Jeremy Bamber Forum
OTHER HIGH PROFILE CASES => Other high profile cases => Topic started by: Patti on April 25, 2013, 09:14:PM
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Having read Vic post yesterday I was intrigued by the case, so much so that I stopped up half the night and watched the film Fatal Vision starring Karl Maldon.
Here is the film if anyone is interested, but it is 3 hours long....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuyTIi30LXI
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Having read Vic post yesterday I was intrigued by the case, so much so that I stopped up half the night and watched the film Fatal Vision starring Karl Maldon.
Here is the film if anyone is interested, but it is 3 hours long....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuyTIi30LXI
Hi Patti it's an interesting case with some parallels to Jeremy Bamber as has been alluded to on Vic's thread. Couldn't these threads be merged?
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i watched a film about this case years ago.
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Having read Vic post yesterday I was intrigued by the case, so much so that I stopped up half the night and watched the film Fatal Vision starring Karl Maldon.
Here is the film if anyone is interested, but it is 3 hours long....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuyTIi30LXI
Karl Malden ;D
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its very similar to jeremy bamber there has been considerably dispute as to weather MacDonald did it or not.
and also the crime scene was totally mishandled.
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Hi Patti it's an interesting case with some parallels to Jeremy Bamber as has been alluded to on Vic's thread. Couldn't these threads be merged?
Hi Steve :)
We could, if everyone was in favour of it. The reason I placed it here was because the case is a fascinating one in its own rights. It's a case did he or didn't he.
Apparently he had approximately 14 wounds himself 13 of them superficial. The 14th one being very deep just missing his lung.
It was said at trial that he being a surgeon had caused these wounds himself and knew that the so called life threatening wound would not kill him because he knew exactly where to place the blade into his abdomen without being life threatening.
To be fair when I watched the film the seed of it being similar to Jeremy's case had already been planted in my mind. If I had watched it without Vic saying it had similarlarities then I am certain I would not have thought it similar at all. :) :) :) :) :)
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Karl Malden ;D
Hahahahaha I knew I had spelled it wrong...I'm a daft apeth. :) :) :) :)
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its very similar to jeremy bamber there has been considerably dispute as to weather MacDonald did it or not.
and also the crime scene was totally mishandled.
Hi nugs...it was the plant pot that caused the army to be suspicious. The table in the living room was upturned, but the plant pot on it had been placed in its correct position, upright! They called it his big mistake....but was it?
In his favour, the police could find no motive for McDonald killing his family. They said he did it a psychotic rage, yet he had never shown these tendencies before or after the murders. :-\ :) :) :)
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Morning Patti
I have been reading the case of Jeffrey McDonald and yet cannot seen anything similar to the Jeremy Bamber case other than both murders were carried out by somebody in a frenzied attack neither appeared to be cool calculating crimes. Is McDonald guilty I am not sure.
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Morning Patti
I have been reading the case of Jeffrey McDonald and yet cannot seen anything similar to the Jeremy Bamber case other than both murders were carried out by somebody in a frenzied attack neither appeared to be cool calculating crimes. Is McDonald guilty I am not sure.
Morning Susie :)
I'm not sure if he is guilty or not! If I was to go the evidence of where the blood was in the house, then I would say he was guilty. But, that evidence was only produced for a TV movie, if it is factual then I believe he could have done it...if that makes sense.. :) :) :) :)
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Hi Patti not seen the movie could not sit still for three hours ;D but it does seem strange after such a frenzied attack on his wife and children how he survived as was said he knew where to inflict the wounds but what was his motive.
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Hi Patti not seen the movie could not sit still for three hours ;D but it does seem strange after such a frenzied attack on his wife and children how he survived as was said he knew where to inflict the wounds but what was his motive.
I can't see that there was a motive. His wife had sent a letter to her mother a couple of weeks prior to the murders saying that this was the happiest time in her marriage.
Sadly she was pregnant at the time of the murders and McDonald claimed that 4 hippy type characters had entered his home and killed his family and may have thought he was dead, then left. The case resembled the Sharon Tate murder......
