metro.co.uk/2019/05/20/1-3-british-adults-still-sleeps-soft-toy-9607056/)


Welcome back to the forum BTW  :)

Wow 1 in 3 . That’s a lot .
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on December 28, 2019, 10:18:PM
https://metro.co.uk/2019/05/20/1-3-british-adults-still-sleeps-soft-toy-9607056/ (https://metro.co.uk/2019/05/20/1-3-british-adults-still-sleeps-soft-toy-9607056/)


Welcome back to the forum BTW  :)





Unbelievable ! Some insecurity going on.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on December 28, 2019, 10:18:PM
Wow 1 in 3 . That’s a lot .

That's a modern day survey.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: susan on December 28, 2019, 10:19:PM
David thank you for the link I did not realise so many people slept with a soft toy.  Thank you for the welcome back I am starting to feel at home again x
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: sami on December 29, 2019, 11:25:AM
Get in Sami 2 0 Rashford, that’s how I used to score em 😂😂😂
i was quite good my self years ago in my teens  :)
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: notsure on December 29, 2019, 09:02:PM
Get in Sami 2 0 Rashford, that’s how I used to score em 😂😂😂

oh no this was my escapism from footie having been married to an ex pro for the last 32 years. i sit and get on here while he’s immersed  in sky sports!!!
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: sami on December 29, 2019, 09:06:PM
oh no this was my escapism from footie having been married to an ex pro for the last 32 years. i sit and get on here while he’s immersed  in sky sports!!!
sorry notsure,what team did play for
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: guest7363 on December 29, 2019, 09:07:PM
oh no this was my escapism from footie having been married to an ex pro for the last 32 years. i sit and get on here while he’s immersed  in sky sports!!!
😂😂😂 VAR is spoiling it now Notsure, I’m giving up 😂😂😂. Yes I remember your husband was ex pro, bet he doesn’t like VAR at moment
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: guest7363 on December 29, 2019, 09:10:PM
i was quite good my self years ago in my teens  :)
Not that long back then Sami 🙈🙈
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: sami on December 29, 2019, 09:11:PM
Not that long back then Sami 🙈🙈
:)) :))
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: notsure on December 29, 2019, 09:12:PM
😂😂😂 VAR is spoiling it now Notsure, I’m giving up 😂😂😂. Yes I remember your husband was ex pro, bet he doesn’t like VAR at moment

yes it is but i’m more interested in jbs situation. 😂😂😂
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: guest7363 on December 29, 2019, 09:13:PM
yes it is but i’m more interested in jbs situation. 😂😂😂
If only they had VAR then Sami 🙈
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: sami on December 29, 2019, 09:17:PM
If only they had VAR then Sami 🙈
if only :)) :))
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: guest7363 on December 29, 2019, 09:21:PM
if only :)) :))
Im out of discussion tonight mate, I’m on another case 👍
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: guest7363 on December 29, 2019, 09:26:PM
yes it is but i’m more interested in jbs situation. 😂😂😂
Ha Ha sorry Notsure I thought it was Sami then, I’m only on my phone and can’t see properly 😂😂
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: notsure on December 29, 2019, 09:29:PM
Ha Ha sorry Notsure I thought it was Sami then, I’m only on my phone and can’t see properly 😂😂

haha ditto, can’t see a bloomin thing! what’s the other case you’re looking at? there are so many interesting ones aren’t there
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: guest7363 on December 29, 2019, 09:36:PM
haha ditto, can’t see a bloomin thing! what’s the other case you’re looking at? there are so many interesting ones aren’t there
Its American Notsure,  Jim Melgar murder, it’s on podcast, kathrine Zelner has took it up, the lawyer for Steven Avery.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: notsure on December 29, 2019, 09:39:PM
Its American Notsure,  Jim Melgar murder, it’s on podcast, kathrine Zelner has took it up, the lawyer for Steven Avery.

oh ok i’ll have a look at it sometime.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: guest7363 on December 29, 2019, 09:44:PM
oh ok i’ll have a look at it sometime.
Its on truth & justice.  Another good one I listen to is Real Crime Profile 👍
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: notsure on December 29, 2019, 09:47:PM
thanks RJ

i’m done for tonight all the food and drink and visitors have done me in .... night
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: guest7363 on January 04, 2020, 09:25:AM
NGB, I don’t know if you can remember me picking up on the bullets DBH/1 and DBH/2 with one bullet to the left and one to the right and me saying a possible explanation for this could be the fact the rifle got jammed?   When tests were done at the Fingrinhoe range, Andrew Monday Junior Crown Counsel, picked up on the fact a shell was found were no shot had been fired?  Fletcher gave a theory that the rifle jammed and this was supported by his own tests at Huntington?    Fletcher who did the firing when questioned during the demonstration “What was the likely hood of the weapon jamming” to Monday’s astonishment the rifle promptly jammed.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: David1819 on January 04, 2020, 11:09:AM
NGB, I don’t know if you can remember me picking up on the bullets DBH/1 and DBH/2 with one bullet to the left and one to the right and me saying a possible explanation for this could be the fact the rifle got jammed?   When tests were done at the Fingrinhoe range, Andrew Monday Junior Crown Counsel, picked up on the fact a shell was found were no shot had been fired?  Fletcher gave a theory that the rifle jammed and this was supported by his own tests at Huntington?    Fletcher who did the firing when questioned during the demonstration “What was the likely hood of the weapon jamming” to Monday’s astonishment the rifle promptly jammed.

