Jeremy Bamber Forum

JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: ILB on November 10, 2019, 07:24:PM

Title: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: ILB on November 10, 2019, 07:24:PM
Does anybody have the arlidge, Bamber trial transcript??
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Steve_uk on November 10, 2019, 07:39:PM
Does anybody have the arlidge, Bamber trial transcript??
No there's no full trial transcript, but Roger Wilkes' book Blood Relations covers it and it's a good read.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: ILB on November 10, 2019, 08:17:PM
No there's no full trial transcript, but Roger Wilkes' book Blood Relations covers it and it's a good read.
does it just cover the famous point where arlidge accuses Jeremy of lying where he famously responds " that is what you have got to establish" or does it go more in depth ??
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Steve_uk on November 10, 2019, 08:38:PM
does it just cover the famous point where arlidge accuses Jeremy of lying where he famously responds " that is what you have got to establish" or does it go more in depth ??
Well it's a summary but a detailed one (Chapters 27-35). In total Jeremy Bamber spent eight hours in the witness box.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: David1819 on November 10, 2019, 08:42:PM
How can Roger Wilkes write details about Jeremys testimony when no transcript of it exists?
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Steve_uk on November 10, 2019, 08:47:PM
How can Roger Wilkes write details about Jeremys testimony when no transcript of it exists?
I meant no official record. There would have been journalistic sources Wilkes used. By the way, don't forget James Richards testified that Jeremy told him: "I hate my f***ing parents." Not so far removed from the remark RB alleges.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: David1819 on November 10, 2019, 08:53:PM
I meant no official record. There would have been journalistic sources Wilkes used. By the way, don't forget James Richards testified that Jeremy told him: "I hate my f***ing parents." Not so far removed from the remark RB alleges.

(https://i0.wp.com/metro.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/ricky-gervais-laughing.gif?quality=90&strip=all&zoom=1&resize=540%2C359&ssl=1)
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Steve_uk on November 10, 2019, 08:57:PM
(https://i0.wp.com/metro.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/ricky-gervais-laughing.gif?quality=90&strip=all&zoom=1&resize=540%2C359&ssl=1)
David this meme does you a disservice. Members don't behave in this way. If you can find an official transcript then go ahead and post it.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: ILB on November 10, 2019, 09:00:PM
Ihow can we have witnessed court evidence and not Jeremy's??
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Steve_uk on November 10, 2019, 09:12:PM
Ihow can we have witnessed court evidence and not Jeremy's??
There would have been notetakers. I don't know what all the fuss is about.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: ILB on November 10, 2019, 09:20:PM
I meant no official record. There would have been journalistic sources Wilkes used. By the way, don't forget James Richards testified that Jeremy told him: "I hate my f***ing parents." Not so far removed from the remark RB alleges.
got to pick up on this for essence, in the grand scheme of things what does they saying " I fucking hate my parents amount to" I've said it on countless occasions in younger years in a strop as of millions of other early twenties, adolescents have....
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: ILB on November 10, 2019, 09:22:PM
There would have been notetakers. I don't know what all the fuss is about.
stereonographer??
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Caroline on November 11, 2019, 12:21:PM
How can Roger Wilkes write details about Jeremys testimony when no transcript of it exists?

There will have been a transcript. Doubt you’d be able to get a copy now but even if you could, it would cost a fortune.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Adam on November 11, 2019, 02:17:PM
David this meme does you a disservice. Members don't behave in this way. If you can find an official transcript then go ahead and post it.

I did recommend that a forum rule should be made that offensive & disrespecful pictures & signs should not be allowed. Not just to apply to  David, as Roch has done it as well. But to everyone.

The response was very negative which is why David still does it.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Adam on November 11, 2019, 02:29:PM
No there's no full trial transcript, but Roger Wilkes' book Blood Relations covers it and it's a good read.

Do you know if any of the other books do? Not that the other books would add much as Wilkes's overview is good.

Wilkes's book also gives a good report of the judges summing up.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Adam on November 11, 2019, 02:57:PM
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.homepage-link.to/justice/judgements/Bamber/index.html&ved=2ahUKEwjxxrHbtOLlAhXPVsAKHTDRAskQFjAAegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw3_he1NUdt-LIv3JGVUZ6T9

One of the best documents available online is the 2002 appeal transcript.

It has Jeremy's reasons why he wanted his conviction overturned. And the reasons why it wasn't.

There are some documents on the 2012 CCRC application and why it failed. 
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Adam on November 11, 2019, 02:58:PM
Things such as Nevill called the police are just to keep the campaign in the media.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: David1819 on November 11, 2019, 06:53:PM
got to pick up on this for essence, in the grand scheme of things what does they saying " I fucking hate my parents amount to" I've said it on countless occasions in younger years in a strop as of millions of other early twenties, adolescents have....

Yes, I have heard plenty of people of people say those words. None of them killed their parents and nor does it come close to saying such. Hence why I am laughing at Steve.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: David1819 on November 11, 2019, 06:57:PM
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.homepage-link.to/justice/judgements/Bamber/index.html&ved=2ahUKEwjxxrHbtOLlAhXPVsAKHTDRAskQFjAAegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw3_he1NUdt-LIv3JGVUZ6T9

One of the best documents available online is the 2002 appeal transcript.

It has Jeremy's reasons why he wanted his conviction overturned. And the reasons why it wasn't.


The full appeal hearing can be found here.

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,4276.msg174390.html#msg174390 (http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,4276.msg174390.html#msg174390)
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Jane on November 11, 2019, 07:06:PM
Yes, I have heard plenty of people of people say those words. None of them killed their parents and nor does it come close to saying such. Hence why I am laughing at Steve.


You surely can't be saying that, because none of those known to you, who've claimed to hate their f'ing parents but haven't gone on to kill them, it's not possible for such to happen? I think Jeremy's reasons for so doing probably went very much deeper that those who made the claim because their parents insisted on them being home at a certain time, or wouldn't let them take the car.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: ILB on November 11, 2019, 08:05:PM

You surely can't be saying that, because none of those known to you, who've claimed to hate their f'ing parents but haven't gone on to kill them, it's not possible for such to happen? I think Jeremy's reasons for so doing probably went very much deeper that those who made the claim because their parents insisted on them being home at a certain time, or wouldn't let them take the car.
this Richards guy didn't even hardly know Jeremy bamber. It's laughable this was allowed to be admitted. It's predicual. Remember under the circumstances, should a throwaway remark was interpreted as being sinister
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Jane on November 11, 2019, 08:14:PM
this Richards guy didn't even hardly know Jeremy bamber. It's laughable this was allowed to be admitted. It's predicual. Remember under the circumstances, should a throwaway remark was interpreted as being sinister


Can you provide use with how you know what "this Richards guy's" relationship with Jeremy was? I don't think we can remark on the words without hearing their intonation and seeing the expression on the speaker's face when they said them. Richards was there.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Steve_uk on November 12, 2019, 06:41:PM
Do you know if any of the other books do? Not that the other books would add much as Wilkes's overview is good.