There was a girl that told the police that she was in the house at the time the killings took place and that they were all high on drugs. But 10 years later on when McDonald faced trial, she stated she was not there...and refused to be a witness, because she could not tell the jury about something that she could not recall because she wasn't there..... :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\
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there was no motive and as far as i casn see absolutely no evidence.
ether forensic or circumstancel
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This is a shorter version and does raise doubts I had long since considered a cut and dried case.http://youtu.be/Zlt4p2hGXzE
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He passed two lie detector tests and Helena Stoekley failed two of them.
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http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/notorious_murders/family/jmacdonald/26.html
http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/notorious_murders/family/jmacdonald/1.html
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I still don't know about whether he is guilty or not. There are still some unanswered questions. I mean why was there no blood where he was attacked? His wife, was 5 months pregnant and had been told that when she had the baby it could have been life threatening for her; yet her husband choose to be away in Russia at the time of the birth.
Yet, the first MP that drove to the house that night saw a woman with a floppy hat on. This woman was a drug addict and supposedly admitted to a least 8 people that she was there that night. The black guy with the army jacket on...Why has no one ever come forward to identify him in his distinctive jacket...I'm on the fence with this one.... :-\ :) :) :) :)
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Morning Patti
have been reading more into this case and I like you am not sure of his guilt or innocence. I read he passed two polygraph tests and as you maybe aware I put a certain amount of credence into this type of tests. A motive cannot be established and it would appear the crime scene was not preserved by the MP's and bodies were moved and forensic evidence not taken at the time of the crime. So I shall leave an open mind on this one.
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Morning Patti
have been reading more into this case and I like you am not sure of his guilt or innocence. I read he passed two polygraph tests and as you maybe aware I put a certain amount of credence into this type of tests. A motive cannot be established and it would appear the crime scene was not preserved by the MP's and bodies were moved and forensic evidence not taken at the time of the crime. So I shall leave an open mind on this one.
Morning Susie :)
I had forgotten he had passed those and in America they are admissible in court. I think the woman failed a polygraph...I can't remember her name. His father in law became suspicious after seeing him on a chat show..He then started to tape his phone calls and in one of them he tells his father in law that he and another friend had got one of the killers and killed him....that tape in on the site that Nugs posted.... :) :) :) :)
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Hi Patti the woman in question (can't spell her name ;D) failed two polygraph tests and the link Nugs put up is great it goes on forever and ever half way through reading it my delightful laptop decides to go back to Recent Posts :'(
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Is there a chance Helena and friends could have called round at some point,seeking Methadone? Too many anomalies for me to believe he is absolutely innocent. Kimberley was at her parents doorway when she died. Her blood and brain serum was found there. I have a hard time believing the hippies would then put her back in her bed. Also,Macdonald lied about the ice pick not belonging to the family.
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Hi Patti the woman in question (can't spell her name ;D) failed two polygraph tests and the link Nugs put up is great it goes on forever and ever half way through reading it my delightful laptop decides to go back to Recent Posts :'(
Schhhh I can't either... ;D
I think there is a long list on the right hand side so you might be able to click on one of those and it will bring you back to where you left off.... :) :) :) :)
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Is there a chance Helena and friends could have called round at some point,seeking Methadone? Too many anomalies for me to believe he is absolutely innocent. Kimberley was at her parents doorway when she died. Her blood and brain serum was found there. I have a hard time believing the hippies would then put her back in her bed. Also,Macdonald lied about the ice pick not belonging to the family.
Hi Tyler :)
I agree with you he did lie about the ice pick....in fact he was caught out in so many lies by his father in law Freddie.....The babysitter confirmed that they had an ice pick...