This shell was found a few steps down the landing.

I believe three of the shell casings from shots fired a Nevil bounced off the wall, while one went passed the door frame onto the landing area.

(http://i.imgur.com/CGCOvJs.gif)
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ngb1066 on January 04, 2020, 11:13:AM
NGB, I don’t know if you can remember me picking up on the bullets DBH/1 and DBH/2 with one bullet to the left and one to the right and me saying a possible explanation for this could be the fact the rifle got jammed?   When tests were done at the Fingrinhoe range, Andrew Monday Junior Crown Counsel, picked up on the fact a shell was found were no shot had been fired?  Fletcher gave a theory that the rifle jammed and this was supported by his own tests at Huntington?    Fletcher who did the firing when questioned during the demonstration “What was the likely hood of the weapon jamming” to Monday’s astonishment the rifle promptly jammed.

Yes, I remember you discussing the cartridge cases and their locations.  The rifle jamming and the breach being cleared manually could be an explanation for this, although even without jamming the cases can end up in different places following ejection during firing.

Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: David1819 on January 04, 2020, 11:41:AM
Yes, I remember you discussing the cartridge cases and their locations.  The rifle jamming and the breach being cleared manually could be an explanation for this, although even without jamming the cases can end up in different places following ejection during firing.

The jamming could be a result of Fletcher mishandling the weapon.

"LAWSON: May we perhaps dismiss from further consideration this aspect of the evidence. Ignoring your evidence that there might have been occasional malfunction in that sense with the breech, that was probably due was it not to the effect of dirt in the mechanism and/or damage caused to the gun by mis-handling.

A: Those are two of the most likely reasons, yes.

Q: I am reminded of this, is it right the gun was abused, not in a sinister sense, in the laboratory at Huntingdon?

A: Oh yes.

Q: This was part and parcel of the tests to which it was subjected?

A: Yes during testing of the weapon, to see whether in fact it would fire other than by pulling the trigger. I would drop the gun from a height to see if it could be jarred off. Accidental firing.
"
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: guest7363 on January 04, 2020, 11:55:AM
The jamming could be a result of Fletcher mishandling the weapon.

"LAWSON: May we perhaps dismiss from further consideration this aspect of the evidence. Ignoring your evidence that there might have been occasional malfunction in that sense with the breech, that was probably due was it not to the effect of dirt in the mechanism and/or damage caused to the gun by mis-handling.

A: Those are two of the most likely reasons, yes.

Q: I am reminded of this, is it right the gun was abused, not in a sinister sense, in the laboratory at Huntingdon?

A: Oh yes.

Q: This was part and parcel of the tests to which it was subjected?

A: Yes during testing of the weapon, to see whether in fact it would fire other than by pulling the trigger. I would drop the gun from a height to see if it could be jarred off. Accidental firing.
"
Yes, I’m out at moment but that was going to be my next post, also the fact it hadn’t been used for a while 🙈
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jan on January 04, 2020, 01:11:PM
This shell was found a few steps down the landing.

I believe three of the shell casings from shots fired a Nevil bounced off the wall, while one went passed the door frame onto the landing area.

(http://i.imgur.com/CGCOvJs.gif)

do the casings eject at enough velocity to mark something or are they ejecting as it practically falling out and they are lightweight so would not have marked the door frame ?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on January 04, 2020, 01:34:PM
The jamming could be a result of Fletcher mishandling the weapon.

"LAWSON: May we perhaps dismiss from further consideration this aspect of the evidence. Ignoring your evidence that there might have been occasional malfunction in that sense with the breech, that was probably due was it not to the effect of dirt in the mechanism and/or damage caused to the gun by mis-handling.

A: Those are two of the most likely reasons, yes.

Q: I am reminded of this, is it right the gun was abused, not in a sinister sense, in the laboratory at Huntingdon?

A: Oh yes.

Q: This was part and parcel of the tests to which it was subjected?

A: Yes during testing of the weapon, to see whether in fact it would fire other than by pulling the trigger. I would drop the gun from a height to see if it could be jarred off. Accidental firing.
"

Or Bamber battering Nevill with it.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on January 04, 2020, 01:36:PM
The only person who would have to batter Nevill to ensure he was no longer active was Sheila.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jan on January 04, 2020, 01:39:PM
Or Bamber battering Nevill with it.

you would think there would be more evidence on the rifle though?

and even then it would not prove who was holding it .

its not a huge or heavy weapon either .

Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on January 04, 2020, 01:45:PM
Fingerprints of an unknown male found on the rifle have faded into oblivion.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on January 04, 2020, 01:45:PM
you would think there would be more evidence on the rifle though?

and even then it would not prove who was holding it .

its not a huge or heavy weapon either .