Wilkes's book also gives a good report of the judges summing up.
No not really. Carol Ann Lee's book has four chapters on the case (40-43) and at least has an index at the back, unlike Blood Relations. Clare Powell's book has two chapters devoted to the trial, one entitled In The Dock followed by Actor or Actress? a reference to whether you believed Jeremy or Julie. Scott Lomax is the one book entirely skewed in favour of Jeremy and will have you jumping through so many hoops to make him innocent you may become dizzy.

There's more on egap1's thread on Murder/suicide at White House Farm if I can locate it here.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Adam on November 12, 2019, 06:47:PM
No not really. Carol Ann Lee's book has four chapters on the case (40-43) and at least has an index at the back, unlike Blood Relations. Clare Powell's book has two chapters devoted to the trial, one entitled In The Dock followed by Actor or Actress? a reference to whether you believed Jeremy or Julie. Scott Lomax is the one book entirely skewed in favour of Jeremy and will have you jumping through so many hoops to make him innocent you may become dizzy.

There's more on egap1's thread on Murder/suicide at White House Farm if I can locate it here.

Did CAL's book say anything interesting & new regarding what was said at trial? New as in you didn't know.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Steve_uk on November 12, 2019, 07:04:PM
Did CAL's book say anything interesting & new regarding what was said at trial? New as in you didn't know.
No not really. Jeremy comes across as a creep, immaculately dressed, keeping his composure, letters to Anji Greaves and Brett Collins where butter wouldn't melt. Maurice Drake's assertion in 2002 that he had kept an open mind throughout the trial until it dawned on him Julie was telling the truth..
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Adam on November 12, 2019, 07:12:PM
No not really. Jeremy comes across as a creep, immaculately dressed, keeping his composure, letters to Anji Greaves and Brett Collins where butter wouldn't melt. Maurice Drake's assertion in 2002 that he had kept an open mind throughout the trial until it dawned on him Julie was telling the truth..

Yes there is no possibility of Julie going through all that, if none of it was true.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Steve_uk on November 12, 2019, 07:19:PM
this Richards guy didn't even hardly know Jeremy bamber. It's laughable this was allowed to be admitted. It's predicual. Remember under the circumstances, should a throwaway remark was interpreted as being sinister
What about the remark he made to Michael Deckers about the farm burning down in 1984: should that be kept under wraps too?
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: ILB on November 12, 2019, 08:33:PM

Can you provide use with how you know what "this Richards guy's" relationship with Jeremy was? I don't think we can remark on the words without hearing their intonation and seeing the expression on the speaker's face when they said them. Richards was there.
can you prove they were firm friends other than a fleeting glance? It appears they met briefly at a social gathering, hardly in Bambers inner circle was he...
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: ILB on November 12, 2019, 08:34:PM
What about the remark he made to Michael Deckers about the farm burning down in 1984: should that be kept under wraps too?
what's the relevance? Please elaborate further
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Jane on November 12, 2019, 08:35:PM
can you prove they were firm friends other than a fleeting glance? It appears they met briefly at a social gathering, hardly in Bambers inner circle was he...


I don't need to prove anything. You're the one making claims. Prove them.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Steve_uk on November 12, 2019, 08:43:PM
what's the relevance? Please elaborate further
It ties in with Julie's evidence that Jeremy's initial plan was the burn down the Farm and spiking Nevill's nightcap.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: lookout on November 13, 2019, 10:30:PM
That was JM's word against JB's. Not a fair outcome. Then again neither was it a fair trial which contained a heck of a lot of " he saids " .
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: lookout on November 15, 2019, 11:14:AM
In the 34 years that Jeremy has been in umpteen different prisons have any of the inmates at any time ever accused him of being a psychopath or even a paranoid schizophrenic ? These prisoners are all he has known over the years and them him yet it's never been reported once that there's anything mentally disturbing about his behaviour and I would say that they're all the best judges when it comes to an inmate being mad, vicious, uncontrollable, unbalanced,  aggressive,  dangerous,  angry outbursts, mental and all the other traits of a psychopath.
Neither was he any of those traits before being incarcerated.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Caroline on November 15, 2019, 11:36:AM
In the 34 years that Jeremy has been in umpteen different prisons have any of the inmates at any time ever accused him of being a psychopath or even a paranoid schizophrenic ? These prisoners are all he has known over the years and them him yet it's never been reported once that there's anything mentally disturbing about his behaviour and I would say that they're all the best judges when it comes to an inmate being mad, vicious, uncontrollable, unbalanced,  aggressive,  dangerous,  angry outbursts, mental and all the other traits of a psychopath.
Neither was he any of those traits before being incarcerated.

No one has even said he's a paranoid schizophrenic - which is far removed from being a psychopath. If Bamber killed his family, he most definitely is a psychopath. I'm am sure there are many prisoners who have met Bamber - who agree.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: lookout on November 15, 2019, 11:51:AM
No one has even said he's a paranoid schizophrenic - which is far removed from being a psychopath. If Bamber killed his family, he most definitely is a psychopath. I'm am sure there are many prisoners who have met Bamber - who agree.




Not a psychopath. We'd have heard within this 34 years whether JB had shown signs of aggressive behaviour, particularly as he's getting older and I expect, more frustrated at the length of time he's been there .
There are far more psychopaths walking the streets, knife criminals who show no remorse-----how many ??
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: guest7363 on November 15, 2019, 12:08:PM



Not a psychopath. We'd have heard within this 34 years whether JB had shown signs of aggressive behaviour, particularly as he's getting older and I expect, more frustrated at the length of time he's been there .
There are far more psychopaths walking the streets, knife criminals who show no remorse-----how many ??
Trouble is you don’t sometimes know who is a psychopath, not all psychopaths are aggressive, you don’t have to be aggressive to be a killer, The most dangerous psychopaths learn and mimic normal behaviours so well they become virtually undetectable .
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Caroline on November 15, 2019, 01:01:PM



Not a psychopath. We'd have heard within this 34 years whether JB had shown signs of aggressive behaviour, particularly as he's getting older and I expect, more frustrated at the length of time he's been there .
There are far more psychopaths walking the streets, knife criminals who show no remorse-----how many ??