I know folk say there were no motive for the killings...but maybe he felt to tied down and with another child on the way and he taking on extra work for extra money was too much for him and he wanted to be free....Also,his wife was aware of his affairs and could have confronted him about it...very sad case... :'(
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Patti,I agree. He claimed he was happily married,but didn't disclose his affairs with other women. The army discovered that. I wondered if she had perhaps confronted him and he lost his temper. It is very sad,I agree x
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Morning tyler to loose your temper to that extent must mean he had some type of mental issues. He had not shown previous traits of this type of behaviour. Who knows suppose we will never know. I think men have affairs but still love their wives it is an ego issue with some of them :'(
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Patti,I agree. He claimed he was happily married,but didn't disclose his affairs with other women. The army discovered that. I wondered if she had perhaps confronted him and he lost his temper. It is very sad,I agree x
I saw an interview with one of her friends and she said Collette had broken down crying because she knew he was sleeping around again....It does not make him a killer though, but he wasn't going to admit to that was he...like you say the army found that out. :) :) :) :)
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Always the voice of reason Susan! x Maybe she threatened to leave him? He was overworked and possibly exhausted and fraught. He could possibly have been taking amphetamines. I used to use these when I was younger,and the comedown from them used to make me very irritable. People have committed murder but have been found to be sane.
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Hello tyler always the voice of good common sense x. I do not disagree with what you say but would he murder his children as well it takes some kind of deranged person to attack his own kids in that manner.It is a strange one the only concern I have he was not killed as well which I would have expected him to be. I think his behaviour after the murders was his worst downfall as was Jeremy Bambers. We do tend to judge a person on the way they conduct themselves but I really feel we should not do this and just accept that is the way they are and deal with the facts we have to hand.
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I think that the evidence points to him as being responsible x
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Hi tyler you could well be right I am only half way through the evidence thanks to my laptop having a mind of its own and me being a person with little or no patience I flit from one thing to another ;D ;D ;D
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maybe he wasnt killed becouse his attackers thought they already had killed him.
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maybe he wasnt killed becouse his attackers thought they already had killed him.
Maybe nugs! What does not ring true is the fact he had sustained a number of wounds to his chest one of those wounds caused a collapsed lung, all the other wounds were superficial and not one drop of blood from him in the position of where he claimed to have been attacked. There was one drop of blood in the hallway where he said he had passed out. He even took time to wash his hands before calling the police..his blood was found below the sink on the bathroom floor. :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\
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but how would he have manged to collapse his own lung. that dosent sound like an injury that's easy to self inflict.
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Hi Nugs I understand Jeffrey MacDonald was a Surgeon so he would know exactly where to inflict the wound without it being fatal.
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he couldn't know it wouldn't be fatal because he wouldn't know when he was going to be found and treated.
mind you if it was all done on the spur of the moment he not of thought of that.
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Has anyone been watching the new series?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Wilderness_of_Error_(TV_series) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Wilderness_of_Error_(TV_series))
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No is there a new video out there?
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No is there a new video out there?
A whole new 5 part series.
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Having done some research lately on this. I have concluded that Jeffrey MacDonald is guilty.
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Having done some research lately on this. I have concluded that Jeffrey MacDonald is guilty.
I agree.
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Has anyone been watching the new series?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Wilderness_of_Error_(TV_series) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Wilderness_of_Error_(TV_series))
David have you watched American Murder A family next door I thought it was shocking but really well done
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I agree.
What persuaded you Neil?
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David have you watched American Murder A family next door I thought it was shocking but really well done
I watched half of it. It was rather depressing. :-\
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What persuaded you Neil?
No single factor, but the totality of the evidence. I read into the case a few years ago and I think overall that the evidence is overwhelming. The evidence at trial about the holes in the pygamas was persuasive. Also MacDonald's inconsistent accounts and his abysmal performance on the Dick Cavett show persuaded me that he was lying. I believe he committed the crime in a rage when high on amphetamines. He has no chance of winning an appeal - the US system imposes a much higher hurdle for criminal appeals than the UK. He will never be released.
