Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: David1819 on August 20, 2019, 12:27:AM
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Maurice Drake in his summing up said -
"June Bamber appears to have been shot first in bed because of the bullet marks in the pillow. It seems she got out of the bed because of the blood pattern on the floor in her blood. Well Mr Arlidge puts in a speculation "Was she going round because she thought the bedroom telephone was still there?." Well, I would say - or was she going round because Sheila was dead on the floor there at that time? That is an equally credible speculation."
According to Drake June appears to have been shot first. Yet argues that June moved around the bed because Sheila may have already been lying there dead! How then can June have been shot first?
This "credible speculation" also implies the defendant is guilty (because Sheila has to die last for the defendant to be innocent).
I think we can all unanimously agree on the following speculation -
June got out of bed and moved towards the door on her right. Because she wanted to get away from the person standing by the door to her left that was trying to shoot and kill her.
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Maurice Drake in his summing up said -
"June Bamber appears to have been shot first in bed because of the bullet marks in the pillow. It seems she got out of the bed because of the blood pattern on the floor in her blood. Well Mr Arlidge puts in a speculation "Was she going round because she thought the bedroom telephone was still there?." Well, I would say - or was she going round because Sheila was dead on the floor there at that time? That is an equally credible speculation."
According to Drake June appears to have been shot first. Yet argues that June moved around the bed because Sheila may have already been lying there dead! How then can June have been shot first?
This "credible speculation" also implies the defendant is guilty (because Sheila has to die last for the defendant to be innocent).
I think we can all unanimously agree on the following speculation -
June got out of bed and moved towards the door on her right. Because she wanted to get away from the person standing by the door to her left that was trying to shoot and kill her.
NO! You're misinterpreting what was written. Deliberately? It's not claiming that June was the first person to be shot, it's claiming that she received her first shot(s) whilst she was still laying down.
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NO! You're misinterpreting what was written. Deliberately? It's not claiming that June was the first person to be shot, it's claiming that she received her first shot(s) whilst she was still laying down.
Well done! I didn't read that part properly :-[
Do you agree with my reason for why she moved?
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Well done! I didn't read that part properly :-[
Do you agree with my reason for why she moved?
Actually, this may be the first time that the opposing beliefs are in agreement. If Sheila had killed her family then committed suicide, it stand to reason she'd have been the last to die. If it had been set up to look as if Sheila had killed the family and committed suicide, the killer would have almost certainly have killed her last.
Re June's last movements. Unless there is credible evidence -I'm sure someone will tell me- of June's blood trail between her and Sheila -was she not shot in the legs? Might that have made difficult/impossible a walk of that distance?- it's perfectly reasonable to speculate that she may have been heading for the door to the landing.
I can't help but feel that something must have gone wrong with a planned scenario. Whilst I get that the suggestion of Sheila being the killer was thought to have been necessary, a bit more thought might have allowed her to die with her children and made her 'guilt' more convincing.
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Maurice Drake in his summing up said -
"June Bamber appears to have been shot first in bed because of the bullet marks in the pillow. It seems she got out of the bed because of the blood pattern on the floor in her blood. Well Mr Arlidge puts in a speculation "Was she going round because she thought the bedroom telephone was still there?." Well, I would say - or was she going round because Sheila was dead on the floor there at that time? That is an equally credible speculation."
According to Drake June appears to have been shot first. Yet argues that June moved around the bed because Sheila may have already been lying there dead! How then can June have been shot first?
This "credible speculation" also implies the defendant is guilty (because Sheila has to die last for the defendant to be innocent).
I think we can all unanimously agree on the following speculation -
June got out of bed and moved towards the door on her right. Because she wanted to get away from the person standing by the door to her left that was trying to shoot and kill her.
He said 'shot' NOT killed! Given that he wasn't there, he made a scenario - much like the rest of us. June had clearly been shot before moving around the bed because of the blood trial on the bedroom carpet!
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Actually, this may be the first time that the opposing beliefs are in agreement. If Sheila had killed her family then committed suicide, it stand to reason she'd have been the last to die. If it had been set up to look as if Sheila had killed the family and committed suicide, the killer would have almost certainly have killed her last.
Re June's last movements. Unless there is credible evidence -I'm sure someone will tell me- of June's blood trail between her and Sheila -was she not shot in the legs? Might that have made difficult/impossible a walk of that distance?- it's perfectly reasonable to speculate that she may have been heading for the door to the landing.
I can't help but feel that something must have gone wrong with a planned scenario. Whilst I get that the suggestion of Sheila being the killer was thought to have been necessary, a bit more thought might have allowed her to die with her children and made her 'guilt' more convincing.
June was shot once in the leg but she was heading the wrong way to the landing, unless she was trying to get there via the twins room. However, there is no way we can ever know what really took place and it will always be a best guess and that is very much subjective.
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Actually, this may be the first time that the opposing beliefs are in agreement. If Sheila had killed her family then committed suicide, it stand to reason she'd have been the last to die. If it had been set up to look as if Sheila had killed the family and committed suicide, the killer would have almost certainly have killed her last.
Re June's last movements. Unless there is credible evidence -I'm sure someone will tell me- of June's blood trail between her and Sheila -was she not shot in the legs? Might that have made difficult/impossible a walk of that distance?- it's perfectly reasonable to speculate that she may have been heading for the door to the landing.