Why would we have heard? The test used for diagnosis isn’t the best. Perhaps he should agree to a brain scan - if he’s not a psychopath, it could only work in his favour.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: guest7363 on November 15, 2019, 01:27:PM
Why would we have heard? The test used for diagnosis isn’t the best. Perhaps he should agree to a brain scan - if he’s not a psychopath, it could only work in his favour.
The psychopathic brain is fundamentally different than regular brains. In the brain, the amygdala controls our emotional responses — but it doesn’t function properly in the psychopath’s brain. Not only does this amputate the ability to experience empathy, but it also means that the psychopath is a gifted liar. The usual “tells” of lying, such as involuntary twitches or increased an heart rate, doesn't apply for psychopaths. As a result, they can often pass polygraph tests.
 ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: lookout on November 15, 2019, 01:58:PM
Trouble is you don’t sometimes know who is a psychopath, not all psychopaths are aggressive, you don’t have to be aggressive to be a killer, The most dangerous psychopaths learn and mimic normal behaviours so well they become virtually undetectable .


 

JB showed no aggression before prison but Sheila had always been hot-headed and unpredictable. Why do you think Colin divorced her ?
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Caroline on November 15, 2019, 02:01:PM

 

JB showed no aggression before prison but Sheila had always been hot-headed and unpredictable. Why do you think Colin divorced her ?

Not because she was violent. It’s amazing how you know so much about the mechanics of this family, having never met them.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: lookout on November 15, 2019, 02:08:PM
Not because she was violent. It’s amazing how you know so much about the mechanics of this family, having never met them.





Perhaps I know a bit more of life / families than you do ?
 Bit of a weak remark  on your behalf don't you think ?
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: guest7363 on November 15, 2019, 02:09:PM

 

JB showed no aggression before prison but Sheila had always been hot-headed and unpredictable. Why do you think Colin divorced her ?
Did Colin divorce Sheila or did Sheila divorce Colin?  When the twins were 6 months old, Sheila split up with Colin according to Jeremy?  Then after the mandatory two years they divorced.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: lookout on November 15, 2019, 02:13:PM
Did Colin divorce Sheila or did Sheila divorce Colin?  When the twins were 6 months old, Sheila split up with Colin according to Jeremy?  Then after the mandatory two years they divorced.




Well it obviously wasn't Sheila who'd wanted a reconciliation whereas Colin hadn't. The answer is there somewhere.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: guest7363 on November 15, 2019, 02:20:PM



Well it obviously wasn't Sheila who'd wanted a reconciliation whereas Colin hadn't. The answer is there somewhere.
Oh I never looked at it like that
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: lookout on November 15, 2019, 02:20:PM
Sheila had a lot on her plate to think about that night-----Colin's overall care of the twins. Another woman in the equation having more access to the twins than their own mother. The talk of fostering to give Sheila a break. Convalescence offered to Sheila away from her beloved boys. Colin taking the boys on holiday to his sister with his new-found girlfriend.
Sheila's existing illness which prevented anything but a normal life for her. How do you think that Sheila would have felt with all this going on ?
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Jane on November 15, 2019, 03:55:PM




Perhaps I know a bit more of life / families than you do ?
 Bit of a weak remark  on your behalf don't you think ?


Brazen self aggrandizement on yours.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: lookout on November 15, 2019, 04:06:PM

Brazen self aggrandizement on yours.




Not at all---just awareness !!
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Jane on November 15, 2019, 04:30:PM



Not at all---just awareness !!


And what a skewed awareness it is! From the character assessments you've applied to the family, even their closest friends and family wouldn't recognize them.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: lookout on November 15, 2019, 05:12:PM

And what a skewed awareness it is! From the character assessments you've applied to the family, even their closest friends and family wouldn't recognize them.




What am I supposed to have said that you call skewed ?
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Caroline on November 15, 2019, 06:24:PM




Perhaps I know a bit more of life / families than you do ?
 Bit of a weak remark  on your behalf don't you think ?

From what you have posted, I'd say you know every little a presume a lot.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Caroline on November 15, 2019, 06:26:PM



Well it obviously wasn't Sheila who'd wanted a reconciliation whereas Colin hadn't. The answer is there somewhere.

You're right, it wasn't Sheila, they have been divorced a long time Lookout!
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Caroline on November 15, 2019, 06:27:PM



What am I supposed to have said that you call skewed ?

Everything. You try to speak for people you have had no interaction with.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: lookout on November 15, 2019, 07:09:PM
Everything. You try to speak for people you have had no interaction with.





You mean like the relatives who spoke about Sheila and Jeremy and who also had little interaction with them but still wrote about them as though they'd been bosom buddies ??

Anyway, it's a gift I have-----telepathy !
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Jane on November 15, 2019, 07:13:PM




You mean like the relatives who spoke about Sheila and Jeremy and who also had little interaction with them but still wrote about them as though they'd been bosom buddies ??

Anyway, it's a gift I have-----telepathy !


At least they KNEW them, Lookout. That qualifies them to know them better than the make believe stuff you come out with. I hadn't realized you'd taken up communicating with the dead.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: lookout on November 15, 2019, 07:28:PM

At least they KNEW them, Lookout. That qualifies them to know them better than the make believe stuff you come out with. I hadn't realized you'd taken up communicating with the dead.





The relatives didn't know them, least of all Sheila. I only communicate with the living, the dead from the neck up is your department.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Caroline on November 15, 2019, 07:30:PM




You mean like the relatives who spoke about Sheila and Jeremy and who also had little interaction with them but still wrote about them as though they'd been bosom buddies ??

Anyway, it's a gift I have-----telepathy !

No I don't mean like the relatives, I mean someone making assumptions.

It's really not a gift Lookout.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Caroline on November 15, 2019, 07:32:PM




The relatives didn't know them, least of all Sheila. I only communicate with the living, the dead from the neck up is your department.

You don't know anything about the family or what they did or didn't know.

So I guess you don't talk to yourself then?  ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Jane on November 15, 2019, 07:59:PM




The relatives didn't know them, least of all Sheila. I only communicate with the living, the dead from the neck up is your department.


And you think you know a dead woman better than they knew a live one. How bloody arrogant. No wonder you don't understand empathy. It's not something you're rich in.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Steve_uk on November 15, 2019, 08:23:PM
Sheila had a lot on her plate to think about that night-----Colin's overall care of the twins. Another woman in the equation having more access to the twins than their own mother. The talk of fostering to give Sheila a break. Convalescence offered to Sheila away from her beloved boys. Colin taking the boys on holiday to his sister with his new-found girlfriend.
Sheila's existing illness which prevented anything but a normal life for her. How do you think that Sheila would have felt with all this going on ?
To be fair to lookout there's not much I disagree with here. Sheila was up and down and when she was down she was in a parlous state. But she wasn't really thinking things through those last few days, the prescribed medication's side-effects taking their toll, which is why Jeremy saw his chance and called this the perfect crime.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: lookout on November 15, 2019, 08:38:PM
Dr Ferguson concluded his findings in his statement by saying that Sheila would have been in a  disturbed psychotic state at the time of the tragedies.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Steve_uk on November 15, 2019, 08:41:PM
Dr Ferguson concluded his findings in his statement by saying that Sheila would have been in a  disturbed psychotic state at the time of the tragedies.
No he said she would have reacted strongly had her children been forcibly removed from her, which simply wasn't the case.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Jane on November 15, 2019, 08:44:PM
To be fair to lookout there's not much I disagree with here. Sheila was up and down and when she was down she was in a parlous state. But she wasn't really thinking things through those last few days, the prescribed medication's side-effects taking their toll, which is why Jeremy saw his chance and called this the perfect crime.