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No single factor, but the totality of the evidence. I read into the case a few years ago and I think overall that the evidence is overwhelming. The evidence at trial about the holes in the pygamas was persuasive. Also MacDonald's inconsistent accounts and his abysmal performance on the Dick Cavett show persuaded me that he was lying. I believe he committed the crime in a rage when high on amphetamines. He has no chance of winning an appeal - the US system imposes a much higher hurdle for criminal appeals than the UK. He will never be released.
The blood groupings also contradict his version of events. One of his daughters was killed in the main bedroom and her body was then carried and placed on her bed in her bedroom. There was non of Jeffrey MacDonalds blood in the living room where he claimed to have been attacked and stabbed. There was however his blood in the bathroom.
Also the Esquire magazine found in the living room -
“The investigators were struck by similarities between MacDonald’s account of murderous intruders and the Esquire magazine’s articles about the Manson murders and other cult-like activities. For example, the magazine contained many references to blonds, burning candles, and use of the words “acid” and “groovy.” In the Manson murders, the victims were mutilated and the word “PIG” was allegedly smeared on a wall in the victims’ blood. Those and other pertinent passages from Esquire were read into the record during MacDonald’s trial.”
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55pXxxRt70k (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55pXxxRt70k)
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The blood groupings also contradict his version of events. One of his daughters was killed in the main bedroom and her body was then carried and placed on her bed in her bedroom. There was non of Jeffrey MacDonalds blood in the living room where he claimed to have been attacked and stabbed. There was however his blood in the bathroom.
Also the Esquire magazine found in the living room -
“The investigators were struck by similarities between MacDonald’s account of murderous intruders and the Esquire magazine’s articles about the Manson murders and other cult-like activities. For example, the magazine contained many references to blonds, burning candles, and use of the words “acid” and “groovy.” In the Manson murders, the victims were mutilated and the word “PIG” was allegedly smeared on a wall in the victims’ blood. Those and other pertinent passages from Esquire were read into the record during MacDonald’s trial.”
Re the Manson Family killings, have you ever read Helter Skelter? One of the best books I ever read. I found the narrative gripping and the book is jam packed with images of the protagonists etc. Mind you, it's probably a very biased account, given that it was written by the prosecutor.
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Re the Manson Family killings, have you ever read Helter Skelter? One of the best books I ever read. I found the narrative gripping and the book is jam packed with images of the protagonists etc. Mind you, it's probably a very biased account, given that it was written by the prosecutor.
Without wishing to take the thread off-course, I would just mention that the defence attorney in that case was reportedly very good, notwithstanding that the defendants were convicted.
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Re the Manson Family killings, have you ever read Helter Skelter? One of the best books I ever read. I found the narrative gripping and the book is jam packed with images of the protagonists etc. Mind you, it's probably a very biased account, given that it was written by the prosecutor.
No I haven’t read it. I do plan on reading “fatal vision” the book about this case.
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No I haven’t read it. I do plan on reading “fatal vision” the book about this case.
Re Helter Skelter - I know it's a cliché but I couldn't put it down.
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Another interesting aspect of this case is that after a year in prison. His conviction was overturned on appeal. Jeffrey MacDonald was a free man for 18 months, until the supreme court overturned the appeal and his conviction was re-instated.
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There's at least one thread on this case already: http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,4236.0.html
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There's at least one thread on this case already: http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,4236.0.html
I have merged the threads.
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No single factor, but the totality of the evidence. I read into the case a few years ago and I think overall that the evidence is overwhelming. The evidence at trial about the holes in the pygamas was persuasive. Also MacDonald's inconsistent accounts and his abysmal performance on the Dick Cavett show persuaded me that he was lying. I believe he committed the crime in a rage when high on amphetamines. He has no chance of winning an appeal - the US system imposes a much higher hurdle for criminal appeals than the UK. He will never be released.
Im halfway through the book (Audible) Fatal Vision, must say it’s a fascinating case, like you said the Pyjamas top is quite compelling, the first thing that struck me is when he said “He pulled the knife out of his wife’s body” a trained Psychian wouldn’t have done that, pulling the knife out would cause more injuries and leaving the knife in helps stem blood flow, unless of Course you want to put your finger prints on it?