I can't help but feel that something must have gone wrong with a planned scenario. Whilst I get that the suggestion of Sheila being the killer was thought to have been necessary, a bit more thought might have allowed her to die with her children and made her 'guilt' more convincing.
June was shot 5 times in bed. She then got out the bed and headed towards the door leading to the twins room. She then turned around and headed back towards the other door (where the shooter was)
My belief is she simply tried to get away from the shooter. And once she realised the shooter was gone she tried to go after the shooter (knowing the shooters identity). She then collapsed by the door.
The shooter returns later to inflict two fatal head shots.
As for Sheila needing to be with the twins, I cannot find anything to support the notion. Neither did the prosecution use her location as found as an argument for their case.
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June was shot 5 times in bed. She then got out the bed and headed towards the door leading to the twins room. She then turned around and headed back towards the other door (where the shooter was)
My belief is she simply tried to get away from the shooter. And once she realised the shooter was gone she tried to go after the shooter (knowing the shooters identity). She then collapsed by the door.
The shooter returns later to inflict two fatal head shots.
As for Sheila needing to be with the twins, I cannot find anything to support the notion. Neither did the prosecution use her location as found as an argument for their case.
Mmm, but it's speculation, isn't it? She had potential access to two doors. One in front of her, to the left of the end of the bed, the other to her right when she was laying in bed. If the killer returned to inflict the fatal wounds, to me, it makes it even less likely that Sheila was responsible. I suspect the only thing you'd need to support the notion that a loving mother would choose to die with her children rather than the mother who'd devalued her all her life, is the ability to think like a loving mother, especially one who's gone through hell to have them. I think Dr Ferguson supports her obvious love for her boys. Why would her final position have been of any interest to the prosecution? It was Jeremy who was on trial, not Sheila.
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Mmm, but it's speculation, isn't it? She had potential access to two doors. One in front of her, to the left of the end of the bed, the other to her right when she was laying in bed. If the killer returned to inflict the fatal wounds, to me, it makes it even less likely that Sheila was responsible. I suspect the only thing you'd need to support the notion that a loving mother would choose to die with her children rather than the mother who'd devalued her all her life, is the ability to think like a loving mother, especially one who's gone through hell to have them. I think Dr Ferguson supports her obvious love for her boys. Why would her final position have been of any interest to the prosecution? It was Jeremy who was on trial, not Sheila.
I agree Jane, why would she have shot herself 'there'? Someone who didn't understand relationships might not even think about position and where the person might choose to die if they shot themselves - such a person isn't able to relate to such things and has no empathy!
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I agree Jane, why would she have shot herself 'there'? Someone who didn't understand relationships might not even think about position and where the person might choose to die if they shot themselves - such a person isn't able to relate to such things and has no empathy!
Yes and he couldn't risk them waking up and running around, so in all likelihood they were shot first.
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Yes and he couldn't risk them waking up and running around, so in all likelihood they were shot first.
I agree Steve.
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Mmm, but it's speculation, isn't it? She had potential access to two doors. One in front of her, to the left of the end of the bed, the other to her right when she was laying in bed. If the killer returned to inflict the fatal wounds, to me, it makes it even less likely that Sheila was responsible. I suspect the only thing you'd need to support the notion that a loving mother would choose to die with her children rather than the mother who'd devalued her all her life, is the ability to think like a loving mother, especially one who's gone through hell to have them. I think Dr Ferguson supports her obvious love for her boys. Why would her final position have been of any interest to the prosecution? It was Jeremy who was on trial, not Sheila.
If Sheila being found in a room other than the twins is indicative of murder, then the prosecution would have it admitted into evidence.
From what I have read so far on suspicious or staged suicide's. There is no emphasis put on the location or the proximity of other deceased people at the scene.
The only way I can think of a room making a suicide suspicious is if someone is supposed to have killed themselves with carbon monoxide poisoning but the room they are found in has a fume extractor ventilation system running. :-\
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If Sheila being found in a room other than the twins is indicative murder, then the prosecution would have it admitted it into evidence.
From what I have read so far on suspicious or staged suicide's. There is no emphasis put on the location or the proximity of other deceased people at the scene.
The only way I can think of a room making a suicide suspicious is if someone is supposed to have killed themselves with carbon monoxide poisoning but the room they are found in has a fume extractor ventilation system running. :-\
I guess most people here (and elsewhere) agree with you? ::)
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If Sheila being found in a room other than the twins is indicative murder, then the prosecution would have it admitted it into evidence.
From what I have read so far on suspicious or staged suicide's. There is no emphasis put on the location or the proximity of other deceased people at the scene.
The only way I can think of a room making a suicide suspicious is if someone is supposed to have killed themselves with carbon monoxide poisoning but the room they are found in has a fume extractor ventilation system running. :-\
It sounds as if you're saying that finding a family shot to death and one member holding a gun, it wouldn't cross your mind that you were looking at murder/suicide. Dear me! Jeremy went to all that trouble setting the scene for nothing?