Except that Lookout is stretching them for her own advantage. Let's just have another look at it. She may not have liked that Colin had overall care of the twins but she had few alternatives. As for Heather? She'd been part of the children's lives for some time. The twins had always had another care-giver in their lives. It was nothing new. She probably wasn't too thrilled with the thought of being packed off to "God's waiting-room" but no one could force her if she chose not to go. Okay, so Colin was taking the boys to his sister's with a woman who was already part of their lives.

 Her meds were making her lethargic and her depression had robbed her of mental energy. It panned out into the perfect time for Jeremy to put his plan into action. He'd probably never get another chance like it.

Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: lookout on November 15, 2019, 08:56:PM
" In hindsight I believe SC would have relapsed into an acute psychotic state having beliefs or delusions about good and evil and paranoia involving her mother. She is likely to have been in a disturbed psychotic state at the time of the tragedy.
SC was a difficult patient and failed to take her medication and missed appointments ".

 August 2012 From Dr Ferguson's statements.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Steve_uk on November 15, 2019, 09:07:PM

Except that Lookout is stretching them for her own advantage. Let's just have another look at it. She may not have liked that Colin had overall care of the twins but she had few alternatives. As for Heather? She'd been part of the children's lives for some time. The twins had always had another care-giver in their lives. It was nothing new. She probably wasn't too thrilled with the thought of being packed off to "God's waiting-room" but no one could force her if she chose not to go. Okay, so Colin was taking the boys to his sister's with a woman who was already part of their lives.

 Her meds were making her lethargic and her depression had robbed her of mental energy. It panned out into the perfect time for Jeremy to put his plan into action. He'd probably never get another chance like it.
Do you think there was a future for Sheila Jane? Her mother had been in the process of drawing up an annual allowance for her to be paid quarterly under the auspices of Basil Cock. I'm sure the twins would have supported her emotionally as they grew older but I do wonder if she had lived and following Nevill's death she might have sunk back into a depression akin to that of Mary Parkinson. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/12/12/mary-parkinson-troubled-elder-daughter-tory-grandee-cecil-parkinson/
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Steve_uk on November 15, 2019, 09:09:PM
" In hindsight I believe SC would have relapsed into an acute psychotic state having beliefs or delusions about good and evil and paranoia involving her mother. She is likely to have been in a disturbed psychotic state at the time of the tragedy.
SC was a difficult patient and failed to take her medication and missed appointments ".

 August 2012 From Dr Ferguson's statements.
Which statement is this from lookout and in what context?
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Jane on November 15, 2019, 09:10:PM
" In hindsight I believe SC would have relapsed into an acute psychotic state having beliefs or delusions about good and evil and paranoia involving her mother. She is likely to have been in a disturbed psychotic state at the time of the tragedy.
SC was a difficult patient and failed to take her medication and missed appointments ".

 August 2012 From Dr Ferguson's statements.


He also says, time and time again, that Sheila NEVER showed signs of violence or aggression.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Jane on November 15, 2019, 09:13:PM
Which statement is this from lookout and in what context?



She's cherry-picked the quotes, Steve. The above follows on from him having learned Sheila was responsible for the murders, and explaining what would have happened had that been the case. Not once does he concur that she'd done it.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Caroline on November 15, 2019, 09:16:PM
" In hindsight I believe SC would have relapsed into an acute psychotic state having beliefs or delusions about good and evil and paranoia involving her mother. She is likely to have been in a disturbed psychotic state at the time of the tragedy.
SC was a difficult patient and failed to take her medication and missed appointments ".

 August 2012 From Dr Ferguson's statements.

No she wouldn't - she was on medication - via injection. She was found to have a moderate dose left in her system even though her injection was due on 8th August.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Jane on November 15, 2019, 09:21:PM
Do you think there was a future for Sheila Jane? Her mother had been in the process of drawing up an annual allowance for her to be paid quarterly under the auspices of Basil Cock. I'm sure the twins would have supported her emotionally as they grew older but I do wonder if she had lived and following Nevill's death she might have sunk back into a depression akin to that of Mary Parkinson. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/12/12/mary-parkinson-troubled-elder-daughter-tory-grandee-cecil-parkinson/


Truly, Steve, I don't see a happy and settled future for her as she was. I'm not wholly in favour of psychiatric on it's own and I'm totally convinced that she'd have benefited from spending some time with a counselor who'd have given her the time and space to talk through her troubled childhood, grieve for her lost babies and come to terms with her separation from, and ongoing dependency, on Colin.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Kaldin on November 15, 2019, 09:26:PM
No he said she would have reacted strongly had her children been forcibly removed from her, which simply wasn't the case.

Hadn't the children already been removed from her since her breakdown in March that year?
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Caroline on November 15, 2019, 09:29:PM
Hadn't the children already been removed from her since her breakdown in March that year?

No forcibly and she still saw them.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: lookout on November 15, 2019, 09:36:PM
No she wouldn't - she was on medication - via injection. She was found to have a moderate dose left in her system even though her injection was due on 8th August.





Patti copied Dr Ferguson's statements on the 2012 thread--- " Did Sheila Suffer an Attachment Disorder Resulting in Affectionless Psycopathy " August 2012.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Kaldin on November 15, 2019, 09:54:PM
No forcibly and she still saw them.

I presume she didn't have any say in them living with Colin though.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Jane on November 15, 2019, 09:57:PM




Patti copied Dr Ferguson's statements on the 2012 thread--- " Did Sheila Suffer an Attachment Disorder Resulting in Affectionless Psycopathy " August 2012.


That sounds very much like it could be applied to Jeremy.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: lookout on November 15, 2019, 09:57:PM
I think Colin had 95% care of them at that stage and was looking towards 100% care eventually with Sheila seeing them " as and when ".

Why 100% ??
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Caroline on November 15, 2019, 10:29:PM
I think Colin had 95% care of them at that stage and was looking towards 100% care eventually with Sheila seeing them " as and when ".

Why 100% ??

Because she was ill.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: lookout on November 15, 2019, 10:31:PM
Because she was ill.





Exacty !
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Caroline on November 15, 2019, 10:32:PM




Exacty !

Exactly what?
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: lookout on November 15, 2019, 10:39:PM
Exactly what?





Just exactly, that's all.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Caroline on November 15, 2019, 10:52:PM




Just exactly, that's all.

Ill and 'dangerous' are two very different things!
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: lookout on November 15, 2019, 10:55:PM
Ill and 'dangerous' are two very different things!