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Helena Stoeckleys claims are very similar to Julie Mugfords. In that her version contradicts the crime scene and she implicated people who could not have been there.
This is from MacDonalds 2017 appeal ruling.
“Much of MacDonald’s focus has been on self- incriminating statements that Stoeckley continued to make after the 1979 trial, up to her death in early 1983 from pneumonia and hepatitis-related cirrhosis of the liver. In some of those varying statements, Stoeckley implicated Allen Mazerolle, i.e., the cross- necklace-wearing Stoeckley associate depicted in MacDonald’s 1979 police sketch and named by the defense at trial as a likely perpetrator. Significantly, however, by the time the district court denied MacDonald’s first postconviction motion in 1985, it had been established that Mazerolle was in jail at the time of the murders and could not have been one of MacDonald’s alleged intruders. ”
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Helena Stoeckleys claims are very similar to Julie Mugfords. In that her version contradicts the crime scene and she implicated people who could not have been there.
This is from MacDonalds 2017 appeal ruling.
“Much of MacDonald’s focus has been on self- incriminating statements that Stoeckley continued to make after the 1979 trial, up to her death in early 1983 from pneumonia and hepatitis-related cirrhosis of the liver. In some of those varying statements, Stoeckley implicated Allen Mazerolle, i.e., the cross- necklace-wearing Stoeckley associate depicted in MacDonald’s 1979 police sketch and named by the defense at trial as a likely perpetrator. Significantly, however, by the time the district court denied MacDonald’s first postconviction motion in 1985, it had been established that Mazerolle was in jail at the time of the murders and could not have been one of MacDonald’s alleged intruders. ”
Have you seen this site.
http://www.thejeffreymacdonaldcase.com/html/parolehearing.html
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Have you seen this site.
http://www.thejeffreymacdonaldcase.com/html/parolehearing.html
Yeah, I have read a few documents from it.
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Yeah, I have read a few documents from it.
First I’ve heard today that he actually failed the lie detector test, it came out during his Law suit against Mcginniss who wrote Fatal Vision. Although McDonald won the Law suit £325,000 in damages, he only got £50,000 of this, he would have got much more if he hadn’t taken out the Law Suit, he forfeited his commission in books sales.
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1987-08-12-me-427-story.html
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First I’ve heard today that he actually failed the lie detector test, it came out during his Law suit against Mcginniss who wrote Fatal Vision. Although McDonald won the Law suit £325,000 in damages, he only got £50,000 of this, he would have got much more if he hadn’t taken out the Law Suit, he forfeited his commission in books sales.
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1987-08-12-me-427-story.html
If I remember correctly. MacDonald had also refused to take a polygraph pre his 1979 trial.
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If I remember correctly. MacDonald had also refused to take a polygraph pre his 1979 trial.
This is a good site.
He also refused to take the truth serum that was offered, this would help him recollect what happened, but he refused.
http://www.themacdonaldcase.com/html/mmt.html
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This is a good site.
He also refused to take the truth serum that was offered, this would help him recollect what happened, but he refused.
http://www.themacdonaldcase.com/html/mmt.html
He did agree to be questioned under hypnosis at some point and I think he managed that OK, but I do not attach much significance to that. He tried to hide the result of the polygraph which the defence arranged. I believe he stopped the test before it was completed so tried to argue there was not in fact a result.
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He did agree to be questioned under hypnosis at some point and I think he managed that OK, but I do not attach much significance to that. He tried to hide the result of the polygraph which the defence arranged. I believe he stopped the test before it was completed so tried to argue there was not in fact a result.
Yes you could be right NGB, he told him he had failed and he couldn’t be of help to him. McGinnis who wrote the book wanted access to Backster who conducted the test, but McDonald refused to sign a release for Backster to talk to him, who was sworn to secrecy because it was a private test took in Bernard Segal’s office in Philadelphia.