I'm really not sure what you're trying to lead us to draw from "If Sheila being found in a room other than the twins is indicative murder, the prosecution would have it admitted into evidence". The prosecution weren't prosecuting Sheila. They had 4 other bodies to reference. There was no need for them to claim that if Sheila had been the killer she'd have died with her children because they weren't claiming/hinting that she may have been responsible. Sheila was dispatched with the same bullets that killed her parents and children, the only difference being that she was killed in a way which would make it appear that she'd committed suicide, the gun laid across her for emphasis.
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A possible order of the bullets from Bamber is -
2 shots into the twins.
5 shots into June.
4 shots into Nevill.
Reload.
4 shots into Nevill.
6 shots into the twins.
1 shot into June.
Reload
1 shot into June
2 shots into Sheila.
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Julie said the twins were shot first but I don't believe he would fire 8 bullets into them. One bullet each would at the least negate them & probably kill them.
He returned to fire more bullets into the twins to make sure, after it took 15 bullets to kill June & Nevill. Firing more bullets into the twins also makes it seem like a crazy killer.
Julie also said Sheila was shot last which was his only option. Bamber had to take his time with Sheila to try to kill her with one bullet. He panicked after the first shot as Sheila was still breathing & everyone else needed several bullets. So fired a second shot.
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Lots of different possibilities for the order Bamber took.
He may have fired 8 bullets into the twins straight away. Then re loaded the rifle to 9 bullets prior to entering the main bedroom.
He may have shot June last with two shots, after realising she was also still breathing.
There may have been two re loads at the end. The first was for one bullet for Sheila. He then reloaded again for 3 bullets - for Sheila's 2nd shot & June's 6th & 7th.
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Lots of different possibilities for the order Bamber took.
He may have fired 8 bullets into the twins straight away. Then re loaded the rifle to 9 bullets prior to entering the main bedroom.
He may have shot June last with two shots, after realising she was also still breathing.
There may have been two re loads at the end. The first was for one bullet for Sheila. He then reloaded again for 3 bullets - for Sheila's 2nd shot & June's 6th & 7th.
The last two are not possible.
Had June been alive for a period of time after she fell on the floor. We would expect to see a lot more blood in that area. Once you are dead your blood pressure and circulation stops and it wont spurt out as much.
The bloodstains on Sheila show she was sitting up while both shots were fired. Hence it must have happened quickly. If she was shot once and then a killer reloads she would in the mean time have covered her neck with her hands and coughed up blood, creating a mess and smearing blood everywhere.
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Research is still on-going to this day on the psychological profile of a family annihilator which still remains to be a very complex one as there are no warning signs particularly as the Bamber family hadn't displayed anything untoward, keeping family problems and their lives in general very private thus adding to the shock of their sudden deaths.
This profile is very different to that of a serial killer/mass murderer or even a spree killer in that it proves difficult to predict and almost impossible to stop so therefore will continue to happen.
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The last two are not possible.
Had June been alive for a period of time after she fell on the floor. We would expect to see a lot more blood in that area. Once you are dead your blood pressure and circulation stops and it wont spurt out as much.
The bloodstains on Sheila show she was sitting up while both shots were fired. Hence it must have happened quickly. If she was shot once and then a killer reloads she would in the mean time have covered her neck with her hands and coughed up blood, creating a mess and smearing blood everywhere.
Alive or dead, June was on the floor for several minutes before Bamber's 6th & 7th shots into her.
Bamber was preoccupied with Nevill in the kitchen. Having the fight, re loading & shooting him again, putting him onto the coal scuttle & burning his back.
He may have automatically shot June twice more after entering the bedroom again & seeing she had moved from the bed, assuming she was still alive. With Nevill gone & June shot 5 times, he had time to make June's 6th & 7th shots much more lethal.
Sheila was knocked out but still breathing after the first shot. Bamber had no idea how long she would stay alive or when the police would force entry. So with no resistance from Sheila, made a more successful second shot.
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Alive or dead, June was on the floor for several minutes before Bamber's 6th & 7th shots into her.
Bamber was preoccupied with Nevill in the kitchen. Having the fight, re loading & shooting him again, putting him onto the coal scuttle & burning his back.
He may have automatically shot June twice more after entering the bedroom again & seeing she had moved from the bed, assuming she was still alive. With Nevill gone & June shot 5 times, he had time to make June's 6th & 7th shots much more lethal.
Sheila was knocked out but still breathing after the first shot. Bamber had no idea how long she would stay alive or when the police would force entry. So with no resistance from Sheila, made a more successful second shot.
So while Jeremy places Nevil by the AGA, removes the silencer, he then heats up the rifle barrel on the AGA to poke Nevils back. What is Sheila doing while all this takes place? Is she an accomplice?
How could he move Nevil to the AGA when the scratch marks you believe are authentic, indicate he died in that area? Why re-attach the silencer when there is only one other adult alive at the scene?
Why go through all this trouble of heating the gun to see if Nevill is still alive when you can just make sure he is dead with a headshot?
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So while Jeremy places Nevil by the AGA, removes the silencer, he then heats up the rifle barrel on the AGA to poke Nevils back. What is Sheila doing while all this takes place? Is she an accomplice?
How could he move Nevil to the AGA when the scratch marks you believe are authentic, indicate he died in that area? Why re-attach the silencer when there is only one other adult alive at the scene?
Why go through all this trouble of heating the gun to see if Nevill is still alive when you can just make sure he is dead with a headshot?