It depends where the illness is doesn't it ?
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Caroline on November 15, 2019, 10:57:PM





It depends where the illness is doesn't it ?

Not really, paranoid schizophrenics aren't all dangerous and even less so when medicated - like Sheila was. Colin had the twins to allow her to get well and on her feet - not because she was dangerous.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: lookout on November 16, 2019, 10:57:AM
Not really, paranoid schizophrenics aren't all dangerous and even less so when medicated - like Sheila was. Colin had the twins to allow her to get well and on her feet - not because she was dangerous.




Yet she became very delusional about the boys, or had you forgotten ?
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Kaldin on November 16, 2019, 11:01:AM



Yet she became very delusional about the boys, or had you forgotten ?

Yes she did. I'm surprised that wasn't taken more seriously really.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: lookout on November 16, 2019, 11:22:AM
Yes she did. I'm surprised that wasn't taken more seriously really.




To be perfectly honest, I think the " fallout " from such an illness back then was underestimated as nowadays those who suffer the same are well monitored because of the unpredictability of their actions.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Jane on November 16, 2019, 11:25:AM



Yet she became very delusional about the boys, or had you forgotten ?


Something you imply as being recent. She said nothing of note regarding the twins during her last stay in hospital. What you're referring to occurred during her first stay.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: lookout on November 16, 2019, 11:34:AM

Something you imply as being recent. She said nothing of note regarding the twins during her last stay in hospital. What you're referring to occurred during her first stay.





There's no getting away from it but the psychiatrist hadn't taken Sheila seriously enough. If someone told me that " they were afraid they would kill the children " I'd take it seriously, wouldn't you ? Especially from the point of view of a professional person ? Whenever it was said. The fact of the matter it was said at a mental health clinic for God's sake---which was all the more reason to be aware.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Caroline on November 16, 2019, 12:43:PM




There's no getting away from it but the psychiatrist hadn't taken Sheila seriously enough. If someone told me that " they were afraid they would kill the children " I'd take it seriously, wouldn't you ? Especially from the point of view of a professional person ? Whenever it was said. The fact of the matter it was said at a mental health clinic for God's sake---which was all the more reason to be aware.

Same as somone saying they plan to kill the family.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: lookout on November 16, 2019, 01:17:PM
Same as somone saying they plan to kill the family.





He wasn't in a mental home when he " allegedly " said it.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Kaldin on November 16, 2019, 01:22:PM




There's no getting away from it but the psychiatrist hadn't taken Sheila seriously enough. If someone told me that " they were afraid they would kill the children " I'd take it seriously, wouldn't you ? Especially from the point of view of a professional person ? Whenever it was said. The fact of the matter it was said at a mental health clinic for God's sake---which was all the more reason to be aware.

Yes I would, given that she was paranoid schizophrenic.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Jane on November 16, 2019, 01:24:PM




There's no getting away from it but the psychiatrist hadn't taken Sheila seriously enough. If someone told me that " they were afraid they would kill the children " I'd take it seriously, wouldn't you ? Especially from the point of view of a professional person ? Whenever it was said. The fact of the matter it was said at a mental health clinic for God's sake---which was all the more reason to be aware.

In which case, had the psychiatrist been that concerned, why were steps not taken to permanently remove the twins from her care? Sheila was ill when she made the claim that she was afraid she might harm them -NOT that she wanted to harm them- and then she got better. The next time she became ill, we can only believe that the illness took a different form because she said nothing to raise concern regarding her children. Those words -said during illness- surely can't be held against her forever?
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: lookout on November 16, 2019, 01:30:PM
There's one living near to me ( care in the community ) but fortunately gets regular visits by a health team.
It's a trial I believe after smashing up the previous place and is always quoting religion ! Imagine them being left to their own devices like Sheila was ?
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: guest7363 on November 16, 2019, 01:33:PM
There's one living near to me ( care in the community ) but fortunately gets regular visits by a health team.
It's a trial I believe after smashing up the previous place and is always quoting religion ! Imagine them being left to their own devices like Sheila was ?
Good grief Lookout, keep a distance.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: lookout on November 16, 2019, 01:39:PM
Good grief Lookout, keep a distance.




Don't worry RJ I do.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: guest7363 on November 16, 2019, 01:44:PM



Don't worry RJ I do.
I was in your beautiful city this year, we stopped at Chester and had the day in Liverpool, absolutely loved it, we did the open top bus ride (twice 😂😂) I believe in getting my monies worth. The  world netball finals were on as well.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Jane on November 16, 2019, 02:10:PM
There's one living near to me ( care in the community ) but fortunately gets regular visits by a health team.
It's a trial I believe after smashing up the previous place and is always quoting religion ! Imagine them being left to their own devices like Sheila was ?


Since when was Sheila -despite your claims about personal incidents concerning Colin- known to have smashed up anywhere, or quoted religion?
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: lookout on November 16, 2019, 02:55:PM
I was in your beautiful city this year, we stopped at Chester and had the day in Liverpool, absolutely loved it, we did the open top bus ride (twice 😂😂) I believe in getting my monies worth. The  world netball finals were on as well.





I wish I'd known. I could have had an excuse to shop in Chester. Liverpool is just over the water from where I am too. So glad you enjoyed your outings.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: lookout on November 16, 2019, 03:11:PM

Since when was Sheila -despite your claims about personal incidents concerning Colin- known to have smashed up anywhere, or quoted religion?




After Sheila's last hospital visit she had turned to religion to appease her mother. Her inference on good and evil had been evident.
There was the incident of her throwing pots/pans at Colin when they were married and also putting her hand through plate glass when JB took her to hospital. Punching walls while Freddie was at her apartment in Maida Vale. Left to her own devices and she could have done damage.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Caroline on November 16, 2019, 03:32:PM



After Sheila's last hospital visit she had turned to religion to appease her mother. Her inference on good and evil had been evident.
There was the incident of her throwing pots/pans at Colin when they were married and also putting her hand through plate glass when JB took her to hospital. Punching walls while Freddie was at her apartment in Maida Vale. Left to her own devices and she could have done damage.

Wow! Just WOW!  ::)
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Jane on November 16, 2019, 03:33:PM



After Sheila's last hospital visit she had turned to religion to appease her mother. Her inference on good and evil had been evident.
There was the incident of her throwing pots/pans at Colin when they were married and also putting her hand through plate glass when JB took her to hospital. Punching walls while Freddie was at her apartment in Maida Vale. Left to her own devices and she could have done damage.

Mmm. She said that she'd found region to please her mother. She appeared at peace with it.

You appear to have entirely put your own slant onto her behaviours. You seem to NEED her to be violent. Okay, there were domestic incidents -Colin claims to have started some- hitting the plate glass was, I imagine- out of frustration. She wasn't ill on THOSE occasions. However, when she punched the wall in Freddie's presence, she clearly WAS ill and it wouldn't have mattered whether he'd been there or not.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Caroline on November 16, 2019, 03:39:PM
Mmm. She said that she'd found region to please her mother. She appeared at peace with it.