Like what?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on January 04, 2020, 01:46:PM
Fingerprints of an unknown male found on the rifle have faded into oblivion.

Errrrm, how would they know the finger prints were 'male'? We have been here before Lookout.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on January 04, 2020, 01:50:PM
Errrrm, how would they know the finger prints were 'male'? We have been here before Lookout.






Don't ask me but they seemed to know to have mentioned it in the first place. They could have been Nevill's as he tried to grab the gun from Sheila ?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on January 04, 2020, 02:02:PM





Don't ask me but they seemed to know to have mentioned it in the first place. They could have been Nevill's as he tried to grab the gun from Sheila ?

Or from Jeremy.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on January 04, 2020, 02:06:PM
Or from Jeremy.






His were already noted from handling the rifle the previous night with the rabbits debacle.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jan on January 04, 2020, 02:07:PM
Like what?

more blood /skin/hair /

what do you normally get on a weapon used to "beat" someone with

more prints as one end of it was held tightly to grip it ?

Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on January 04, 2020, 02:10:PM





His were already noted from handling the rifle the previous night with the rabbits debacle.

You mentioned "an unknown male" suggesting Nevill as he tried to take the weapon from Sheila. Nevill attempting to take the same weapon from Jeremy doesn't alter his status as the potential "unknown male".
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on January 04, 2020, 02:14:PM
more blood /skin/hair /

what do you normally get on a weapon used to "beat" someone with

more prints as one end of it was held tightly to grip it ?





A lot of sweat.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: David1819 on January 04, 2020, 02:37:PM
do the casings eject at enough velocity to mark something or are they ejecting as it practically falling out and they are lightweight so would not have marked the door frame ?

The casings weigh around 0.6 grams once empty. I doubt they would leave any marks.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ngb1066 on January 04, 2020, 02:44:PM
do the casings eject at enough velocity to mark something or are they ejecting as it practically falling out and they are lightweight so would not have marked the door frame ?

They would be very unlikely to mark anything.

Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jan on January 04, 2020, 04:12:PM
thanks david and ngb

so they were lightweight and therefore could have bounced ricocheted off other objects quite easily then .


So them being on opposite sides of Sheilas body was of no real significance really .
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: ngb1066 on January 04, 2020, 07:05:PM


so they were lightweight and therefore could have bounced ricocheted off other objects quite easily then .


So them being on opposite sides of Sheilas body was of no real significance really .

Yes to both suggestions.

Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: guest7363 on January 04, 2020, 07:16:PM
Yes, I remember you discussing the cartridge cases and their locations.  The rifle jamming and the breach being cleared manually could be an explanation for this, although even without jamming the cases can end up in different places following ejection during firing.
Thanks NGB, it was just a coincidence I read it this morning, I used to pass nearby those ranges quite frequently and could hear the shots. 
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: guest7363 on January 04, 2020, 07:23:PM
Thanks NGB, it was just a coincidence I read it this morning, I used to pass nearby those ranges quite frequently and could hear the shots.
I suppose anything could have set the malfunction off that happened with the rifle after the murder?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on January 04, 2020, 07:29:PM
The way the rifle was handled I'm not surprised there'd have been a malfunction. It was used like a machine gun.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: guest7363 on January 04, 2020, 07:31:PM
The way the rifle was handled I'm not surprised there'd have been a malfunction. It was used like a machine gun.
Yes, who ever used it certainly knew what to do with it 👍
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on January 04, 2020, 07:34:PM
Yes, who ever used it certainly knew what to do with it 👍





You mean " didn't know what to do with it ", mis-handled as in a novice.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jane on January 04, 2020, 07:40:PM




You mean " didn't know what to do with it ", mis-handled as in a novice.


Hardly. All the bullets found their home.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: guest7363 on January 04, 2020, 07:52:PM




You mean " didn't know what to do with it ", mis-handled as in a novice.
Oh sorry Lookout, when you said machine gun I thought you meant rapid fire?
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: lookout on January 04, 2020, 08:05:PM
Oh sorry Lookout, when you said machine gun I thought you meant rapid fire?






I did mean just that RJ.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jan on January 05, 2020, 01:10:AM
Yes to both suggestions.
.

Do you know how it was suggested the rifle was used as a weapon ? By holding the barrel and using the stock end ?


Am I right that it’s not a heavy rifle ?

Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on January 05, 2020, 01:26:AM
.

Do you know how it was suggested the rifle was used as a weapon ? By holding the barrel and using the stock end ?


Am I right that it’s not a heavy rifle ?

If you got cracked over the head by it - I doubt it would tickle.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Jan on January 05, 2020, 02:07:AM
If you got cracked over the head by it - I doubt it would tickle.

Not really an amusing subject tbh.
Title: Re: Shell Casings Next To Sheila
Post by: Caroline on January 05, 2020, 02:21:AM
Not really an amusing subject tbh.

Who's amused? It wasn't made of balsa wood and Nevill was certainly battered with something - the rifle sock was broken, clearly he was beaten with the rifle,