Sheila was asleep, as people are at that time. Behind walls and closed doors. And under sedation. There was no noise when Bamber shot the twins, June & Nevill upstairs. They were sleeping & Bamber used a silencer. The kitchen fight was brutal but over quickly, downstairs in a big house.
Thinking again Bamber may have lifted Nevill onto the coal scuttle and burned him after returning upstairs & his final upstairs shots into June & Sheila. Obviously he fought & shot Nevill another 4 times before returning upstairs.
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Of course there is a chance Sheila woke up mid massacre.
There was nothing she could do. By the time she would have got out of bed, June & the twins had been shot and were dead/immobilised & Nevill was downstairs, dead, or about to be dead.
Bamber was returning back upstairs with the rifle before Sheila could digest what was happening.
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Sheila was asleep, as people are at that time. Behind walls and closed doors. And under sedation. There was no noise when Bamber shot the twins, June & Nevill upstairs. They were sleeping & Bamber used a silencer. The kitchen fight was brutal but over quickly, downstairs in a big house.
Thinking again Bamber may have lifted Nevill onto the coal scuttle and burned him after returning upstairs & his final upstairs shots into June & Sheila. Obviously he fought & shot Nevill another 4 times before returning upstairs.
She was not sedated as you already know. How else did she get out of bed and to the main bedroom? How did she make her way upstairs to bed in the first place if she was "sedated". How was she seen out and about the very day before if she was "sedated" as you claim? ???
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She was not sedated as you already know. How else did she get out of bed and to the main bedroom? How did she make her way upstairs to bed in the first place if she was "sedated". How was she seen out and about the very day before if she was "sedated" as you claim? ???
148. Sheila Caffell, probably in a sedated state from her medication, was also shot in the bedroom.
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You know her medication zonked her out.
'How did she make her way upstairs to bed'? Walked, I guess. Her medication did not stop her walking. It would have helped her have a good nights sleep. Besides which you would expect her to be in a deep sleep at 1am.
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Did the prosecution ever argue that Sheila was too sedated to carry out the crime? No. Because there is no basis for such a claim.
Sheila was actually under medicated at the time. It has been alleged on here that her Haldol dose was too high to permit her commit the crime but that all went south when it became apparent that high Haldol doses can trigger serious violence.
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Did the prosecution ever argue that Sheila was too sedated to carry out the crime? No. Because there is no basis for such a claim.
Sheila was actually under medicated at the time. It has been alleged on here that her Haldol dose was too high to permit her commit the crime but that all went south when it became apparent that high Haldol doses can trigger serious violence.
Sheila had 15 ng/mL of haloperidol in her blood at the time of her death.
(https://s8.postimg.cc/48pic1zed/hal2.png)
According to a 1992 study "Haloperidol Blood Levels and Clinical Effects" They consider Haloperidol blood levels as follows -
low (2 to 13 ng/mL), medium (13.1 to 24 ng/mL), or high (24.1 to 35 ng/mL).
According to a 1980s study, heavy sedation is associated with levels in excess of 50ng/mL
(https://s8.postimg.cc/5nr30sfx1/hal3.png)
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Did the prosecution ever argue that Sheila was too sedated to carry out the crime? No. Because there is no basis for such a claim.
Sheila was actually under medicated at the time. It has been alleged on here that her Haldol dose was too high to permit her commit the crime but that all went south when it became apparent that high Haldol doses can trigger serious violence.
Was it ever the prosecution's plan to pitch brother against sister.? I don't think the plan was to claim Sheila couldn't have done it because................ I don't believe It's "because there is no basis for such a claim" that it was omitted. Her medication -and the effects it may or not have had on her- continues to be a contentious issue. The effect it 'can' have not necessarily being the effects it DOES have.
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Was it ever the prosecution's plan to pitch brother against sister.? I don't think the plan was to claim Sheila couldn't have done it because................ I don't believe It's "because there is no basis for such a claim" that it was omitted. Her medication -and the effects it may or not have had on her- continues to be a contentious issue. The effect it 'can' have not necessarily being the effects it DOES have.
The judges summing up seems to indicate that -
"On the facts of this case, the killer was either Sheila or Jeremy Bamber. And therefore it follows that if you are sure that Sheila did not carry out the killings, it also follows that you must be sure the defendant did so”
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She was not sedated as you already know. How else did she get out of bed and to the main bedroom? How did she make her way upstairs to bed in the first place if she was "sedated". How was she seen out and about the very day before if she was "sedated" as you claim? ???
There are levels of sedation and haloperidol is used for this purpose BUT the patient still needs to be able to function to a basic level. You have no idea what the effects of this drug are and you're frankly sounding desperate.
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Not sure who would have woken Sheila -
Bamber. A silent WHF entry & shots with the silencer attached.
The twins. Shot while asleep.
June. Shot while asleep.
Nevill. Shot in the bedroom and went straight downstairs.
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There is a slim chance the kitchen fight noise travelled upatairs through shut doors & walls and woke a sleeping Sheila. If that motivated her enough to get out of bed, it would not be long before Bamber returned upstairs.
Bamber had just had a brutal fight with Nevill. An awake Sheila was not going to stand in his way.
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Not sure who would have woken Sheila -
Bamber. A silent WHF entry & shots with the silencer attached.