You appear to have entirely put your own slant onto her behaviours. You seem to NEED her to be violent. Okay, there were domestic incidents -Colin claims to have started some- hitting the plate glass was, I imagine- out of frustration. She wasn't ill on THOSE occasions. However, when she punched the wall in Freddie's presence, she clearly WAS ill and it wouldn't have mattered whether he'd been there or not.

I've done that - not thinking of killing anyone anytime soon though  ;)
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: lookout on November 16, 2019, 03:41:PM
Mmm. She said that she'd found region to please her mother. She appeared at peace with it.

You appear to have entirely put your own slant onto her behaviours. You seem to NEED her to be violent. Okay, there were domestic incidents -Colin claims to have started some- hitting the plate glass was, I imagine- out of frustration. She wasn't ill on THOSE occasions. However, when she punched the wall in Freddie's presence, she clearly WAS ill and it wouldn't have mattered whether he'd been there or not.




Not my slant, it's in Dr Ferguson's last letter about her condition.

So during a bout of frustration you'd put your hand through plate glass ?
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Jane on November 16, 2019, 03:42:PM
I've done that - not thinking of killing anyone anytime soon though  ;)


NONE of the incidents, claimed by Lookout, as being signs of violence, are out of the realms of what's considered normal.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Kaldin on November 16, 2019, 03:44:PM
She was a paranoid schizophrenic, which could mean she was unpredictable.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Jane on November 16, 2019, 03:47:PM



Not my slant, it's in Dr Ferguson's last letter about her condition.

So during a bout of frustration you'd put your hand through plate glass ?


But you conveniently leave out the pertinent part at the end in which he states that there had never been anything about her behaviour to suggest that she could become violent.

I have different coping mechanisms, or maybe it's simply that I've never been near plate glass at the right time?
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: lookout on November 16, 2019, 03:53:PM
I've done that - not thinking of killing anyone anytime soon though  ;)




Jeez, I'd be scared of hurting myself. I have an aversion to being injured in any way.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: lookout on November 16, 2019, 03:56:PM

But you conveniently leave out the pertinent part at the end in which he states that there had never been anything about her behaviour to suggest that she could become violent.

I have different coping mechanisms, or maybe it's simply that I've never been near plate glass at the right time?





Famous last words as spoken by a psychiatrist. I wonder how many of those letters he's written that see his patients committing murder ?

A deep breath is my coping mechanism and it works too.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Jane on November 16, 2019, 04:03:PM




Famous last words as spoken by a psychiatrist. I wonder how many of those letters he's written that see his patients committing murder ?

A deep breath is my coping mechanism and it works too.

 Probably fewer than you imagine but it will be impossible to get it 100% right without taking every child away from every mother who voices what Sheila did, and as we know, THAT can set up other problems.

Controlled breathing is always good for destressing.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: lookout on November 16, 2019, 04:19:PM
Probably fewer than you imagine but it will be impossible to get it 100% right without taking every child away from every mother who voices what Sheila did, and as we know, THAT can set up other problems.

Controlled breathing is always good for destressing.





Children are only taken from mothers in extreme circumstances anyway and providing that other members of the family can look after them it's less of a job for the authorities to deal with. I've known newborns going home to drug-addicted parents under the assurance that the parents attend classes/meetings on a regular basis that they will be weaned off their habit. Same as those who are alcohol dependant. If the parents miss/skip these support centres then the chances of losing the baby/children are high. 
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Jane on November 16, 2019, 05:41:PM




Children are only taken from mothers in extreme circumstances anyway and providing that other members of the family can look after them it's less of a job for the authorities to deal with. I've known newborns going home to drug-addicted parents under the assurance that the parents attend classes/meetings on a regular basis that they will be weaned off their habit. Same as those who are alcohol dependant. If the parents miss/skip these support centres then the chances of losing the baby/children are high.


Which is basically what was happening in Sheila's case. The twin's care was shared by day fostering, mother in law, Colin and her parents. What more, given that he never believed she could be violent, could Ferguson have done?
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Caroline on November 16, 2019, 05:51:PM




Children are only taken from mothers in extreme circumstances anyway and providing that other members of the family can look after them it's less of a job for the authorities to deal with. I've known newborns going home to drug-addicted parents under the assurance that the parents attend classes/meetings on a regular basis that they will be weaned off their habit. Same as those who are alcohol dependant. If the parents miss/skip these support centres then the chances of losing the baby/children are high.

They weren't taken from her! Colin and Sheila had SHARED custody but they lived with him so she could sort herself out.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Jane on November 16, 2019, 05:56:PM
They weren't taken from her! Colin and Sheila had SHARED custody but they lived with him so she could sort herself out.


Which must surely mean HAD Ferguson had any real concerns about her behaviour with the children, Colin would have been informed and the appropriate action would have been taken.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Caroline on November 16, 2019, 06:02:PM

Which must surely mean HAD Ferguson had any real concerns about her behaviour with the children, Colin would have been informed and the appropriate action would have been taken.

Clearly - but custody was shared. Also, the incidents that are being discussed ie. the hand through the window, happened years before the murders so are hardly relevant.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Jane on November 16, 2019, 06:06:PM
Clearly - but custody was shared. Also, the incidents that are being discussed ie. the hand through the window, happened years before the murders so are hardly relevant.


And she wasn't ill, either.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: lookout on November 16, 2019, 06:13:PM

And she wasn't ill, either.





I'm afraid I'd be at arms length from anyone who could put their hand through a window. It's definitely not normal.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Jane on November 16, 2019, 06:19:PM




I'm afraid I'd be at arms length from anyone who could put their hand through a window. It's definitely not normal.


How very judgemental. Are you saying you could be great friends with someone, find out they once put their hand through a window, and drop them? On the other hand, how do you relate to anyone? Whilst they may not have done it yet, it's not to say they won't in the future.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Kaldin on November 16, 2019, 06:24:PM
They weren't taken from her! Colin and Sheila had SHARED custody but they lived with him so she could sort herself out.

The first time it happened, yes, but did Colin actually want her to have joint custody after the breakdown of March 1985?
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Jane on November 16, 2019, 06:35:PM
The first time it happened, yes, but did Colin actually want her to have joint custody after the breakdown of March 1985?


I've never seen anything about him wanting sole custody, but it seems he had no reason for saying she was an unfit mother. Sure, the boys had accidents -children can be accidents looking for places to happen- but they were dealt with appropriately and no agency appeared concerned for their welfare.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Caroline on November 16, 2019, 06:40:PM
The first time it happened, yes, but did Colin actually want her to have joint custody after the breakdown of March 1985?