The twins. Shot while asleep.
June. Shot while asleep.
Nevill. Shot in the bedroom and went straight downstairs.
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There is a slim chance the kitchen fight noise travelled upatairs through shut doors & walls and woke a sleeping Sheila. If that motivated her enough to get out of bed, it would not be long before Bamber returned upstairs.
Bamber had just had a brutal fight with Nevill. An awake Sheila was not going to stand in his way.
The silencer did not make much difference to the noise of the shots.
"The reconstruction was held on an Army range after the court took a 28-mile drive in a police escorted convoy so that firearms expert Malcolm Fletcher could demonstrate the gun. The Chelmsford Crown Court jury of seven men and five women had asked to hear the sound of shots fired from the semi-automatic weapon. Mr Fletcher fired the un-silenced rifle five times into a huge block of soap which absorbed the impact of the bullets. Then he fired four times with the silencer in place. There appeared to be very little difference."
Your version of events has Bamber shooting 8 or 9 times with June screaming. This is taking place literally 10 feet from Sheila’s bedroom door across the landing.
Who sleeps through that?
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The silencer did not make much difference to the noise of the shots.
"The reconstruction was held on an Army range after the court took a 28-mile drive in a police escorted convoy so that firearms expert Malcolm Fletcher could demonstrate the gun. The Chelmsford Crown Court jury of seven men and five women had asked to hear the sound of shots fired from the semi-automatic weapon. Mr Fletcher fired the un-silenced rifle five times into a huge block of soap which absorbed the impact of the bullets. Then he fired four times with the silencer in place. There appeared to be very little difference."
Your version of events has Bamber shooting 8 or 9 times with June screaming. This is taking place literally 10 feet from Sheila’s bedroom door across the landing.
Who sleeps through that?
How could June scream? She was shot 5 times while sleeping. She won't scream and crawl at the same time.
The rifle fired with the silencer won't wake people asleep in other rooms.
The very slim chance of Sheila being woken & getting out of bed due to the downstairs kitchen fight, was not going to disrupt a returning upstairs Bamber. He had already shot 4 people & had a brutal fight.
Sheila still asleep & in bed or awake and up. Makes no difference for Bamber. He was not going to stop half way through.
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How could June scream? She was shot 5 times while sleeping. She won't scream and crawl at the same time.
The rifle fired with the silencer won't wake people asleep in other rooms.
The very slim chance of Sheila being woken & getting out of bed due to the downstairs kitchen fight, was not going to disrupt a returning upstairs Bamber. He had already shot 4 people & had a brutal fight.
Sheila still asleep & in bed or awake and up. Makes no difference for Bamber. He was not going to stop half way through.
She was shot five times while she was in bed. She then got out the bed and headed towards the door to the spare room (since the shooter was at the door leading to the hallway) She then headed back to the other door once she realised the shooter was no longer there.
This means June was alive, thinking and moving for about 10 seconds. No way she would not scream.
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She was shot five times while she was in bed. She then got out the bed and headed towards the door to the spare room (since the shooter was at the door leading to the hallway) She then headed back to the other door once she realised the shooter was no longer there.
This means June was alive, thinking and moving for about 10 seconds. No way she would not scream.
If someone came into my room in the middle of the night and shot me five times and while doing so was
deliberately missing my vital organs to make it look like a crazy and uncoordinated person was doing it. I would freaking scream also.
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If someone came into my room in the middle of the night and shot me five times and while doing so was
deliberately missing my vital organs to make it look like a crazy and uncoordinated person was doing it. I would freaking scream also.
Well you believe a shot 5 times while asleep June, would simultaneously scream and crawl. I don't.
No guarantee a scream from a nearly dead woman would wake an asleep Sheila in another room. But as I said, an asleep/in bed or awake/up Sheila would make no difference to Bamber.
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Well you believe a shot 5 times while asleep June, would simultaneously scream and crawl. I don't.
Its June Bambers blood that was found in a trail going from one end of the room to the other. This trail of blood ends at June Bamber's body. From the crime scene photos you can see she died with her eyes wide open shocked and terrified.
This is not a silent event.
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Its June Bambers blood that was found in a trail going from one end of the room to the other. This trail of blood ends at June Bamber's body. From the crime scene photos you can see she died with her eyes wide open shocked and terrified.
This is not a silent event.
Because she had looked into the eyes of her own son ending her life!
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Its June Bambers blood that was found in a trail going from one end of the room to the other. This trail of blood ends at June Bamber's body. From the crime scene photos you can see she died with her eyes wide open shocked and terrified.
This is not a silent event.
Can you provide the photo of a dead June. There is nothing in the 'Case related photo's thread'.
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If Sheila was in the bedroom opposite the main bedroom, there is no way she would hear a scream from a 5 times shot woman. Let alone wake up from one.
Any scream would have to travel across June's bedroom, through a wall, across a corridor and through another wall. Besides which June had been shot in the neck so not in the best condition to scream.
Not that an awake/up or asleep/in bed Sheila would make any difference to Bamber.
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Any scream would have to travel across June's bedroom, through a wall, across a corridor and through another wall. Besides which June had been shot in the neck so not in the best condition to scream.