They had joint custody - but lived with Colin, whether he wanted it or not.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Kaldin on November 16, 2019, 06:46:PM

I've never seen anything about him wanting sole custody, but it seems he had no reason for saying she was an unfit mother. Sure, the boys had accidents -children can be accidents looking for places to happen- but they were dealt with appropriately and no agency appeared concerned for their welfare.

His letter to Nevill suggests that he wanted sole custody.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Caroline on November 16, 2019, 06:49:PM
His letter to Nevill suggests that he wanted sole custody.

But he didn't HAVE sole custody. Was that the letter he wrote in anger and never sent?
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Kaldin on November 16, 2019, 06:54:PM
But he didn't HAVE sole custody. Was that the letter he wrote in anger and never sent?

He didn't have it at the time, but it takes time to get sole custody.

Yes, it was that letter. I don't know why he didn't send it. Perhaps he felt it was a bit strong as it was quite harsh with regards to June.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Jane on November 16, 2019, 07:01:PM
His letter to Nevill suggests that he wanted sole custody.


I think that could have been more of a threat. From memory he didn't like what he believed June to be doing with them regarding praying.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Kaldin on November 16, 2019, 07:02:PM
There was a lot more to it than that. There was neglect, complaints from teachers, etc.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Jane on November 16, 2019, 07:05:PM
There was a lot more to it than that. There was neglect, complaints from teachers, etc.


He may have just been venting his feelings, and having written it, decided that like many letters/posts, it was best not sent. However, given what occurred, he may have had cause to rethink.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: ILB on November 16, 2019, 07:15:PM
Shelia was at breaking point come August 85 wasn't she. Whether you look at it from a guilty or innocent scenario
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: ILB on November 16, 2019, 07:19:PM
The August 2nd 1985 party, just sat there none respondant. Staring vacantly. Maybe she was sedated. But if she was sedated then why was she attending a party? How would she have the coordination, energy, to attend such an event. When we think of sedation, when we think of sedation, what comes to your head first off?
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Jane on November 16, 2019, 07:38:PM
The August 2nd 1985 party, just sat there none respondant. Staring vacantly. Maybe she was sedated. But if she was sedated then why was she attending a party? How would she have the coordination, energy, to attend such an event. When we think of sedation, when we think of sedation, what comes to your head first off?

"Sedated" has different meanings. We can be sedated prior to a procedure. It can mean anything from a muscle relaxant to an anesthetic. In the case of the mentally ill it's a mood stabilizer which numbs and too much of which can make the patient lethargic. The balance is all important.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Steve_uk on November 16, 2019, 08:34:PM
The August 2nd 1985 party, just sat there none respondant. Staring vacantly. Maybe she was sedated. But if she was sedated then why was she attending a party? How would she have the coordination, energy, to attend such an event. When we think of sedation, when we think of sedation, what comes to your head first off?
I suppose because she was the mother of Daniel and Nicholas, who probably requested her presence.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Steve_uk on November 16, 2019, 08:35:PM
His letter to Nevill suggests that he wanted sole custody.
The twins went to Moreshead Mansions at weekends and jealously guarded this right. I don't see Colin gainsaying this arrangement in any way.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Kaldin on November 16, 2019, 08:44:PM
The twins went to Moreshead Mansions at weekends and jealously guarded this right. I don't see Colin gainsaying this arrangement in any way.

He could have sole custody and she could still have access. He wanted full control over the twins.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Steve_uk on November 16, 2019, 09:06:PM
He could have sole custody and she could still have access. He wanted full control over the twins.
Kaldin Colin was the person who understood Sheila best. In no way would he have upset the equilibrium of the mother of his sons.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Kaldin on November 16, 2019, 09:29:PM
Kaldin Colin was the person who understood Sheila best. In no way would he have upset the equilibrium of the mother of his sons.

He would if he thought they were neglected. The boys were his priority.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: David1819 on November 16, 2019, 10:27:PM
Kaldin Colin was the person who understood Sheila best. In no way would he have upset the equilibrium of the mother of his sons.

Colin expressed his desire to have full custody of the twins in a letter he wrote to Nevil.

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,2762.msg91987.html#msg91987 (http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,2762.msg91987.html#msg91987)

The letter was never send but it does give us a snapshot of what was going on in Colins mind at the time.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: lookout on November 16, 2019, 10:50:PM
Pretty grim isn't it ?
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: David1819 on November 16, 2019, 10:51:PM
Pretty grim isn't it ?

Very much so.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: lookout on November 16, 2019, 10:55:PM
Very much so.




Was that ever read out to the jury ?
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: David1819 on November 16, 2019, 11:09:PM



Was that ever read out to the jury ?

No.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Caroline on November 17, 2019, 12:11:AM
Colin expressed his desire to have full custody of the twins in a letter he wrote to Nevil.

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,2762.msg91987.html#msg91987 (http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,2762.msg91987.html#msg91987)

The letter was never send but it does give us a snapshot of what was going on in Colins mind at the time.

He doesn't say anything about 'custody' he said 'full control over their well being' and that is what he had as Sheila was unable to make decisions for them. The letter highlights someone living in their own world who was unable to even get out of bed in the morning and totally consistent with other description of her as being 'like a zombie' - someone 'over sedated'.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Kaldin on November 17, 2019, 08:15:AM
He doesn't say anything about 'custody' he said 'full control over their well being' and that is what he had as Sheila was unable to make decisions for them. The letter highlights someone living in their own world who was unable to even get out of bed in the morning and totally consistent with other description of her as being 'like a zombie' - someone 'over sedated'.

He wouldn't have full control if he didn't have full custody though.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Jane on November 17, 2019, 08:36:AM



Was that ever read out to the jury ?


Why would it be? Sheila wasn't on trial and her competency as a mother wasn't the question.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Kaldin on November 17, 2019, 08:38:AM
It would have been relevant to the defence though.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: lookout on November 17, 2019, 09:07:AM
The defence were pretty hopeless weren't they ?
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: lookout on November 17, 2019, 09:15:AM
Has or had JB ever read or seen that letter by Colin ? Would he have known about it prior to the murders ?
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: guest7363 on November 17, 2019, 09:33:AM
He wouldn't have full control if he didn't have full custody though.
So don’t you think the whole idea of fostering was a lie then?  If Colin had full control Neville/June had no say whatsoever.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Kaldin on November 17, 2019, 09:41:AM
So don’t you think the whole idea of fostering was a lie then?  If Colin had full control Neville/June had no say whatsoever.

I get the impression that June and Nevill didn't really take Colin into account when they were discussing what to do about Sheila and the twins.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Caroline on November 17, 2019, 02:00:PM
He wouldn't have full control if he didn't have full custody though.

He did because they were living with him! Sheila had no inut because of her illness.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Kaldin on November 17, 2019, 02:05:PM
He did because they were living with him! Sheila had no inut because of her illness.

Yes, but legally she could have had them live with her too because of the joint custody.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Caroline on November 17, 2019, 02:07:PM
Yes, but legally she could have had them live with her too because of the joint custody.

Which is why he made it clear to Nevil that he wanted full control, for all of the reasons in his letter. At no time did he state he was going for LEGAL FULL CUSTODY. He obviously wrote the letter in anger which is why he didn't send it.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Kaldin on November 17, 2019, 02:19:PM
Which is why he made it clear to Nevil that he wanted full control, for all of the reasons in his letter. At no time did he state he was going for LEGAL FULL CUSTODY. He obviously wrote the letter in anger which is why he didn't send it.

It wasn't up to Nevill to give full control, and he couldn't control what Sheila did in her own home. Full control means full custody.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Caroline on November 17, 2019, 02:22:PM
It wasn't up to Nevill to give full control, and he couldn't control what Sheila did in her own home. Full control means full custody.

He wasn't asking Nevil's permission, he was telling him. Full control doesn't mean custody, custody means custody. Until someone posts something to prove he was going for full custody, then it remains hearsay and open to interpretation.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Kaldin on November 17, 2019, 02:24:PM
He wasn't asking Nevil's permission, he was telling him. Full control doesn't mean custody, custody means custody. Until someone posts something to prove he was going for full custody, then it remains hearsay and open to interpretation.

He didn't need to tell Nevill, he needed to tell Sheila. Nevill was nothing to do with the twins, other than being their grandfather. I didn't say he was going for full custody, I said that he wanted full custody.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Caroline on November 17, 2019, 02:26:PM
He didn't need to tell Nevill, he needed to tell Sheila. Nevill was nothing to do with the twins, other than being their grandfather. I didn't say he was going for full custody, I said that he wanted full custody.

I don't agree and he was telling Nevil as part of a letter that that included things about June. If he meant custody, he's have said so.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: lookout on November 17, 2019, 02:54:PM
Hadn't June been scurrying around looking for someone to look after the twins whilst they were at WHF ?
Nevill was working the fields and busy, June obviously didn't feel up to it as she also had Sheila who needed looking after as Sheila had proved incapable.
There would have been a meeting among women as was planned during Pam's phonecall which included Betty Howie ? Sadly nothing came to fruition.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Jane on November 17, 2019, 03:04:PM
Hadn't June been scurrying around looking for someone to look after the twins whilst they were at WHF ?
Nevill was working the fields and busy, June obviously didn't feel up to it as she also had Sheila who needed looking after as Sheila had proved incapable.
There would have been a meeting among women as was planned during Pam's phonecall which included Betty Howie ? Sadly nothing came to fruition.


I thought the call was to arrange for June and Sheila to visit Pam for lunch? I don't recall Pam saying anything about childcare or Betty Howie.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: lookout on November 17, 2019, 03:47:PM

I thought the call was to arrange for June and Sheila to visit Pam for lunch? I don't recall Pam saying anything about childcare or Betty Howie.





It was June who'd said to Pam that she wants to talk about Sheila as she was worried about her condition.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Steve_uk on November 17, 2019, 08:26:PM
He would if he thought they were neglected. The boys were his priority.
But he had control over them on weekdays. The twins cherished the weekend visits with their mother.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Kaldin on November 17, 2019, 08:32:PM
But he had control over them on weekdays. The twins cherished the weekend visits with their mother.

That's not really the point is it? Sheila was unstable, he didn't want her making any decisions about the twins. He wanted to have 100% say in how they were brought up.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Steve_uk on November 17, 2019, 08:40:PM
That's not really the point is it? Sheila was unstable, he didn't want her making any decisions about the twins. He wanted to have 100% say in how they were brought up.
He did have that de facto if not de jure. You're really not making any sense with this line of thought.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Kaldin on November 17, 2019, 08:46:PM
He did have that de facto if not de jure. You're really not making any sense with this line of thought.

Of course I am. They had joint custody, so Sheila could make decisions and demands at any time. If Colin had sole custody, she would only have access rights.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Steve_uk on November 17, 2019, 09:10:PM
Of course I am. They had joint custody, so Sheila could make decisions and demands at any time. If Colin had sole custody, she would only have access rights.
But Sheila never made the twins a weapon to be used against Colin. Read up on your facts.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Kaldin on November 17, 2019, 09:11:PM
But Sheila never made the twins a weapon to be used against Colin. Read up on your facts.

I'm not saying she did. Clearly, we do not understand each other, so let's just drop it.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Jane on November 17, 2019, 09:15:PM
I'm not saying she did. Clearly, we do not understand each other, so let's just drop it.



Interesting that in one day, you seem to have felt misunderstood by three different people. Perhaps it's not entirely with them that the fault lays.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: lookout on November 17, 2019, 09:19:PM
But Sheila never made the twins a weapon to be used against Colin. Read up on your facts.





Those mothers who've murdered their children were all divorced/ split-up or separated with issues regarding access.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Steve_uk on November 17, 2019, 09:20:PM




Those mothers who've murdered their children were all divorced/ split-up or separated with issues regarding access.
But lookout there was no issue regarding access! For goodness sake..
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: lookout on November 17, 2019, 09:25:PM
But lookout there was no issue regarding access! For goodness sake..





It was brewing Steve. Until it erupted.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Kaldin on November 17, 2019, 09:28:PM


Interesting that in one day, you seem to have felt misunderstood by three different people. Perhaps it's not entirely with them that the fault lays.

Please stop goading and discuss the subject. That's what this forum is for.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Jane on November 17, 2019, 09:38:PM
Please stop goading and discuss the subject. That's what this forum is for.


You'd do well to take your own advice, but you've been hell bent on insulting me at every opportunity today
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Kaldin on November 17, 2019, 09:40:PM

You'd do well to take your own advice, but you've been hell bent on insulting me at every opportunity today

Please stop goading. Save it for the playground.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Jane on November 17, 2019, 09:41:PM
Please stop goading. Save it for the playground.


I'm perfectly willing to do exactly what you do.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Kaldin on November 17, 2019, 09:42:PM

I'm perfectly willing to do exactly what you do.

You're clearly not at all interested in the subject matter, so you're not worth bothering with.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Jane on November 17, 2019, 09:53:PM
You're clearly not at all interested in the subject matter, so you're not worth bothering with.


And you don't goad? Like many others who've joined for a period and disappeared, I suspect your reason, as was theirs, is to cause trouble.  As you've already claimed not to like my style of writing and you think I'm not worth bothering about -is there anything else you wish to criticize?- I suggest you do what I suggested earlier and put me on ignore.
Title: Re: Jeremy Bamber trial examination
Post by: Caroline on November 18, 2019, 12:14:AM
Of course I am. They had joint custody, so Sheila could make decisions and demands at any time. If Colin had sole custody, she would only have access rights.

As already stated, he didn't mention custody, he didn't seek custody but he did have control.