No. Junes bedroom door was open since the killer was standing there. Across the landing by about 10 ft is the door to Sheila's room. A door that you don't even know was shut. But I will be generous and lets assume it was shut. The sound waves from the screaming and shooting only have to travel through one door across the landing.
June was not shot in the neck, she was shot in the collar bone area.
Not that an awake/up or asleep/in bed Sheila would make any difference to Bamber.
Then why insist she was asleep in the first place?
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No. Junes bedroom door was open since the killer was standing there. Across the landing by about 10 ft is the door to Sheila's room. A door that you don't even know was shut. But I will be generous and lets assume it was shut. The sound waves from the screaming and shooting only have to travel through one door across the landing.
June was not shot in the neck, she was shot in the collar bone area.
Then why insist she was asleep in the first place?
Bamber was standing over an asleep June & the bed when shooting her.
If June started screaming while still in bed, it would have to travel across the bedroom, through the door entrance (if open), across the corridor & through another wall.
If she started screaming when crawling, she was basically screaming into the floor. Again the scream would have to travel a long way. Through walls, doors & across corridors.
Either way, a badly injured June screaming is not exactly an alarm clock in a sleeping Sheila's ear.
You asked me what Sheila was doing while Bamber was committing the massacre. I said sleeping. It is better to deal in facts. There was a kitchen fight, so a very slim chance this noise travelled a long way upstairs through walls & woke Sheila. Not that it would deter Bamber.
Can you provide the photo of June.
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43.
Mrs Bamber was bare footed and dressed in a nightdress. She had received seven gunshot wounds, of which one to her forehead and one to the right side of the head would have caused death very quickly.
She also suffered shots to the right side of the lower part of her neck, the right forearm, two injuries to the right side of the chest and to the right knee. There was a great deal of blood on her body and clothing and from its pattern, it appeared that at some stage of the attack she had been in an upright position
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If she started screaming when crawling, she was basically screaming into the floor. Again the scream would have to travel a long way. Through walls, doors & across corridors.
How many "walls, doors & corridors" are between the doorway to the main bedroom and Sheila's bedroom? There is a door that you don't even know was shut. That's is not going to muffle the sound of what transpired 10 feet away.
(https://i.ibb.co/V29LRth/1stfloor.png)
PS: There should be a photo of June in the archive/library
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How many "walls, doors & corridors" are between the doorway to the main bedroom and Sheila's bedroom? There is a door that you don't even know was shut. That's is not going to muffle the sound of what transpired 10 feet away.
(https://i.ibb.co/V29LRth/1stfloor.png)
PS: There should be a photo of June in the archive/library
There are two doors, two walls, one corridor & several yards between Sheila & June's possible scream after being shot 5 times. A big house like that the doors & walls will be thick.
As said, it makes no difference whether Sheila woke during the kitchen fight or not. There was nothing she could do.
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I wondered when we'd be the recipient of another of David's internet memes, this one being slightly more utilitarian than all others he has furnished us with heretofore. He builds premise upon premise (we have to ignore his misapprehension of the word "first" in post 1, we have to accept Sheila was on trial, we must trust June was screaming) and I now look forward to the latest contortion to help get child killer Jeremy Bamber off..
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I wondered when we'd be the recipient of another of David's internet memes, this one being slightly more utilitarian than all others he has furnished us with heretofore. He builds premise upon premise (we have to ignore his misapprehension of the word "first" in post 1, we have to accept Sheila was on trial, we must trust June was screaming) and I now look forward to the latest contortion to help get child killer Jeremy Bamber off..
But Steve, didn't you know that there are 'many other members' who agree with David? ;D ;D ;D
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The last two are not possible.
Had June been alive for a period of time after she fell on the floor. We would expect to see a lot more blood in that area. Once you are dead your blood pressure and circulation stops and it wont spurt out as much.
The bloodstains on Sheila show she was sitting up while both shots were fired. Hence it must have happened quickly. If she was shot once and then a killer reloads she would in the mean time have covered her neck with her hands and coughed up blood, creating a mess and smearing blood everywhere.
You are ignoring the opinion of Dr Peter Vanezis who said that there must have been a significant time interval between the two shots to Sheila. He based that view on the large amount of haemorrhaging, which enabled him to infer that the lower wound must have been inflicted first, because the second, upper wound would have been instantly fatal, stopping the circulation of the blood.
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I wondered when we'd be the recipient of another of David's internet memes, this one being slightly more utilitarian than all others he has furnished us with heretofore. He builds premise upon premise (we have to ignore his misapprehension of the word "first" in post 1, we have to accept Sheila was on trial, we must trust June was screaming) and I now look forward to the latest contortion to help get child killer Jeremy Bamber off..
How is a 3d graphic of the crime scene a "meme"?
How would you expect someone to react if they got shot five times in the middle of night and did not die instantly?
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You are ignoring the opinion of Dr Peter Vanezis who said that there must have been a significant time interval between the two shots to Sheila. He based that view on the large amount of haemorrhaging, which enabled him to infer that the lower wound must have been inflicted first, because the second, upper wound would have been instantly fatal, stopping the circulation of the blood.
This is what he said.
(https://i.ibb.co/VN1DbL1/vt1986.png)
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You are ignoring the opinion of Dr Peter Vanezis who said that there must have been a significant time interval between the two shots to Sheila. He based that view on the large amount of haemorrhaging, which enabled him to infer that the lower wound must have been inflicted first, because the second, upper wound would have been instantly fatal, stopping the circulation of the blood.
He said nothing of the kind. All he stated was there was enough time for there to have been a build up of blood in the neck area. He told author Carol Ann Lee in 2014 that she hadn't got up from her position at all.
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How is a 3d graphic of the crime scene a "meme"?
How would you expect someone to react if they got shot five times in the middle of night and did not die instantly?
You don't always emit a scream even under the most harrowing of circumstances. It's an educated guess at best.
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You don't always emit a scream even under the most harrowing of circumstances. It's an educated guess at best.
Its common sense at best actually.
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Its common sense at best actually.
She'd been a member of the SOE during the war and had been trained to be calm under pressure.
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She'd been a member of the SOE during the war and had been trained to be calm under pressure.
(https://i.ibb.co/7rFXk6Q/1531011138laughing-emoji-png-1.png)
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She may have been stunned facing the hale of bullets and was trying to hold in the pain. You have no firm basis whatsoever for your train of thought that June was wailing loud enough to alert other members of the household.
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She may have been stunned facing the hale of bullets and was trying to hold in the pain. You have no firm basis whatsoever for your train of thought that June was wailing loud enough to alert other members of the household.
No firm basis eh? Well lets see, Someone gets shot five times in the middle of the night they scream. Its a survival instinct to alert others for help.
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She may have been stunned facing the hale of bullets and was trying to hold in the pain. You have no firm basis whatsoever for your train of thought that June was wailing loud enough to alert other members of the household.
Never seen anyone scream when shot in films. Man or woman. If still alive they are usually in shock, in terrible pain and thinking about what to do next.
June would not have screamed while being shot. She was asleep. While Bamber was downstairs June woke from the pain and crawled a few feet. In shock, extreme pain and with no strenght, not sure she would start screaming.
But appreciate Sheila waking from the downstairs fight is very unlikely, so it has to be scream from a woman in another room shot 5 times.
Some supporters believe Sheila waking & getting out of bed mid massacre would somehow be a problem for Bamber.
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Some supporters believe Sheila getting out of bed mid massacre would somehow be a problem for Bamber.
Sheila waking up and escaping out the house (with or without the twins) is indeed a problem.
Its not just supporters that realise that is a problem. Where do you think the concept of Sheila being the accomplice came from?
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Sheila waking up and escaping out the house (with or without the twins) is indeed a problem.
Its not just supporters that realise that is a problem. Where do you think the concept of Sheila being the accomplice came from?
Yes Sheila escaping out of the house would certainly be a problem for Bamber.
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No firm basis eh? Well lets see, Someone gets shot five times in the middle of the night they scream. Its a survival instinct to alert others for help.
Whilst screams MAY have been the order of the day -as in calling for her husband or daughter?- prior to being shot if she'd seen it coming. I'd have thought guttural grunts/groans/whimpers of pain might have been more likely afterwards.
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Remind me to write the next book entitled " Silent Night "----complete with a Basenji dog !
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You don't always emit a scream even under the most harrowing of circumstances. It's an educated guess at best.
I agree Steve, pointless debating something which we can't know happened. I'm sure there are 'many other's' here though who agree with David ::)
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Yes Sheila escaping out of the house would certainly be a problem for Bamber.
Except that she was sedated and most likely harder to wake. Then again, even if she did, how far could she get before he caught her?
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I agree Steve, pointless debating something which we can't know happened. I'm sure there are 'many other's' here though who agree with David ::)
I only agree with myself ;D ;D ;D
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Except that she was sedated and most likely harder to wake. Then again, even if she did, how far could she get before he caught her?
Well, if we go for the alleged ungainly gait in the chicken coop(?) where she could hardly put one foot in front of the other, not very far..................however, if we choose the rabid run and insane screams she allegedly fled the monastery at Tolleshunt Knights, it would have taken an Olympic athlete to catch her!!!!
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Well, if we go for the alleged ungainly gait in the chicken coop(?) where she could hardly put one foot in front of the other, not very far..................however, if we choose the rabid run and insane screams she allegedly fled the monastery at Tolleshunt Knights, it would have taken an Olympic athlete to catch her!!!!
If she can wipe her own arse, then she can run out a door. It’s not exactly difficult. 🙄
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If she can wipe her own arse, then she can run out a door. It’s not exactly difficult. 🙄
That particular wild and sweeping statement MAY qualify as being THE most stupid thing you've ever typed.
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That particular wild and sweeping statement MAY qualify as being THE most stupid thing you've ever typed.
Actually the most stupid thing I ever typed was that time when I typed out a CV for myself and forgot to put any contact details on it. Thus no one who read it could have contacted me. ;D ;D ;D
Anyway, if she can walk into the house, go upstairs and into her bedroom. She is then able to leave the bedroom go back downstairs and out the door that she came in. There is no question about it
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Except that she was sedated and most likely harder to wake. Then again, even if she did, how far could she get before he caught her?
Agree with both you and David.
It would be a problem if Sheila escaped.
However there was as much chance of Sheila escaping as June waking Sheila with a scream.
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Agree with both you and David.
It would be a problem if Sheila escaped.
However there was as much chance of Sheila escaping as June waking Sheila with a scream.
I believe the events on the landing transpired as follows.
1: Nevill calls Jeremy for help from the downstairs kitchen.
2: Sheila enters the main bedroom and begins fireing the five non fatal shots at June Bamber.
3: Nevill abruptly ends the conversation on the phone and runs upstairs.
4: After fireing five shots into June. Sheila realises Nevile is on his way up.
5: Sheila then pivots herself to aim the gun towards the stairs.
6: June then gets out of bed to try and escape via the box room.
7: Sheila then fires the last four shots in the magazine at Nevill.
8: Nevill now injured retreats back to the kitchen and Sheila goes after him.
9: June is now on the other end of the bedroom a few feet from the box room.
10: With Sheila's attention turned to Nevill. June decides to go after her to try and help Nevill.
11: June collapses in shock and dies when she gets to the hallway door.
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I believe the events on the landing transpired as follows.
1: Nevill calls Jeremy for help from the downstairs kitchen.
2: Sheila enters the main bedroom and begins fireing the five non fatal shots at June Bamber.
3: Nevill abruptly ends the conversation on the phone and runs upstairs.
4: After fireing five shots into June. Sheila realises Nevile is on his way up.
5: Sheila then pivots herself to aim the gun towards the stairs.
6: June then gets out of bed to try and escape via the box room.
7: Sheila then fires the last four shots in the magazine at Nevill.
8: Nevill now injured retreats back to the kitchen and Sheila goes after him.
9: June is now on the other end of the bedroom a few feet from the box room.
10: With Sheila's attention turned to Nevill. June decides to go after her to try and help Nevill.
11: June collapses in shock and dies when she gets to the hallway door.
12. The tooth fairy tiptoed into Daniel and Nicholas's room and left a shiny silver sixpence.
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I believe the events on the landing transpired as follows.
1: Nevill calls Jeremy for help from the downstairs kitchen.
2: Sheila enters the main bedroom and begins fireing the five non fatal shots at June Bamber.
3: Nevill abruptly ends the conversation on the phone and runs upstairs.
4: After fireing five shots into June. Sheila realises Nevile is on his way up.
5: Sheila then pivots herself to aim the gun towards the stairs.
6: June then gets out of bed to try and escape via the box room.
7: Sheila then fires the last four shots in the magazine at Nevill.
8: Nevill now injured retreats back to the kitchen and Sheila goes after him.
9: June is now on the other end of the bedroom a few feet from the box room.
10: With Sheila's attention turned to Nevill. June decides to go after her to try and help Nevill.
11: June collapses in shock and dies when she gets to the hallway door.
Bit of a change of direction.
Nevill would not stand for any nonsense, such as Sheila bare footed in a nightie holding a rifle used for shooting vermin. He will quickly disarm her.
Both he and Jeremy had another busy day on the farm in a few hours & needed a good nights sleep.
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I believe the events on the landing transpired as follows.
1: Nevill calls Jeremy for help from the downstairs kitchen.
2: Sheila enters the main bedroom and begins fireing the five non fatal shots at June Bamber.
3: Nevill abruptly ends the conversation on the phone and runs upstairs.
4: After fireing five shots into June. Sheila realises Nevile is on his way up.
5: Sheila then pivots herself to aim the gun towards the stairs.
6: June then gets out of bed to try and escape via the box room.
7: Sheila then fires the last four shots in the magazine at Nevill.
8: Nevill now injured retreats back to the kitchen and Sheila goes after him.
9: June is now on the other end of the bedroom a few feet from the box room.
10: With Sheila's attention turned to Nevill. June decides to go after her to try and help Nevill.
11: June collapses in shock and dies when she gets to the hallway door.
June died of shock (that's a new one)? Hmmm? So not from the shot between her eyes then? ::)
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I believe the events on the landing transpired as follows.
1: Nevill calls Jeremy for help from the downstairs kitchen.
2: Sheila enters the main bedroom and begins fireing the five non fatal shots at June Bamber.
3: Nevill abruptly ends the conversation on the phone and runs upstairs.
4: After fireing five shots into June. Sheila realises Nevile is on his way up.
5: Sheila then pivots herself to aim the gun towards the stairs.
6: June then gets out of bed to try and escape via the box room.
7: Sheila then fires the last four shots in the magazine at Nevill.
8: Nevill now injured retreats back to the kitchen and Sheila goes after him.
9: June is now on the other end of the bedroom a few feet from the box room.
10: With Sheila's attention turned to Nevill. June decides to go after her to try and help Nevill.
11: June collapses in shock and dies when she gets to the hallway door.
Sheila pivots?!!!!!!!!!!
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Sheila pivots?!!!!!!!!!!
;D ;D
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This is what he said.
(https://i.ibb.co/VN1DbL1/vt1986.png)
Like I said, "enough time" obviously means more than a few seconds. He meant he couldn't say how long. It refutes the opinion that there was only a few seconds between the two shots. That's a deduction not just an off hand sort of opinion.
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Like I said, "enough time" obviously means more than a few seconds. He meant he couldn't say how long. It refutes the opinion that there was only a few seconds between the two shots. That's a deduction not just an off hand sort of opinion.
Rather disingenuous, since half her jaw was blown off.